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Haunting Widow
Honor Forge Joint Operation Involving Nobodys
11
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Posted - 2016.09.13 02:14:02 -
[1] - Quote
Simple, if the issuer has docking rights, then they should be able to authorize a docking permit to be part and parcel with any courier contracts coming to or from a citadel they have docking rights to. Players who expressly do not have docking access should not be able to accept the contracts. Any player who is able to see and accept the contract would then be given a single use docking permit to deliver the contract regardless of what the citadel owner does after the contract is issued/accepted.
What do you think?? Because right now people are seriously avoiding citadel courier contracts due to scam potential. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2305
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Posted - 2016.09.13 02:20:19 -
[2] - Quote
Haunting Widow wrote:Simple, if the issuer has docking rights, then they should be able to authorize a docking permit to be part and parcel with any courier contracts coming to or from a citadel they have docking rights to. Players who expressly do not have docking access should not be able to accept the contracts. Any player who is able to see and accept the contract would then be given a single use docking permit to deliver the contract regardless of what the citadel owner does after the contract is issued/accepted.
What do you think?? Because right now people are seriously avoiding citadel courier contracts due to scam potential.
No, merely having docking rights should not, under any circumstance, allow you to grant anyone else ANY form of right on a structure.
Merely having rights doesn't give you the authority to grant rights, however temporary. It's not your structure just because someone lets you dock at it.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3572
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Posted - 2016.09.13 02:29:02 -
[3] - Quote
Get docking rights in a citadel, issue 1m courier contracts to 50 people who then bring in entire freighters worth of personal loads. Too easy to abuse.
If you want to change courier contracts to Citadels (& could probably include stations in this) would be to allow them to be completed when inside the docking range of a Citadel or station without needing to specifically dock. Assuming the person who issued the contract had docking rights. That would prevent people from using it to bring other items into the station under other characters API's. |
Rivr Luzade
Viziam Amarr Empire
2726
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Posted - 2016.09.13 06:06:42 -
[4] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Get docking rights in a citadel, issue 1m courier contracts to 50 people who then bring in entire freighters worth of personal loads. Too easy to abuse.
If you want to change courier contracts to Citadels (& could probably include stations in this) would be to allow them to be completed when inside the docking range of a Citadel or station without needing to specifically dock. Assuming the person who issued the contract had docking rights. That would prevent people from using it to bring other items into the station under other characters API's. The thing is, you cannot use them in the citadels. This was also my concern with random docking rights. However, even if enemies throw loads of assets into your citadel, you can just prevent them from using your services and thus they are stuck with tons of items in the citadel. The way citadels work with asset safety, it is not the holder of the citadel that ends up screwed, but the asset owners because you can just dismantle your citadel or make other people destroy it to force tons of assets into item safety, which costs the asset owner money and not the citadel owner.
One way or another, currently it's nearly completely unfeasible to take a courier contract to any citadel other than the known market hubs. And even they are tricky: For instance, there are 2 Fortizars from 2 corps in Perimeter with 2 nearly identical corp logos, however, only one has public docking rights. The info on docking access is obviously available in the Services tab, but it's still way too easy to trick people into thinking they deliver somewhere else. Taking the first paragraph into consideration, there need to be ways to complete courier contracts if you had docking rights when you took the contracts.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises The Craftsmen
31
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Posted - 2016.09.13 14:28:10 -
[5] - Quote
Would be fun though if I could just jettison the cargo in front of the citadel in case I can't dock.
"Sry, couldn't dock, so I left it on your frontdoor. If someone else grabbed it, your problem, maybe fix your docking rights next time" |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3095
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Posted - 2016.09.13 15:34:12 -
[6] - Quote
don't take contracts to places you can be locked out from.. that has been like hauling 101 since long b4 citadels
BLOPS Hauler
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2309
|
Posted - 2016.09.13 16:39:59 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:don't take contracts to places you can be locked out from.. that has been like hauling 101 since long b4 citadels
Well, "It's always been that way," is an inherently useless argument, so that's not really great, either. The proposal in the OP is quite infeasible, but the current state of courier contracts with respect to player owned structures is far from ideal. The existing mechanics actively deter the intended use of paying-other-people-to-move-****-between-places.
I make heavy use of public courier contracts, and I would actually like people to run courier contracts to and from my citadel, but unless I already have a relationship with a given hauler, they would be fools to take those jobs. So, I have to use an NPC station and last-mile everything myself.
