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Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
1
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Posted - 2011.12.21 13:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
In an effort to reduce the amount of "OMG SOMEONE HACKED THE MARKET TO REMOVE THEIR BUY ORDER" forum posts in market discussion I am going to propose the following change.
This change will not affect the way margin trading works what so ever, it will just make it impossible to place unfillable orders.
This super easy fix is this:
Make it so the minimum amount required cannot exceed the value of the escrow required for the order.
So say you wanted to place a buy order for 10,000 tech. The value of which is 100,000. Without margin trading you would have to place the full 1 billion in escrow. But if you have margin trading at a level which gives a 50% reduction you would only have to place 500 million. At this point make it so that the minimum amount required cannot exceed that 500 million. So the highest it could be is 5000 units.
This gets rid of the exploit (and come on that's all it really is, exploiting a loop hole in a skill in order to prey on the greedy and stupid. Which while justified does not improve the game at all), and it does not hinder the valid use of this skill to traders.
That is all I have to say.
Cheers.
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Zylawy
Ignorance Is Bliss. The Empire Strikes Back
1
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Posted - 2011.12.21 13:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
That would not work, since they can still give that isk away to a corp mate, or alt account.
The only fix would be to throw them into the negative. now THAT would be awesome. and the only reason is because they would have to sell to buy orders... lol they would not be able to pay for the broker fees to putting something on the market. |
Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
1
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Posted - 2011.12.21 14:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Give what isk away?
All the isk for the minimum amount required is in escrow. The player cannot touch that. Therefore the order can be filled.
edit: Up to the minimum amount. This way there is little to no money to make off it. |
Zylawy
Ignorance Is Bliss. The Empire Strikes Back
1
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Posted - 2011.12.21 14:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
So then the other 5000 just sit on the market doing nothing?
So we will have a ton of orders no one can sell to? I see that one being a bigger pain, and I can see a lot of other scams that would happen with that idea. |
De'Veldrin
Element 27 Intrepid Crossing
124
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Posted - 2011.12.21 14:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
To be frank, if you're greedy and/or stupid enough to fall for this scam, you got what you deserved.
Caveat venditor. Unsub or don't.-á I don't care what your reasons are, and neither does anyone else.-á Just click the button and go away - or don't. |
Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
1
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Posted - 2011.12.21 14:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Actually there won't. Since it will no longer be profitable people won't do it any more.
And if they do those 5000 will go away just like they do now. The only difference is that the scammer won't make any isk off of it. |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2011.12.21 15:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Simple solution any failed order placed with Escrow results in a loss of a level of the skill associated with it. |
Zylawy
Ignorance Is Bliss. The Empire Strikes Back
1
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Posted - 2011.12.21 18:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Negative wallet would be better.... lol. that way they pay the price that they are asking and will have to get isk elsewhere or dump what they have to buy orders. |
Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
1
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Posted - 2011.12.21 18:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Negative balance just means deleted characters. Make it so you cannot delete negative wallet characters off your account, or make all characters on an account share a wallet then maybe. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
210
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Posted - 2011.12.21 19:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Srioghal moDhream wrote:Negative balance just means deleted characters. Make it so you cannot delete negative wallet characters off your account, or make all characters on an account share a wallet then maybe.
Worse, it means creating the ability to spawn massive amounts of ISK from nothing, meaning you fixed a minor scam/issue in the market by creating a game breaking exploit. |
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Cendres Ange
STEMA Traders Inc
12
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Posted - 2011.12.21 19:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
This game is all about PvP, no part of the game shold be safe in that regard.You can get sucideganked, tricked into a trap, have ppl warp in on you while you are on missions. why should the market be any different? you can avoid falling for theese scams with some knowledge or experience. I dont whine on the forums when I lose a ship deu to poor skills on my end. Improve sorting of orders
Custom window presets |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
168
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Posted - 2011.12.21 20:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Margin Trading skill needs to be fixed. Period...thats one of the biggest exploits in the game. I'm all for EVE being brutal, but at least give me a chance to see if its a scam. I mean some of the scams can be obvious, but some aren't, and this hurts REAL margin traders, the one the skill was actually made for. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
89
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Posted - 2011.12.22 00:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,
And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.
I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...
Hence, this is not a solution.
The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow... |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
114
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Posted - 2011.12.22 00:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Guyes, there's a great way to avoid these scams.
