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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2441
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Posted - 2016.09.01 08:35:40 -
[1] - Quote
I think the game would benefit from more choices in regards to T1 hulls and weapons systems.
T1 hulls that fire larger sized rounds should inherit bonuses from lower hulls.
If I fly a Caracal the bonuses should be:
5% bonus to Rockets, Light Missiles, Heavy Assault Missiles and Heavy Missile rate of fire 10% bonus to Rockets, Light Missile, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity
Likewise for the Typhoon
5% bonus to Rockets, Light Missiles, Heavy Assault Missiles, Heavy Missiles, Cruise Missiles and Torpedo rate of fire 5% bonus to Rockets, Light Missiles, Heavy Assault Missiles, Heavy Missiles, Cruise Missiles and Torpedo explosion velocity
It doesn't make a great deal of sense that you can fit a rocket to a specialised missile battleship, greatly reducing the potential dps and receive no missile bonus at all. But you can fit them to a frigate or a destroyer and get huge bonuses.
Fitting smaller systems is already a nerf since the systems do vastly reduced damage.
Lets look at an example of what the system would look like on a Typhoon before everyone screams OP'ness.
Unbonused T2 Rockets on a Typhoon all L5 skills:
DPS: 173 Explosion Velocity: 250.937 Range: 14.1km
Bonused:
DPS: 216 Explosion Velocity: 313.671 Range: 14.1km
Hardly overpowered imo and allows for an enormous amount of new fits opportunities.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4717
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Posted - 2016.09.01 17:32:04 -
[2] - Quote
...No, you cannot have an option to just drop a depot, swap guns and delete anyone who tries to tackle your battleship. Fit rapid launchers if you want bonused smaller missiles, or just fend tackle off with drones (or, y'know, your support) like everyone else does. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2956
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Posted - 2016.09.01 17:44:36 -
[3] - Quote
why should bigger ships just flat be better?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Wimzy Chent-Shi
Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins.
80
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Posted - 2016.09.01 19:58:04 -
[4] - Quote
Well typhoon always confuses me with being sold as "RHML" ship, while it has only a RoF bonus that applies to it. So heavy missiles would be neat.
Make a newbro foundation started @ here
Let us help those newbros that can not PLEX themselves.
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FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
674
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Posted - 2016.09.01 20:55:46 -
[5] - Quote
Since i started playing eve in 08 i have wanted a battleship sized module that launches ~1k rockets at a time, think an even more rapid launcher...
It will never see the light of day because of balance issues but it'd LOOK amazing especially with the new-ish graphical prowess of the engine |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2960
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Posted - 2016.09.01 22:14:50 -
[6] - Quote
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:Well typhoon always confuses me with being sold as "RHML" ship, while it has only a RoF bonus that applies to it. So heavy missiles would be neat.
it is done that way so you don't fit a cruiser sized system to it
the bonus to ROF can be done to add dps only to RHML where as the pure damage bonus would apply to both. its the same with all RHML and RLML ships
Citadel worm hole tax
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3556
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Posted - 2016.09.01 23:22:09 -
[7] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:...No, you cannot have an option to just drop a depot, swap guns and delete anyone who tries to tackle your battleship. Fit rapid launchers if you want bonused smaller missiles, or just fend tackle off with drones (or, y'know, your support) like everyone else does. Except A: Rapid launchers aren't bonused even when you fit the right sized weapons. And B: Frigates have guns that work fine against everything. The meta is currently heavily biased in only one direction, CCP Devs themselves have admitted it in a great many places, and this is something that would take steps to equalising out the meta between small & large ships. Also C: If you aren't a missile boat you don't have a 'rapid' option anyway. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1390
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Posted - 2016.09.01 23:27:37 -
[8] - Quote
The Barghest and Rattlesnake would like to talk to you for a minute.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2962
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Posted - 2016.09.01 23:30:44 -
[9] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Danika Princip wrote:...No, you cannot have an option to just drop a depot, swap guns and delete anyone who tries to tackle your battleship. Fit rapid launchers if you want bonused smaller missiles, or just fend tackle off with drones (or, y'know, your support) like everyone else does. Except A: Rapid launchers aren't bonused even when you fit the right sized weapons. And B: Frigates have guns that work fine against everything. The meta is currently heavily biased in only one direction, CCP Devs themselves have admitted it in a great many places, and this is something that would take steps to equalising out the meta between small & large ships. Also C: If you aren't a missile boat you don't have a 'rapid' option anyway.
