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Helmin Tweed
Great Awakening
0
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Posted - 2016.08.26 16:34:35 -
[1] - Quote
I am only 1 month into the game so this probably has an easy answer but here goes anyway
I am flying a Cormorant with 150mm railguns and antimatter ammo. Just doing lvl2 missions. Every now and then i hit a mission where the rats have webifiers and slow me down and orbit me at 1000m or less and i cant hit them. I warp out and come back to kite them. What do I need to do to kill them while slowed down? Have a shorter range weapon installed, different ammo?
Thanks
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Solecist Project
32547
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Posted - 2016.08.26 16:50:17 -
[2] - Quote
Move away from the asap? Fit an afterburner or a microwarpdrive.
You could fit webs yourself, too.
Or switch to blasters.
But in general, you're using a ship for long range with long range weapons.
What do you think, should you be close?
That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
8 Golden Rules of EVE
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Memphis Baas
1950
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Posted - 2016.08.26 17:03:11 -
[3] - Quote
There was an error while parsing this message. Reference code: 78c38 |
Helmin Tweed
Great Awakening
1
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Posted - 2016.08.26 17:04:36 -
[4] - Quote
I try to keep them at range but stuff happens and sometimes they get close. Using an afterburner but doesnt get me away so am going to try a microwarp drive. maybe the spped boost will help to slingshot me away. Want to figure out a way to get range back thats all. |
Memphis Baas
1950
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Posted - 2016.08.26 17:08:41 -
[5] - Quote
MWD is an oh-crap module, gives you nice speed but drains you dry in about 10 seconds. Also, it has high fitting requirements, which means you may have to get rid of some of the rails to install it. Might not work for PVE.
EDIT: NPC's are pre-programmed to MWD to you then orbit you at whatever close range they prefer to have. Short range ships work better than kiting, for PVE. But mostly, people just use missiles or drones, because you get equal effectiveness at all ranges, and as a bonus you can pick the type of damage that your missile or drone does, to impact the NPC's defense weaknesses.
EDIT2: Rails (long range) with antimatter ammo (shortened range) is "missing the point" a little bit. |
Memphis Baas
1950
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Posted - 2016.08.26 17:14:23 -
[6] - Quote
Don't band-aid your tool, use a different tool. If you absolutely are set on destroyers, use the missiles one. Takes a couple hours to train light missile launcher. |
Helmin Tweed
Great Awakening
1
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Posted - 2016.08.26 17:19:55 -
[7] - Quote
Thanks for the advice. Been wanting to try missiles out so have been training those skills already. So many things to train and cant do them all at once. |
Pandora Carrollon
Dawn of a New Horizon The Republic.
609
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Posted - 2016.08.26 17:28:17 -
[8] - Quote
You're given good advice but I can help you with something else as I was actually a heavy rail user myself. I know exactly of what you speak.
Sites are far easier to run on rails than missions. Missions you frequently don't get a choice where you drop in. If you want to say on rails and do missions, you need to IMMEDIATELY align to either the entry gate that launched you there, or some other direction away from the targets and hit afterburner. Dump the MWD, those are the surest way to get your destroyer plastered by larger ships as they increase your signature size 500%. Go AB for a mission runner.
Mission ships usually take a few seconds to react to you so if you start moving away from them ASAP you'll get enough range to take them down before they can zoom in on you and get in under your rails.
Now, if you can keep them at 5,000 then antimatter will take them down nicely, just keep burning away from them as they cannot 'orbit' you at that point and they are in a tail chase, which means they have little to no relative motion from you and that means your turrets will happily track them and reduce them to dust bunnies.
You can switch to blasters, as has been stated, but you do need to fit an effective regenerating tank which I think is shield on a Cormorant. That will kill your capacitor and you will need to fit some kind of capacitor regen systems which also tend to fill mid slots, (but there are some low ones too) thus it's not a great fit on shield ships. Armor destroyers tend to do better with this combination than shield ones which is why Memphis is directing you to missiles.
Gallente ships do about the best with the hybrid turrets. Caldari are more missile focused... but that's just in general terms. You can always find some ship in a race to do what you like to do relatively okay, but it may not be the best one at it.
