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Oduk Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2016.09.12 15:05:25 -
[1] - Quote
I recently returned to EVE after a multi-year hiatus and I brought a number of friends with me. Unfortunately, after a few months in, every one of those new players has bailed out. They loved the game, but found that most of their time and profits were going into refitting ships and avoiding gankers. (personally, I had enough cash reserves that I could float them for awhile, but even with that, the game ceased to be fun).
I realize that ganking is a part of the game (for better or worse) and that to use the EULA or code of conduct to correct it would be a complete violation of the open concept of the game. However, ganking is creating an untenable environment for new players and it's ultimately hurting the game.
The main problem is that, unlike the real world, the benefits of ganking *far* outweigh the deterrents. The game mechanics don't allow players to impose any sort of meaningful punishment on the gankers. It is essentially a no-risk activity.
In the real world, the threat and reality of permanent death either deters the behavior or limits the repeatability. That's not the case in EVE. Gankers often respawn and suicide attack repeatedly in a single sortie. There should be a cool-down timer on respawns for illegal attackers based on the security level of the area and the standing of the player with the dominant faction. This would help to level the playing field and deter spam ganking in high-sec while allowing the wild west in other areas. This would be totally inline with "reality" as upstanding citizens should have priority over criminals at the vats.
Incarceration serves as a deterrent for criminals in reality and it takes them out of circulation where they can't do any harm. However, in EVE, Concord just kills you and you immediately respawn. Gankers just laugh at the threat and will smash into you with a cop standing right next to you. If Concord had the ability to capture and detain (or block respawns), it would be much more of a threat and inconvenience to the gankers. Again, like reality, incarceration time could be implemented as a function of the security level of the zone where they were captured and the standing of the player with the dominant faction (or with Concord). For those who cry that this would inconvenience the gankers, consider the players who rely on "high sec" actually being "high sec". As it is today, the security levels just range from "get killed by NPCs" to "get killed by players".
In reality, law enforcement would also have the ability to seize the the proceeds of illegal activity and assets of criminals if caught, a mechanism that doesn't exist in EVE today. If players want to live the thug-life, let them have the thrill of the risk as well. Force them to hide assets or risk impound/confiscation by Concord. That would likely keep all but the most determined gankers out of Concord space.
The game also allows the gankers full benefit of the infrastructure and technology (cloning, stargates, markets) which would, in a real society, be continually adjusted and monitored to help prevent the support of illegal activity. Ships can be filtered and restricted at acceleration gates, so why wouldn't law enforcement put filters on stargates? (or at least monitor entry and pursue when a known criminal enters their space). Make criminals cross the border through the woods if they're deep enough in the red to be on a no-entry list. Either that or implement "false identity"/"fake transponder" equipment that they'd need to keep buying in order to keep using the gates in high-sec.
None of these suggestions would eliminate ganking, but it would help to push it out of high-sec and still stay within the game reality. Citizens of high-sec regions would have been pushing officials to deal with the terrorist threat and demanding that Concord step up. Truly determined gankers could still hunt in high-sec, but at least the risks would be a bit more realistic and new players/alts would have somewhat of a safe harbor to play in and level up.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
18009
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Posted - 2016.09.12 15:19:07 -
[2] - Quote
No
Click me
=]|[=
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2709
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Posted - 2016.09.12 15:36:43 -
[3] - Quote
Oduk Amatin wrote:The main problem is that, unlike the real world, the benefits of ganking *far* outweigh the deterrents. The game mechanics don't allow players to impose any sort of meaningful punishment on the gankers. It is essentially a no-risk activity.
In the real world, the threat and reality of permanent death either deters the behavior or limits the repeatability. That's not the case in EVE. Gankers often respawn and suicide attack repeatedly in a single sortie. There should be a cool-down timer on respawns for illegal attackers based on the security level of the area and the standing of the player with the dominant faction. This would help to level the playing field and deter spam ganking in high-sec while allowing the wild west in other areas. This would be totally inline with "reality" as upstanding citizens should have priority over criminals at the vats.
Incarceration serves as a deterrent for criminals in reality and it takes them out of circulation where they can't do any harm... Eve is a game, not real life. Criminals and criminal game play have been purposely put in the game by CCP for many reasons we can get into in detail, but in short CCP thinks it makes the game more interesting. How would locking out players from playing as a criminal make for good game play? Wouldn't it just be better to turn off aggression in highsec and let the highsec criminals go do something else in Eve than force them to stare at their screens unable to undock?