A rapid launchers are bonused
B small guns are given lower dps and larger ships are given higher EHP. the reason the meta is so biased has more than application to thank for that
C if you are a turret boat you can do much more to help your application
Citadel worm hole tax
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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2442
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Posted - 2016.09.02 00:16:33 -
[10] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:...No, you cannot have an option to just drop a depot, swap guns and delete anyone who tries to tackle your battleship. Fit rapid launchers if you want bonused smaller missiles, or just fend tackle off with drones (or, y'know, your support) like everyone else does. Depots can be easily reinforced.
In addition, the bonuses are quite small as I demonstrated.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:why should bigger ships just flat be better? Why should smaller ships just flat be better?
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3556
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Posted - 2016.09.02 01:19:48 -
[11] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: A rapid launchers are bonused
B small guns are given lower dps and larger ships are given higher EHP. the reason the meta is so biased has more than application to thank for that
C if you are a turret boat you can do much more to help your application
A: Every BC disagrees. Half the Widow bonuses disagree, Most of the Golem bonuses disagree, RNI disagrees, Half of the Raven bonuses disagree, Half the Typhoon bonuses disagree. So no, Rapid launchers are not 'bonused'. A few ships have limited bonuses to them in the larger range, and some cruisers have some bonuses also.
B: Higher EHP is useless when your effective DPS is lower, since small guns apply much better. And totally, it's more than just application, but you have to give something back to the larger classes, and it's not going to be mobility.
C: Not really. Everything a large turret boat can do to help application a missile boat can also do. And a missile boat can never be totally out tracked.
The Depot argument is actually a decent one, but maybe the solution to that is to slow down depots so they actually become a S Citadel you drop in a safe in the system, not something you keep picking up and dropping with you in every single mission/anom/sig/belt. They probably are too good at escape fitting and not good enough at working as a roaming base. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
814
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Posted - 2016.09.02 01:48:27 -
[12] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Why should smaller ships just flat be better?
Why have different ship classes if we are going to have every thing kill everything just as well.
Lets just have same ship...different skin. Hell...lets just fire up pong.
Its not the small ships fault. its how damage is calculated. Analogy time.
Shooting a target the size of a playing card at 500 yards. Hard. Shooting a target the size of a house at 500 yard. Easier.
Speed and sig radius and all the good stuff. A frigate spec'd to track a frigate moving very fast with very low sig radius and hit it is going to hit BS's really well when they have on average sig radii several times over a frigate and moves slower. Don't like this aspect, work on a different, and viable replacement. Fix that...please fix missiles as a second miracle. Hitting non moving targets not at full paper max is always fun. |
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
102
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Posted - 2016.09.02 02:22:53 -
[13] - Quote
You already have the fitting choices. You can choose to sacrifice your bonuses and DPS in exchange for some application. That's a choice. Like you said, these ships are specialized. You can't expect to ram some undersized weapon onto it and expect the same performance.
I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
815
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Posted - 2016.09.02 03:26:06 -
[14] - Quote
Dark Lord Trump wrote:You already have the fitting choices. You can choose to sacrifice your bonuses and DPS in exchange for some application. That's a choice. Like you said, these ships are specialized. You can't expect to ram some undersized weapon onto it and expect the same performance.
I sense....hates rapid reload time syndrome. They should have led off with guns...there we'd get at least fitting arguments as tacking on TC/TE/Web/hell paint (local or a buddy running it)...I'd feel some empathy. I use all weapons systems, better tracking guns can have you eat some time in pyfa for sure to find a happy medium.
