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Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1328
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:56:51 -
[61] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:The last few comments ...
Mr. Egivand, Ms. Vess.
I think, you're neither of you very different from the people around me.
Nor any better than they are. Nor much worse, I think. Only,
For all the warnings I've had, that I was being manipulated, trapped, brainwashed, made a prisoner and slave ... the only real treachery I've tasted, has been from those on your side of this question.
Those who hate the Amarr, whose actions are purified by their hate. Who can do no wrong, as long as it is in service to their hatred.
I don't say that the Amarr cannot be treacherous. But even Nauplius, the Butcher, rewarded my trust.
The people who make me the most sympathetic to the Amarr, who do the most to extend my loyalty from Directrix Daphiti personally to the Empire generally, are the people who despise them.
I'll try not to learn your lessons too well. I don't wish to become distorted in such a way. Mostly I've seen the kindest of the Amarr, the most generous at spirit. I don't want to start to think that's all there is.
If you'll take such thoughts from someone so entangled with your enemies, though-- there's darkness anywhere I look, anywhere I go. Sometimes it's deep, and thick; sometime strange, stretched, and hard to understand. Sometimes it's hard even to see. But it's always there.
If you don't fight amongst yourselves, if you don't "really argue"-- I'd ask you why you think that is. What unites you so.
I don't think it's something bright.
Let me start off by saying my words here don't reflect any other person's thoughts but my own. I can assure you we disagree on numerous things more than likely even with the words I'm saying. Is that a bad thing? No not in the least. They have their own path they must follow as I have my own. I fully respect that right just as I would assume they respect my path I must walk.
Your absolutely right, we are no better or worse than those who you surround yourself around. The only difference between us and them is our destinies are written by ourselves, theirs are dictated by some omnipotent deity of times old. Thats their prerogative. Anything I said in those warnings you speak of take as you will. Controlling or imprisoning by telling you to leave your options open is a funny and rather ineffective way of control and I wish the Amarr followed that method. Maybe my message got distorted in translation? Wouldn't surprise me honestly.
Those who hate Amarr don't do it out of hate, though maybe you don't believe it. Unless such things as "Caldari independence was fought for simply because you didn't like the way they talked." We were attacked at a time of weakness and exploited for centuries. Obviously in the end those who truly are responsible are long dead, and personally I agree with that notion. HOWEVER there still are many among their ranks who still wish harm to us, those who still feel that the antiquated notion of slavery being a teaching method or simply that the "holy light" from a tachyon laser works to convert "those unwashed savages." Hate breeds hate, nobodies hands are clean in a mud throwing contest. These thoughts aren't unique to Amarr as a people any more than the Matari people. Though they sure do seem to be thrown about in the scriptures still.
As a side point it should be realized that since our peoples first met animosity has been present. Our peoples have come together for things such as the Sansha incursions, Drifters invasion, Pakashi Peace Conference, ect and what wasn't present and in the forefront? Scriptures.
Frankly you shouldn't learn my lessons. Your not me. You also shouldn't learn Egivand's lessons, or Daphiti's lessons for that matter. Its your own path, start walking it under your own power.
Finally, what unites us? Not a thing..... We all know we have to do whats necessary for ourselves and our clans/kin. We all respect that our paths are not the same or similar even. The desire to see ourselves prosper and those who share our blood. This is much more achievable than having numerous races pointing to the same line of text from a centuries old manuscript and assuring themselves that their specific interpretation is the one true one. The First Elders all were great whether its the Sebiestor one or not.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1989
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Posted - 2016.09.07 17:04:18 -
[62] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Of course we actually, literally, often notice. But if they're not asking for help, why would we shame them by imposing it? Why shame them by making it obvious that they've been seen, when, in all likelihood, they didn't want to be?
Hardship can happen to anyone. There is no shame in it. The only shame is in giving up, or leaving people in suffering and misery when you can help them.
Consider, perhaps, that if you did not attach a stigma to it, they might very well plead for help. That the only reason they 'didn't want to be' seen is because they've been taught that it lessens them, makes them 'bad'.
No-one is immune to hardship. If they are picking through a junk pile, then they are still trying to survive, still fighting to move forward and recover. Spirits below, that is admirable. That is sacred. They are still striving, whether for themselves or for their children, they continue to try to work, even as society has failed them. And the response is... to continue to fail them? To shun them for the crime of being unwilling to give up and die?
