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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1972
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Posted - 2016.08.31 04:30:32 -
[91] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Lawrence Lawton wrote:nobody should be immune from non-consensual PvP anywhere. There is no such thing as 'non-consensual PvP' in EVE. You explicitly agree to participate in PvP, in all its many, varied and obtuse forms, the instant you Undock from a station. /pedantry. If you really want to be pedantic you'd have to acknowledge the difference between consenting to the possibility of attack from undocking and willfully allowing with conscious consent a particular act of aggression.
And to say you agree to all forms of aggression is further false unless you take no precautions to safeguard yourself or escape/avoid aggression. |
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy Caldari State
104
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Posted - 2016.08.31 04:56:59 -
[92] - Quote
I really hope that changes will make every single afk miner character to quit this game and finally stop paying subscriptions for a so poorly managed game.
I'm actually happy that CCP finally took a decision and faces the consequences of this decision instead of being in the middle... |
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
920
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Posted - 2016.08.31 05:09:08 -
[93] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:If you really want to be pedantic you'd have to acknowledge the difference between consenting to the possibility of attack from undocking and willfully allowing with conscious consent a particular act of aggression.
Wat(tm)?
I'm serious. I truly cannot make head nor tail of that statement. Unless you envisage the following: I recently "willfully" baited a Machariel into trying to bump my Tengu off a gate. Once said Machariel was itself out of jump range of the gate, I burned at them, locked them up, applied a scram, fired off a Cyno and dropped 20 odd Black Ops battleships on their head.
This "conscious consent" you speak of had already been given: we were both undocked. That's all the consent I, or anyone else, needs to give.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:And to say you agree to all forms of aggression is further false unless you take no precautions to safeguard yourself or escape/avoid aggression.
There is no place in EVE, outside of a Citadel, Station or POS Forcefield where I am in any way prevented from shooting at you (or anyone else). I will face CONCORD retaliation in hisec and have to do the Sentry Gun Salsa in lowsec space, but I'm not actually PREVENTED from shooting at someone else, anywhere in space. The safety mechanism is simply there so players can make the choice to engage in High or Low security space.
Equally, everyone else in EVE is free to shoot at me anytime I'm undocked and the fancy takes them. All it requires is a target lock. This is fine and dandy.
So yes, I would state that the seemingly simple act of Undocking is sending a clear and unambiguous message to every other pilot that you have consciously consented to getting shot at.
Taking precautions to avoid PvP is, in itself, a non-violent act of PvP. You are using your knowledge of game mechanics to your advantage to try to avoid getting shot at. This too, is fine and dandy and I have 100% no issue with that.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1972
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Posted - 2016.08.31 05:35:01 -
[94] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:This "conscious consent" you speak of had already been given: we were both undocked. That's all the consent I, or anyone else, needs to give. No, that's not how consent works. Consent is more akin to permission that possibility. Unless you asked if you could hot drop him after getting away from the gate you have no idea if he consented. And you know he didn't if he protested.
The actual truth behind that situation is simply that consent isn't needed as opposed to actually having been given. That's why it's called what it is. That's where the term "non-consensual PvP" comes from and does a much better job of describing a game where you can't always choose the terms of your engagements.
Mephiztopheleze wrote:There is no place in EVE, outside of a Citadel, Station or POS Forcefield where I am in any way prevented from shooting at you (or anyone else). Which is wholly irrelevant when considering consent. Consent has never meant any state other than totally invulnerable save somehow the perversion of the word as applied here. |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
1882
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Posted - 2016.08.31 05:53:01 -
[95] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Soel Reit wrote:Solecist Project wrote:May Arethusa wrote: They're buying and sell products, that's interaction. Now we're all real, real sorry that guy you met on your first day didn't speak to you, but there are better ways to farm hugs than whelping catalysts into fictional space police all day.
That's not interaction, it's a transaction. glad we got that covered. to do a transaction you have to interact got you covered! interaction requires presence. there is no interaction between players when you randomly buy or sell. it's a transactions of goods and isk which runs automatically. For it to be interaction through transactions ... ... you'd have to be long time trader and not a miner. Heh... What are we doing here? Interacting or transacting by posts?
You wrote your post some time ago when i (possibly) was asleep. And now i read it and respond.
For me it looks like interaction but we got no presence here
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
922
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Posted - 2016.08.31 07:05:34 -
[96] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:This "conscious consent" you speak of had already been given: we were both undocked. That's all the consent I, or anyone else, needs to give. No, that's not how consent works. Consent is more akin to permission than possibility. Unless you asked if you could hot drop him after getting away from the gate you have no idea if he consented. And you know he didn't if he protested.