But fair enough, rapid reload does suck. But being objective its a fair balance really. At least with my use on rattler....what rapid heavies do to small crap is amazing. Changed my outlook on missile BS's for sure. It was small stuff I dreaded. Even with very good drone skills to kill small stuff the old fashioned way. 30 seconds balances the carnage it can do imo.
Besides the ooh ahh factor not seeing the rocket desires. But....never caught the allure of them. By and large I liked lights for snipe at edge of point with frigate use. I want to come in shotgun to the face style...I have minmatar and gallante cross trains for that with guns. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2964
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Posted - 2016.09.02 04:54:45 -
[15] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: A rapid launchers are bonused
B small guns are given lower dps and larger ships are given higher EHP. the reason the meta is so biased has more than application to thank for that
C if you are a turret boat you can do much more to help your application
A: Every BC disagrees. Half the Widow bonuses disagree, Most of the Golem bonuses disagree, RNI disagrees, Half of the Raven bonuses disagree, Half the Typhoon bonuses disagree. So no, Rapid launchers are not 'bonused'. A few ships have limited bonuses to them in the larger range, and some cruisers have some bonuses also. B: Higher EHP is useless when your effective DPS is lower, since small guns apply much better. And totally, it's more than just application, but you have to give something back to the larger classes, and it's not going to be mobility. C: Not really. Everything a large turret boat can do to help application a missile boat can also do. And a missile boat can never be totally out tracked. The Depot argument is actually a decent one, but maybe the solution to that is to slow down depots so they actually become a S Citadel you drop in a safe in the system, not something you keep picking up and dropping with you in every single mission/anom/sig/belt. They probably are too good at escape fitting and not good enough at working as a roaming base.
A. Okay you do understand that a BC and cruiser are not meant to fit RHML right? and that those battleships do have full DPS bonuses to the RHML in the form of ROF in order to keep the bonus from affecting standard heavy launchers as well.
B: yet i can get my BB to apply well over 80% of its damage to cruisers and nearly 50% to frigs still more than they do to me.How do i do it? I have a support fleet full of wonderful webs and paints. Mobility and cost and utility are the big reason smaller ships are favored over large ones. Look at frigs and cruisers they have a ship that can do whatever they want, probs, e-war, logi, dps. Battle ships? outside of a few cases its all dps and no one wants to lug around this slow ship gate to gate just for the dps they could get from two cruisers at well under 1/2 the cost.(hell when you take out the mobility issues suddenly you do see more BBs in the fleet just look at blops gangs). Battleships are still used in large fleets where alpha is king but most fights in eve are on the small side and BBs are just not meant for that.
C: do you not understand how application works for missiles vs turrets? if your expl rad is bigger than their sig no matter how fast or slow the target is going they will take reduced damage. so a torpedo will never do 100% to even a cruiser. Turrets the angular velocity is more important and even if their sig is smaller than your sig res(now it always will be) so long as the target has 0 velocity relative to you you can deal 100% of your damage. this is why missiles got a rapid variant and turrets didn't
Citadel worm hole tax
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
815
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Posted - 2016.09.02 05:59:18 -
[16] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
A. those hips do have full DPS bonuses to the RML in the form of ROF in order to keep the bonus from affecting standard launchers as well.(with some exception)
Widow -> 5% rof (no range bonus) typhoon -> 5% rof (no range) tfi 7.5% to damage witch is exciting sni 5% rof Caracal 5% rof orth 15% to damage and 200% to vel (50% reduced flight time)
this isn't even all but yeah they are soooo unbonused
some don't view ROF as a damage bonus. Always fun topic in ships and mods and in prior rebalance threads here. Wish you well on converting or showing them the light, many have tried and failed.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2964
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Posted - 2016.09.02 06:19:46 -
[17] - Quote
Also just wanted to add when it comes to hitting small ships grapple beams are king
Citadel worm hole tax
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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2442
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Posted - 2016.09.02 09:24:07 -
[18] - Quote
Dark Lord Trump wrote:You already have the fitting choices. You can choose to sacrifice your bonuses and DPS in exchange for some application. That's a choice. Like you said, these ships are specialized. You can't expect to ram some undersized weapon onto it and expect the same performance. Firstly the undersized weapons already fit on the larger ships. The bonuses are arbitrarily removed which is stupid imo.