Your kind-hearted person isn't leaving quickly to avoid embarrassing the couple. The couple are focused on survival. That kind-hearted person is leaving quickly because they do not want to face the reality that the same thing could happen to them. Often, the critical factor is something we never had any chance of controlling. A litte good luck at the right moment can open a door, give you a moment to seize that leads to great things. A little bad luck at the wrong moment, and the door never opens, but a pit does, and try as you might, you just can't quite get a firm enough hold to keep from slipping into the darkness.
That kind-hearted person doesn't want to be reminded of that, or that hardship is always one bad day, one bad moment away. And maybe, just maybe, they don't want to face the guilty reality that other human beings suffer while they live comfortably. A conscience is a terrible thing to rouse.
Quote:No one likes to be seen in a situation like that.
I think most would vastly prefer to be seen, if being seen meant a chance to get out of that situation, and not just more social stigma from the people who could help, but do nothing. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2244
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Posted - 2016.09.07 18:10:10 -
[63] - Quote
Thank you for your kind remarks, Ms. Arrendis. But I think you misunderstand a little.
Let's talk for a moment about the Caldari State's approach to poverty.
Caste in the State is determined by career. It ranges from Laborer and Technician up the ranks to the well-off Executive and nigh-dynastic Chief Executive castes. There are various others.
There's one, though, that isn't really a caste or category at all-- "Nonentity." It covers people who've lost their corporate citizenship, lost all means of staying part of Caldari society. They lose their legal protections, become not-people. A lot of them kill themselves rather than live that kind of existence. There are communities of them on most settled Caldari worlds.
It seems cruel. It is cruel.
The Caldari developed on a cold world; Caldari Prime's been described as a ball of mud and ice studded with trees. It's really hard to survive there alone, so, their approach to survival was collective. Those who could contribute, or who could be supported by loved ones, were allowed to stay.
Those who couldn't-- who couldn't aid the survival of the group, and who could no longer be supported, who became a burden on the community and a threat to its survival-- were thrown out into the snow to die.
(Which is the honorable thing to do if you find yourself in that situation, by Caldari standards: die.)
The Nonentities are those who have been thrown out into the snow. They're not part of the community anymore.
Achura (aka Saisio III) is different from Caldari Prime. The Caldari grew up with long, bitter winters and a short growing season; the Achura grew up with earthquakes and violent storms. Build your house of earthwork or stone, and the shaking ground will bring it raining down on you and your family; build your house of light wood and paper or reeds, and the wind will rip it away from above your head.
Caldari Prime will freeze you if you're not ready for it. Achura will break everything you own, whether you're ready for it or not.
Some of the lessons they teach are the same, though, enough that the Caldari recognize us as spiritual kin. We live as communities. Communities work together to survive. We exist for each other, not for ourselves. "I" am transient. "We" are not.
It's not hardship that is shameful. It's being a burden that is shameful. It's demanding help from others, when you can recover on your own, that is shameful.
We don't throw people out into the snow, Ms. Arrendis. We've never really had to do that. Those who can't work often carry knowledge and experiences to aid those who can; it's insight, more than material wealth, that we value. Having to depend on others is not something we normally kill ourselves over.
But making others support you, explicitly, by demand, or implicitly, by showing yourself in need-- that is something shameful (but often necessary). Those who are having difficulties, but muddling through them, often can't very well help the last. So we choose not to shame them by making them burdens.
To struggle is not shameful. To be unable to pull your own weight is.
You speak of survival, of fighting to move foreward and recover, as an admirable, sacred thing, Ms. Arrendis. We agree. We are survivor cultures.
Maybe that sometimes makes us cruel. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
6274
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Posted - 2016.09.07 18:35:20 -
[64] - Quote
I should point out that whilst The State won't lift a finger to help those who have lost everything it is well within the purview of individuals with resources to spare to do so.
The Tuulinen Foundation got it's start as a means of rehabilitating those dispossessed without a criminal record. You can find other individuals and organisations doing exactly the same. The nice thing about the system is that the minute such an individual signs a contract they immediately recover their pride and their place within society - no charity, no loans held over their heads.
