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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 20:02:45 In my opinion, the Brutix and the Myrmidon have a problem. The Myrmidon is a very flexible ship. It is probably also a little overpowered. As a result, it obsoletes the Brutix.
Gun ships, drone ships, and flexibility Along the Gallente line of T1 ships prior to the introduction of the new battlecruisers, we see a pattern:
Cruisers: Vexor: Drone ship, fewer slots (5/3/4, 4 turret point) Thorax: Gun ship, more slots (5/3/5, 5 turret points)
Battleships: Dominix: Drone ship, fewer slots (6/5/7, 6 turrets) Megathron: Gun ship, more slots (8/4/7, 7 turrets)
Amarr cruisers should be mentioned, due to Arbitrator: Arbitrator: Drone ships, fewer slots (4/4/4, 2 turrets) Maller: Gun ship, more slots (6/3/6, 4 turrets)
Gun ships need many high slots and many low slots. Low slots are used for tank, damage mods, and tracking. High slot use is obvious.
Drone ships exude flexibility. Their primary weapons don't use slots. They don't need low slots to perform damage-wise. These ships are about utility. High slot utility, low slot can be dedicated to tank, and mid slot utility.
Now, compare the Brutix and the Myrmidon: Brutix: 7/4/5 (7 turrets) Myrmidon: 6/5/6 (6 turrets)
What's wrong with this picture?
The Mymidon obsoletes the Brutix in terms of DPS AND tank AND utility. NOT cool. Now - the Dominix CAN be made to obsolete the Megathron DPS-wise, but it makes significant sacrifices, due to its significantly lower PG. It also requires high quality gear to do so. I don't see why the Myrmidon and Brutix should be any different. I fly a Myrmidon with tech 2 electron blasters and 5x Ogre Is (drone interfacing 5) and it WELL outdamages my Brutix. My Mydmidon tanks better, i fit dual webs, and does better damage. WTF? I'm not saying that I dislike my Myrmidon... but I would rather fly a gunship!
Solution The Brutix and the Myrmidon's difference need to be looked at. In my opinion: - The Brutix should have more low slots than the Myrmidon - The Myrmidon should have more mid slots than the Brutix - The Brutix should have far more high slots than the Myrmidon
Now take note: I'm going on the principle here that the gunship should be the "tier 2", and the droneship should be the "tier 1". I DO NOT like the idea that "tier 2" is "better" than "tier 1". I don't think the devs ever specifically said that this should be the case (and certainly there are plenty of instances where this IS NOT THE CASE), but they DO seem to adhere to a "higher tier implies more slots" paradigm. I'd also like to see the ships have different roles! Thus:
THE following concepts AREN'T FINAL. I know the direction I want these ships to move in, but I'm not 100% sure of the stats I'd like to see
Brutix Tier 2 Highs: 8 high slots (7 turrets) Mids: 4 Lows: 6 (adjust PG/CPU accordingly) Bonus 1: 5% medium hybrid damage bonus Bonus 2: I'm not sure. If the 7.5% extra rep bonus is OK for the "old" Myrmidon it is probably ok for the "new" Brutix too. I'd love to see some sort of more gun-related bonus here though.
Myrmidon Tier 1 Highs: 5 (AT MOST 4 turret points) Mids: 5 Lows: 5 (adjust PG/CPU accordingly, but have less PG/CPU than the Brutix) Bonus 1: Drone damage bonus Bonus 2: I'm not sure, really...
(I also wish there was a way to increase the Myrmidon's drone bay. The fact that it can field 5 ogres and 6 medium guns is already over the top... but this IS a drone ship.)
Another idea: Why not an ewar ship? Buff the Brutix to "tier 2" level (perhaps just like above) Make the Myrmidon an ewar ship. I would absolutely LOVE to see this.
Myrmidon: Highs: 5 or 4 Mids: 6 or 7 Lows: 5 (Decrease drone bay to 50) Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis) Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus
Honestly I'm not sure whether this is overpowered or not... Maybe drop a midslot? I just would really love to have another Gallente ewar ship. I want to see different roles for these ships!