Why stupid?
Prop Mods - example Svipul with a cruiser MWD, cap stable and still able to fit weapons and mods, fastest cap stable ship in game at about 13km per second and 10 second align time. Frigates and Destroyers fitting cruiser sized prop mods. Cruisers and battlecruisers fitting battleship sized prop mods, Battleships restricted to be able to fit battleship sized prop mods or lower.
Shield Extenders - Frigates / Dessies fitting cruiser sized extenders, cruisers fitting battleship sized extenders. Battleships only able to fit battleship sized or lower extenders.
Armor Plates - Frigates Dessies fitting cruiser sized armor plates. Cruisers and battlecruisers fitting battleship sized armor plates. Battleships restricted to only fitting battleship sized armor plates or lower.
Subcaps Best Damage Application: Frigates / Destroyers Best Raw DPS: Battleships Best Actual DPS: Frigates / Destroyers Best Damage Mitigation: Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers with oversized AB Best Raw EHP: Battleships Best Actual EHP: Svipul Passive Tanked with oversized AB (+90% mitigation) @ 20k ehp * 9 = 180,000 EHP.
I could go on with the following but its pretty self explanatory:
Scan Res Sig Radius Align Time . . .
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2965
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Posted - 2016.09.02 09:57:34 -
[19] - Quote
did you just use the power of a t3d to justify why these buff is a good thing??
also a few webs and suddenly that svip pops a rapier/Huginn or Hyena to slow them down and let a BB get ontop of it with a grapple and you can say by by. using the gal/minm logistic cruisers to give remote tracking buffs is also a strong way to help a BB
Eve is set up so that the larger the ship the more it relies on support. now i would agree that they are in a weak place but better application against small targets is not the best way to go about it. i would sooner see their damage raised letting them get 1k-1.3 on adv for t1 and 2k with a full DPS fit. this would not only help with low application so long as you had the support to help you hit but it would make them more useful against dreads and make it so bringing a two cruisers doesn't out match bringing a BB
also BBs were able to fit capital mods when they first came out with the new ones... it broke everything you had BBs with well over 1M EHP before heat
also the bonuses are not arbitrarily removed. they are removed for balance reasons . if i could get the same or more dps and application with a BB tank why would i fly a frigate or a cruiser ever again?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2442
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Posted - 2016.09.02 10:37:44 -
[20] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:did you just use the power of a t3d to justify why these buff is a good thing??
also a few webs and suddenly that svip pops a rapier/Huginn or Hyena to slow them down and let a BB get ontop of it with a grapple and you can say by by. using the gal/minm logistic cruisers to give remote tracking buffs is also a strong way to help a BB
Eve is set up so that the larger the ship the more it relies on support. now i would agree that they are in a weak place but better application against small targets is not the best way to go about it. i would sooner see their damage raised letting them get 1k-1.3 on adv for t1 and 2k with a full DPS fit. this would not only help with low application so long as you had the support to help you hit but it would make them more useful against dreads and make it so bringing a two cruisers doesn't out match bringing a BB
also BBs were able to fit capital mods when they first came out with the new ones... it broke everything you had BBs with well over 1M EHP before heat
EDIT: the bonuses are not arbitrarily removed. they are removed for balance reasons . if i could get the same or more dps and application with a BB tank why would i fly a frigate or a cruiser ever again? No I used the Svipul as an extreme example of smaller ships fitting larger ships mods. It only works from small to larger. Bigger ships can't fit smaller ships mods to get an advantage like small ships can. Svipuls are not the only small ships that can use oversized mods.
In regards to your "only need a few webs, or a Rapier / Huginn or Hyena". This demonstrates the disparity very well in my opinion.