Memphis is also right about moving up to a cruiser. You lose a little speed but get A LOT more power. Destroyers are really frigate killers. They can kill NPC Cruisers and even take on NPC battlecruisers if they are fit and flown properly. They don't have enough dps to kill an NPC battleship with regen abilities.
8 Golden Rules of EVE GÇó EVE is entirely PvP
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10561
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Posted - 2016.08.26 17:28:27 -
[9] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Rails (long range) with antimatter ammo (shortened range) is "missing the point" a little bit. I think this is the biggest issue.
Antimatter ammo cuts the range of your guns by 50%. This means you have to get closer to a target to deal damage... which means that you will have more problems tracking targets (due to Railguns being a "long range" weapon).
I would suggest switching to Lead ammo as it does not affect your weapon's range and has the added bonus of cutting capacitor consumption by 50%. The tradeoff is that it will deal half as much damage as Antimatter does.
This means that you may have an NPC or two that you can't kill due to low damage output. For this reason, keep a small stash of Antimatter ammo in your cargohold to finish these NPCs off (after you have killed everything else).
Also... what is your fit OP? It may be that your fit is not exactly optimal and could use some "refining."
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Helmin Tweed
Great Awakening
1
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Posted - 2016.08.26 17:51:28 -
[10] - Quote
[Cormorant, cormorant2] Damage Control I Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Small Clarity Ward Booster I 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Upgraded Thermal Dissipation Amplifier I
150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S Salvager I [empty high slot]
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
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Memphis Baas
1951
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Posted - 2016.08.26 18:09:52 -
[11] - Quote
125mm Railgun tracks slightly better than 150, and will probably use less power grid allowing you to install 7 instead of 6. For slightly more total damage (and the better tracking). Also, instead of the straight up Tech 1 version, try to use the cheapest "meta" you can find (it will have better stats).
Damage Control, personally I'd replace that with a second magnetic field stabilizer, for more damage.
Forget about the Salvager; bookmark a wreck in each pocket, and come back later with full salvagers and tractors in all high slots. Put in a short range rocket launcher to deal with those webifier drones or whatever caused the problem in your first post. With the salvager gone, the cpu rig may even become unnecessary.
Shield tanks are meant to be over-sized, so try a Medium Clarity Ward booster, instead of a small. |
Helmin Tweed
Great Awakening
1
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Posted - 2016.08.26 18:29:56 -
[12] - Quote
thank you very much. I will give this a try.
[Cormorant, cormorant3] Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Upgraded Thermal Dissipation Amplifier I Medium Clarity Ward Booster I
125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S 125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S 125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S 125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S 125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S 125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S 125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S Rocket Launcher I, Scourge Rocket
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I [empty rig slot]
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10561
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Posted - 2016.08.26 18:32:17 -
[13] - Quote
I will echo Memphis' comment on the guns.
125s would be a better choice as they do not consume as much CPU and Powergrid (allowing you to fit more and better stuff in other slots).
Loaded with Lead ammo... you should be able to engage things from ~15 km away.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Helmin Tweed
Great Awakening
1
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Posted - 2016.08.26 18:36:29 -
[14] - Quote
with the antimatter my max was 20 km. will see once i get it put together what range the lead gives me |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6359
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Posted - 2016.08.26 18:39:12 -
[15] - Quote
You should be able to kite with an afterburner. You are probably gonna do nearly 600 m/s - 1000 m/s (wild guess).
My Raven (slow battleship) can kite with an afterburner all but fast Angels in level 4 missions.
Don't wait until you are in a bad spot. Keep moving from the moment you enter the room. Anything that can web you is a priority target; try to kill them before they reach web range. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10561
|
Posted - 2016.08.26 18:44:18 -
[16] - Quote
Helmin Tweed wrote:with the antimatter my max was 20 km. will see once i get it put together what range the lead gives me Oooooooo... I see the problem.
Okay... so... you have 2 ranges on all turrets: Optimal and Falloff.
Optimal range is where you can potentially deal full damage to a target.
Falloff range starts at the end of optimal range. The thing about Falloff is that the further into Falloff range you are, the less damage you will deal. Once you are at the end of Falloff range, you will be dealing little to no damage.
The "sweet spot" you are trying to aim for is between the edge of optimal range and 50% into falloff range.