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:05:00 -
[2]
Reserved \o/
And... first!
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:08:00 -
[3]
Maybe another reserved, just in case this actually goes anywhere
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Fraile Cloudsinger
Gallente Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:08:00 -
[4]
Tier 2 > Tier 1
If you got decent gunnery skills, take the brutix, if you got decent drone skills take the myrmidon. The myrmidon is also more expencive. Compare the other Tier 1 and Tier 2 battlecruisers and you'll see a pattern..Leave the myrmidon alone.
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El Torrent
Gallente Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:11:00 -
[5]
Edited by: El Torrent on 15/03/2007 20:08:32 While I do agree with most of your points, I want to point out, that you miss something in your comparisation.
The minor detail is, Vexor and Dominix are lowest tier in their class. The myrmidon on the other hand, is high tier. Small, but still significant difference in this discussion!
And don't make the only top tier Droneship we have away, and make it lowe tier. Since the first stats I have seen on the myrmidon, I always thought, give it Ishtar like turrets (3 max) and even remove a high slot -- Paxton Industries Recruiting.
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:15:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 20:20:28
Originally by: Fraile Cloudsinger Tier 2 > Tier 1
If you got decent gunnery skills, take the brutix, if you got decent drone skills take the myrmidon. The myrmidon is also more expencive. Compare the other Tier 1 and Tier 2 battlecruisers and you'll see a pattern..Leave the myrmidon alone.
Read the post. I go on the assumption that the Mymidon DOESN'T need to be tier 2. The Myrmidon IS overpowered.
I have awsome gunnery skills, and my Myrmidon still out DPSes my Brutix. That isn't right.
The Myrmidon has way more utility, more tank, and more DPS - with inferior skills.
My Gunnery sits at 5.x mil, my Drones sits at 2.5m. Can you imagine what happens when my drones hits 3.5m? (Ogre II for the omgwtfpwningu)
If Tier X > Tier X-1, then: Apoc is better than Geddon Megathron is better than Dominix Rokh is better than Raven Tempest is better than Phoon Moa is better than Caracal Maller is better than Arbitrator Rupture is better than Stabber etc etc None of those are true. Therefore your statement is wrong, and there is nothing you can do about it.
In short: take your "tier 2 > tier 1" and leave. This isn't the thread for it. Tier 2 may mean more slots, more pg, and more cpu than tier 1... but it says nothing else.
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: El Torrent
While I do agree with most of your points, I want to point out, that you miss something in your comparisation.
The minor detail is, Vexor and Dominix are lowest tier in their class. The myrmidon on the other hand, is high tier.
Nope. I didn't miss that. READ THE POST!
I know very well that Myrmidon is tier 2. I'm suggesting that it be MADE TIER 1.
Tier 2 does not mean "better than" tier 1, no matter what you like. See my previous post. It may mean more slots, more PG, more cpu, etc. The Myrmidon has no business being tier 2.
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El Torrent
Gallente Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: El Torrent
While I do agree with most of your points, I want to point out, that you miss something in your comparisation.
The minor detail is, Vexor and Dominix are lowest tier in their class. The myrmidon on the other hand, is high tier.
Nope. I didn't miss that. READ THE POST!
I know very well that Myrmidon is tier 2. I'm suggesting that it be MADE TIER 1.
Tier 2 does not mean "better than" tier 1, no matter what you like. See my previous post. It may mean more slots, more PG, more cpu, etc. The Myrmidon has no business being tier 2.
I did read your post, sorry for expressing me badly.
Let me rephrase. Why can't we for once get a drone ship, being highest tier, and without powergrid problems? -- Paxton Industries Recruiting.
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: El Torrent I did read your post, sorry for expressing me badly.
Let me rephrase. Why can't we for once get a drone ship, being highest tier, and without powergrid problems?
IMO: because as it stands, the Myrmidon is a tad overpowered.
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Katrina Coreli
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:33:00 -
[10]
i dont like these changes
the brutix is already a fantastic ship. That last high is uneaded and is just going to encourage even more NOS ussage
The Myrmidon definatly neads a nef but what you purpose would nerf it to oblivion.