I dont think anyone wants to see battleships fitting capital mods, which is why larger ships should be able to fit smaller ship weapons system without penalty the same one smaller ships fit larger ships mods.
What imbalance are you referring to? In my example of fitting rockets on a Typhoon, if they were bonused the Typhoon would go from 170dps to 230 dps. The typhoons explosion radius would make no difference to the smaller ships since rockets already hit for max on smaller ships.
I cannot see how that is more imbalanced than being able to fit a 1600mm plate on a cruiser, a 50mn MWD on a destroyer or a large shield extender on a T3.
Oh I forgot another system that was designed for battleships but which is used extremely well by smaller ships, Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones.
XL shield boosters, Large shield boosters can also be added to the list of oversized mods.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2967
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Posted - 2016.09.02 10:46:31 -
[21] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: No I used the Svipul as an extreme example of smaller ships fitting larger ships mods. It only works from small to larger. Bigger ships can't fit smaller ships mods to get an advantage like small ships can. Svipuls are not the only small ships that can use oversized mods.
In regards to your "only need a few webs, or a Rapier / Huginn or Hyena". This demonstrates the disparity very well in my opinion.
I dont think anyone wants to see battleships fitting capital mods, which is why larger ships should be able to fit smaller ship weapons system without penalty the same one smaller ships fit larger ships mods.
What imbalance are you referring to? In my example of fitting rockets on a Typhoon, if they were bonused the Typhoon would go from 170dps to 230 dps. The typhoons explosion radius would make no difference to the smaller ships since rockets already hit for max on smaller ships.
I cannot see how that is more imbalanced than being able to fit a 1600mm plate on a cruiser, a 50mn MWD on a destroyer or a large shield extender on a T3.
Oh I forgot another system that was designed for battleships but which is used extremely well by smaller ships, Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones.
XL shield boosters, Large shield boosters can also be added to the list of oversized mods.
the fact that you need support to fully use a large ship seems unbalanced to you?
well in regards to plats and shield extenders they are balanced for you to fit up same with boosters with it being easier to fit plates and boosters (this is why they each have an XL size)
as for oversize prop mod many would argue that it is imballanced and have been fighting to remove the possibility
the reason fitting smaller guns is not the same is you can now get = or greater DPS than a smaller ship but with no draw back other than potential dps. when fitting larger sized mods you can't get = or greater tank and you have to make sacrifices in the rest of the fittings to accommodate for the higher CPU/PG of the larger mods. the agi and sig is also a bigger penalty on a small ship vs a large ship when talking about extenders and plates.
tl;dr oversize tank mods are not a good example to justify small weapons on large ships it is just a false dichotomy and over-sized prop mods are already considered OP by a large number of the player base
EDIT:
so i just looked and depending on range you only need 1-2 webs for a BB to catch up to an overheating oversized ab svip. that is not all that hard to manage
Citadel worm hole tax
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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2442
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Posted - 2016.09.02 11:13:51 -
[22] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: No I used the Svipul as an extreme example of smaller ships fitting larger ships mods. It only works from small to larger. Bigger ships can't fit smaller ships mods to get an advantage like small ships can. Svipuls are not the only small ships that can use oversized mods.
In regards to your "only need a few webs, or a Rapier / Huginn or Hyena". This demonstrates the disparity very well in my opinion.
I dont think anyone wants to see battleships fitting capital mods, which is why larger ships should be able to fit smaller ship weapons system without penalty the same one smaller ships fit larger ships mods.
What imbalance are you referring to? In my example of fitting rockets on a Typhoon, if they were bonused the Typhoon would go from 170dps to 230 dps. The typhoons explosion radius would make no difference to the smaller ships since rockets already hit for max on smaller ships.
I cannot see how that is more imbalanced than being able to fit a 1600mm plate on a cruiser, a 50mn MWD on a destroyer or a large shield extender on a T3.
Oh I forgot another system that was designed for battleships but which is used extremely well by smaller ships, Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones.