Train 'Common Sense' to I |
Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
93
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 00:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
How about buy orders were the buyer does not have enough isk are marked in red/yellow/orange? Maybe different colors depending on how many % of the required isk the buyer lacks, yellow for +25%, orange for +50% and red for +75%
that way we wont need to change the skill but the scams will be pretty damn obvious.
so for example, buy order is for 10000 tech, 100k each , buyer has about 450mil isk so he lacks 550 mil isk, 55% of the total buy order which in turn will make his buy order marked with orange text. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
360
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 01:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Remove margin trading. Don't got the isk, don't trade. |
Jask Avan
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2011.12.22 03:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
As a poor dumb noob, what exactly is the scam here? |
De'Veldrin
Element 27 Intrepid Crossing
124
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Posted - 2011.12.22 05:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jask Avan wrote:As a poor dumb noob, what exactly is the scam here?
Essentially it goes like this:
I put up a buy order for something stupid, like Widgets for a ridiculously high price, with a minimum quantity of say 500000
I then put up a sell order for the same item, in the same quantity for a lower sale price, but slightly higher than market average. Finally, I empty my wallet of all ISK - this is important, because it keeps the buy order from completing.
Some greedy dumbass sees my buy order, and then notices my sell order and says whoa, I can make a **** ton of cash really easily. This should be clue number 1 in Eve. If it seems to good to be true, it IS too good to be true.
Anyway, they buy my items, I get their ISK, they try and fill my buy order hoping to make tons of cash and it fails because I don't have the ISk to cover it. So they have a bunch of crap they can't sell for a profit and I have the ISK they spent buying it, assuming I did the scam correctly.
Avoiding it isn't hard, but it does take a bit of research that greedy dabblers in trading generally don't spend the time to do.
It is not, however, an exploit as so many would like you to believe. It's perfectly legitimate game play. Unsub or don't.-á I don't care what your reasons are, and neither does anyone else.-á Just click the button and go away - or don't. |
Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 15:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,
And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.
I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...
Hence, this is not a solution.
The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...
This broke my idea.
:( |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
89
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 17:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Srioghal moDhream wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,
And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.
I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...
Hence, this is not a solution.
The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...
This broke my idea. :(
sorry to burst the bubble..... It really did sound like a nice & elegant solution! |
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GavinCapacitor
CaeIum Incognitum
18
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Posted - 2011.12.22 20:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Srioghal moDhream wrote: This super easy fix is this:
Make it so the minimum amount required cannot exceed the value of the escrow required for the order.
So say you wanted to place a buy order for 10,000 tech. The value of which is 100,000. Without margin trading you would have to place the full 1 billion in escrow. But if you have margin trading at a level which gives a 50% reduction you would only have to place 500 million. At this point make it so that the minimum amount required cannot exceed that 500 million. So the highest it could be is 5000 units.
Then you just sell 5000 'tech' at the super inflated price, give away all your isk from your alt as soon as it makes the buy order (like you do anyway), and Bam, problem solved.
So if everyone had margin trading V, all this would do is double the quantity for the fake orders, and nothing else changes.
Not to mention all those alts probably only have margin trading 1, not 5.
I think you didn't actually think about this much at all before you posted... |
Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 20:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
GavinCapacitor wrote:Srioghal moDhream wrote: This super easy fix is this:
Make it so the minimum amount required cannot exceed the value of the escrow required for the order.
So say you wanted to place a buy order for 10,000 tech. The value of which is 100,000. Without margin trading you would have to place the full 1 billion in escrow. But if you have margin trading at a level which gives a 50% reduction you would only have to place 500 million. At this point make it so that the minimum amount required cannot exceed that 500 million. So the highest it could be is 5000 units.
Then you just sell 5000 'tech' at the super inflated price, give away all your isk from your alt as soon as it makes the buy order (like you do anyway), and Bam, problem solved. So if everyone had margin trading V, all this would do is double the quantity for the fake orders, and nothing else changes. Not to mention all those alts probably only have margin trading 1, not 5. I think you didn't actually think about this much at all before you posted...
I don't think your reading comprehension skills are very high. Besides another poster already showed a way around it that actually made sense, unlike your contribution.
But thanks for trying. |
Lucjan
R-E-D
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 20:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Pay attention to what you're doing and don't market pvp while drunk.
An obvious strategy to this scam could take years and a substantial investment but could eventually pay off. Beat them at their own game. Note the scams and what items they are looking for and start collecting them, easy for hoarders. Eventually you could actually fill the order, you could make 2b and they receive 10000 copper serpentis tags.
