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Roman Manowar
State War Academy Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2016.08.11 22:13:12 -
[1] - Quote
Medium Auto Cannons at optimal chew things to shreds. Medium Hybrid's at optimal miss my targets.
Why is this happening and how do I correct it?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10413
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Posted - 2016.08.11 22:28:47 -
[2] - Quote
More information is needed.
What kinds of Autocannons are you using? Dual 180s, 220mm, 425mm?
What kinds of hybrid weapons are you using? Blasters or Railguns? If Blasters, are you using Electrons, Ions, or Neutrons? If Railguns, are you using Dual 150s, 200mm, or 250mm?
Are you using supporting modules? Things like Warp Scramblers, Stasis Webifiers, etc?
When you say "at optimal" are you referring to being within optimal range or exactly at the edge of optimal range?
And most importantly... is this for PvE or PvP?
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Roman Manowar
State War Academy Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2016.08.11 22:41:56 -
[3] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:More information is needed.
What kinds of Autocannons are you using? Dual 180s, 220mm, 425mm?
What kinds of hybrid weapons are you using? Blasters or Railguns? If Blasters, are you using Electrons, Ions, or Neutrons? If Railguns, are you using Dual 150s, 200mm, or 250mm?
Are you using supporting modules? Things like Warp Scramblers, Stasis Webifiers, etc?
When you say "at optimal" are you referring to being within optimal range or exactly at the edge of optimal range?
And most importantly... is this for PvE or PvP?
PVP. 425mm Autocannons hits fine. Heavy Ion Blaster doesn't hit. I'm just within optimal range. Using scrambler and statis web. My motion prediction is at 4.
The ship with autocannons has 2 Tracking Enhancers. maybe that's why?
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
17347
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Posted - 2016.08.11 22:48:36 -
[4] - Quote
what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving
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Roman Manowar
State War Academy Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2016.08.11 22:54:25 -
[5] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving
holy balls man, I need to know math to kill things in here? I thought you were flying the stripper hauler?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10414
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Posted - 2016.08.11 22:57:57 -
[6] - Quote
The Tracking Enhancers are probably the reason for the better tracking on the Autocannons. They increase optimal range, falloff range, and tracking.
Also...
- if you are orbiting your target at a fast speed, you may want to slow down a bit. Tracking increases if the relative velocity between you and the target is lower (see: try to align your trajectory so that it is parallel with the target's).
- sometimes it is better to attack at the edge of optimal range. By increasing distance, you can lower the relative velocity between you and the target.
- Do not be afraid of fighting in Falloff range. You may deal less raw damage (due to Falloff penalties), but the increased range can possibly increase the amount of damage applied (see: the damage that does get through the Falloff penalties may actually reach the target more often).
- if the Tracking Enhancers are not an option... applying two Stasis Webifiers can help.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10414
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Posted - 2016.08.11 23:04:06 -
[7] - Quote
Roman Manowar wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving holy balls man, I need to know math to kill things in here? I thought you were flying the stripper hauler? You need to know math to ascertain the probability of it getting blown up.
Or the chances of getting some of the cargo knocked up.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Memphis Baas
1901
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Posted - 2016.08.11 23:06:43 -
[8] - Quote
Tracking is always a problem with short range weapons, and the shorter the range, the worse the problem is. So blasters have the shortest range, autocannons next, and pulse lasers are almost medium range weapons.
Guns used to display a tracking value (in radians per second), that was directly comparable to a column you can enable in the overview (angular velocity), but CCP in their infinite wisdom decided a few months ago to remove that value from the gun stats and enable it with a composite value that includes the gun size. Stupid.
Anyway, tracking enhancers, stay still, and webify the target so it stays still too. As indicated by Shah above.
Or use the slightly smaller blasters appropriate for your ship class, as they track slightly better. Less damage though. But now is a good time to learn about damage application (how much of it actually lands). Sometimes what's best on paper is different than what's best in-game.
