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Kei Nagasai
X-COM Navy Fidelas Constans
19
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Posted - 2016.08.15 07:47:12 -
[1] - Quote
We were shown the new Barges, which I must say, look awesome. However, it is clear that they are going to be reworked in a big way, number of strip miners, which probably means the bonus's are going to change, along with other things. Where is the info on this? |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
740
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Posted - 2016.08.15 07:53:07 -
[2] - Quote
When the information is released, there will be a thread here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=7291 |
Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
261
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Posted - 2016.08.15 08:01:04 -
[3] - Quote
lol. this is like the third time bardges have been reworked since I been here.
but the reason the new order exists still hasn't been addressed.
Its not the damn ships that need overhauling. Its mining itself.
It needs to be made more interactive.
So boters can be detected and addressed.
pitiful waste of our money chasing this ship rework. |
Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
261
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Posted - 2016.08.15 09:06:50 -
[4] - Quote
I should also point out ive no dog in this fight really.
I don't go out of my way to kill miners, nor do I have any problem with what the new order is doing. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2165
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Posted - 2016.08.15 09:21:46 -
[5] - Quote
I noted the second strip miner on the Skiff and Procurer which is a good thing, I hope they do not go with the whining by the gankers on the tanks of the Skiff and Produrer but adjust the tanks of the other ships to be more in line with the Skiff and Procurer.
I currently only mine at the moment because I can sit in a ship that is hard to kill and only the most dedicated scum bag with freinds has a chance to kill me. The calculation has to be Kusion + 3 dual boxers at least which is where a useful Skiffs is now.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD. Bullets Bombs and Blondes
154
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Posted - 2016.08.15 10:54:14 -
[6] - Quote
The proof is in the pudding. o7 show was just a teaser. The "long & detailed" screenshots were meant to start a crap storm on the forums and reddit ( is reddit still around? ).
Devblogs and Sisi will show the true intentions of CCP. I hate to be cynical when it comes to the Indy ships. But... history paints a bleak future.
Max
Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never.
Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.
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Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
641
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Posted - 2016.08.15 11:34:33 -
[7] - Quote
I don't see why the barges need to be changed at all given they were tiericided successfully only recently. Maybe the Covetor / Retriever class barges could do with a little increase in EHP so they can't be ganked by a lone catalyst, but other than that the fundamental concept that was laid out in the original tiericide is fine.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
105
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Posted - 2016.08.15 16:22:24 -
[8] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:I don't see why the barges need to be changed at all given they were tiericided successfully only recently. Maybe the Covetor / Retriever class barges could do with a little increase in EHP so they can't be ganked by a lone catalyst, but other than that the fundamental concept that was laid out in the original tiericide is fine. The retriever was the real issue for me. It cant even handle basic rats. It has no slots for a tank and has no base HP so it dies if anything sneezes on it. |
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
39
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Posted - 2016.08.15 16:26:37 -
[9] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:I noted the second strip miner on the Skiff and Procurer which is a good thing, I hope they do not go with the whining by the gankers on the tanks of the Skiff and Produrer but adjust the tanks of the other ships to be more in line with the Skiff and Procurer.
I currently only mine at the moment because I can sit in a ship that is hard to kill and only the most dedicated scum bag with freinds has a chance to kill me. The calculation has to be Kusion + 3 dual boxers at least which is where a useful Skiffs is now.
But did you also see the 2 lasers on the hulk? |
DaReaper
Net 7 Cannon.Fodder
2889
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Posted - 2016.08.15 16:51:59 -
[10] - Quote
there should be a dev blog soon(tm) (roumer has it this week we should get a mess of blogs)
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10452
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Posted - 2016.08.15 17:50:48 -
[11] - Quote
I do not expect the barges yields and tanks to change all that much.
The role bonuses may be tossed out and the barge skill levels reworked to result in largely the same ships we have now.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17865
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Posted - 2016.08.15 20:08:24 -
[12] - Quote
Darth Terona wrote:
Its not the damn ships that need overhauling. Its mining itself.
Barges are very much a problem, for example the Covetor gets 3 high slots, one mid, two low and 3 rigs. You can't do anything with that.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17865
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Posted - 2016.08.15 20:13:21 -
[13] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:I don't see why the barges need to be changed at all given they were tiericided successfully only recently. Maybe the Covetor / Retriever class barges could do with a little increase in EHP so they can't be ganked by a lone catalyst, but other than that the fundamental concept that was laid out in the original tiericide is fine.