There is another level to this scam as well to protect yourself from. Same scammer will have sell orders in different regions at 'reasonable' prices. I was 1000 short on some tags and found some in a few distant regions from Jita. I started buying the ones that wouldn't yield too much off a loss even though it would not be enough anyways but of course the scam buy order in Jita disappeared within minutes or even seconds of buying the ones in the other regions.
Scams repeat themselves so even if they stop for a year they'll resurface due to the lack of imagination.
Not sure there are any other scams that carry such a great risk to the scammer and our ability to make them pay.
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Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
93
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 21:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lucjan wrote:Pay attention to what you're doing and don't market pvp while drunk.
An obvious strategy to this scam could take years and a substantial investment but could eventually pay off. Beat them at their own game. Note the scams and what items they are looking for and start collecting them, easy for hoarders. Eventually you could actually fill the order, you could make 2b and they receive 10000 copper serpentis tags.
I don't think you understand how the scam works. The order can never be filled because the scammer does not have the isk to pay for it and the buy order is automatically canceled.
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Noriko Mai
340
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 08:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,
And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.
I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...
Hence, this is not a solution.
The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...
I don't get it. Margin traiding is for buy order or not? And if you say that at least the min buy order have to be in escrow it will fix the margin trading scam. If you have to put the money in escrow again after you bought something or the order will be closed. Or is there something i miss? |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
214
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 09:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,
And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.
I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...
Hence, this is not a solution.
The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...
I don't get it. Margin traiding is for buy order or not? And if you say that at least the min buy order have to be in escrow it will fix the margin trading scam. If you have to put the money in escrow again after you bought something or the order will be closed. Or is there something i miss?
I don't think it works like you think it works. You only put money in escrow when you put up the initial order. In this system there is nothing preventing the scammer to be the first buyer making the anti scam measure pointless. If you implement the system in a way that it constantly checks wallets and sucks money out of them, it will create additional stress for the market servers and reduce the usefulness of margin trading for legitimate traders. Not to mention the constant drain of isk from your wallet will be annoying and make planning you isk usage more complicated. Afterall the system needs to check every buy order in the game everytime it has any activity and pull more money from the players wallet. It could be possible, but I don't think it's worth the cost and hassle. The additional stress, if it would even cause any, is a total non-issue compared to the inconvenience it causes though.
Lets look at the whole situation from the grand perspective. The current situation is actually pretty good. The scam does in no way negatively affect the larger game as it only works in a small margin of cases. It's also easy to spot and avoid by either knowing the market price of the items you're trading or looking closely at the buy orders. Even when the scam works it's just a case of someone buying an item for above the current market price, and let's be honest here, it only applies to traders and only to bad/greedy ones at that.
I'm sure there are ways to fix it, but every suggestion seems to be worse than the actual problem it tries to address. The scam is so minor and easily avoidable, that fixing it isn't worth inconveniencing legitimate traders in any way or reducing the usefulness of margin trading. |
Noriko Mai
340
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 10:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote: I don't think it works like you think it works. You only put money in escrow when you put up the initial order. In this system there is nothing preventing the scammer to be the first buyer making the anti scam measure pointless. If you implement the system in a way that it constantly checks wallets and sucks money out of them, it will create additional stress for the market servers and reduce the usefulness of margin trading for legitimate traders. Not to mention the constant drain of isk from your wallet will be annoying and make planning you isk usage more complicated. Afterall the system needs to check every buy order in the game everytime it has any activity and pull more money from the players wallet. It could be possible, but I don't think it's worth the cost and hassle.
Lets look at the whole situation from the grand perspective. The current situation is actually pretty good. The scam does in no way negatively affect the larger game as it only works in a small margin of cases. It's also easy to spot and avoid by either knowing the market price of the items you're trading or looking closely at the buy orders. Even when the scam works it's just a case of someone buying an item for above the current market price, and let's be honest here, it only applies to traders and only to bad/greedy ones at that.
I'm sure there are ways to fix it, but every suggestion seems to be worse than the actual problem it tries to address. The scam is so minor and easily avoidable, that fixing it isn't worth inconveniencing legitimate traders in any way or reducing the usefulness of margin trading.
I know how it works and it's not a problem for me. I only wanted to say that you can solve it with this simple addition to the escrow system. And I don't think it would create additional stress to the server. It simply moves the money for the minimum buy order or minimum escrow through margin trading from your wallet before it is filled.
Sure all the people here are 1337 hax0r uber pr0, but I think a lot of new players would benefit from it. There is no reason to make life in EvE more complicated that it is and I welcome every change that simplyfies EvE a bit. It's not about making it WoW in space. |
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