XL shield boosters, Large shield boosters can also be added to the list of oversized mods.
the fact that you need support to fully use a large ship seems unbalanced to you? well in regards to plats and shield extenders they are balanced for you to fit up same with boosters with it being easier to fit plates and boosters (this is why they each have an XL size) as for oversize prop mod many would argue that it is imballanced and have been fighting to remove the possibility the reason fitting smaller guns is not the same is you can now get = or greater DPS than a smaller ship but with no draw back other than potential dps. when fitting larger sized mods you can't get = or greater tank and you have to make sacrifices in the rest of the fittings to accommodate for the higher CPU/PG of the larger mods. the agi and sig is also a bigger penalty on a small ship vs a large ship when talking about extenders and plates. tl;dr oversize tank mods are not a good example to justify small weapons on large ships it is just a false dichotomy and over-sized prop mods are already considered OP by a large number of the player base EDIT: so i just looked and depending on range you only need 1-2 webs for a BB to catch up to an overheating oversized ab svip. that is not all that hard to manage Of course its imbalanced if smaller ships don't need support - the definition of imbalanced is that one side has an advantage over the other.
Oversized mods are not a good example? Its not enough to simply state that without providing a reason. I can do the same thing with virtually any statement I can think of.
Here is a well reasoned statement in regards to why it is a good thing.
Small ships are now over-represented in EvE. Its extremely rare to see a battleship in null sec that's not ratting and even the ratting battleships have been all but replaced by drone cruisers using battleship sized drones. Its rare to see a battlecruiser in null sec these days too other than the occasional fleet of hurricanes.
The proliferation of small ships with oversized propulsion mods has led to very unenjoyable game of catch the frigate which given align times is most often impossible unless a frigate is used thus forcing people to give up the larger ships and only fly frigates themselves.
My position is that all ships should ideally be viable PvP ships and the ship you use should be one that you enjoy using; winning fights and non-consentual PvP should be based on skill and experience and not purely on whether you're in a frigate or destroyer.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2967
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Posted - 2016.09.02 11:30:55 -
[23] - Quote
the need of large ships to have support of small ships is how they balance the large ones from having higher DPS and tank if it was not for that there would be no reason to not use large ships.
and yes there are more small than large they are cheaper they are faster and they don't need support. This makes them easier to use and make fleets around but that does not make them better. again look at black ops gangs battle ships are used all the time in them because their fleets are built with strong support and it take just as much time to get a battleship on field as it does a frigate making it easy to bring that support.
Battleships are viable in pvp and i for one enjoy using them and being a part of a fleet built around them. Do you think dreads should get all of their bonuses to small guns? titans? should we bring sub cap drones back to carriers? i mean we should right there are more frigates being used than titans best way to fix that is just give titan bonuses to small guns and let them go blap happy. Its not like there are any points in eve's history we can point to where over application of larges ships became a huge issue .
and i did explain why oversize tank mods were not a good example
Quote: the reason fitting smaller guns is not the same is you can now get = or greater DPS than a smaller ship but with no draw back other than potential dps. when fitting larger sized mods you can't get = or greater tank and you have to make sacrifices in the rest of the fittings to accommodate for the higher CPU/PG of the larger mods. the agi and sig is also a bigger penalty on a small ship vs a large ship when talking about extenders and plates.
did you only read the tl;dr?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2442
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Posted - 2016.09.02 11:45:15 -
[24] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:the need of large ships to have support of small ships is how they balance the large ones from having higher DPS and tank if it was not for that there would be no reason to not use large ships. and yes there are more small than large they are cheaper they are faster and they don't need support. This makes them easier to use and make fleets around but that does not make them better. again look at black ops gangs battle ships are used all the time in them because their fleets are built with strong support and it take just as much time to get a battleship on field as it does a frigate making it easy to bring that support. Battleships are viable in pvp and i for one enjoy using them and being a part of a fleet built around them. Do you think dreads should get all of their bonuses to small guns? titans? should we bring sub cap drones back to carriers? i mean we should right there are more frigates being used than titans best way to fix that is just give titan bonuses to small guns and let them go blap happy. Its not like there are any points in eve's history we can point to where over application of larges ships became a huge issue . and i did explain why oversize tank mods were not a good example Quote: the reason fitting smaller guns is not the same is you can now get = or greater DPS than a smaller ship but with no draw back other than potential dps. when fitting larger sized mods you can't get = or greater tank and you have to make sacrifices in the rest of the fittings to accommodate for the higher CPU/PG of the larger mods. the agi and sig is also a bigger penalty on a small ship vs a large ship when talking about extenders and plates.
