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CHAOS100
Momentum. Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.19 19:20:00 -
[1]
Well lets start brainstorming. I'm thinking along the lines of lots of NOS and lots of dampening... but maybe that is too unimaginative. What will be the next setup to be highly effective and inflict large amounts of grief upon the victims? --------------
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Kunming
Outcasts
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Posted - 2007.03.19 19:21:00 -
[2]
Passive shield tanks..
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Ghostshadow
Templars of Space CORE.
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Posted - 2007.03.19 19:26:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Ghostshadow on 19/03/2007 19:23:34
Originally by: Kunming Passive shield tanks..
LOL?
Try fitting webber ab/mwd and a warp jammer + passive shield tanks with more than basic resist.
if someone passive shield tanks in PvP... just warp away.
not to mention its next to impossible to passive tank a Battleship. The base recharge time is just too high.
____________________________________________ A * B = C A = Skill Points B = GPA C = a Constant. Guess what happens to B as A increases.
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korrey
Taurus Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.19 19:29:00 -
[4]
My Overdrive Crusader goes faster than with I-stabs... ----------- 24.01.06 Small patch that addresses some minor balancing issues 1) All minmatar pilots have been deleted |
Marcus Alkhaar
Exotic Dancers Club Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2007.03.19 19:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ghostshadow Edited by: Ghostshadow on 19/03/2007 19:23:34
Originally by: Kunming Passive shield tanks..
LOL?
Try fitting webber ab/mwd and a warp jammer + passive shield tanks with more than basic resist.
if someone passive shield tanks in PvP... just warp away.
not to mention its next to impossible to passive tank a Battleship. The base recharge time is just too high.
welcome to 2006... oh wait
------------------ Might Aswell Train Another Race Idiot
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John Quicksilver
Caldari The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2007.03.19 19:39:00 -
[6]
i would suspect that nos is next on the omgnerfthtSOB agenda :D ___________________________
Jack O'Neill - so what now? Bra'tac - Now, we die. Jack O'Neill - Well thats a bad plan.
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Jarjar
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.19 19:58:00 -
[7]
Lets NOT start brainstorming, and maybe there won't be such a setup that gets as popular as the goddamn nano ships.
"In Communist China ISK buys YOU!!" - random bio |
Morreia
The Celestial Element
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Posted - 2007.03.19 20:05:00 -
[8]
There will be, someones bound to need to show off their E-peen and post a video showing them in their uber unbeatable ship then everyone will start flying one.
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SN3263827
The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.03.19 20:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ghostshadow not to mention its next to impossible to passive tank a Battleship. The base recharge time is just too high.
Passive shield tank on a dominix can be insane.
Nowhere near Drake/Nighthawk/Vulture insane, but insane nonetheless.
And yes, passive tanks do need to be looked at. Drakes set up correctly can tank a stupid amount of damage with no recourse for the aggressor. You either have sufficient dps to get over the 33% peak recharge or you haven't. I tested a corpmate's drake's tank with my gank astarte the other day and I couldn't get him below 50% shields. 7 Heavy Neutron IIs and 3 mag stabs with a 45% ship bonus to damage. _____________________________________________
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Drazin DawnTreader
The Elear
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Posted - 2007.03.19 22:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: SN3263827
And yes, passive tanks do need to be looked at. Drakes set up correctly can tank a stupid amount of damage with no recourse for the aggressor. You either have sufficient dps to get over the 33% peak recharge or you haven't. I tested a corpmate's drake's tank with my gank astarte the other day and I couldn't get him below 50% shields. 7 Heavy Neutron IIs and 3 mag stabs with a 45% ship bonus to damage.[/quote
I'm sure he used 6 midslots, 3 rig slots and 3/4 low slots in order to do that. Taking Passive tanks to extremes is very powerful, but also very limiting and expensive. And his DPS is abysmal on top of that. So yeah, There are some ships, Nighthawk/vulture/drake that can tank any battleship that comes their way. But thats all they can do. They certainly cant kill the aggressor by superior damage capability nor by locking them down and wearing them out.
My Gank setup on my Crusader can't beat the tank on my Jaguar setup either. Although in that case the Jaguar can rip my Crusader to pieces with close to equal DPS. Still can't lock the sader down though.
I'm content to wait and see how all the recent changes play out and what they do with NoS. I don't see passive tanks as being high on the list.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.03.19 22:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kunming Passive shield tanks..
Funny, people thought this about the Drake due to Sisi testing. As we can all see the Drake is used by everyone because it.... yeah.