Allowing any jackass with docking rights to be able to grant docking rights to any other jackass just by making a contract is clearly out of the question, but there could easily be some form of limited guarantee based on access rights at the time of acceptance.
As a dead simple example, if a person already has docking rights, and accepts a courier contract to a given citadel, it could simply be made irrevocable for 24 hours (or 48, whatever - max contract duration is probably too long). Put the revocation on a timer to prevent continually refreshing the docking protection with fresh contracts.
Now you have a scenario where there isn't some magical, third-party bypass that usurps control from the citadel owners, but there's also some limited degree of contractual enforcement.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Rivr Luzade
Viziam Amarr Empire
2727
|
Posted - 2016.09.14 06:09:08 -
[8] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:don't take contracts to places you can be locked out from.. that has been like hauling 101 since long b4 citadels Not, it has not been this way. Before citadels, this was not a problem at all in low sec, high sec and NPC null sec. Only sov space had this problem and no one cared because nearly no public contracts go to these destinations. However, now that fluid docking rights are also a mandatory and ever increasing problem in all areas of space, and citadels and coming structures turning into a permanent pain in the ... a permanent feature replacing much if not all the functionalities of NPC stations, this puts a previously negligible problem into a major cause for concern.
In particular with the coming industry structures, you want your couriered deliveries land directly in these structures and not an NPC station (if there are any at all in your systems. Since the purpose of these pains in the ... these new structures is to spread players out more, it's only logical to chose systems without stations for industry structures to benefit longer from low indexes) so that you had to ferry your stuff from there to the structures. If haulers, however, have no way to distinguish between a citadel that allows you to dock regardless and a scam citadel, most people will be very reluctant to take on citadel contracts. To date, I have blocked over 20 people/corps that setup scam contracts and that list is only increasing. If no one can take a contract because you can be locked out (according to your hauler 101), this will pose a serious problem for the future of this entire feature once large parts of the reliable NPC services have been replaced with the unreliable, garbage services that players provide.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
992
|
Posted - 2016.09.14 13:14:17 -
[9] - Quote
I actually like the basic concept of the OP. To eliminate the concerns about anyone and everyone handing out docking rights I do not see this as a problem. If you are not the owner then you can only grant one time limited docking rights to the citadel and then only to allow the deliver of the contracted items and nothing else.
But a better idea that eliminates the entire docking rights issue is simply extend the capabilities of the tether. Given all of the other functions they have why not extend them to work as a conveyor system that can transport items between a tethered ship and the citadel. To prevent most if not all of the abuses the person setting up the contract has to set up the link as a part of the contract, that link would only allow the items from that contract to be transferred to OR from the station (not both) and the conveyor system would dump them into the personal space of the contract holder.
Another thought is to add to the citadel a limit form of public access space where any player can dock for a brief period. Basic though here is the same as the tether idea above only allowing for the ship to actually dock inside the citadel to connect to the conveyor system instead of doing it thorough the tether.
Just a couple of thoughts, but I do agree with the OP there needs to be a way for a contract hauler to make a delivery to a citadel they do not have docking rights to. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3104
|
Posted - 2016.09.14 15:22:46 -
[10] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:don't take contracts to places you can be locked out from.. that has been like hauling 101 since long b4 citadels Not, it has not been this way. Before citadels, this was not a problem at all in low sec, high sec and NPC null sec. Only sov space had this problem and no one cared because nearly no public contracts go to these destinations. However, now that fluid docking rights are also a mandatory and ever increasing problem in all areas of space, and citadels and coming structures turning into a permanent pain in the ... a permanent feature replacing much if not all the functionalities of NPC stations, this puts a previously negligible problem into a major cause for concern. In particular with the coming industry structures, you want your couriered deliveries land directly in these structures and not an NPC station (if there are any at all in your systems. Since the purpose of these pains in the ... these new structures is to spread players out more, it's only logical to chose systems without stations for industry structures to benefit longer from low indexes) so that you had to ferry your stuff from there to the structures. If haulers, however, have no way to distinguish between a citadel that allows you to dock regardless and a scam citadel, most people will be very reluctant to take on citadel contracts. To date, I have blocked over 20 people/corps that setup scam contracts and that list is only increasing. If no one can take a contract because you can be locked out (according to your hauler 101), this will pose a serious problem for the future of this entire feature once large parts of the reliable NPC services have been replaced with the unreliable, garbage services that players provide.
you will always have the option to set up a contract to a near by station or work with people you know. get to know haulers if you want things moved to your citadel otherwise have public contracts set up to npc stations
BLOPS Hauler
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Muffinmixer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2016.09.14 16:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Just let JFs bridge courier packages directly to citadels, without physically having to go to that citadel and dock to it.
