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Bentus Kushani
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Posted - 2007.05.22 12:23:00 -
[241]
After having observed this thread for a long time, I have a statement to make. It would be better at this point to work out the relative effects of each components and work out common sets of invention decryptors/metalevel/skill, because we're not going to work out the formula magically anytime soon. Example - Skill 4/3/3 - Metalevel 1 - Installation Guide - 10/16 = 62.5%
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ShadowRat
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Posted - 2007.05.22 14:41:00 -
[242]
Edited by: ShadowRat on 22/05/2007 14:43:44 Bah... again: (Maybe this time someone analyze it and share taughts) (Diference from last my post with it is that I send interface (modyficator and wirite is simply as I can :)) (BASIC VERSIOBN FORMULA!- USE ON YOUR OWN. FOR % USE SR%) (WARNING: THIS IS ONLY MY CLOUDED MATH & HIPOTESE) (I DO NOT PRETEND THAT IS THE ONLY ONE FORMULA) (I JUST HAVE FUN WITH MATH - and... if this works :P) (You can give me a beer) ------------------------------------------------------
SR= (1+(2*Enc + skill + skill2)/100)*I_TYPE + (DECR_MOD -1)/10 + (META_LEV_MOD -1)/10 SR%= (SR-1)*100%
DECR_MOD: same as decryptor says .. from 0.4 to 1.3
I_TYPE: interface type ship ->1.0 mod1 ->1.3 mod2 ->1.6
META_LEV_MOD: no item ->1.00 1 meta ->1.05 2 meta ->1.10 3 meta ->1.15 4 meta ->1.20
If this is NOT easy .. I give up :P
For some reason and tuning purpose I use same formula but with this set of parameters: I_TYPE: ship ->1.03 mod1 ->1.3 mod2 ->1.58
META_LEV_MOD: no item ->1 1 meta ->1.04 2 meta ->1.08 3 meta ->1.12 4 meta ->1.16
Have nice day...
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Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.05.22 16:58:00 -
[243]
Wow, still going.
Took some time off from invention to get a capital program up and running, after scoring that hulk 10-run. Been dabbling with SPR IIs, cap recharger IIs, MSM IIs, and covert cloaks in the interim. Module invention has very healthy success rates. Some failures, but it's to be expected.
I'll be checking out drone/ammo invention on SiSi over the next few days. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
Haldir Ravenclaw
Ordo Occultus Deus Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.22 20:13:00 -
[244]
Hi all.
Been following this thread pretty much since the first couple of posts, and has shed light on alot of missing information. I'm about to try out invention on SiSi, but that depends on when the next mirror is as right now on test server I don't have the skills while on the main server I do, just the fact that we dismantled our POS and thus means I have nowhere to make blueprint copies! Of course, I can drag them into 0.0 where I can use them there... hopefully.
Hopefully be able to compile a nice list of data on various bpc's and be able to list them here in time. I just hope the next mirror is sometime soon so I can start testing (not another 'invent yet more hulks' invention testing)!
Regards, Haldir
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Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.05.22 20:51:00 -
[245]
That the POS is dismantled is of no relevance; pos's aren't mirrored to Singularity to prevent spying.
Spend a few thousand ISK and buy another POS setup with a ton of labs. It takes about 2 hours or so to get everything up and running, but its well worth it to accelerate testing. 100isk modules ftw :) ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
Daerkannon Shimmerscale
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.25 21:59:00 -
[246]
Bumping this thread because it's far more important than the garbage being spewed onto the forums atm.
Need more people testing! (BTW, current results suggest that a meta-level 0 item has no effect on invention chances, but I'll post my final results when I've reached 400 attempts) --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs! |
Ragnor Dayton
Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.29 14:33:00 -
[247]
Ship Invention
Skills 4,3,4 Decrypter x1.3 Datacore 8
6 of 21 successful 28.57%
Decrypter x0.4 Datacore 2
1 of 8 successful 12.5%
Currently 82 of 171 with 3,3,3 no decrypter, level 2/3 meta item on modules ------------------------------------------------ Just because your not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! |
Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.05.29 15:22:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Vladimir Tinakin on 29/05/2007 15:21:40
Originally by: Ragnor Dayton Ship Invention
Skills 4,3,4 Decrypter x1.3 Datacore 8
6 of 21 successful 28.57%
Decrypter x0.4 Datacore 2
1 of 8 successful 12.5%
Currently 82 of 171 with 3,3,3 no decrypter, level 2/3 meta item on modules
Did you use a ship as a base item? ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
William Alex
Caldari Viscosity Dark Synergy
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:25:00 -
[249]
I realise that interest in this has slowed and as a result we've seen a lot less activity in this, however I do have a question that maybe one of you can help me with.
Has there been conclusive proof that using a t1 ship in 'ship' invention increases your chance for success. If so then has the increase been deduced? Don't feed the trolls. Thank you - The Establishment. |
Daerkannon Shimmerscale
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:38:00 -
[250]
Originally by: William Alex Has there been conclusive proof that using a t1 ship in 'ship' invention increases your chance for success. If so then has the increase been deduced?