Oduk Amatin wrote:In reality, law enforcement would also have the ability to seize the the proceeds of illegal activity and assets of criminals if caught, a mechanism that doesn't exist in EVE today. If players want to live the thug-life, let them have the thrill of the risk as well. Force them to hide assets or risk impound/confiscation by Concord. That would likely keep all but the most determined gankers out of Concord space. Again this isn't reality. In reality, a criminal might expect to get away with a crime rather than an omnipotent, infallible police force exploding them 100% of the time.
If you completely removed the profit motivation for pirates, why would they engage in the activity in the first place? Aside from the odd whale which take significant effort to identify, highsec piracy isn't very profitable ever since insurance was removed for criminals. That doesn't seem like a good idea to foster the criminal game play CCP wants to take place in highsec.
Oduk Amatin wrote:None of these suggestions would eliminate ganking, but it would help to push it out of high-sec and still stay within the game reality. Citizens of high-sec regions would have been pushing officials to deal with the terrorist threat and demanding that Concord step up. Truly determined gankers could still hunt in high-sec, but at least the risks would be a bit more realistic and new players/alts would have somewhat of a safe harbor to play in and level up.
It already takes significant determination to play the game as a highsec criminal - multiple accounts, dedicated alts, external funding and so forth - setting a high bar to get in as a solo career criminal, and it is even harder to make a living at it. So much so that highsec ganking is probably at or near all times lows. Highsec has never been safer.
If you are having problems dealing with gankers, I suggest you ask for some advice in another section of these forums or in another place to get some tips on the simple things you can do that make you almost perfectly safe from being attacked in highsec.
CCP intends for you to have to protect your stuff in highsec. There are more than enough tools to do so so I suggest you try to use them before you ask for the yet one more (or in your case several more) nerf that will finally make highsec criminal game play "balanced".
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1851
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Posted - 2016.09.12 17:17:30 -
[4] - Quote
Oduk Amatin wrote:Gankers often respawn and suicide attack repeatedly in a single sortie.
If Concord had the ability to capture and detain (or block respawns), it would be much more of a threat and inconvenience to the gankers
Force them to hide assets or risk impound/confiscation by Concord. That would likely keep all but the most determined gankers out of Concord space.
The game also allows the gankers full benefit of the infrastructure and technology (cloning, stargates, markets) which would, in a real society, be continually adjusted and monitored to help prevent the support of illegal activity. Ships can be filtered and restricted at acceleration gates, so why wouldn't law enforcement put filters on stargates? (or at least monitor entry and pursue when a known criminal enters their space). Make criminals cross the border through the woods if they're deep enough in the red to be on a no-entry list. Either that or implement "false identity"/"fake transponder" equipment that they'd need to keep buying in order to keep using the gates in high-sec.
None of these suggestions would eliminate ganking, but it would help to push it out of high-sec and still stay within the game reality. Citizens of high-sec regions would have been pushing officials to deal with the terrorist threat and demanding that Concord step up. Truly determined gankers could still hunt in high-sec, but at least the risks would be a bit more realistic and new players/alts would have somewhat of a safe harbor to play in and level up.
Going to ignore your first half since its utter bs. Making side by side comparisons to real life and the comments about how ganking is bad for new players. All debunked thousands of times
Let's start off with the rest of your terrible ideas now:
Gankers do not "respawn", they get a 15 minute criminal timer which means ANY ship they board is instantly killed by concord for the duration. Obviously this extends to players as well ( if you're somehow faster than concord)
As above, a suicide ganker is limited to their capsule for a full 15 minutes after their last hostile action. There's no point detaining them.
Concord have no jurisdiction at any station not owned by them. Makes no sense at all for them to be somehow able to control assets of other corporations when they are effectively a consequence system and not a police force as so many people ( including yourself) would like to believe.
Again, it makes no sense why station services would be denied to people suicide ganking. What WOULD make sense is if the people doing the ganking get standings with whatever faction is opposed to the one getting ganked and losing standings with the one he ganked. This could provide some interesting situations where a ganker will be pursued by faction police somewhere if he ganks too much.
The different empires have their own police for reasons you know. They set up their own defence force to combat what they deem to not be wanted in their space. Instead of being a whine machine and expect CCP to invent some kind of NPC guardian angel to prevent you from being ganked why not use the many tools already available to you to prevent it from happening.
Or I don't know, start your own police force that suicide ganks gankers before they can hit their intended target.
Art of Explosions
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2301
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Posted - 2016.09.12 17:27:44 -
[5] - Quote
Oduk Amatin wrote:I recently returned to EVE after a multi-year hiatus and I brought a number of friends with me. Unfortunately, after a few months in, every one of those new players has bailed out. They loved the game, but found that most of their time and profits were going into refitting ships and avoiding gankers. (personally, I had enough cash reserves that I could float them for awhile, but even with that, the game ceased to be fun).