The reason you want to be at this place is because it offers the best "damage-to-application" ratio. In other words; you should be far enough away that you can track a target (see: application) and close enough to be dealing a decent amount of damage.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Helmin Tweed
Great Awakening
1
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Posted - 2016.08.26 18:50:51 -
[17] - Quote
with the 150mm railgun and lead ammo my falloff range is 33km and optimal is 26km. so I want to be 26-30 km away at all times |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10561
|
Posted - 2016.08.26 18:52:51 -
[18] - Quote
Helmin Tweed wrote:with the 150mm railgun and lead ammo my falloff range is 33km and optimal is 26km. so I want to be 26-30 km away at all times 23 to 28 actually. You don't want to go too deep into falloff (due to damage penalties).
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Helmin Tweed
Great Awakening
1
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Posted - 2016.08.26 19:00:49 -
[19] - Quote
thanks very helpful |
Demolishar
United Aggression
1141
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Posted - 2016.08.26 20:03:06 -
[20] - Quote
This thread is adorable. |
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6361
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Posted - 2016.08.26 22:07:03 -
[21] - Quote
As a rough estimate, you never want to be closer than optimal range, because then you may have tracking issues.
Railguns are optimized for max range. They are low DPS, lower than all other turrets, at shorter ranges.
I actually recommend trying to stay between optimal + 1/4 falloff and optimal +1/2 falloff for best results. The difference is 1/4 falloff for maneuvring room! When in doubt, optimal + 1/4 falloff is always fine.
Compare with projectiles which have HUGE falloff and a shorter optimal. They are optimized for a much wider range, at the penalty of lower damage than rails at the far end of the range. They are always used in falloff.
Compare with lasers, which have a tiny falloff and long optimal. They are used within optimal range, but again, near the end of optimal. Not much room for maneuvering. Scorch ammo has such amazing long optimal that tracking isn't an issue at shorter ranges than optimal. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1596
|
Posted - 2016.08.26 22:28:05 -
[22] - Quote
Helmin Tweed wrote:Thanks for the advice. Been wanting to try missiles out so have been training those skills already. So many things to train and cant do them all at once. With the way skills train in this game you pretty much can train everything at once. I mean it only takes minutes to train level 1 of most skills. Sure some stuff takes a bit to train the skills to unlock it but when we are talking small racial ship and weapons skills those can all be trained to level 3 in almost no time.
I strongly recommend training up all 4 races ship and weapons skills to level 3 right off the bat then focusing on generic / support skills for a bit. This will give you a chance to try out all the different: ship, weapons, tank and piloting types / styles. It will even get you access to the pirate faction frigates.
None of this is written in stone hard rules but generally speaking, and staying just withing hybrid weapons, Galente ships tend to be better at blasters and the up close fighting style as well as armor tank and Caldari tend to be better at long range / railgun fighting styles and shield tanks. Just that one extra race opens up a fair amount of variety.
Add onto that the ability to try out lazors, projectiles and speed tank as well as fly the Astero and this gives you a great chance to try out a lot of different aspects of this game and find your own personal style. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6361
|
Posted - 2016.08.26 22:37:11 -
[23] - Quote
It takes roughly 47 days to train all ships, turrets, missiles, and weapon support skills to level 3.
That also includes all navy, faction / pirate ships.
Of course, you will want additional skills to be competent, like armor tanking, shield tanking, drones, fitting ... |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1596
|
Posted - 2016.08.26 22:47:20 -
[24] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:125mm Railgun tracks slightly better than 150, and will probably use less power grid allowing you to install 7 instead of 6. For slightly more total damage (and the better tracking). Also, instead of the straight up Tech 1 version, try to use the cheapest "meta" you can find (it will have better stats).
Damage Control, personally I'd replace that with a second magnetic field stabilizer, for more damage.
Forget about the Salvager; bookmark a wreck in each pocket, and come back later with full salvagers and tractors in all high slots. Put in a short range rocket launcher to deal with those webifier drones or whatever caused the problem in your first post. With the salvager gone, the cpu rig may even become unnecessary.
Shield tanks are meant to be over-sized, so try a Medium Clarity Ward booster, instead of a small. I just want to back up what Memphis is saying here.
In PvE as a general rule you don't want to go with the biggest gun especially when it comes to longer range weapons and for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is improved tracking. Tracking is a huge deal in this game and you don't want to get hung up on the damage numbers that you see in EFT. Certainly if you don't have the fitting skills to fill all of your turret hardpoints or are having to use fitting mods just to fit the larger guns you'll want to down size.