Yes, it is how consent for PvP works in EVE. Once you undock, you have given your explicit consent to get shot at. There is simply no other way to describe it.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:There is no place in EVE, outside of a Citadel, Station or POS Forcefield where I am in any way prevented from shooting at you (or anyone else). Which is wholly irrelevant when considering consent. Consent has never meant any state other than totally invulnerable save somehow the perversion of the word as applied here.
It is 100% relevant when discussing the concept of 'consent' in the virtual world of New Eden.
Stop playing Space Johnnie Cochrane. You make no sense, therefore you MUST ACQUIT!
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
189
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Posted - 2016.08.31 07:06:11 -
[97] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: Heh... What are we doing here? Interacting or transacting by posts?
You wrote your post some time ago when i (possibly) was asleep. And now i read it and respond.
For me it looks like interaction but we got no presence here
let him be... you know... he loves this kind of details following his thoughts all we are doing is transaction, even talking in local becouse... you know... no presence... you interact with the pc and it interact with the other user, no contact between the people at the two ends.
LUL Sol for the president boiz
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2731
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Posted - 2016.08.31 08:21:05 -
[98] - Quote
I'm really looking forward to this changes. So far they look extremely good. It seams that Highsec will not be effected greatly however. For our business there are a few notable changes which will make it possible to interact more with our customers.
- Mining boosters will obviously now be in the belt and therefor require a permit and prove their presence at the keyboard or be subject to bump/gank. - I can't wait for the stats of the new mining command ship. - Depending on how they will implement the boost system to interact with crimewatch there may be even more possibilities for fun.
I think this will all promote more interaction and conflict and I am looking forward to the changes. My only fear is that CCP will crack under the waves of tears from all the carebears and once again implement a special snowflake rule for mining boosts. Let's hope they don't and go with the current plans.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
121
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Posted - 2016.08.31 08:50:57 -
[99] - Quote
Muh permits, muh saviour blah blah
/yawn |
u3pog
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
754
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Posted - 2016.08.31 09:01:45 -
[100] - Quote
After mining with 16 accounts for nearly a month I am pretty sure no one can control 50 accounts at once - have you seen the balls of skiffs with similar names? I am beginning to think these are controlled by bots just like the OP. Not to mention I used hulks for maximum yield and had to watch my fleet for threats all the time. 16 accounts was a nightmare, can't imagine more...Plus I was active in local and occasionally providing boosts, my orca was always on site (sorry CODE, not mining anymore )
I think the mining process need to be altered, so that it requires more interraction, is more interesting and in return be more lucrative. I am sure CCP will find a way...eventually. |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26723
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Posted - 2016.08.31 09:18:28 -
[101] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:If you really want to be pedantic you'd have to acknowledge the difference between consenting to the possibility of attack from undocking and willfully allowing with conscious consent a particular act of aggression.
And to say you agree to all forms of aggression is further false unless you take no precautions to safeguard yourself or escape/avoid aggression. It's known as implied consent.
Quote:implied consent n. consent when surrounding circumstances exist which would lead a reasonable person to believe that this consent had been given, although no direct, express or explicit words of agreement had been uttered.
The surrounding circumstances being that Eve is a PvP game, thus leading any reasonable person to believe that if you're logged in, you're here for some kind of PvP.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Serene Repose
2825
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Posted - 2016.08.31 09:35:18 -
[102] - Quote
Lawrence Lawton wrote:Piugattuk wrote: So there you go, you just admitted that all those AFK "miners" infecting the roids that the majority docked up and the lone AFK'er gets ganked, by your own words you admit that AFK is not a problem as the miners run away, man what can I say, except sorry for you.
I admit nothing. I'm not on trial here. That convo is an example of a group of small time miners, and was intended to be humorous. ...sound.... Lawrence Lawton wrote:All we really want is for people to buy permits and follow the Code.
...and fury....
So, after all this much ado about nothing, in the end you just posted in the wrong section.
Marketing Discussions --------------->> this way!
We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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Yarosara Ruil
556
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Posted - 2016.08.31 09:41:38 -
[103] - Quote
In this topic: the regular CODE foot soldiers continue to perpetuate their narrative of their "public service" while posing themselves as the driving force of risk for miners everywhere, when in reality they are just in it for the schadenfreude.