I agree the problem of the Myrmi outdamageing the Brutix is a problem so heres what id like to see happen to the myrmi
Have it drop turret slots as you sugested, prehaps to 4 or even 3. To be honest i think the coming mythical NOS nerf will raise to Brutix near to the level of the myrmi and i think slot removal would be a cut too deep.
That drone bay is fantastic but drones can be poped very easily. Even when the Myrmi is up close you can still try and shoot them, Worst case scenario is they have to withdraw and re release drones giving your tank a chance to recover.
Fact is the myrmi is abit of a one trick poney and is, though overpowered, not unbeatable even with out the NOS nerf
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 20:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 20:41:47
Originally by: Katrina Coreli i dont like these changes
the brutix is already a fantastic ship. That last high is uneaded and is just going to encourage even more NOS ussage
The Myrmidon definatly neads a nef but what you purpose would nerf it to oblivion.
I agree the problem of the Myrmi outdamageing the Brutix is a problem so heres what id like to see happen to the myrmi
Have it drop turret slots as you sugested, prehaps to 4 or even 3. To be honest i think the coming mythical NOS nerf will raise to Brutix near to the level of the myrmi and i think slot removal would be a cut too deep.
That drone bay is fantastic but drones can be poped very easily. Even when the Myrmi is up close you can still try and shoot them, Worst case scenario is they have to withdraw and re release drones giving your tank a chance to recover.
Fact is the myrmi is abit of a one trick poney and is, though overpowered, not unbeatable even with out the NOS nerf
That's fair... Like I said, the stats above really aren't "final draft", I guess... I know the direction of change I'd like to see, but I don't know EXACTLY what I'd like to see.
Actually, my preference would be for the Myrmidon to not be a drone ship at all. I'd like to see it be an ewar ship :)
I can't wait for a NOS nerf...
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xenodia
Gallente RONA Corporation RONA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
stuff about nerfing myrmidon
No.
Finally drone users got a ship with both decent drone capacity AND enough powergrid to make usable fittings. I woulndt willingly give that up.
And as for the Brutix having inferior DPS, thats simply not true if you have good skills and fit it right. The brutix ends up having a little more DPS than a myrmidon, but not as solid a tank. Difference is brutix can be really good at either tanking or doing damage. Myrmidon can be pretty good at both at the same time. Brutix fails if you try to do both at once. That doesnt mean the myrmidon needs to be nerfed. That means its versatile, which was by design. Thats always been the hallmark of drone ships.
http://www.eve-ronacorp.com |
Upper Management
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: xenodia
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
stuff about nerfing myrmidon
No.
Quote: Finally drone users got a ship with both decent drone capacity AND enough powergrid to make usable fittings. I woulndt willingly give that up.
Yeah... finally we get a ship we can gank AND tank. And gank really well, AND TANK really well! WOOHOOO!!
Quote: And as for the Brutix having inferior DPS, thats simply not true if you have good skills and fit it right. The brutix ends up having a little more DPS than a myrmidon, but not as solid a tank.
Dude, sure... I could stick neutron IIs on my brutix and use RCU and almost no tank and all that crap. But come on. Why even bother, when as you said its only a little more DPS than the Myrmidon, AND the Mymidon can tank and gank?
It doesn't add up.
And my skills are fine, tyvm. Rapid firing 5, medium blaster spec 4. My drone skills are vastly inferior (drone interfacing 5, but no tech 2 heavy drones yet)... and my myrmidon can still outdps my Brutix.
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:19:00 -
[14]
Uhuh, "Upper Management" = me. Dummy jump clone corp holder... :)
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Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:24:00 -
[15]
ôMyrmidon Tier 1 Highs: 5 (AT MOST 4 turret points) Mids: 5 Lows: 5 (adjust PG/CPU accordingly, but have less PG/CPU than the Brutix) Bonus 1: Drone damage bonus Bonus 2: I'm not sure, really...ö
Bonus 2: 5% shield recharge speed per level sorry could not resist.