Give it the full Jump Fatigue penalty for doing this in one lump sum (first + second jump combined with no rest period), plus like 20% for good measure. Maybe also give the fuel costs an additional 20% penalty.
While you're at it, give Citadels an optional perma-Cyno service that can be used by anyone who has rights to it, and also to bridge Courier packages to the citadel. This will give citadel owners additional control of which citadels can be couriered with by 3rd parties, in case people are still antsy about that.
No need to give temporary docking rights, tethering, anything. The JF can stay neutral and keep a peace of mind that they don't need to jump straight into what's possibly a trap. The citadel owners don't need to worry about a JF pilot using the contract to abuse the tethering/docking rights with malicious intent.
Where's the downside? How do you intercept the JF if he just undocks for a second and bridges the goods over?
This is no different in terms of safety from physically jumping a JF to a citadel. You'd have to be really bad at JF'ing to get caught on a citadel, both when coming in or going out. You tether and can instadock as ssoon as you land. You are tethered when you undock and can jump while still tethered. If you manage to lose a JF on a citadel I don't have any words for you other than "you deserved that loss".
Accruing a greater amount of Jump Fatigue and fuel cost is a pretty severe downside in and of itself that will drive people to physically jump to citadels whenever possible. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2313
|
Posted - 2016.09.14 16:16:14 -
[12] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:don't take contracts to places you can be locked out from.. that has been like hauling 101 since long b4 citadels Not, it has not been this way. Before citadels, this was not a problem at all in low sec, high sec and NPC null sec. Only sov space had this problem and no one cared because nearly no public contracts go to these destinations. However, now that fluid docking rights are also a mandatory and ever increasing problem in all areas of space, and citadels and coming structures turning into a permanent pain in the ... a permanent feature replacing much if not all the functionalities of NPC stations, this puts a previously negligible problem into a major cause for concern. In particular with the coming industry structures, you want your couriered deliveries land directly in these structures and not an NPC station (if there are any at all in your systems. Since the purpose of these pains in the ... these new structures is to spread players out more, it's only logical to chose systems without stations for industry structures to benefit longer from low indexes) so that you had to ferry your stuff from there to the structures. If haulers, however, have no way to distinguish between a citadel that allows you to dock regardless and a scam citadel, most people will be very reluctant to take on citadel contracts. To date, I have blocked over 20 people/corps that setup scam contracts and that list is only increasing. If no one can take a contract because you can be locked out (according to your hauler 101), this will pose a serious problem for the future of this entire feature once large parts of the reliable NPC services have been replaced with the unreliable, garbage services that players provide. you will always have the option to set up a contract to a near by station or work with people you know. get to know haulers if you want things moved to your citadel otherwise have public contracts set up to npc stations
What do you imagine is the actual merit in the status quo here?
You don't seem to be able to articulate an argument against improving the functionality of the contracts with respect to citadels. Explain why courier contracts shouldn't be improved. There's not a person in the thread unfamiliar with the existing workarounds, but that's what they are - a workaround for a poor mechanic that provides insufficient functionality.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
7
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Posted - 2016.09.15 15:17:34 -
[13] - Quote
Its a good simple idea to avoid abuse. Should not be able to isse a courier contract with delivery to a citadel if they cannot guarantee your docking rights.
+1 to OP
If the goal of CCP is to have people use Citadels more heavy and eventually phase out stations this is an absolute must.
All the trolls bitching and complaining is for personal reasons, if CCP never wants to remove stations then sure they can ignore your suggestion. |
Arronicus
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Badfellas Inc.
1510
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Posted - 2016.09.15 17:41:35 -
[14] - Quote
I agree in that I don't think couriers should give people docking passes, because it opens up so many avenues for exploit.
1) I buy a single piece of trit or something in a station I want access to with my alt. I then contract it to my main with a courier contract. My main can now dock at that citadel.
2) I have a spy in a corp, and I want to get in a large enemy fleet. I set up tons of contracts to every enemy ship. They can now all dock up there, even though I had 0 roles within the corp that owns the citadel.
3) I create a contract with the destination of any citadel that I want a character to be able to dock at, they can now dock there.
That's just off the top of my head. Security and access to citadels and other deployables should be able to be strictly controlled, and this sort of, facilitating couriers would absolutely destroy player security.