As my former-kirjuun points out, this is what somebody who had spare food at winter time would do.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1992
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Posted - 2016.09.07 18:49:16 -
[65] - Quote
After some consideration, Ms. Jenneth, I'm going to move this to the 'Caldari sociology' thread, so as not to further derail the party news, and because, well, we're getting into Caldari sociology. |
Vollhov Jr
SOERI Academy RED University
86
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Posted - 2016.09.08 11:53:04 -
[66] - Quote
Purity of the Throne Purity of the Throne
August 21 117:
Jamyl Sarum: 'Final Journey'
My elder brother: Vollhov
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2020
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Posted - 2016.09.08 12:49:17 -
[67] - Quote
You're really kinda pathological, aincha? |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1423
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Posted - 2016.09.08 12:53:20 -
[68] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:You're really kinda pathological, aincha?
Don't speak to the gremlin lest he infest your ship too.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Vollhov Jr
SOERI Academy RED University
86
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Posted - 2016.09.08 13:39:42 -
[69] - Quote
Insult. How sweet of you.
August 21 117:
Jamyl Sarum: 'Final Journey'
My elder brother: Vollhov
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2020
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Posted - 2016.09.08 13:51:47 -
[70] - Quote
Oh, honey, baby, that wasn't insult. Even Kimmie's never actually had me get insulting. |
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2264
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Posted - 2016.09.08 15:55:20 -
[71] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Oh, honey, baby, that wasn't insult. Even Kimmie's never actually had me get insulting.
Although I think your high standards for what constitutes insult might actually get in your way sometimes, Ms. Arrendis.
(Insult is subjective. Comparing my worldview to that of an infamous Sani Sabik mass murderer does not make me want to talk to you very much even if you have a point, whether you consider it insulting or not.) |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2023
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Posted - 2016.09.08 15:59:09 -
[72] - Quote
Ms. Jenneth - it's very easy to be obnoxious and offensive without actually rising to the level of insulting someone. Usually it involves being accurate about things they don't want to hear. True insults, though... now there's an art form. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2264
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Posted - 2016.09.08 16:00:47 -
[73] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ms. Jenneth - it's very easy to be obnoxious and offensive without actually rising to the level of insulting someone. Usually it involves being accurate about things they don't want to hear. True insults, though... now there's an art form.
Again: subjective. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2023
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Posted - 2016.09.08 16:06:34 -
[74] - Quote
All art is! |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2265
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 16:17:41 -
[75] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:All art is!
Well ... if you insist on people not listening to you because you're too dedicated to your art to allow for common courtesy....
I guess I won't get in your way. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
1594
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Posted - 2016.09.12 05:22:40 -
[76] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Can I come ? I shot at Drifters in Safizon.
Well ? Can I ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
440
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Posted - 2016.09.12 15:06:19 -
[77] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:Can I come ? I shot at Drifters in Safizon. Well ? Can I ?
After what you've done?
Never.
You... bracket-witch.
Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
1597
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Posted - 2016.09.12 17:16:37 -
[78] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:Can I come ? I shot at Drifters in Safizon. Well ? Can I ? After what you've done? Never. You... bracket-witch.
Well, that's just rude.
)
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2171
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Posted - 2016.09.12 17:26:20 -
[79] - Quote
Now that's cold. |
Jason Galente
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
719
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Posted - 2016.09.13 20:17:03 -
[80] - Quote
A lot of this conflict with the Drifters seems random and disconnected. Where can I read more about the start of the conflict and anything we know about the Drifters themselves? I know that's a broad request but anything would be useful.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2367
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Posted - 2016.09.13 20:54:24 -
[81] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:A lot of this conflict with the Drifters seems random and disconnected. Where can I read more about the start of the conflict and anything we know about the Drifters themselves? I know that's a broad request but anything would be useful.
You might drop in at the "Arataka Communications Router" channel, Mr. Galente. Talking about the Drifters is kind of what it's for.
... and it'd be good to see you there. |
Alizebeth Amalath
Order of Jamyl
448
|
Posted - 2016.09.24 17:55:48 -
[82] - Quote
Due to an illness in the family, I will not be able to hold this service at this time. My most sincere regrets. A new date and time will be posted when I know more. |
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
526
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Posted - 2016.09.24 19:12:26 -
[83] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:A lot of this conflict with the Drifters seems random and disconnected. Where can I read more about the start of the conflict and anything we know about the Drifters themselves? I know that's a broad request but anything would be useful. A broad subject indeed. We've been documenting most of it, if not all, you can start reading around this part. You can also tune in to our public galnet page for more developments - our SMM team does top notch job at bringing the info to the public.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
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