EDIT: And yeah, don't be afraid to operate outside the optimal range. At optimal + falloff you're doing half damage, at optimal + 2*falloff you're doing 0. So you can go slightly past optimal without much loss, if it applies better due to tracking. Autocannons actually are designed to operate into falloff; somebody plotted the damage curve due to tracking and falloff distance and the peak was about 10% into falloff. |
Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
2015
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Posted - 2016.08.11 23:07:19 -
[9] - Quote
Two things go into damage application, range and tracking.
Optimal tells you the maximum possible damage due to range only. Beyond that it will start to decrease due to range.
However damage can also be reduced if you can't track the target. Targets that are closer/faster are harder to track. That means sometimes you'll actually get more damage outside your optimal range in that sweet spot where you can actually track the target but haven't lost too much damage due to range yet.
Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Memphis Baas
1901
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Posted - 2016.08.11 23:11:59 -
[10] - Quote
The tracking math, and also the signature math (size of the target vs. caliber of your guns) are artificial game systems designed to allow frigates to survive a battleship's guns, which would otherwise one-shot them. So newbies (in large numbers) can take out a veteran.
Well, except that there are other counters to frigates (drones, energy neutralizing, smartbombs), so it actually not so easy. |
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1644
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Posted - 2016.08.11 23:49:32 -
[11] - Quote
Roman Manowar wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving holy balls man, I need to know math to kill things in here? I thought you were flying the stripper hauler? you don't need to know any math. Just the basics on how tracking works.
There are a lot of variables in this game and tbh none of the info Ralph asked for had anything to do with math, just some context of the situation. |
Roman Manowar
State War Academy Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2016.08.12 00:14:17 -
[12] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Roman Manowar wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:what are you flying and what are you shooting at, and how fast are both you and it moving holy balls man, I need to know math to kill things in here? I thought you were flying the stripper hauler? you don't need to know any math. Just the basics on how tracking works. There are a lot of variables in this game and tbh none of the info Ralph asked for had anything to do with math, just some context of the situation. I just assumed if I wasn't hitting something below my guns resolution, and then having to take into account my speed, and/or another persons speed.. that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit. |
Brynjard
Virgin Plc Evictus.
38
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Posted - 2016.08.12 01:06:06 -
[13] - Quote
It's not directly math. Just remember it's easier to hit a BS than a Frigat witht those guns. If the frigat is speed tanking you. Meaning it's flying "under" your guns. Your guns cannot track it. That is how a frigate can kill a BS
Some T1 projectile ammo gives tracking speed bonus(40%). T1 Hybrid doesn't. 40% tracking bonus is a major bonus.
Note - right tool for the right type of job - Unless you adjust your tools. Some crazy man said; "you don't shoot sparrow with a cannon". He did lot of bad things, but that quote is the truth, even in space :)
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
17348
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Posted - 2016.08.12 01:13:12 -
[14] - Quote
Roman Manowar wrote:that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit. i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like neaaaaarm , then my tracking will suck unless we are going like neaaaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our neaaaaarm cancels the others out. if im just puttering about then i might hit but their neaaaaarm is still an issue, likewise if they are puttering about but im like neaaaaarm then i run into the same issue.
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Roman Manowar
State War Academy Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2016.08.12 02:02:50 -
[15] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Roman Manowar wrote:that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit. i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like nea aaaarm , then my tracking will suck unless we are going like nea aaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our nea aaaarm cancels the others out. if im just puttering about then i might hit but their nea aaaarm is still an issue, likewise if they are puttering about but im like nea aaaarm then i run into the same issue.