What I DO think is the only reasonable precautions is a two step process.
First, you have to manually opt-in to see contracts that involve a player owned structure (citadel, engineering facility, etc) as either the drop-off or pick up,
Second, there is a very large 'are you sure' dialogue, when trying to accept said type of contract, with a brief explanation that standings may limit your docking access. |
Rivr Luzade
Viziam Amarr Empire
2728
|
Posted - 2016.09.15 17:59:45 -
[15] - Quote
A notification does not prevent the access removal after you accepted the contract. The amount of risk involved with these citadels is unproportionate to the payment (except for the obvious trap contracts, of course) and that needs to change.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3116
|
Posted - 2016.09.16 03:11:11 -
[16] - Quote
there was an idea posted back when citadels were still on sisi
what if you could flag your citadel as free port(this would show up in contracts) if your citadel is free port anyone can dock to remove your citadel from free port takes one week. once you start that process the flag is instantly removed from contracts listed to your citadel and all current contract holders are notified
BLOPS Hauler
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3160
|
Posted - 2016.09.20 19:56:03 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: One change we are working towards is the ability to place items into your personal hangar in an Upwell structure from outside of that structure (within docking range). I'm not going to lie and tell you that we know exactly when that feature will be done, but it is on our roadmap.
this should help fix this
BLOPS Hauler
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2223
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Posted - 2016.09.21 13:42:16 -
[18] - Quote
Can't we just leave it as is so non deep thinkers can get screwed over as their greed allows?
The current trend where CCP is trying to satisfy needy little self entitled punkass kids is reducing this game to a boring and uninteresting grind where everyone gets a space trophy.
News flash CCP - these needy little bastards don't say thank you when you bow down to them, they move on to the next thing that 'needs' changed. You're throwing stupidshit into a bottomless pit. You're basically being played by 2 groups: Group 1 - needy little bastards that will never be satisfied but will always need just one more free space trophy. Group 2 - savy folk who are out to manipulate the game for their personal enjoyment (that does not equate out to anything like long term gain sustainability).
PRO TIP: If you want to keep your cash cow happy - rediscover your decade old fundamentals, build on those and on game mechanics that support those fundamental concepts and for the love of all that is harsh and cruel - STOP kowtowing to these needy little twerps. Hand them a hockey helmet (I would prefer it didn't have a chinstrap) and say "good luck".
TL/DR - seems OK as is to me |
Matsu Fumiko
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
1317
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 07:37:57 -
[19] - Quote
Why not use the Item delivery Hangar? Couriers may dock the Citadel and just drop the Wrap to the delivery Hangar and undock - no other Services may be used nor may other docked characters be seen.
Mailman just drops the parcel. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18200
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 07:54:43 -
[20] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote: Well, "It's always been that way," is an inherently useless argument, so that's not really great, either.
Sure it is, this scam is a decade old and scamming people is just as much a part of EVE as mining and gate camps. |
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Rivr Luzade
Viziam Amarr Empire
2754
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 09:13:38 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote: Well, "It's always been that way," is an inherently useless argument, so that's not really great, either.
Sure it is, this scam is a decade old and scamming people is just as much a part of EVE as mining and gate camps. Scamming should also require effort, and citadel courier contracts do not require any tangible effort. You plant a worthless Astrahus in a random system, setup the couriers and wait a bit. You do not even need to sit ingame all the time because EVEMon and CREST systems notify you once someone took the contract. You then just log in, remove docking rights and that's it. And in order to disguise your actions, you just need to roll corps after every contract. There is no counter to it, no way to smuggle your package in anyways because these are 1 man corps. With the sov null scams, you could at least find someone daft in the same alliance/blue group to transport the package for you, or get your own disposable alt in there, but nothing like this works with citadels. They are effortless, inexpensive and indefinitely repeatable scam machines.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18200
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 09:40:56 -
[22] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Scamming should also require effort, and citadel courier contracts do not require any tangible effort.
Why should scams require effort? They rely entirely on the greed and stupidity of the victim.
Rivr Luzade wrote: You plant a worthless Astrahus in a random system, setup the couriers and wait a bit. You do not even need to sit ingame all the time because EVEMon and CREST systems notify you once someone took the contract. You then just log in, remove docking rights and that's it. And in order to disguise your actions, you just need to roll corps after every contract. There is no counter to it, no way to smuggle your package in anyways because these are 1 man corps.
Thats a lot of work for something that is supposedly no effort.