Why did your friends fail to adapt by making themselves less attractive gank targets?
This is not difficult to do.
The economics of ganking are only "unbalanced" because chumps/perpetual victims refuse to adapt.
Someone came along and blew up your Mackinaw, you responded by getting a new Mackinaw and getting blown up in the same damn system the very next day!
Why didn't you relocate? Why didn't you use a Skiff instead? Whose fault is this, really?
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4759
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Posted - 2016.09.12 17:31:09 -
[6] - Quote
What kind of new players were carrying enough stuff to make ganking them profitable?
And I'll leave it to someone else to link the study, instead I'll give you the old chestnut.
Just one more nerf and it'll be balanced!
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26814
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Posted - 2016.09.12 18:45:14 -
[7] - Quote
Oduk Amatin wrote:Gankers often respawn and suicide attack repeatedly in a single sortie. There should be a cool-down timer on respawns There is a 15 minute timer (Global Criminal Countdown) in which Concord will WTFBBQPWN anything, that isn't a pod, that a suicide ganker undocks in; which is why it's mechanically impossible for suicide gankers to "respawn" and attack repeatedly in a single sortie.
I suggest that you learn how the current mechanics work before suggesting "improvements".
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
416
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Posted - 2016.09.12 19:48:18 -
[8] - Quote
what ralph said
GÖú Theory-Crafter GÖú Free Agent GÖú Immortal Space Pirate GÖú "Better the Devil you Know than the devil you don't" -Observing and dismantling F&I Discussion Threads since 2013Gäó
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FT Cold
R3d Fire Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
86
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Posted - 2016.09.12 19:53:16 -
[9] - Quote
Blah blah blah, it's a game not real life, gankers fronload risk, and yes these changes would kill ganking. Same stupid debunked garbage over and over again. Ganking should be made easier, not harder. It's about the only fun thing left to do in this stagnant risk averse cesspit of a game. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3518
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Posted - 2016.09.12 20:05:32 -
[10] - Quote
No.
The only reason the rewards of ganking are bigger than the losses is because you make yourself profitable gank. Dont be dumb, don't be lazy and you wont get ganked.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2016.09.12 20:28:44 -
[11] - Quote
Oduk Amatin wrote:
The main problem is that, unlike the real world, the benefits of ganking *far* outweigh the deterrents. The game mechanics don't allow players to impose any sort of meaningful punishment on the gankers. It is essentially a no-risk activity.
In the real world, the threat and reality of permanent death either deters the behavior or limits the repeatability. That's not the case in EVE.
SNIP
Did you know that in the waters off the Somali coast, and in other similar areas, there are in fact real modern pirates? In spite of the waters being patrolled by multiple naval forces.
Generally speaking these pirates use cheap boats, and shock tactics. They get in, get their booty/hostages, and get out. The navy (concord) respond when they get a distress call, but often it is too late. If you want it to be more like real life, make it so you have to open a chat window with concord first (and make ECM block chatting).
How about bank robbers. One would think that the profitability of robbing a bank would be poor, given that law enforcement generally "get their man" (sometimes they just "get a man" irrespective of guilt). Oddly, there are still plenty of bank robbers. Or convenience store robbers.
I'm not a ganker. The playstyle isn't appealing to me. I've also never been ganked (at least, not hisec ganked). That said, if you're making yourselves an easy target, that's on you. Tank your ship more and haul less. |
Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
417
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Posted - 2016.09.12 20:32:10 -
[12] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:Oduk Amatin wrote:
The main problem is that, unlike the real world, the benefits of ganking *far* outweigh the deterrents. The game mechanics don't allow players to impose any sort of meaningful punishment on the gankers. It is essentially a no-risk activity.
In the real world, the threat and reality of permanent death either deters the behavior or limits the repeatability. That's not the case in EVE.
SNIP
Did you know that in the waters off the Somali coast, and in other similar areas, there are in fact real modern pirates? In spite of the waters being patrolled by multiple naval forces. Generally speaking these pirates use cheap boats, and shock tactics. They get in, get their booty/hostages, and get out. The navy (concord) respond when they get a distress call, but often it is too late. If you want it to be more like real life, make it so you have to open a chat window with concord first (and make ECM block chatting). How about bank robbers. One would think that the profitability of robbing a bank would be poor, given that law enforcement generally "get their man" (sometimes they just "get a man" irrespective of guilt). Oddly, there are still plenty of bank robbers. Or convenience store robbers. I'm not a ganker. The playstyle isn't appealing to me. I've also never been ganked (at least, not hisec ganked). That said, if you're making yourselves an easy target, that's on you. Tank your ship more and haul less.
