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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Top Belt for Fun
4393
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Posted - 2016.08.17 20:20:23 -
[31] - Quote
Cyclone Organic wrote:Actually It's HAM what I put on my Cerberus.
The damage application of rage looks pretty bad, but faction missiles look ok. It's got almost 45km range, which was the lower bound for what made faction torps work back in the day. It... might work? It's at least worth looking at. Try recording your mission completion times and comparing it amongst different ships.
Cyclone Organic wrote:Which means in the pure perspective of time efficiency, a CNR would do a better job If manipulated carefully?
Generally, I would expect so.
-Liang
I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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Kitty Bear
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Black Pearl Alliance
1565
|
Posted - 2016.08.18 07:52:22 -
[32] - Quote
Cyclone Organic wrote:One more question, I was wondering If HACs (such as Cerberus or Sacrilege) are good options for lvl 4 missions.
Though many people talking about the versatility of Tengu and HAC for PVE, I got confused by the EFT statistics of my Cerberus fitting.
Then why so many people are fond of HACs and Tengu? Are they really superior to BCs given this much lower DPS, especially when CNR could also do applicable damage to cruise class efficiently?
You can run L4's in all kinds of ships Battleships are best, but smaller ships can work too. With smaller ships you need to pay more attention to wave triggers and group agro More focused skills help too.
With the Tengu (or any other sub-BS ship) you are trading - Range for Speed & Manoeuvrability - Faster small NPC killing for Slower large NPC killing - Increased 'risk' for longer mission times
For me running L4's in a smaller ship was about getting out of the comfort zone They were easy in a BS A single mistake in an AF left you in a pod
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1370
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Posted - 2016.08.18 12:09:15 -
[33] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cyclone Organic wrote: It usually takes 10s for a cruise missile to hit the target from 105KM away, but yourself don't need to move a single step. So It doesn't make too much difference between cruise class ships and BCs in the perspective of time efficiency.
This is actually a great reason not to use a MJD cruise ship. Painter cycle time, counting volleys, and delayed damage. Ugh - it's just too much mental work to get efficient missioning out of a setup like that. I'd rather just face tank it and minimize missile travel time. -Liang
Liang dear, you don't need a painter on a CNR. I would suggest one guidance computer, which works at all ranges. And since the cruise missiles buff, they are not terrible anymore, even for pvp.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1663
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Posted - 2016.08.18 12:45:57 -
[34] - Quote
people who are unsure about HAM/torp range, there's rigs and modules that can counteract this yknow |
Cyclone Organic
Norsefire Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2016.08.18 15:06:30 -
[35] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cyclone Organic wrote:Actually It's HAM what I put on my Cerberus. The damage application of rage looks pretty bad, but faction missiles look ok. It's got almost 45km range, which was the lower bound for what made faction torps work back in the day. It... might work? It's at least worth looking at. Try recording your mission completion times and comparing it amongst different ships. -Liang
Well, that's why I posted this topic: I am not able to use any of these ships immediately but I was really confused. So I asked this question in hopes of that someone could have any idea or practice of this debate. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1370
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Posted - 2016.08.18 17:58:46 -
[36] - Quote
I am flying Caldari only for a decade now, I don't know anything.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Cyclone Organic
Norsefire Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2016.08.21 15:02:45 -
[37] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote: You can run L4's in all kinds of ships Battleships are best, but smaller ships can work too. With smaller ships you need to pay more attention to wave triggers and group agro More focused skills help too.
With the Tengu (or any other sub-BS ship) you are trading - Range for Speed & Manoeuvrability - Faster small NPC killing for Slower large NPC killing - Increased 'risk' for longer mission times
For me running L4's in a smaller ship was about getting out of the comfort zone They were easy in a BS A single mistake in an AF left you in a pod
Sorry for getting back to you so late.