Rivr Luzade wrote: With the sov null scams, you could at least find someone daft in the same alliance/blue group to transport the package for you, or get your own disposable alt in there, but nothing like this works with citadels. They are effortless, inexpensive and indefinitely repeatable scam machines.
Most of these scams are run by the station owners, so they work in the same way as the last ten years of these scams. The only difference is you can now blow up the offending station. |
Rivr Luzade
Viziam Amarr Empire
2754
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 10:28:35 -
[23] - Quote
Compared to other scams with courier contracts (like intercepting the hauler on the way), this is no effort at all. And the destructibility of the citadels has no bearing at all on the scamming.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
811
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 10:48:15 -
[24] - Quote
Be nice if a director could hand out docking passes with expiration date though. Just for those occasions where your freighter is in an alt corp and you want to make a delivery in the unfashionable end of nullsec.
Kind of like how you could temporarily gain POS protection when your friend told you the password.
Managing opsec is of course the director's responsability. |
Matsu Fumiko
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
1322
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 14:01:47 -
[25] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:
Scamming should also require effort, and citadel courier contracts do not require any tangible effort.
Why should scams require effort? They rely entirely on the greed and stupidity of the victim. Rivr Luzade wrote: You plant a worthless Astrahus in a random system, setup the couriers and wait a bit. You do not even need to sit ingame all the time because EVEMon and CREST systems notify you once someone took the contract. You then just log in, remove docking rights and that's it. And in order to disguise your actions, you just need to roll corps after every contract. There is no counter to it, no way to smuggle your package in anyways because these are 1 man corps.
Thats a lot of work for something that is supposedly no effort. Rivr Luzade wrote: With the sov null scams, you could at least find someone daft in the same alliance/blue group to transport the package for you, or get your own disposable alt in there, but nothing like this works with citadels. They are effortless, inexpensive and indefinitely repeatable scam machines.
Most of these scams are run by the station owners, so they work in the same way as the last ten years of these scams. The only difference is you can now blow up the offending station.
Following this all haulers should be able to drop the wrap at the next NPC Station and leave a notice at the undockable Cita that the recipient was not to be found and where the wrap can be collected
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18204
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 15:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Compared to other scams with courier contracts (like intercepting the hauler on the way), this is no effort at all. And the destructibility of the citadels has no bearing at all on the scamming.
Which scams would those be? Recruitment scams? Double your isk scams? Supercap scams?
An activity, especially one that is over 10 years old should not be banned now simply because it takes advantage of the greedy and stupid. |
Lustriev
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 16:10:45 -
[27] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Be nice if a director could hand out docking passes with expiration date though. Just for those occasions where your freighter is in an alt corp and you want to make a delivery in the unfashionable end of nullsec.
Kind of like how you could temporarily gain POS protection when your friend told you the password.
Managing opsec is of course the director's responsability.
This can be done already. All the director needs to do is to set the neutral person blue for the time it takes him to dock into your station/citadel. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2229
|
Posted - 2016.09.26 18:04:48 -
[28] - Quote
FFS girls, get back up, dust off a bit and get back in the game. It was just isk and you're a lot smarter for it. You got a good deal.
Get over it. |
Rivr Luzade
Viziam Amarr Empire
2755
|
Posted - 2016.09.27 06:11:30 -
[29] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Compared to other scams with courier contracts (like intercepting the hauler on the way), this is no effort at all. And the destructibility of the citadels has no bearing at all on the scamming. Which scams would those be? Recruitment scams? Double your isk scams? Supercap scams? An activity, especially one that is over 10 years old should not be banned now simply because it takes advantage of the greedy and stupid. Who talks about banning? Even with the delivery to a blocked citadel under the condition that you had access when you accepted the contract, you can still do that scam with citadels that had no docking rights to begin with.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Baronin von Blechreder
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2016.09.27 07:38:25 -
[30] - Quote
I just had the problem with a scam contract - after aksing CCP how to avoid this:
(Just for the "greedy courier" faction: standard collateral, few above average reward - scam was not predictable.)
It's the players responsibility to make sure to be able to dock - the route is available before the contract is accepted.
LOL, rarely heard a better joke.
Since I do not manage docking rights, I'm not able to make sure, that I will be able to fulfill the contract when I jump to the citadel.
Building up a citadel is a small investement for this Kind of scam. Just build it up, create 2-4 contracts. If the collateral is well chosen the first one taken will repay the Astrahus.
Wrap Cita, change system, create new corp, repeat. |
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