Does this mean i can open a chat with CONCORD and flood it with worthless nonsense and memes to slow down response times? because if so thats totally not abusable
GÖú Theory-Crafter GÖú Free Agent GÖú Immortal Space Pirate GÖú "Better the Devil you Know than the devil you don't" -Observing and dismantling F&I Discussion Threads since 2013Gäó
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Voxinian
104
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Posted - 2016.09.12 20:44:17 -
[13] - Quote
Don't be a target, simple. If you pose yourself as an interesting target then you can expect attention in EVE.
For a large part you are in control over your experiences in EVE. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
828
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Posted - 2016.09.12 22:02:41 -
[14] - Quote
I was ganked my first week in eve. that was many many years ago so obviously I stayed around. I just take breaks when other games I see need more attention. I go on an ARPG kick...this game obviously not meeting that requirement lol. Always wander back here though lol.
See I came to this game knowing and accepting it had a strong pvp emphasis. I mixed/mix my pve and pvp in other games, eve is/was just a new place to do that. CCP never lied here, or false advertised. PVP is at its core, even non-consensual.
PLayers if they are leaving due to ganks I have no concern over. They picked the wrong game, it happens sometimes, they should find a game more suited to them. Not a **** gb2wow statement...its their time and their money, one should always spend that where they really like and want to. Foolish to not do this this really.
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Sydney Rayns
The Grand Fenwick Expeditionary Force
0
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Posted - 2016.09.13 06:41:08 -
[15] - Quote
Ganking has no risk, and to think otherwise is ridicules. If they want to kill something let them wardec, even the NPC corps. Killing outside a wardec should have a fine of at least the ship cost. Forces the ganker to plan better if they are willing to take risk outside a wardec. If they feel their chances of drops will out weigh the fine, then more power to them. |
FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
682
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Posted - 2016.09.13 06:52:39 -
[16] - Quote
i drive 10b bowheads through Uedama and Niarja in US prime time without even getting locked... it isnt hard iof you take basic precautions |
Captain Campion
Captain Campion Corporation 1
27
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Posted - 2016.09.13 08:27:36 -
[17] - Quote
I think high sec ganking should be banned, it is not fun for most players. |
FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
683
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Posted - 2016.09.13 09:02:25 -
[18] - Quote
Except for the gankers...
Can i have your stuff? |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
994
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Posted - 2016.09.13 09:06:23 -
[19] - Quote
Oduk Amatin wrote:Gankers often respawn and suicide attack repeatedly in a single sortie. A criminal timer lasts 15 minutes and criminals cannot board a new ship while in space and if they undock while criminal, will be immediately CONCORDed.
I don't think you quite understand what you think.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Bad Pennyy
Abraxas Rising
5
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Posted - 2016.09.13 09:11:34 -
[20] - Quote
Your observation is astute. I recently started a different thread thinking about this as a problem with parity and risk:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6629740#post6629740
One other way to deal with this in high sec would be to significantly lower the cost to war dec corporations with terrible security status standings. It's not a bullet proof approach but it gives a way to be proactive about ganking. |
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Anthar Thebess
1636
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Posted - 2016.09.13 10:04:33 -
[21] - Quote
The simplest solution to make gankers in gore you is to move less stuff. If you are not profitable target that will require big investment in ships and people - you will be ignored. Next thing is moving out of higsec - there is plenty of space and alliances you can join.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3519
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Posted - 2016.09.13 12:38:22 -
[22] - Quote
Captain Campion wrote:I think high sec ganking should be banned, it is not fun for most players.
When a freighter is getting ganked, 20 players are having fun. One player is not having fun.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3519
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Posted - 2016.09.13 12:39:09 -
[23] - Quote
Bad Pennyy wrote:Your observation is astute. I recently started a different thread thinking about this as a problem with parity and risk: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6629740#post6629740 One other way to deal with this in high sec would be to significantly lower the cost to war dec corporations with terrible security status standings. It's not a bullet proof approach but it gives a way to be proactive about ganking.
What does wardeccing a ganker do? They can be shot anywhere without a dec.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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ISD Max Trix
isd community communications liaisons
362
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Posted - 2016.09.13 12:53:03 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Falcon has outlined his thoughts on EVE and touched on this issue Here. I would also point out that PVP can not be avoided in eve. In Fact if you review the EVE FAQ its listed at 7.2 "CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
As this issue has been discussed in depth before, I will close this thread.
ISD Max Trix
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
I do not respond to Evemails.
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