I'd like to do a test and collect some data about mission running time and efficiency, for different mission contents with various ship classes. But unfortunately I don't have enough SP at this point. I guess one year is needed for me to use all these previous mentioned ships and modules If no other people post the report before I do. We will see. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
958
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Posted - 2016.08.21 15:41:51 -
[38] - Quote
Cyclone Organic wrote:Generally, I will say CNR with cruise missile is superior to Tengu and HACs, and even to Golem in some cases. Remove the cost as a consideration and there is no place in any mission in the game where a CNR is better than a Golem. A little bit of speed is the only advantage the CNR has over the Golem, even that is minimized by the 70% reduction of the MJD reactivation delay the Golem gets as a marauder bonus. In every other way you can measure there performance in missions the Golem is the better of the two ships.
Kamikaze jihawt wrote:I haven't tried it lately, but is it possible to fit that CNR with torps instead? Torps seem to melt face faster than cruises. Why would you use cruise missiles? Why indeed, better application against smaller targets and range both favor cruise missiles over torps. Yet the torps are better against the BC and BS NPC. So in the end the decision comes down to a personal choice and how you run missions. For most people that full clear the better application to the smaller targets decreases the time required to complete a mission pocket simply because in a average mission pocket there is likely to be 3 to 4 times as many small ships as there are the larger ones.
Kitty Bear wrote:For me running L4's in a smaller ship was about getting out of the comfort zone They were easy in a BS A single mistake in an AF left you in a pod So true and this is why I like running 4's in AF and Destroyer class ships it puts some of the fun and challenge back into them. Yes I know crap ISK/LP per hour but who cares about that. I have enough ISK to buy what I need and a good job to buy and sell plex if needed, this is a game and playing it is about having fun and the boring grind for max ISK/LP is not fun. |
Kitty Bear
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Black Pearl Alliance
1565
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Posted - 2016.08.22 14:27:27 -
[39] - Quote
Cyclone Organic wrote:Kitty Bear wrote: You can run L4's in all kinds of ships Battleships are best, but smaller ships can work too. With smaller ships you need to pay more attention to wave triggers and group agro More focused skills help too.
With the Tengu (or any other sub-BS ship) you are trading - Range for Speed & Manoeuvrability - Faster small NPC killing for Slower large NPC killing - Increased 'risk' for longer mission times
For me running L4's in a smaller ship was about getting out of the comfort zone They were easy in a BS A single mistake in an AF left you in a pod
Sorry for getting back to you so late. I'd like to do a test and collect some data about mission running time and efficiency, for different mission contents with various ship classes. But unfortunately I don't have enough SP at this point. I guess one year is needed for me to use all these previous mentioned ships and modules If no other people post the report before I do. We will see.
That's something I can't help you with. I never timed missions, as I was never concerned with $/hr rates.
All I can tell you is the general longest to fastest clearing times.
[slower] - Ishkur - Gila & Ishtar - Tengu - Dominix - Rattlesnake [faster]
and you've no doubt noticed the trend in my mission ship choices :D
Apart from some CN-BCU's I only used basic T2 fits Add more bling and you can generally clear sites a little faster, has it's risks though.
I also never blitzed missions, for which iirc the Machariel is the best choice. |
Voxinian
103
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Posted - 2016.09.06 13:24:40 -
[40] - Quote
Roci Nantes wrote:MTUs are easy to scan down. Mission jackers and gamkers use them to find you, easier. Having an alt do your salvage a room or so behind you, is how I prefer to do mine.
Or simply don't bother with all the (mostly) T1 junk and scrap metal. The time it takes to pick it all up you could have done an other mission and farmed more LPs. Loot BS wrecks during a mission and ignore the rest and move on to the next mission. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18013
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Posted - 2016.09.07 13:58:06 -
[41] - Quote
Voxinian wrote:Roci Nantes wrote:MTUs are easy to scan down. Mission jackers and gamkers use them to find you, easier. Having an alt do your salvage a room or so behind you, is how I prefer to do mine. Or simply don't bother with all the (mostly) T1 junk and scrap metal. The time it takes to pick it all up you could have done an other mission and farmed more LPs. Loot BS wrecks during a mission and ignore the rest and move on to the next mission.
