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Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
320
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Posted - 2011.12.22 12:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi folks. It's been a pretty busy last couple of weeks but I finally managed to put together a worthy summary of CSM 6's December Summit. I tried to do more than just write a small blurb about each session. There's pics and a lot of general information about what went down. The CSM's session with Hilmar was particularly interesting this time around. As for the rest, while I couldn't go into specific details on some things, there are a few nuggets of info in all this that you should find interesting. The official minutes are being worked on and should hopefully be out shortly after the holidays.
CSM 6 December Summit Report
I could have written more but I wanted to get this thing out before Christmas. I hope you enjoy the write up. Feel free to ask questions and I'll keep an eye on this thread and try to reply as time allows. Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
1265
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Posted - 2011.12.22 12:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good writeup, thanks!
Looking forward to the coming devblogs.
/c
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Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
323
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Good writeup, thanks!
Looking forward to the coming devblogs.
/c
How do you always get first post? HOW? Are you a wizard? Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2137
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Very niceGǪ
I suppose this means I should get off my ass and actually make that GÇ£Efficient UIGÇ¥ thread I've been thinking about for the last few months. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
1265
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Seleene wrote:Chribba wrote:Good writeup, thanks!
Looking forward to the coming devblogs.
/c How do you always get first post? HOW? Are you a wizard? Rumor has it that I simply have no life, no job and a scripted refresh button
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1018
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Generally good stuff and much appreciate your efforts.
I still disagree with your notion on "vanity" content for microtransactions though and strongly believe that ship-skins and such things should be a player industry (lp function) rather than delivered through some nonsense like the NeX store.
Seleene(from the blog) wrote:Okay, I'm just going to say again that I'm not opposed to CCP making money for fluff in the game. I actually think that if implemented properly they could do some very cool things with it. Doing it improperly (Incarna) cost CCP more than just some subscriptions - it's made the entire player base even more skeptical of the entire concept. Still, there are a number of cosmetic, non-gameplay affecting things, that could be done through the MT route such as ship paint jobs (flames on my Rifter!) or corp uniforms for Incarna.
I think it IS time for CCP to remove the Aurum from the game and at the same time tidy up damaged relations with the player base by moving ALL NeX assets published and unpublished into the player domain either by direct inclusion within the character designer or placing into the faction loyalty point stores (depending on how much butthurt one wishes to avoid from people who paid $ for aurum).
Is important to avoid mixed messages though, and I do think there is a danger that potentially green-lighting "vanity" transactions in the way your blog post comes across will lead to future insanities on this score.
For the record I too don't have a problem with CCP making extra income from the player base in some ways but since they already have PLEX for ISK transfers, and extra account subs for eve addicts - I frankly see no honest role for "vanity" microtransactions. Introduce content that costs a lot of isk that lazy players will trade PLEX ISK for by all means. Don't remove industrial/exploration/gameplay content from the game by crowbarring it onto the server through a cash shop.
CSM on the whole should be careful to reflect player opinion accurately on these issues specifically because at the moment i'm not sure you are.
***
PS. Your main link in the body text isn't working. Need to fix it.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Jack Jombardo
The Last Samurais Cosmic Allianz
6
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote: CCP Tallest (the man is just a shade under seven feet) is Team BFF's primary ship balancer dude and we got to speak with him about... hell, pretty much everything. He asked what all was still ****** in the game and took a lot of notes. This is similar to what happened at the first summit back in May, only this time Tallest has an expansion under his belt and a better feel for how to prioritize things and get stuff done. This talk wasn't just limited to us throwing out ship names, but actually discussing each ship class and some of the specific ships themselves.
Can we get some more details please? Like what you mentioned, biggest isues, what CCP Tallest answared? |
Logan LaMort
Black Rebel Rifter Club
1157
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thanks, that was an interesting read and a good write up.
Question about the art stuff, are we possibly looking at new turrets/V3 textures/warp effect/nebuale kind of awesome or something much more? |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
323
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Generally good stuff and much appreciate your efforts.
I still disagree with your notion on "vanity" content for microtransactions though and strongly believe that ship-skins and such things should be a player industry (lp function) rather than delivered through some nonsense like the NeX store.
If they could come up with something like that which worked well, I would wholeheartedly endorse it. I'm not beholden to a particular way of doing this at all.
Quote:I think it IS time for CCP to remove the Aurum from the game and at the same time tidy up damaged relations with the player base by moving ALL NeX assets published and unpublished into the player domain either by direct inclusion within the character designer or placing into the faction loyalty point stores (depending on how much butthurt one wishes to avoid from people who paid $ for aurum).
Quite a few of the CSM were making the point that Aurum is a damaged name brand and it just needs to be killed with fire.
Quote:Is important to avoid mixed messages though, and I do think there is a danger that potentially green-lighting "vanity" transactions in the way your blog post comes across will lead to future insanities on this score.
Don't worry too much on that account. Their first attempt was a massive failure that they seemed to have learned from. It was pretty apparent that work on that kind of thing has been shelved for the immediate future while they sort out the smartest, not the quickest, way to do it. Looking at the industry and the money that's in this sort of thing like League of Legends and such, I believe it's inevitable that an MMO like EVE wouldn't attempt to cash in somehow. Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
Disdaine
53
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
This is what I like to see from the CSM.