With regards to the extra low slot when you drop the DCU you might want to also try out a low slot tracking enhancer and see which works out for you. The TE will give you both better range and better tracking.
I also agree with dumping the salvager. If you try to fit a ship to do a little of everything it won't do any of it well. For a missioning ship you want to focus on a fit that completes the mission as quickly as possible and then come back to the bookmark and salvage in a ship set up to do that very well or just ignore the wrecks and burn through missions as quickly as possible.
I also want to second going up in meta from meta zero as meta zero are not dropped by NPCs and are used for the manufacture of T2 variants so typically cost significantly more than higher meta modules which are usually much better in every way. |
Solecist Project
32572
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Posted - 2016.08.26 23:53:14 -
[25] - Quote
It's odd, because i can't confirm this at all.
Thrasher, cynabal and cane all 280s or 720s ... ... and I've tried 1200s vs 1400s and the only difference for me is RoF.
Though of course the 1400s deal more damage and have radditional range.
I never had tracking problems..
What are you guys talking about?
That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
8 Golden Rules of EVE
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1597
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 00:19:34 -
[26] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:It's odd, because i can't confirm this at all.
Thrasher, cynabal and cane all 280s or 720s ... ... and I've tried 1200s vs 1400s and the only difference for me is RoF.
Though of course the 1400s deal more damage and have radditional range.
I never had tracking problems..
What are you guys talking about? To me atty are probably the best example of this. I have fairly extensive experience with Atty on a Mael and some what medium atty on various medium platforms.
1400s have half the clip size and with the huge reload times of atties means you almost have to reload before you start shooting at any ship if there is even a question of if you might wind up having to reload during the kill. 10 seconds is enough time for an NPC to regen huge amounts of tank.
Also with the insane Alpha damage combined with equally insanely long cycle times means lots of overkill and overkill = wasted DPS. Some of this can be mitigated with ungrouping of weapons but having to click on 8 individual turrets can also add noticeable amounts of time to how long it takes to kill an NPC.
The tracking difference between 1400s and 1200s may not look like much on paper but from my experience it winds up being a huge difference in actual delivered damage unless you are shooting at a mission structure. I don't expect anyone to believe me on this. Try both out for yourself and have damage notifications up so you can see the difference in quality of hits.
My experiences with 720s versus 650s on medium ships were very similar.
As far as 1400s "dealing more damage" I think that is a misleading thing to say especially in the NC Q&A. Paper dps and actual landed DPS are confused enough as it is. The only DPS that really matters is the DPS that you land. EFT numbers mean nothing if you are missing half of your shots and getting glancing blows for most of the rest.
Bounty ticks running anoms is one of the best ways to determine actual landed DPS averages over time, at least that i have found. Using a stop watch on various NPCs can work but it is much less accurate and a lot more work. Just watching outgoing damage notifications and coming up with a general "feel" can be useful. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1597
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 00:22:19 -
[27] - Quote
Another note to the OP. Depending on the NPC and their programmed orbit range, there are times when running strait at the NPC can reduce transversal more than running away from them. |
Solecist Project
32575
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 00:30:30 -
[28] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Solecist Project wrote:It's odd, because i can't confirm this at all.
Thrasher, cynabal and cane all 280s or 720s ... ... and I've tried 1200s vs 1400s and the only difference for me is RoF.
Though of course the 1400s deal more damage and have radditional range.
I never had tracking problems..