That actually made sense lol. *pours you a pint*
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10419
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Posted - 2016.08.12 02:04:47 -
[16] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Roman Manowar wrote:that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit. i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like nea aaaarm , then my tracking will suck unless we are going like nea aaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our nea aaaarm cancels the others out. if im just puttering about then i might hit but their nea aaaarm is still an issue, likewise if they are puttering about but im like nea aaaarm then i run into the same issue. hahahahahahahaha
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
17355
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Posted - 2016.08.12 09:30:53 -
[17] - Quote
Roman Manowar wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Roman Manowar wrote:that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit. i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like nea aaaarm , then my tracking will suck unless we are going like nea aaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our nea aaaarm cancels the others out. if im just puttering about then i might hit but their nea aaaarm is still an issue, likewise if they are puttering about but im like nea aaaarm then i run into the same issue. That actually made sense lol. *pours you a pint* Sl+íinte, i should teach drunk eve comprehention
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Keno Skir
808
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Posted - 2016.08.12 12:52:09 -
[18] - Quote
The duel tracking enhancers on the Stabber made your auto's seem like they were way faster tracking than the blasters on the Vigi. Also you get more playroom in falloff on the autocannons, whereas as small deviation in range with blasters can put you all the way to the back of falloff range reducing hit quality and dps overall. 2 tracking enhancers on the Vigi will make things similar but you will sacrifice tank.
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Memphis Baas
1905
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Posted - 2016.08.12 13:03:17 -
[19] - Quote
It's always about sacrificing something. |
Paranoid Loyd
9405
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Posted - 2016.08.12 14:41:34 -
[20] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Roman Manowar wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Roman Manowar wrote:that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit. i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like nea aaaarm , then my tracking will suck unless we are going like nea aaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our nea aaaarm cancels the others out. if im just puttering about then i might hit but their nea aaaarm is still an issue, likewise if they are puttering about but im like nea aaaarm then i run into the same issue. That actually made sense lol. *pours you a pint* Sl+íinte, i should teach drunk eve comprehention I thought thats what you've been doing this whole time.
Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
17375
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Posted - 2016.08.12 14:48:42 -
[21] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Roman Manowar wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Roman Manowar wrote:that there must be some funky math calculations needed to determine the correct tracking to hit. i am horrificaly dyslexcic but i think of it like this if im going like neaaaaarmand theyr going like nea aaaarm , then my tracking will suck unless we are going like nea aaaarm in the same direction then i can hit because our nea aaaarm cancels the others out. if im just puttering about then i might hit but their nea aaaarm is still an issue, likewise if they are puttering about but im like nea aaaarm then i run into the same issue. That actually made sense lol. *pours you a pint* Sl+íinte, i should teach drunk eve comprehention I thought thats what you've been doing this whole time. you'r right ... then why the **** aint i getting paid for this ****!
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10429
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Posted - 2016.08.12 16:58:43 -
[22] - Quote
Because under that brusque, curmudgeonny demeanor Ralph... you have a soft spot for new players and get off from the warm fuzzies like the rest of us.
But shhhhhhhhhhhh... I will not tell.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
603
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Posted - 2016.08.12 19:39:51 -
[23] - Quote
To OP: if you don't hit things, did you try to 'keep at range' rather than zip around like a madman? You're brawling anyway, with blasters you can practically just hit "approach" cause nothing will last long under those guns anyway. |
Roman Manowar
State War Academy Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2016.08.12 20:03:44 -
[24] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:To OP: if you don't hit things, did you try to 'keep at range' rather than zip around like a madman? You're brawling anyway, with blasters you can practically just hit "approach" cause nothing will last long under those guns anyway.
Actually, I tried the "keep at range" and It helped. Also just approaching seemed to help too. thanks!
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
604
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Posted - 2016.08.12 21:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Alright! That's good, we're getting somewhere.
There is however one thing I find somewhat peculiar: blasters are supposed to track BETTER than autocannons, not the other way around. Would you please verify you were looking at optimal range of your guns with the ammo loaded (antimatter for example cuts optimal in half), on your ship, with your skills taken into account?
Blaster range is abyssmal but the tracking is excellent, therefore I somehow suspect you WERE out of range. Approaching obviously fixes both tracking and range issues, but I'd like to narrow it down to just one of those. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
604
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Posted - 2016.08.12 21:14:21 -
[26] - Quote
Oh well. Since I feel like helping ya out, I'll tell you some more about those guns.