But yeah, the boost changes are cool! That's all I have to say. |
Kei Nagasai
X-COM Navy Fidelas Constans
25
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Posted - 2016.08.31 09:50:54 -
[104] - Quote
The answer to the AFK mining "problem" is simple, why dont "muh code" chase after CCP to change the way mining works at a base level? So it requires more than just activating a strip miner? Oh wait, no, that wouldn't do now, would it? It's to much like common sense. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
7796
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Posted - 2016.08.31 10:40:33 -
[105] - Quote
I've played EVE for a few years now and mostly PVP, but when I started out, I definitely checked out mining. It was a DOA activity for me, nothing to engage me.
Contrast that to the way mining works in Elite: Dangerous. I thoroughly enjoy mining in ED, and it is actually a genuinely relaxing activity, not to mention one that leaves you with a sense of accomplishment. What Elite lacks, though, is purpose. The purpose of mining in ED is to sell minerals and metals to make money.
In EVE, the purpose is to build ships, modules, and battlestations.
Combine the mechanics of mining in ED with the purpose of mining in EVE and you might find you have a well-rounded mechanic that people can enjoy and find purpose in.
One more thing before I go. In ED, my mining ship is also capable of defending itself quite effectively, even against other players. It's a Cutter, if anyone else here plays the game, and it's quite large and fast, and can't be easily mass locked. I've successfully destroyed many assailants with it while in the process of mining, and the ones that I couldn't destroy, I've easily escaped.
Granted, Elite is more of a PVE experience, and escape is probably a little too easy. We don't need to go that far with EVE though, but I don't think barges should be as virtually defenceless as they are now. And yes, I know they can tank, but we all know even a good tank isn't exactly a deterrent to an attacker these days.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
106
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Posted - 2016.08.31 10:44:50 -
[106] - Quote
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Player interactions are rare. A prospective miner who visits a belt and tries to interact with the local population is met with a wall of silence. have to strongly disagree with this statement.. over the past year+ I have personaly had plenty of social interaction with other miners / industrialist players / corporations ect
Lawrence Lawton wrote:With the introduction of Command Bursts, it will no longer be possible to have permanent system-wide boosts from an invulnerable Orca with an AFK pilot. Someone will need to be around to activate the boosts, and the potential of separating the booster from the fleet will now exist. [/list] I believe the proposed changes have the potential to revitalize the state of Highsec and am curious to know what other people think of this.
the introduction of the new industrial command ship .. the porpoise ... will negate your argument here about the orca... it can sit at belt orbiting a rock or another ship, or just sitting there, rough initial guesstimates are that it will be battlecruiser class (similar to other command ships) with all the tank that comes with it. I still see orca's in belts in high sec all the time btw |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2731
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Posted - 2016.08.31 10:59:02 -
[107] - Quote
Yarosara Ruil wrote:In this topic: the regular CODE foot soldiers continue to perpetuate their narrative of their "public service" while posing themselves as the driving force of risk for miners everywhere, when in reality they are just in it for the schadenfreude.
But yeah, the boost changes are cool! That's all I have to say. Schadenfreude ist die sch+¦nste Freude.
Old german saying
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
191
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Posted - 2016.08.31 11:02:06 -
[108] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Yarosara Ruil wrote:In this topic: the regular CODE foot soldiers continue to perpetuate their narrative of their "public service" while posing themselves as the driving force of risk for miners everywhere, when in reality they are just in it for the schadenfreude.
But yeah, the boost changes are cool! That's all I have to say. Schadenfreude ist die sch+¦nste Freude. Old german saying
pretty sure that the german section of the forum is way below! you may want check it before posting here |
Solecist Project
32746
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Posted - 2016.08.31 11:33:03 -
[109] - Quote
Two seconds additional seconds spent on what you read ... ... might have brought up that there is no english term for Schadenfreude ... ... and that it's being used as term even by english speakers.
Just like Kindergarten.
That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
8 Golden Rules of EVE
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Yarosara Ruil
557
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Posted - 2016.08.31 11:33:42 -
[110] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote: Schadenfreude ist die sch+¦nste Freude.
Old german saying
Honestly, I don't speak a lick of German, but describing the motivation of the average EVE veteran in a single word is a boon.
And I just call them out as I see them. |
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
193
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Posted - 2016.08.31 11:36:52 -
[111] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Two seconds additional seconds spent on what you read ... ... might have brought up that there is no english term for Schadenfreude ... ... and that it's being used as term even by english speakers.
Just like Kindergarten.
reading all the phrase and not stopping at the first word may had you realized it's german and not a word in an english phrase. just saying |
Solecist Project
32746
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Posted - 2016.08.31 11:51:03 -
[112] - Quote
Holy **** Soel, can you stop behaving like a carebear already?