The teircide was a disaster. The skiff walked away with a battleship level tank with nothing fitted, you can't alter the ore holds, the covetor has no slots let alone fitting room, the skiff mines close to what a hulk can pull which means flying anything other than a skiff is pointless. These ships are pre fitted, poorly balanced against eachother and offer near no options. |
Viktor Amarr
37
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Posted - 2016.08.15 20:36:55 -
[14] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I don't see why the barges need to be changed at all given they were tiericided successfully only recently. Maybe the Covetor / Retriever class barges could do with a little increase in EHP so they can't be ganked by a lone catalyst, but other than that the fundamental concept that was laid out in the original tiericide is fine. The teircide was a disaster. The skiff walked away with a battleship level tank with nothing fitted, you can't alter the ore holds, the covetor has no slots let alone fitting room, the skiff mines close to what a hulk can pull which means flying anything other than a skiff is pointless. These ships are pre fitted, poorly balanced against eachother and offer near no options.
That's because giving miners options results in shitfitting that gets them killed after which they start whining resulting in more hand holding so they don't have to engage the few braincells that they have.
Before miners had to choose to fit tank but didn't and thus CCP made it so obvious, so easy "choose this one to not blow up" and STILL miners can't get it right. Giving them more options won't help in any sort of way.
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Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
108
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Posted - 2016.08.15 20:43:43 -
[15] - Quote
Viktor Amarr wrote:baltec1 wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I don't see why the barges need to be changed at all given they were tiericided successfully only recently. Maybe the Covetor / Retriever class barges could do with a little increase in EHP so they can't be ganked by a lone catalyst, but other than that the fundamental concept that was laid out in the original tiericide is fine. The teircide was a disaster. The skiff walked away with a battleship level tank with nothing fitted, you can't alter the ore holds, the covetor has no slots let alone fitting room, the skiff mines close to what a hulk can pull which means flying anything other than a skiff is pointless. These ships are pre fitted, poorly balanced against eachother and offer near no options. That's because giving miners options results in shitfitting that gets them killed after which they start whining resulting in more hand holding so they don't have to engage the few braincells that they have. Before miners had to choose to fit tank but didn't and thus CCP made it so obvious, so easy "choose this one to not blow up" and STILL miners can't get it right. Giving them more options won't help in any sort of way. I mean... isn't it possible that the options are crap or crap
crap > crap
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17867
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Posted - 2016.08.15 20:51:07 -
[16] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote: I mean... isn't it possible that the options are crap or crap
crap > crap
Not if CCP did a good job in the first place. Base tank on the hulk used to be the same as the zealot (it still is roughly), at the time everyones favourate small gang/fleet ship. All that needed to be done was give the hulk the slots and powergrid/cpu to actually fit things. Same went for the other barges but nope, CCP went the way they did to stop miners from hurting themselves.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3517
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Posted - 2016.08.15 21:44:55 -
[17] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Not if CCP did a good job in the first place. Base tank on the hulk used to be the same as the zealot (it still is roughly), at the time everyones favourate small gang/fleet ship. All that needed to be done was give the hulk the slots and powergrid/cpu to actually fit things. Same went for the other barges but nope, CCP went the way they did to stop miners from hurting themselves.
It's because CCP insists on keeping 3 mining barges, rather than turning the other two hulls into other ORE ships, like the ORE Drone combat cruiser and the ORE hauler (Which can have some ability to fit mining equipment also but no bonuses to it so they can do something while on grid waiting).
And then like you said, you give them slot/pg/cpu to fit things (My level would be the same as the zealot adjusted for the strip miner needs vs medium turret needs, or just make sure strip miners take equivalent PG & CPU). Hard cap strip miner number means you can give them utility slots even without instantly cramming another strip miner in, and we know it can be done because of command ships. Enough cargo hold that cargo extenders give meaningful space, but at the cost of not fitting other things in the lows. And hey presto, we now have 1 barge that can be fitted to do the job of any of the current three. And 2 other hulls suitable for use for other purposes. Fitting choices now replace hard baked hulls. |
Hal Morsh
Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem
541
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Posted - 2016.08.15 22:47:15 -
[18] - Quote
If you mine in anywhere besides highsec, mining is a minigame. The minigame is watching local and d-scan, hoping you aren't scrammed within the 4 seconds it takes to align after a Russian and his alt enter system.