First off, yes the tracking enhancers definitely help (for reasons stated in this thread earlier). If you cannot spare the lowslot however, you can achieve the same with a rig.
Secondly, no tracking enhancer nor tracking computer nor rig should be required to hit with a blaster at point-blank range. I strongly suspect you are trying to shoot something that is smaller than you are. This is where signature radius comes in: the smaller a target is, the harder it is to hit. Also the faster it is moving relative to your position (perpendicular), the harder it is to hit.
Both are multiplied, as represented by the Accuracy Score rating on your gun. A small blaster, intended to shoot frigates and destroyers, will have a MUCH higher rating than a medium gun intended to blast cruisers and battlecruisers.
Now, you can compare the accuracy of the blaster with your favourite autocannon (a wise choice I might add LOL) BUT it won't tell you the whole story: the blaster will indeed hit (apply) better than an autocannon ... at the same range. Since the optimal range is so much smaller, however, you'd need to get closer to the target and any transversal movement you and your enemy perform will negatively affect accuracy. (the movement is measures in angle/second -- the close you get, the higher the angular velocity)
This is why keeping at range or approaching helps: it takes YOUR movement out of the equation and only leaves your enemy's perpendicular movement. Which would be negligible because you mentioned scram+web -- he'll be doing like a 150 m/sec at most right?
There are some measures you can take to improve your ability to hit stuff: (1) use a DUAL web. Your target won't be going past 70 m/sec, sometimes even less; so tracking will be no problem no matter what. (2) improve your tracking/optimal by fitting rigs or tracking enhancers (you figured this one out already) (3) increase the target's signature radius by applying a Target Painter. I wouldn't combine long-range paint with short-range armament however, so this is a moot point for you. (4) use smaller guns. Just like autocannons come in 425 / 220 / 180 mms, so too are there three kinds of blasters. The one with the highest accuracy applies damage best to small targets. The one with the lowest accuracy applies worse to small targets but makes bigger holes in large targets where sigradius is a non-issue.
Keep me posted on your progress, and good luck! |
Astra Starshine
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2016.08.12 22:43:15 -
[27] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote: There are some measures you can take to improve your ability to hit stuff: (1) use a DUAL web. Your target won't be going past 70 m/sec, sometimes even less; so tracking will be no problem no matter what. (2) improve your tracking/optimal by fitting rigs or tracking enhancers (you figured this one out already) (3) increase the target's signature radius by applying a Target Painter. I wouldn't combine long-range paint with short-range armament however, so this is a moot point for you. (4) use smaller guns. Just like autocannons come in 425 / 220 / 180 mms, so too are there three kinds of blasters. The one with the highest accuracy applies damage best to small targets. The one with the lowest accuracy applies worse to small targets but makes bigger holes in large targets where sigradius is a non-issue.
Keep me posted on your progress, and good luck!
So my Stabber Fleet Issue with dual webs, scram and 220mm ac will catch and blow holes through things, but if I swap out to 425mm, my target sized ships change? |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
605
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Posted - 2016.08.12 23:00:42 -
[28] - Quote
Nah. dualwebs on a stabber will hit anything. Go for 425s (if powergrid permits)
if A = differences in Sigradius and B = difference in angular velocity vs. what your guns can deliver (accuracy), then chance to hit is A x B.
Meaning that if you solve B (by applying dual webs the target will barely move), the A factor won't matter. Large guns for example can and will blap very small frigates IF THOSE FRIGS AREN'T MOVING.