There has been no conclusive proof that I've seen. In fact my tests suggest it may have no affect at all. I'm currently at attempt 170 out of 400 planned and my success rate is dead on for testing without a meta-item.
Now granted I'm testing on modules, but I have no reason to believe that meta-items behave differently for ships than they do for modules. A T1 basic item (cap rechargers in my case) has the same meta-level as a T1 basic ship. --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs! |
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Chruker
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:34:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Daerkannon Shimmerscale Now granted I'm testing on modules, but I have no reason to believe that meta-items behave differently for ships than they do for modules. A T1 basic item (cap rechargers in my case) has the same meta-level as a T1 basic ship.
Well, the reason for a different handling of meta-level with the ship interface could be the lack of named ships (ie. ships with meta-levels other the 0).
But then again, how should a build item help the invention process, when your already using the blueprint for it. How much could studying that item really help? Vs. how much studying an already improved version (named tech 1) could help.
----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online ----- Top wishes: - No daily downtime - Faster training on sisi - Updated data export - Speedup IGB table rendering |
Black Atom
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:41:00 -
[252]
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Ship Number of datacores from one group: 8 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): 0.4 Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 0/1 No idea if ships have meta levels Attempts: 22 Successes: 0
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Data Number of datacores from one group: 2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): none Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 3 Attempts: 100 Successes: 66
The ship was a vagabond, item was cargo expanders.
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Vanye Inovske
Two Brothers Mining Corp. The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:46:00 -
[253]
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Data Number of datacores from one group: 2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): 1.3x Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): none Attempts: 84 Successes: 46 (55%)
Additional data: currently running at 42% attempts going to cov ops, 58% to improved. The success rate on each type is within a couple percent. For a while I was convinced that the odds of a job having cov ops as potential output was below 50%, but I'm starting to wonder if I didn't just have a couple runs of crappy luck.
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Black Atom
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.29 23:55:00 -
[254]
For the record I'm using 1 run stabber BPC's for my invention attempts.. is that whats screwing my attempts? 22 seems unusually high.. :(
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Vanye Inovske
Two Brothers Mining Corp. The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.05.30 00:42:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Black Atom For the record I'm using 1 run stabber BPC's for my invention attempts.. is that whats screwing my attempts? 22 seems unusually high.. :(
I sincerely doubt it. 22 failures to make a vaga suck, to be sure, but by my calculation if the actual chance of success is 10% then the antecedent probability of 22 consecutive failures is 9.8%, if the actual chance of success is 15%, then the probability of 22 fails is 2.8%. Very unlucky, but not astronomically so.
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Black Atom
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.30 02:14:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Vanye Inovske
Originally by: Black Atom For the record I'm using 1 run stabber BPC's for my invention attempts.. is that whats screwing my attempts? 22 seems unusually high.. :(
I sincerely doubt it. 22 failures to make a vaga suck, to be sure, but by my calculation if the actual chance of success is 10% then the antecedent probability of 22 consecutive failures is 9.8%, if the actual chance of success is 15%, then the probability of 22 fails is 2.8%. Very unlucky, but not astronomically so.
Alright coo, another 10 in the oven :P Heres hoping...
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Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.05.30 15:42:00 -
[257]
Yeah, I had the same issue with hulks. Basically, stick in a bunch of 1-run BPCs, use the +9 run decryptor, and try not to look at the bottom line...eventually you'll get lucky and score a 10-run BPC.
I did not use a covetor for most of the attempts, since that took a 35M job and bumped it to a 55M attempt. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
Ostine Vadonk
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Posted - 2007.05.31 07:23:00 -
[258]
Edited by: Ostine Vadonk on 31/05/2007 07:23:46 Edited by: Ostine Vadonk on 31/05/2007 07:22:40 Doublepost
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Ostine Vadonk
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Posted - 2007.05.31 07:24:00 -
[259]
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Data Number of datacores from one group: 2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): none Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 1 Attempts: 20 Successes: 10
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Data Number of datacores from one group: 2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): none Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 2 Attempts: 10 Successes: 7
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Data Number of datacores from one group: 2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): none Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 4 Attempts: 24 Successes: 19
All on Tranquility after 1.4.2 patch. Not enough data to draw any conclutions yet.
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Asuraz Ikanbe
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Posted - 2007.05.31 08:00:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Asuraz Ikanbe on 31/05/2007 08:00:23 I have only done 2 invention jobs so far , so my sample size is way too small to draw any conclusions.
Both were from an ME32 PE10 Ferox BPC with all relevant skills at level 4 and a base item (Ferox) being used plus the best "chance" decryptor also being used (sorry can't remember it's name and I have no access to EVE atm)
Results were; 1 - a failed attempt at a Vulture BPC (the decryptors for this job were still in the hanger after the job, so I guess I screwed the setup on that job up) 2- a 4 run Nighthawk BPC ME-9 PE-4 (I think the ME/PE figures are right, trying to drag it from memory)
My question is, do we have anything resembling a definitive-ish idea yet whether we need to use the relevant ship as the base item when trying to invent ships?