Omar Alharazaad > Pretty much any time you blow something up in space it's bound to annoy someone or something.
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Serene Repose
2684
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Posted - 2016.08.15 22:50:58 -
[19] - Quote
Viktor Amarr wrote:baltec1 wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I don't see why the barges need to be changed at all given they were tiericided successfully only recently. Maybe the Covetor / Retriever class barges could do with a little increase in EHP so they can't be ganked by a lone catalyst, but other than that the fundamental concept that was laid out in the original tiericide is fine. The teircide was a disaster. The skiff walked away with a battleship level tank with nothing fitted, you can't alter the ore holds, the covetor has no slots let alone fitting room, the skiff mines close to what a hulk can pull which means flying anything other than a skiff is pointless. These ships are pre fitted, poorly balanced against eachother and offer near no options. That's because giving miners options results in shitfitting that gets them killed after which they start whining resulting in more hand holding so they don't have to engage the few braincells that they have. Before miners had to choose to fit tank but didn't and thus CCP made it so obvious, so easy "choose this one to not blow up" and STILL miners can't get it right. Giving them more options won't help in any sort of way. Generalize much....to make yourself look really, really cool and them to look like ditzy fools? Huh?
We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17878
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Posted - 2016.08.15 23:00:53 -
[20] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Generalize much....to make yourself look really, really cool and them to look like ditzy fools? Huh?
Back when we ran a corp level ice interdiction in 2012 we killed over 600 exhumers, the ones that fitted a tank could be counted on your fingers so you tell me. |
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Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
650
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Posted - 2016.08.15 23:44:46 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I don't see why the barges need to be changed at all given they were tiericided successfully only recently. Maybe the Covetor / Retriever class barges could do with a little increase in EHP so they can't be ganked by a lone catalyst, but other than that the fundamental concept that was laid out in the original tiericide is fine. The teircide was a disaster. The skiff walked away with a battleship level tank with nothing fitted, you can't alter the ore holds, the covetor has no slots let alone fitting room, the skiff mines close to what a hulk can pull which means flying anything other than a skiff is pointless. These ships are pre fitted, poorly balanced against eachother and offer near no options. The fundamental concept is fine. Procurer hull = defence / Retriever hull = capacity / Covetor hull = yield.
What you are talking about is a complete rework of the concept. I wouldn't complain if they did, although I don't agree that is necessary and is a waste of development resources which could be better spent elsewhere. It is obvious the procurer hull offers great advantage for minimal drawback, although this can be tweaked by buffing the other two.
I remember the very first barge rework and CCP incorrectly claimed that all players would favour yield and capacity over anything else, this assumption is where the mistake lies, and is why the procurer is more popular as the value of it's strength was vastly underestimated by CCP.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17885
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Posted - 2016.08.16 00:00:32 -
[22] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: The fundamental concept is fine. Procurer hull = defence / Retriever hull = capacity / Covetor hull = yield.
What you are talking about is a complete rework of the concept. I wouldn't complain if they did, although I don't agree that is necessary and is a waste of development resources which could be better spent elsewhere. It is obvious the procurer hull offers great advantage for minimal drawback, although this can be tweaked by buffing the other two.
I remember the very first barge rework and CCP incorrectly claimed that all players would favour yield and capacity over anything else, this assumption is where the mistake lies, and is why the procurer is more popular as the value of it's strength was vastly underestimated by CCP.
You are making the same mistake as made twice before.
You don't buff the other barges to match the skiff, you bring the skiff back down to the level of the other barges. You then give the barges the ability to actually fit things, for example;
Hulk 3 high slots 1 mid slot 7 low slots
Cargo expanders now impact ore holds (ore hold is altered to take this into effect). Reason for changing the barges into armour tankers rather than shield is so you have to make hard choices just like any other ships. Ship EHP would be around the same as a zealot if you fit a tank like you would any other ship or you can just go full yeild and cargo. Its up to the pilot to decide. The 1 mid is to force you to choose between mobility or utility.
This is all meaningless however as CCP have decided to give all barges 2 mining lasers so we can assume at the very least all six barges have 2 high slots with the hulk and covetor getting a bonus to mining laser amount. We can also assume the skiff is losing its 150% bonus to mining laser amount.