Passive tanks are good for missions, not for PVP when you have to give up 2-3 slots, and go from a decent tank to a loltank.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.03.19 22:19:00 -
[12]
Originally by: SN3263827
Originally by: Ghostshadow not to mention its next to impossible to passive tank a Battleship. The base recharge time is just too high.
Passive shield tank on a dominix can be insane.
Nowhere near Drake/Nighthawk/Vulture insane, but insane nonetheless.
And yes, passive tanks do need to be looked at. Drakes set up correctly can tank a stupid amount of damage with no recourse for the aggressor. You either have sufficient dps to get over the 33% peak recharge or you haven't. I tested a corpmate's drake's tank with my gank astarte the other day and I couldn't get him below 50% shields. 7 Heavy Neutron IIs and 3 mag stabs with a 45% ship bonus to damage.
Why should it be looked at?
I bet he couldn't catch you, web you, scram you, or break your tank. What good is an uber tank if you cannot kill anyone?
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Seraphim Reborn
Caldari The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.03.19 22:22:00 -
[13]
A passive tanked Drake is tough to pop, but hardly anything to fear. Please people, I know every one is clamouring for the next "NERF THIS!", but enough is enough. I feel like I have heard this somewhere before... oh yeah, here it is.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.03.19 22:22:00 -
[14]
next on agenda:
Nos Myrmidon
The check if passive shield tanks are balanced (though they are not overpowered du to slot usage)
Pinky - I'm a nice guy!! and OMG I love Team Tuxford for the speedbalancing... |
SN3263827
The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.03.19 22:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Why should it be looked at?
I bet he couldn't catch you, web you, scram you, or break your tank. What good is an uber tank if you cannot kill anyone?
I was both webbed and scrambled. _____________________________________________
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Neon Genesis
Gallente The Landed Gentry
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Posted - 2007.03.19 22:35:00 -
[16]
It's nos.
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Dragonrazor
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.19 23:01:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dragonrazor on 19/03/2007 23:02:02 Gotta be nos...
As it stands, any solo setup that doesn't incorporate nos is at a disadvantage, and only some ships can really use nos very well.
Domi, Myrm being to two obvious choices.
But turret and missile ships, can't make as good use of nos without sacrificing damage output, while a drone ship doesn't need turrets at all to inflict lots of pain.
While it isn't an "I win" setup, it is overpowered.
It reminds me somewhat of the time when you could fit cruise missiles on frigates and while you could still beat them, they were still the end all be all of frig combat.
The similarity is that while the nos setup isn't unbeatable, the advantage it gives to only a minority of ship's isn't in line with balance... That is to say, it's not that ships like the domi or myrm have an advantage that is the problem... It's that it's a decided advantage... IE instead of tipping the scales so they balance, it bogs em down in favor of the nos ship very often.
Can a nos setup be beaten? Sure... you can fit a novel and otherwise useless module configuration designed exclusively to deal with a nos boat... or bring numbers and use EW etc... Or simply fit more nos... but I'm sorry, every time you tell pilot of a turret ship to just adapt and fit more nos to counter, the baby jesus kills a kitten.
It would be like telling a drone pilot to stop using heavy drones and use lights only...
On the bright side nos realisticaly only needs to be tweaked and tuned to remain a viable module/offense/defense, but not be a requirement for engagement.
Some good ideas for fixes for em:
1: Nerf nos and boost neutralizers to the point where neutralizers are prefered on most ships. As neutralizers cost cap to run, even if it's marginal, there is a point where neutralizers will drain your own cap too... Basicaly, Nos has no real drawback when you compaire it to neutralizers... While some will say not being able to deal any real damage with a full rack of nos is a disadvantage, thats all fine and good on paper, but drone ships don't need turrets to get the job done, or don't need as many.
2: Incorporate tracking or sig radius/resolution into nos and neuts so that small frigates arn't instantly sucked dry on one activation from a BS, or a few from a cruiser. IE nos should still be a viable means of defense against frigates, or cruisers for example, but it should be something the frigate, or cruiser pilot can deal with...
Anyway, IMHO EVE needs to get rid of the binary system it uses for a LOT of it's modules and mechanics. A great deal of eve revolves around removing your enemies ability to do ANYTHING in combat...
Jam him... Web him... Scramble him... Nos him...
While I consider EW and other nifty intellectual offenses to be cool and all, a game should be fun even for the loser... In EVE the loser is most often the one who could only count off the seconds till losing thier ship, helpless to resist.