did you only read the tl;dr? EDIT: as to your edit yes i do fly battle ships the main ships i fly are Logistics Carriers(a ship speced to kill sub caps that still needs support to do it) and Battleships your argument of "web spect ships don't count cuz deh to good" is just dumb besides that lokies and rapiers can easily cov cloak if you dont want to scare away your target (even cyno in if you want to get fancy) You are incorrect. Smaller ships are balanced by having huge bonuses to speed, agility, sig radius and scan resolution. This is why a single frigate is largely unkillable by a battleship in a 1 vs 1. They can mitigate most of the damaget, dictate range, deal full damage, lock faster and apply ecm, tracking disruptors, damps, webs. In every situation imaginable they can decide to leave before they're locked.
Smaller ships are not used simply because they're cheaper, in most cases the newer smaller ships cost as much as a battlecruiser hull but they're still used because they're too effective and they essentially turn EvE into consensual pvp when you use them - you only have to fight if you think you can win.
Smaller ships should need support to effectively kill larger ships as much as larger ships should need support to effectively kill smaller ships.
I've played since 2003 and that's the way EvE was designed and how it was balanced until recently.
You have still not explained how my suggestion would imbalance the game btw. How is a rocket using Typhoon doing 230dps imbalanced?
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2967
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Posted - 2016.09.02 11:55:11 -
[25] - Quote
no 1v1 a frig will not kill anything but a buffer fit BB with no friends and thats how it should be but properly flown a 10 man fleet built around BBs will stomp 25 frigates <-this is not a bad thing.
no T1 frig has been added that cost as much as a t1 BC no faction frig costs as much as a faction cruiser no t3 desi cost more than a t3 cruiser
now if you mean a t3d cost as much as or more than a t1 BC but apples and oranges
giving better tracking to large ships will not help in any way the risk averse players in eve and you probably won't even see that many more used as it is not the main reason not to use them. one of the biggest as you mentioned is it is harder to pick your engagement in something so big and slow.
larger ships and there fleets also have a much higher skill ceiling this will also put a damper on things.
also yes in the past eve did make it to where big ship> small ship this has changed so that every ship matters or do you want to go back to the days of insta blap titans? because i'll tell you THAT sure put a wrinkle in the validity of BBs
Citadel worm hole tax
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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2442
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Posted - 2016.09.02 12:11:01 -
[26] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:no 1v1 a frig will not kill anything but a buffer fit BB with no friends and thats how it should be but properly flown a 10 man fleet built around BBs will stomp 25 frigates <-this is not a bad thing.
no T1 frig has been added that cost as much as a t1 BC no faction frig costs as much as a faction cruiser no t3 desi cost more than a t3 cruiser
now if you mean a t3d cost as much as or more than a t1 BC but apples and oranges
giving better tracking to large ships will not help in any way the risk averse players in eve and you probably won't even see that many more used as it is not the main reason not to use them. one of the biggest as you mentioned is it is harder to pick your engagement in something so big and slow.
larger ships and there fleets also have a much higher skill ceiling this will also put a damper on things.
also yes in the past eve did make it to where big ship> small ship this has changed so that every ship matters or do you want to go back to the days of insta blap titans? because i'll tell you THAT sure put a wrinkle in the validity of BBs 1 v 1 a frig will always beat a battleship unless its not constrained by its large weapons (specialized drone, nuet, web, scram but these are not battleship traits) but otherwise the battleship will either die to people turning up while its unable to do anything, will die to running out of cap or running out of buffer.