That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
8 Golden Rules of EVE
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
196
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Posted - 2016.08.31 11:53:43 -
[113] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Holy **** Soel, can you stop behaving like a carebear already?
any your request is an order for me madam! i'll gladly turn myself in a l33t pvper
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Hendrix Foster
The Scope Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2016.08.31 13:37:42 -
[114] - Quote
I mine often and don't really have a problem with the current set up regarding barges/exhumers apart from I would like CCP to make mining in other than high sec worth it for newer players....or at least tempt them into it more as low sec mining is a fool's errand atm.
Secondly....I've no time for CODE/James the moron whingers who complain about the Skiffs or Procurers...because if there were no miners then sweet FA would get made.
From a new player's view (which I am a new player really), then the problem with low sec is that as soon as you leave high sec then there's a gate camp or people that straight away lock onto you who have been playing for like 5-8 years and are leeching off the gates intentionally to catch new players or the unwary.....hmmmm.
Also, if you go to a gate that goes to null then it's interdiction spheres with neut ships waiting.......blimey.
I'm all for leaving high sec sometimes or whatever....but its a ****-fest as soon as you do so, and they are all vets all-the-way almost everytime in a tier 2 or 3 ship.
Man! I know you folks will say just deal with it but it's not cool just being a kill mail for some overly skilled douche that waits 24/7 on the other side of the high sec gate.
In time.....I will be more skilled and the time of vegence will come and be mine...but not just yet, haha.
o7 |
Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
20
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Posted - 2016.08.31 13:38:50 -
[115] - Quote
Kei Nagasai wrote:The answer to the AFK mining "problem" is simple, why dont "muh code" chase after CCP to change the way mining works at a base level? So it requires more than just activating a strip miner? Oh wait, no, that wouldn't do now, would it? It's to much like common sense.
Because they choose to use the tools CCP provides us with to make the change they want to see, instead of crying in the forums waiting for CCP to change the game for them.
Welcome to EVE. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
186
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Posted - 2016.08.31 13:58:42 -
[116] - Quote
Well there is a simple solution:
CODE shows how to do it right: CODE will make a Standing mining fleet of non AFK Miners in Hulks. Called: Hulkamania
They will mine for a month to show us all that mining is fun and there is no real reason to make it afk. It will serve several topics as it will bring content to Eve, give a lot of People a opportunity to take a shot at CODE and CODE will get the fights that they want AND they can show that that the afk Mining is due to the laziness and greed of the miners and not the ming numbing boredom of mining.
CODE: give a good example and SHOW us how to mine the right way!!!! |
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Taladi Federation
277
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Posted - 2016.08.31 14:04:44 -
[117] - Quote
High sec miners are the lowest form of Eve player and should be reminded of that. I feel like the procurer should get a minor tank reduction, very minor.
That being said I am the proud owner of a fully researched Catalyst blueprint
"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath
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Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
23
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Posted - 2016.08.31 14:09:01 -
[118] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:CODE: give a good example and SHOW us how to mine the right way!!!!
The right way to mine is to get out of high sec. Doesn't matter if you afk in null, or ninja null rocks in low sec / wormhole anoms. |
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Taladi Federation
277
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Posted - 2016.08.31 14:09:21 -
[119] - Quote
Hendrix Foster wrote:I mine often and don't really have a problem with the current set up regarding barges/exhumers apart from I would like CCP to make mining in other than high sec worth it for newer players....or at least tempt them into it more as low sec mining is a fool's errand atm.
Secondly....I've no time for CODE/James the moron whingers who complain about the Skiffs or Procurers...because if there were no miners then sweet FA would get made.
From a new player's view (which I am a new player really), then the problem with low sec is that as soon as you leave high sec then there's a gate camp or people that straight away lock onto you who have been playing for like 5-8 years and are leeching off the gates intentionally to catch new players or the unwary.......................................
o7
You join a decent null industrial corp or mine on your other character in a WH like I do. Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite are like a steak dinner compared to the Mcdonalds of high sec. People who eat at Mcdonalds are fat, weak and ugly. Therefore we can only make conclusions about people who mine in high security space.
"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath
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Hendrix Foster
The Scope Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2016.08.31 14:19:51 -
[120] - Quote
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:
You join a decent null industrial corp or mine on your other character in a WH like I do. Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite are like a steak dinner compared to the Mcdonalds of high sec. People who eat at Mcdonalds are fat, weak and ugly. Therefore we can only make conclusions about people who mine in high security space.
So judgemental..coming for someone who has played for over 4 years.
Not everyone has been playing forever. Try not to be so dismissive and nasty.
Then again....in is troll greneral discussion...lol
No worries.....expected |
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