There's a few missions where its worth it like Gone Berserk. And missions where your reward is faction tags, you might as well get the loot as well. But yeah mostly not even worth the time to come back in a hauler or noctis.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
823
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Posted - 2016.09.08 02:36:27 -
[42] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Liang dear, you don't need a painter on a CNR. I would suggest one guidance computer, which works at all ranges. And since the cruise missiles buff, they are not terrible anymore, even for pvp.
Paint I have found useful for the dual purpose of aiding drones for the small crap kills. Max skill t2 paint is around 38% sig radius, RF 41%. really helps the drones I find, but as always others mileage may vary.
My take is I just hate the small crap. Beside some oddball rat BS' (gurista BS' can run ECM as an example) e-war is usually on the small crap. I usually want them dead. Faster the better. Sometimes its better to let them close and paint assisted drone kill them. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18014
|
Posted - 2016.09.09 07:18:25 -
[43] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Cyclone Organic wrote: It usually takes 10s for a cruise missile to hit the target from 105KM away, but yourself don't need to move a single step. So It doesn't make too much difference between cruise class ships and BCs in the perspective of time efficiency.
This is actually a great reason not to use a MJD cruise ship. Painter cycle time, counting volleys, and delayed damage. Ugh - it's just too much mental work to get efficient missioning out of a setup like that. I'd rather just face tank it and minimize missile travel time. -Liang Liang dear, you don't need a painter on a CNR. I would suggest one guidance computer, which works at all ranges. And since the cruise missiles buff, they are not terrible anymore, even for pvp.
TPs don't stack with Rigors
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1403
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Posted - 2016.09.09 11:06:33 -
[44] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:elitatwo wrote:Liang dear, you don't need a painter on a CNR. I would suggest one guidance computer, which works at all ranges. And since the cruise missiles buff, they are not terrible anymore, even for pvp. Paint I have found useful for the dual purpose of aiding drones for the small crap kills. Max skill t2 paint is around 38% sig radius, RF 41%. really helps the drones I find, but as always others mileage may vary. My take is I just hate the small crap. Beside some oddball rat BS' (gurista BS' can run ECM as an example) e-war is usually on the small crap. I usually want them dead. Faster the better. Sometimes its better to let them close and paint assisted drone kill them.
Zan, if I may, since I started to pvp, my entire game changed over night. Not only went my entire focus on pvp fits, it even changed my pve.
When I do missions now, I fly my ships so very different from how I used to emphasis on flying.
We can discuss about a target painter versus guidance computer all day but I think this is a very moot point to discuss over. I can give out all of my fits for everyone to see but they won't do you any good because I won't be at the helm.
Only the helms(wo)man makes a fit, not the fit or the ship.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
983
|
Posted - 2016.09.09 14:42:57 -
[45] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Only the helms(wo)man makes a fit, not the fit or the ship. Not true. Ship, fit, tactics and SP all merge together to form the whole and that is true in PvP as well as PvE. As you note here even if the players have the exact same skills trained and the same ship / fit personal preferences in how to fly the mission will change the effectiveness of the ship. Likewise even if both players fly the missions the same way the ship / fit and it's performance may be adversely affected by SP or more correctly a lack of SP in a specific area.
I do want to thank you for posting up one of the most clearly stated reasons why there is no such thing as "the best" mission ship. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
824
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Posted - 2016.09.10 02:09:30 -
[46] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Zan Shiro wrote:elitatwo wrote:Liang dear, you don't need a painter on a CNR. I would suggest one guidance computer, which works at all ranges. And since the cruise missiles buff, they are not terrible anymore, even for pvp. Paint I have found useful for the dual purpose of aiding drones for the small crap kills. Max skill t2 paint is around 38% sig radius, RF 41%. really helps the drones I find, but as always others mileage may vary. My take is I just hate the small crap. Beside some oddball rat BS' (gurista BS' can run ECM as an example) e-war is usually on the small crap. I usually want them dead. Faster the better. Sometimes its better to let them close and paint assisted drone kill them. Zan, if I may, since I started to pvp, my entire game changed over night. Not only went my entire focus on pvp fits, it even changed my pve. When I do missions now, I fly my ships so very different from how I used to emphasis on flying. We can discuss about a target painter versus guidance computer all day but I think this is a very moot point to discuss over. I can give out all of my fits for everyone to see but they won't do you any good because I won't be at the helm. Only the helms(wo)man makes a fit, not the fit or the ship.