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Caco De'mon
New Order Logistics CODE.
38
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Posted - 2016.08.16 00:06:40 -
[23] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You don't buff the other barges to match the skiff, you bring the skiff back down to the level of the other barges. You then give the barges the ability to actually fit things, for example;
That.
*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
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Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
651
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Posted - 2016.08.16 00:35:32 -
[24] - Quote
Caco De'mon wrote:baltec1 wrote:You don't buff the other barges to match the skiff, you bring the skiff back down to the level of the other barges. You then give the barges the ability to actually fit things, for example; That. Except the skiff and procurer are the only ones that perform as they should. You can't even put the other two in a belt in null sec because the rats will kill them. This is another reason why passive armour tanked miners would be a really bad idea.
IMO give the others greater tank, equivalent drone bonuses, and then increase yield and ore bay respectively.That's enough to see all of them getting use.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
833
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Posted - 2016.08.16 00:44:06 -
[25] - Quote
I would propose that if rats are a problem you kill them with something else first then come back. The respawn timers on them are like an hour or some such. |
Caco De'mon
New Order Logistics CODE.
38
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Posted - 2016.08.16 00:51:25 -
[26] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:[quote=Caco De'mon]You can't even put the other two in a belt in null sec because the rats will kill them. This is another reason why passive armour tanked miners would be a really bad idea.
*hint*
kill the rats first
*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3518
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Posted - 2016.08.16 01:39:32 -
[27] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: This is all meaningless however as CCP have decided to give all barges 2 mining lasers so we can assume at the very least all six barges have 2 high slots with the hulk and covetor getting a bonus to mining laser amount. We can also assume the skiff is losing its 150% bonus to mining laser amount.
Or you get them to put a hard cap on strip miners per ship ala links, and then they can have additional high slots also. There is a lot that can be done using existing proven tech CCP already have introduced. You don't even have to work out how to have cargo extenders affect the ore hold (Which is a wider reaching thing than just barges). You just make sure the base cargo is large enough that cargo extenders make a difference to it. (Becomes much easier if cargo extenders had a stacking penalty like everything else that adds a percentage modifier does also, but that one is a larger change) |
Solecist Project
32131
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Posted - 2016.08.16 09:55:41 -
[28] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Darth Terona wrote:
Its not the damn ships that need overhauling. Its mining itself.
Barges are very much a problem, for example the Covetor gets 3 high slots, one mid, two low and 3 rigs. You can't do anything with that.
what do you mean, you can-Št do anything with that? could you please elaborate?
nevermind. scroll first, sol.
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
894
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Posted - 2016.08.16 11:12:39 -
[29] - Quote
Covvie needs maxed out skill wise 2 cycles of ore in the ore hold. Ret and Covvie need 3 mids with enough CPU/PG to fit Em ward amp, invul and MSE. Hulk needs more CPU/PG to fit a tank without it being super expensive. Other T2 miners are great. Proc can have a buff to ore hold to skiff 15K m3 but this isnt a huge deal to me tbh.
Mining lasers go to turret slots like Miner I and IIs and proc and ret/skiff and mack get one utility high. Ammo holds for ALL barges and exhumers with increased amounts up to 1K m3 for crystals. Cargo stays the same and nothing else hold wise needs changes but the proc.
Regarding the tank fitting, then change the tank base EHP to align with that basic tank module layout.
Give each barge an onboard 10km survey scanner with covvie and hulks getting a range bonus equal to the range bonus of the laser range bonus. Everything else stays at 10kms as if your in fleet with boosts you already get a range bonus but if your solo your range is base 10kms anyway for ice and 15km for ore so it means youd have a trade off there at least. Add the survey scanner to the mining frigates as well.
You could give a slight buff to drone damage of the other barges too but its not horrible imo. Too much and its a bit bland. Its more a solo issue as as soon as you have 2 or 3 barges your good to go and more is overkill for even null spawns. If you buff the tanks of the T1s enough to what I said previously the dps isnt as much an issue except for some of the bigger lower true sec spawns even solo.
And thats just off the top of my head.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
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Solecist Project
32131
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Posted - 2016.08.16 11:23:20 -
[30] - Quote
they should turn them all into proper combat ships...
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
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