As for the highs donÆt forgot if you using gang assist then 4 or 5 turrets is not a lot.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:40:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:42:16 Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:38:08 Figure I'd do this real quick:
Brutix, 2x Ion II, 5x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x hammer II: 496 dps
Brutix: 2x Ion II, 5x Electron II, WITH MFS II, void, 5x hammer II: 575 dps (with a gimpy tank)
Brutix: 7x Neutron II, WITH MFS II, void, 5x Hammer II: 626 dps (WAAAAAY gimpy tank)
Myrmidon, 6x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x Ogre II w/DI5: 677 dps (with a FAR better tank)
Myrmidon, 4x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x Ogre II w/DI5: 597 dps (with a FAR better tank AND NOS!)
So, dude, tell me, what's this "correct setup" where the Brutix comes out slightly ahead?
Are you thinking: Brutix, 7x Neutron II, 3x MFS II, void, 5x Hammer II: 790 dps? Honestly, that isn't "set up right"... that's "utterly WHACK, yo!" Its a comedy setup that you undock when a corpmate asks you to test his tank. I mean, come on. Really.
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Pottsey Bonus 2: 5% shield recharge speed per level sorry could not resist.
Quote: As for the highs donÆt forgot if you using gang assist then 4 or 5 turrets is not a lot.
Hmmm... you have a point, I kinda forgot. So rarely see battlecruisers being used with gang mods
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Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:50:00 -
[18]
Sure Xori... nerf Myrmidon, but give me some drones that pry guns off other people's ships.
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DiuxDium
Loot Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:52:00 -
[19]
I love my brutix as it is.
My T2 Heavy Neutron blasters belt out 600 raw DPS. Using an RCU II, I can fit a moderate tank, and a MWD. Any more than this isn't needed.
The myrmidon is overpowered in 1v1, and small very small gang combat. This is well known, and doesn't really matter.
The myrmidon does not cause the brutix to be obsolete, not by a long shot.
The drake on the other hand. ------------------------------------------
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:55:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:52:06
Originally by: DiuxDium I love my brutix as it is.
Don't get me wrong, dude, I love my Brutix too. I wish it was worthwhile to fly though.
Quote: My T2 Heavy Neutron blasters belt out 600 raw DPS. Using an RCU II, I can fit a moderate tank, and a MWD. Any more than this isn't needed.
My stats above... I know they can do that, and that's nice... and the Myrmidon can fit a HEAVY tank and easily omgwtfdps all over a gank-brutix's face.
Quote: The myrmidon is overpowered in 1v1, and small very small gang combat. This is well known, and doesn't really matter.
It matters, dude... it matters :S
Quote: The myrmidon does not cause the brutix to be obsolete, not by a long shot.
How?
Quote: The drake on the other hand.
:) Don't get me started on the Drake... Passive shield tank = the new WCS (Wait... haven't we exchanged flames about the drake previously? I'm remembering something)
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Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 21:58:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:59:24
Originally by: Kruel Sure Xori... nerf Myrmidon, but give me some drones that pry guns off other people's ships.
I would love that. LOL. Yeah, drones can be killed, but it is difficult to kill them if the drone pilot: - knows when to pull the drones off - doesn't fight at range - fits sensor damps - is in a gang
... unless you just fit smarties... but then you gotta KNOW what you're going to be up against.
Seriously - we both know how easy it is to keep our drones from being killed.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.15 22:06:00 -
[22]
The simple change to the Myrmidon it this.
Bonus 1: 20% Bonus to Medium Drone Damage Bonus 2: 5% reduction in MWD capacitor bonus
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Basically the problems are
1: It tanks too much 2: It ganks too much
20% med drone damage bonus makes medium drones [2 flights + light backup] do as much damage as unbonunsed heavy Drones.
The Myrm is no longer doing battleship damage. And its Medium Drones are extra strong giving it better damage against smaller ships.
the second problem of it tanking too much[thus making the Brutix the tank BC and the Myrm the "gank" BC] is fixed by removing its tanking bonus and giving it a less powerful bonus.