What are you guys talking about? To me atty are probably the best example of this. I have fairly extensive experience with Atty on a Mael and some what medium atty on various medium platforms. 1400s have half the clip size and with the huge reload times of atties means you almost have to reload before you start shooting at any ship if there is even a question of if you might wind up having to reload during the kill. 10 seconds is enough time for an NPC to regen huge amounts of tank. Also with the insane Alpha damage combined with equally insanely long cycle times means lots of overkill and overkill = wasted DPS. Some of this can be mitigated with ungrouping of weapons but having to click on 8 individual turrets can also add noticeable amounts of time to how long it takes to kill an NPC. The tracking difference between 1400s and 1200s may not look like much on paper but from my experience it winds up being a huge difference in actual delivered damage unless you are shooting at a mission structure. I don't expect anyone to believe me on this. Try both out for yourself and have damage notifications up so you can see the difference in quality of hits. My experiences with 720s versus 650s on medium ships were very similar. As far as 1400s "dealing more damage" I think that is a misleading thing to say especially in the NC Q&A. Paper dps and actual landed DPS are confused enough as it is. The only DPS that really matters is the DPS that you land. EFT numbers mean nothing if you are missing half of your shots and getting glancing blows for most of the rest. Bounty ticks running anoms is one of the best ways to determine actual landed DPS averages over time, at least that i have found. Using a stop watch on various NPCs can work but it is much less accurate and a lot more work. Just watching outgoing damage notifications and coming up with a general "feel" can be useful. You're flying the ship wrong. I can assure you none of your problems are mine.
In missions you have to ungroup your artillery for best effect. They're seriously easy to follow, especially as long as you chainlock and just pick easy targets off with a single turret. Thanks to the range and speed it's easy not to get killed as well. I've used this approach successfully with thrashers, cynabals, lokis, hurricanes and tornados. Yes, no battleships.
Tracking issues can be solved by TC and TP and adapting range/tracking via ammo if necessary. Agility, velocity and utility are more important than local tank.
Using a 280mm thrasher in a lvl3 might take a while, but it's fun! Using a high rof 720mm faction turret to run other people's lvl4s faster than them is hilarious!
Using 1400s is a matter of locking and hovering the finger above the F-key. Assigning turrets individually tomtargets is child's play and mere practise.
I should do this again...
That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
8 Golden Rules of EVE
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Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
28
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Posted - 2016.08.27 08:00:23 -
[29] - Quote
Re: optimal, falloff, and how they relate to damage. Not countimg grazing shots from high radial velocities, at optimal range your turrets will apply 100% of your paper dps. At optimal + falloff (simply listed as falloff in the tooltip), they can deal 50% of max damage. That means if your optimal is 20 km and falloff is listed as 40km in the tooltip, you will deal 100% dps at 20 km, 75% dps at 30 km, and 50% at 40 km. At 50 km, you will deal 25% damage, and zero at 60 km.
Radial velocity (which is critical to tracking) increases extremely quickly the closer a target orbits, so if you have to move to your falloff distance to apply damage, you might want to use longer range ammo.
Since this discussion is aimed at destroyers, and therefore small turrets i won't get into signature resolution.
If you are serious about using turrets, get motion prediction to level 4 asap, and to 5 as soon as you can really.
Implant slot 7 should always have a motion prediction hardwiring. As i recall, the 3% is fairly cheap.
Depending on the difference in velocity capabilities of the ships exchanging fire, and current distances involved, approach, or keep at distance will be more effective at reducing the radial speed of a target to where your turrets will hit, just be careful not to approach rats that are know to web.
With the range bonus of the cormorant, using a mwd or ab to quickly move to 25-30 km from the closest rats on a course that doesnt take you closer to any rats should reduce all incoming damage from frigates, as well as force aggressed rats to fly towards you with low transversal.
Maintain your distance, if you don't lock or approach mission rats, they may stay passive until you agress them. Once you warp in, immediately plot a course to get you as far from the rats as quickly as possible. This might also be straight up or down. Target only what aggresses you, and focus on getting away from and returning fire on these rats.
It is rough at first, but once your skills train and you understand how to pilot to stay alive it gets a lot easier.
my other nano is a polycarb
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1597
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 10:57:45 -
[30] - Quote
Nikea Tiber wrote:Re: optimal, falloff, and how they relate to damage. Not countimg grazing shots from high radial velocities, at optimal range your turrets will apply 100% of your paper dps. At optimal + falloff (simply listed as falloff in the tooltip), they can deal 50% of max damage. That means if your optimal is 20 km and falloff is listed as 40km in the tooltip, you will deal 100% dps at 20 km, 75% dps at 30 km, and 50% at 40 km. At 50 km, you will deal 25% damage, and zero at 60 km.
I don't think this math is correct. There are turrets that have a lower number in falloff than in optimal so it's optimal + falloff = half damage distance. So in the above example at 60 Km ( 20 + 40 or optimal + falloff ) you would deal half damage.
Otherwise great post. |
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