Fair enough.
But pvp side lets not forget paint helps others as well. That we could also have discussions over too though.
Since paint after 3 stacks to uselessness there enters coordinating your people to not have more than 3 paints on a target. Herding cats come to mind there I will grant. Me I always tried to help my brothers or sisters in arms in a phoenix...they never turn down paint party support lol.
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Cyclone Organic
Norsefire Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2016.09.10 02:21:34 -
[47] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:
Fair enough.
But pvp side lets not forget paint helps others as well. That we could also have discussions over too though.
Since paint after 3 stacks to uselessness there enters coordinating your people to not have more than 3 paints on a target. Herding cats come to mind there I will grant. Me I always tried to help my brothers or sisters in arms in a phoenix...they never turn down paint party support lol.
You guys are making a good discussion! From my personal viewpoint, painters or guidance computers, the choice depends on our strategy and preference of fighting. Currently I have a T2 painter on my Cerberus so that my HAM can deal applicable damage to frigates--- and this also saves me two rig slots for cap control circuits. Another reason I do this is to avoid stack penalty. I already have one missile enhancer in low slot. For the same reason, I will go a totally different way on my CNR.
But the key concept remains the same: be adaptive to various settings, be practical when making budget. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
824
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:08:41 -
[48] - Quote
Cyclone Organic wrote:
But the key concept remains the same: be adaptive to various settings, be practical when making budget.
Wise way to approach this. All I'd recommend is try out all the options debated and see what works for you. And if drone skills lacking if you go MGC route....work on that. Relying on pure drone skill no assist they will be needed for when the frigates, or spider drones in some missions if that route, get by sometimes.
Also of late I am on a faction drone kick. Fits above I'd pay extra for them. Will be a slight dps loss, the drone ehp can be nice enough to balance that imo. A few nights my drones come home banged up. They'd be dead if not faction most likely.
Some rats seem to love shooting drones as primary. Blood raiders come to mind. My rattlesnake (most recent toy project I am working on) can have full room aggro, is throwing paint (supposed to be make them focus more on it) and yet when I drop drones they aggro shift like its cool. Angels on the other hand...seem to not pay them much mind. Gurista sometime shoot them, sometimes ignore them like angels.
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Voxinian
104
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:37:44 -
[49] - Quote
As for missioning... DPS is not everything. I prefer to have a more cosy/lazy setup that has a lot of tank and can just warp in the pocket and sit there. You won't see me quickly in a CNR but often in a CNS instead, love the mid slots. If you don't care (that much) about doing missions as quickly as possible or the Isk/ph thing then all the mid slots is fun to play with, the CNS can be a versatile ship or simply be a huge tank with weapons. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18020
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Posted - 2016.09.10 20:36:26 -
[50] - Quote
Voxinian wrote:As for missioning... DPS is not everything. I prefer to have a more cosy/lazy setup that has a lot of tank and can just warp in the pocket and sit there. You won't see me quickly in a CNR but often in a CNS instead, love the mid slots. If you don't care (that much) about doing missions as quickly as possible or the Isk/ph thing then all the mid slots is fun to play with, the CNS can be a versatile ship or simply be a huge tank with weapons.
The CNR is a pretty relaxing ship to fly as it is. There are very few missions it can't tank with utter ease, especially now that deadspace hardeners and Large Boosters are so cheap. If you're not using Pith B-types, then why not?
Oh and the DPS is the same as the CNS. Application and speed are rather better though.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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