To a degree thats fine, but eh... meh... You get the drift. ********************************************* "Stars Die... Empires fall... We are dust..." ********************************************* |
Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2007.03.20 02:20:00 -
[18]
I doubt the NOS passive tanked Myrm will catch on. Yeah it is pretty overpowered even if you drop a hardener or extender to fit a point, but it's far from the previous invincibility of a nanodomi or phoon.
I would hazard a guess that we'll see a return to dampening armor tanked ravens - cheap and effective.
Then people will cry about damps, then they'll get nerfed.
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volly
Amarr SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.03.20 09:32:00 -
[19]
Leave my damper-nossing-passive shield tanked-speed curse alone
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pastafarianist
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Posted - 2007.03.20 10:21:00 -
[20]
IMO the tier-2 battlecruisers are way too powerfull for their iskies...
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Xendie
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.20 10:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark
(though they are not overpowered du to slot usage)
Pinky
the old gankageddon didnt have any tank at all, only dmg and it used all lowslots and it got nerfed to hell and back again. that if anything would teach you that amount of slot usage compared to effect per slot usage has absolutely no bearing on CCP's decisions on how to "balance" things.
Originally by: "darth solo" bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.
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Mathias Orsen
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Posted - 2007.03.20 11:56:00 -
[22]
Put those skills to good use and just go with a full gank blasterthron. Stange that they seem to be such rare ships. Often found flying around with some sort of tank, sacrificing much firepower.
7x neutron cannon II's, Void ammo 100mn MWD, scrambler, webber, tracking computer 3x mag stab II's, 2x EANM II's 2x 1600mm Rolled tungsten 5x Ogre II's 3x CCC rigs wouldn't hurt.
This setup will generally wreck a uber tanked myrmidon before it even dips into armor damage.
It's nothing new but take Two good blasterthons with max damage vs 5x BS's with good tanks and I'd bet the blastersthons will beat them every time. Unless those 5 other BS's are all domis fitted with full nosf. Then I'd say only 2 Domi's would go down and two megas would follow. -------------------------------------- ---"What's in your wallet?"--- "There are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration.... I'll take what I can get" |
Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.03.20 11:58:00 -
[23]
Dampers. 'Nuff said. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Might As well Train Another Race |
Drater
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Posted - 2007.03.20 12:04:00 -
[24]
The Veldnaught.
That cargo capacity should be nerfed!
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Darwinia
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.20 12:38:00 -
[25]
Sensor dampeners are not overpowered.. fit 2 boosters and you're ok.
Anything with a straight counter is NOT overpowered.
Nos is due for a nerf.. I would rather see a counter added to a game, but CCP seems to disagree on that part.
One idea I read about some time ago is to make batteries resistant to NOS. So the extra cap you get from fitting a battery can't be drained. ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.03.20 12:55:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 20/03/2007 13:00:08 If Nos was reasonably good instead of overpowered, it wouldn't need a direkt counter. Perhaps even a simple change like - stacking penalty - more powergrid requirement - reduced drained energy amount would do the trick very nicely. That being said make damage it's counter. Having a module<->countermodule scheme all the way is pretty boring imho.
Implementing a direct counter for Nos right now would be fighting symptoms instead of the cause. Mandatory modules ftl.
Dampeners might need a bit balancing. Not a drastic change. I'd start with 30-43% instead of 35-48%. Watch the effect. Tweak a bit more if needed.
Missiles and passive shields regarding PvE should be looked into. All races should be different but equally viable.
___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury _/_/ |
Phaedruss
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Posted - 2007.03.20 12:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Darwinia Sensor dampeners are not overpowered.. fit 2 boosters and you're ok.
Anything with a straight counter is NOT overpowered.
Nos is due for a nerf..
NOS is a pretty good counter for NOS. So are Cap boosters and range. I don't really see a problem with NOS...most people can use them if they care to, and the fact that it's such a popular thing to have loaded just proves it.
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Chewan Mesa
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:00:00 -
[28]
I'm sorry guys, but it has come so far that the same day they fix/balance something, people automatically start posting threads about what there could be next that is overpowered, what should be nerfed now...
It's like some people can't live without whining and screaming for a nerf, for christs sake of you cant even think of sometihng that is overpowered but need to ask for someone to point you in the right direction, then DONT!
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DoctorColossal Pervius
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:08:00 -
[29]
Changes made in the last patch made NOS less effective. I doubt it needs nerfing just tweaking a little.
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:14:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Shan''Talasha Mea''Questa on 20/03/2007 13:12:26 Why keep opening new topics for same discussions over and over again ?
Clicky
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Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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