Other options for bonuses besides the MWD cap bonus would be "non damage drone bonuses"
+5% Drone Velocity/level
+7.5% Drone Tracking/level
+10% Drone Optimal range/level
Etc. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 22:13:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 22:12:11
Originally by: Goumindong The simple change to the Myrmidon it this.
Bonus 1: 20% Bonus to Medium Drone Damage
I like!
Quote: Bonus 2: 5% reduction in MWD capacitor bonus
Useless bonus for large ships imo.
Quote: Basically the problems are
1: It tanks too much 2: It ganks too much
Yup... that's the point I'm making...
Quote: The Myrm is no longer doing battleship damage. And its Medium Drones are extra strong giving it better damage against smaller ships.
Yup! I like. This also would give the Myrmidon an actual role. \o/
Quote: the second problem of it tanking too much[thus making the Brutix the tank BC and the Myrm the "gank" BC] is fixed by removing its tanking bonus and giving it a less powerful bonus.
Giving it a useful second bonus would be nice though... :) I liked: "+5% Drone Velocity/level".
PS. OOPS, now you know my Myrm setup... as if it was terribly hard to figure out eh?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.15 22:19:00 -
[24]
Nope, I just looked at our killboards and extrapolated from there ;) ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Simon Jax
Gallente Freedom Guard Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.15 22:28:00 -
[25]
Um. From the looks of things the Drake and Hurricane are both able to tank and out DPS their Tier 1 counterparts (Ferox and Cyclone). I can see where the oft-seen NOS setups could push the Myrmidon over the edge into disproportionate overpoweredness, but otherwise I fail to see why it shouldnÆt be a better all around ship simply due to the fact that it is the Tier 2 ship.
If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more? Again, IÆm intentionally glossing over the NOS issue, after which the Mega can indeed be set up to outlast the Domi. Likewise with the Maller vs. Arbitrator, the Thorax vs. the Vexor. Glossing over the nano-gank setups the Tempest would put the hurt on the Typhoon, likewise the Rupture has the better of the Stabber.
It looks more to me that there are specific setups, NOS and Nano, that are pushing tier 1 ships over the edge to beat out their tier 2 counterparts, not their intended place. Tier 2 is intended to have advantages over tier 1.
From the look of your Brutix/Myrm comparisons youÆd need half again as many combat skillpoints to fly the Myrm as you would the Brutix. At the very least run the numbers with T1 Heavy Drones. Especially if youÆre giving the Myrm T2 Medium Blasters and Drone Interfacing V. Maybe the game should be balanced to perfect-build combat characters, so itÆs not like the comparison is invalid. But I could just be irked because youÆre trying to gimp one of my favorite ships.
Incidentally, very few other ships have such prominently obvious turret points. I can thing of a couple where you can see a circle or cut-out where a turret might be placed, but the line of six turrets along both sides of the Myrm makes it exceptionally pronounced that ôsix turrets go in a straight line hereö. You canÆt have less than six turret hardpoints placed in that line without a glaringly obvious lack. As such I can guarantee you they will not change the number of turret hardpoints on the Myrm.
--Wherever you go, there you are.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.15 22:31:00 -
[26]
Hurricane cant come close to out tanking a Cyclone while out-ganking it.
The Ferox and Drake are two competly different boats and provide roles that are so divergent they cant really be compared in terms of pure tank and DPS.
I.E. 130km rails make the equation a bit skewed. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
PathetiQ
Gallente The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.03.15 22:32:00 -
[27]
wow what a booring and useless post...
brutix ftw
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.15 22:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: PathetiQ wow what a booring and useless post...
brutix ftw
If it was so boring and useless, why did you post it? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.15 23:08:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 23:04:43
Originally by: Goumindong Hurricane cant come close to out tanking a Cyclone while out-ganking it.
QFT
Quote: The Ferox and Drake are two competly different boats and provide roles that are so divergent they cant really be compared in terms of pure tank and DPS.
QFT
Originally by: PathetiQ wow what a booring and useless post...
Logic and reason is the candle to a troll's moth. (Or something)
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Firane
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.03.15 23:11:00 -
[30]
Brutix just needs another low.
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