Basically, you only want to use less than the biggest guns if (a) tracking is really an issue, as would be the case on a battleship trying to shoot cruisers, or (b) you need too many engineering mods to make it all fit. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10435
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Posted - 2016.08.12 23:19:42 -
[29] - Quote
Astra Starshine wrote:Brokk Witgenstein wrote: There are some measures you can take to improve your ability to hit stuff: (1) use a DUAL web. Your target won't be going past 70 m/sec, sometimes even less; so tracking will be no problem no matter what. (2) improve your tracking/optimal by fitting rigs or tracking enhancers (you figured this one out already) (3) increase the target's signature radius by applying a Target Painter. I wouldn't combine long-range paint with short-range armament however, so this is a moot point for you. (4) use smaller guns. Just like autocannons come in 425 / 220 / 180 mms, so too are there three kinds of blasters. The one with the highest accuracy applies damage best to small targets. The one with the lowest accuracy applies worse to small targets but makes bigger holes in large targets where sigradius is a non-issue.
Keep me posted on your progress, and good luck!
So my Stabber Fleet Issue with dual webs, scram and 220mm ac will catch and blow holes through things, but if I swap out to 425mm, my target sized ships change? Euuhhhhh... let me explain a bit.
There are generally 4 aspects you have to keep in mind when using turrets.
Range: This is pretty easy. Within optimal range you can potentially deal 100% damage to a target. In Falloff range you can still deal damage, but carries a damage reduction penalty (see: halfway into Falloff range there is a 50% damage reduction penalty).
Tracking: This is how fast a weapon can keep up with a target. Smaller sized guns (both in overall class and in-class) have better tracking.
Speed / Trajectory: This goes hand-in-hand with Tracking. As I mentioned before, if you can align your Trajectory and Speed as close as possible to your target's the greater the odds of hitting a target (which goes back to Tracking, which decides how close in Speed / Trajectory you have to be).
Signature Radius: Every ship has a "sensor footprint" which is sized anywhere between 40m (Frigate) to 400m+ (Battleship+). All turrets have a certain number called "Signature Resolution" which decides how much damage it can potentially deal against what size Signature Radius. If the Sig Radius of a ship is equal or larger than the Rig Resolution of the turret, it will potentially deal full damage. If lower, then a damage reduction penalty is applied.
To put it simply...
if you are rocking a bigger gun and can't hit a target, you need to...
- align your speed trajectory more closely (to reduce relative velocity between you and the target) - pull more range (to reduce relative velocity between you and the target) - make your target slower (see: Stasis Webs) - make your target "bigger" (see: Target Painters) - use "smaller" guns (see: give up "raw" damage potential to increase the "margin of error" for all of the above, thus increasing "applied" damage) - some combination of all of the above.
tldr: Experiment with things. Using turrets effectively is more of an art than a cut-and-dry science.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
560
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Posted - 2016.08.12 23:38:38 -
[30] - Quote
Everything that has been advised here has been pretty much spot on. I'm only going to chime in some experiences I've run across shooting PvE Rails now Blasters ON THE SAME SHIP.
When you are 'at the edge' of optimum, you get better to hit chances for the reasons stated but you need to consider the actual DPS you are cranking out at that range. It might be lower than Rails firing close in ammo like antimatter or Void. If you find that to be the case then you might get better results with rails at the same range, however Rails kind of go from short medium to really long.
Most of my blaster fit ships speed/sig tank. Even my ENI speed/sig tanks larger NPC ships. My Comet can speed/sig tank anything above a Frigate and below a Battleship (it still does the battleship but it can't do enough DPS If the ship has a high passive tank or active tank). I orbit my ENI at 1000 -2500m depending on the target (the smaller the closer the orbit) and my Comet at 500 - 1000m. So that's WAAAAY below rail capability.
In the end, it's really about a balance of offense and defense. If you are at the edge of optimum and getting plastered, move in a little closer and see if they miss more. You might miss more, but if they aren't hitting you then hitting at all above what they can tank means you will win eventually.
You can also improve your blasters with RIG fitting. You can use a tracking enhancer with a script to really boost your tracking ability if you have the fit slots to handle a dedicated unit like that. Dual web also works but sucks more power. Don't forget, you can be webbed too so a couple of ships tying each other down is a slugfest and if you aren't in optimal and your target is, guess who likely wins close fights?
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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