Properly flown 10 battleships will die to 25 properly flown frigates unless they're specialised battleships.
Nobody asked for better tracking, the thread is about battleships being able to fit smaller weapon systems and getting the bonuses for them which would very modestly buff them so they're not sitting ducks while at the same time removing the majority of their DPS.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2968
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Posted - 2016.09.02 12:18:16 -
[27] - Quote
Wait now hold on if more people show up it's no longer a 1v1 is it? And even if there are nuts on the frig most battle ship fits won't cap out.
When did I say 10 a battleships vs 25 fries? Read it again
So again I ask should dreads titans and carriers get the same treatment? There is nothing wrong with a ship balanced around needing support being a sitting duck without it. Nothing is stopping you from fitting small guns and many battleships will still get more dps than a frig if they do but a frig should be built to get more out of each one and a battleship should not be 100% self efficient
Citadel worm hole tax
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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2442
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Posted - 2016.09.02 13:41:25 -
[28] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Wait now hold on if more people show up it's no longer a 1v1 is it? And even if there are nuts on the frig most battle ship fits won't cap out.
When did I say 10 a battleships vs 25 fries? Read it again
So again I ask should dreads titans and carriers get the same treatment? There is nothing wrong with a ship balanced around needing support being a sitting duck without it. Nothing is stopping you from fitting small guns and many battleships will still get more dps than a frig if they do but a frig should be built to get more out of each one and a battleship should not be 100% self efficient It was quite clear the idea was for T1 ships only, not capitals.
Its 1 vs 1 if the battleship is held by a single frigate and cannot do anything to counter that until the back up arrives. A frigate can hold a battleship as long as it wants to. The frigate can leave anytime and the battleship cannot. The battleship loses if the aim is to escape or kill the frigate. The frigate wins if the aim is to kill the battleship or hold it till back up arrives.
You still have not demonstrated what would be overpowered about my suggestion so I am assuming you have no answer and your opposition is simply one of personal opinion. Thank you for contributing.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4719
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Posted - 2016.09.02 13:52:37 -
[29] - Quote
What are:
Neuts, jams, drones, smartbombs, mobile depots + WCS, webs, grapples, paints, MJD, RHML...(or, y'know, SUPPORT like a BS is supposed to have)
Of course, because this doesn't agree with your point you'll write this all off as 'specialist', as if fitting for what you're likely to face is somehow a bad idea... |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2970
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Posted - 2016.09.02 13:58:35 -
[30] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Wait now hold on if more people show up it's no longer a 1v1 is it? And even if there are nuts on the frig most battle ship fits won't cap out.
When did I say 10 a battleships vs 25 fries? Read it again
So again I ask should dreads titans and carriers get the same treatment? There is nothing wrong with a ship balanced around needing support being a sitting duck without it. Nothing is stopping you from fitting small guns and many battleships will still get more dps than a frig if they do but a frig should be built to get more out of each one and a battleship should not be 100% self efficient It was quite clear the idea was for T1 ships only, not capitals. Its 1 vs 1 if the battleship is held by a single frigate and cannot do anything to counter that until the back up arrives. A frigate can hold a battleship as long as it wants to. The frigate can leave anytime and the battleship cannot. The battleship loses if the aim is to escape or kill the frigate. The frigate wins if the aim is to kill the battleship or hold it till back up arrives. You still have not demonstrated what would be overpowered about my suggestion so I am assuming you have no answer and your opposition is simply one of personal opinion. Thank you for contributing.
Why does the frig get backup but not the BB?
How is making the only way too kill a BB is by using another BB not overpowered. And should sub caps always be able to fit down but not capitals?
Thinking about it I do enjoy your earlier point about if a BB has support small ships just won't fight it. So what you are saying is a battleship with support is too powerful but you can't understand why a battleships that don't need support is broken.
Citadel worm hole tax
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