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Fleske
NED Holdings
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Posted - 2007.05.31 12:31:00 -
[261]
Did 20 inventions on stabber 15 run BPC me:0 pe:0. Skills 5/5/5. 0.4 change and +9 run decryptor. Used a stabber with each invention. 2 succes 18 failed.
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Black Atom
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.31 17:37:00 -
[262]
For comedic purposes I'll update...
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Ship Number of datacores from one group: 8 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): 0.4 Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 0/1 No idea if ships have meta levels Attempts: 29 Successes: 0
I think I'm on a roll :P BTW this is getting kind of ridiculous :(
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RoundupGang
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Posted - 2007.06.01 14:32:00 -
[263]
The guide to invention stickied mentions the amount of runs in the bpc having an effect on the outcome. However, there doesn't seem to be a consensus that it does here. And I think I remember an earlier post (too lazy to go back and find it) saying that they had the results with a 1 run bpcs as maxrun bpcs. Has there been any resolution to this?
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Kazuo Ishiguro
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Posted - 2007.06.01 14:57:00 -
[264]
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 01/06/2007 14:56:48
Originally by: RoundupGang The guide to invention stickied mentions the amount of runs in the bpc having an effect on the outcome. However, there doesn't seem to be a consensus that it does here. And I think I remember an earlier post (too lazy to go back and find it) saying that they had the results with a 1 run bpcs as maxrun bpcs. Has there been any resolution to this?
For modules, a max run input BPC gets you a 10 run output BPC - one run per 10% of max runs for that BPO on the copy, rounded down (this is before any decryptor bonuses). For ships, however, you never get more than one run on the output BPC unless you use a decryptor that gives a bonus to the number of runs. This information is not too hard to find if you look around a little ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking |
Rooky2001
Caldarians Pride Te-Ka
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Posted - 2007.06.02 16:55:00 -
[265]
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Data Number of datacores from one group: 2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): none Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): various Attempts: 67 Successes: 55.22%
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Chruker
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Posted - 2007.06.03 12:39:00 -
[266]
Has anybody noticed that the waste factor on the invented blueprints doesn't follow the normal waste factor formula? ----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online ----- Top wishes: - No daily downtime - Faster training on sisi - Updated data export - Speedup IGB table rendering |
Black Atom
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.03 18:45:00 -
[267]
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Ship Number of datacores from one group: 8 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): 0.4 Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 0/1 No idea if ships have meta levels Attempts: 40 Successes: 0
I think this is absoutely ridiclous :( Either I have the worst luck in the world or somehow bugged horribly.
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:34:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Chruker Has anybody noticed that the waste factor on the invented blueprints doesn't follow the normal waste factor formula?
Yes.
Read all about it on the site linked in the Invention Indtroduction Guide sticky in this forum. You will find it last in the Advanced Topics part.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Aykido
Gallente Lobster of Babel
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Posted - 2007.06.04 12:24:00 -
[269]
Invention Formulae (my guess)
Base chance: Ship 20% Rig 30% module 40%
Skill modifier (Add as multiplier to base chance). Encryption skill 5% per level Relevant science skills increase the effect of the encryption skill by 10% per level. skill combo of 4/4/4 gives 39,2% increase in chance. skill combo of 5/5/5 gives 56,25% increase in chance.
Decryptors (only "known" variable) range of -60% to +30% chance modifier. Unless coldfront figures have been tweaked since the last data dump.
Base item works as negating the penalty of not having one. penalty is -25% for ships, -30% for rigs and -35% for modules. Meta level 0 gives penalies of -20%, -24% and -28%. Higher meta levels are only for modules. Meta level 1 gives penalties of -21% . Meta level 2 gives penalty of -14%, Meta level 3 gives penalties of -7% and meta level 4 incures no base item penalty.
With this formula, a max skilled character inventing a module with best decryptor (+30%) and best named item (-0%) will have a 81,25% chance of success. (4 out of 5).
This would explain the failure rate we have on strip miners and cov-op cloaks. Giving a max success rate of 63,47% (3 out of 5). Strips with Test reports and 4/4/4 skill combo would have 47,85% success rate.
Inventing a ship with a +9 run decryptor and max skills would give 10% max chance on invention (10,41% using a built T1 ship as base item).
Inventing a ship with a +30%/+4run decryptor and max skills would result in 32,5% success rate (or 33,85% with a built ship).
Of all the inventions we have done with N>50 we are within a +/-5% error margin. Our Hulk inventions seem to fall far short of the 9% or so we anticipated with our skill set. but our N is just at 30 so not statistically accurate. Has anyone collected all the reported data in this thread? Have people seen lower success rates the more datacores there are used for the job?
Selling PERFECT PRINTS of 674 of the 730 seeded T1 BPOs: Ships, modules, rigs, drones, ammo, probes, components and capital mods, drones & ammo. (Cap Ships, Cap Components and Outposts 2007/2008) |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.06.04 13:08:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Aykido Invention Formulae
I think you are getting close.
But!
I am not ready to accept that the formula is aware of the job "type" (ship/mod/rig). When I see a formula only based the "reverse engeneering" chance, i'll be happy. (And you are nearly there. Actually it could be modified to be exactly like that with very little efford.)
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
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