Bring on the dev blogs. |
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Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
323
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jack Jombardo wrote:Quote: CCP Tallest (the man is just a shade under seven feet) is Team BFF's primary ship balancer dude and we got to speak with him about... hell, pretty much everything. He asked what all was still ****** in the game and took a lot of notes. This is similar to what happened at the first summit back in May, only this time Tallest has an expansion under his belt and a better feel for how to prioritize things and get stuff done. This talk wasn't just limited to us throwing out ship names, but actually discussing each ship class and some of the specific ships themselves.
Can we get some more details please? Like what you mentioned, biggest isues, what CCP Tallest answared?
I've said pretty much all I can at this point. We walked through each ship class and said things about each one; what was good or bad, what needed to be looked at, etc... The important thing is that balancing ships is CCP Tallest's main job. We won't be waiting to see results from these discussions 6 months from now. We should be seeing continuous and evolving balancing on several things much more often.
Logan LaMort wrote:Thanks, that was an interesting read and a good write up.
Question about the art stuff, are we possibly looking at new turrets/V3 textures/warp effect/nebuale kind of awesome or something much more?
Yes to all, really. Yes to questions you haven't asked as well. We made sure that Art understood when they start showing some of this stuff to have videos, not just words and pictures. Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
30
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Don't know if it's the forums but that link leads to the usual warning about leaving but with no url visible then to a blank page.
Using Firefox.
Perhaps the Bold has broke something.
/edit works fine now *shrugs*
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
323
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:Don't know if it's the forums but that link leads to the usual warning about leaving but with no url visible then to a blank page.
Using Firefox.
Perhaps the Bold has broke something.
Yep, that's what it was. The bold. Been fixed now. Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
Ruiner Drudge
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
I went from having 7 accounts to having 1 because of the absolute disgrace that AUR/NeX created. This account still has it's "free" 1000AUR (I was honestly insulted by this). I will not be spending it, it needs to be removed from my wallet. I'm not a cash cow or a golden goose.
With that said, thank you for the link, it's always nice to get an inside perspective. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1018
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
(on removing NeX clothing to the character designer / LP stores etc)
Seleene wrote:If they could come up with something like that which worked well, I would wholeheartedly endorse it. I'm not beholden to a particular way of doing this at all.
Well, how about we press for a discussion on the issue "how to unravel NeX/Aurum from Eve" and ask developers to become involved. I imagine you'd agree that the easiest way would be to simply move all the assets the character designer and scrub the NeX link and call it done - could we do that? How much effort would be involved in sorting these things to the faction LP stores? Without a dialogue with the appropriate developers / decision makers - its still all up in the air.
Seleene wrote:Quite a few of the CSM were making the point that Aurum is a damaged name brand and it just needs to be killed with fire.
Yep, "poisoned brand" is much what it is. Some failures are so bad you do need to ditch the concept and genuinely start again.
Seleene wrote:Don't worry too much on that account. Their first attempt was a massive failure that they seemed to have learned from. It was pretty apparent that work on that kind of thing has been shelved for the immediate future while they sort out the smartest, not the quickest, way to do it. Looking at the industry and the money that's in this sort of thing like League of Legends and such, I believe it's inevitable that an MMO like EVE wouldn't attempt to cash in somehow.
What I worry about is that you personally (and I assume that represents a general feeling from the CSM) seem not to see a problem with "fluff content" (like ship skins and clothing) not being included by default in the game client and becoming an optional "vanity" category of future microtransaction. I think this is a terrible mistake and its opening the door to the notion of the "hybrid model" (subs+MT) and it cannot help but subdivide the Eve population between MT haves and have nots that will introduce additional pressure to (RL)"keep up with the joneses" quite at odds to the role of an MMO's tranditional relaxation and entertainment role.
But bluntly, I believe people play MMO's to escape the bullshit economic pressures of their day job. They login to a fictional universe and virtual gameworld and play with their spaceships bought with space currency and gain a release from the 50 hours a week dayjob, mortgage and car replayments. By engineering an intrusion of RL $ shadowing over the playfield of Eve Online you actually mess with the game's ability to suspend disbelief and help people relax. By remainding Eve players who are "failures in real life" (who can't afford $ 1000 dollar jeans) that they are also "failures in New Eden" because they can't afford $1000 dollar ship skins there either - you run the risk of making Eve "too real" and making it a turn off to people who actually want some fantasy and distance from the economic apocalypse we are living through in the last embers of 2011.
There are games out there that are specifically for rich socially innept twats in real life to prance around in cyber dresses that cost more than most people pay in subs for a year. (Perfect World International to name but one).
I don't think Eve should even flirt with that route.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1484
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Excellent write-up, Selene, and extremely encouraging reading. Here's hoping that CCP and the EVE community can rebuild the energy that was driving the game after Apocrypha. My outlook for the next expansion has changed from "Well maybe they won't break all that many things I care about too badly" to "Man, I can't wait for the summer expansion!"
My thanks to you and all the CSM team for all that you've accomplished.
And yeah, there's definitely still more to be done with supercaps, after a good start. Not just completing the job of focusing them on capital-killing, but also to give them a genuine battlefield/strategic role other than "huge great shooty thing".
Looking forward to 2012
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
43
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Posted - 2011.12.22 14:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
i endorse this product and/or service !
nice blog ! |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
382
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Posted - 2011.12.22 14:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Great stuff Seleene, thanks for taking the time to write it all up.
Now I'm salivating over those CSM minutes and what extra hints they'll bring.
2012 looks to be a good year for Eve. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
7
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Posted - 2011.12.22 14:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Read the whole thing, pretty interesting stuff.
Up side: it's good to see CCP going back to excellence, FiS and nullsec stuff. Warms my heart to remind me why i love this game.
Down side: you all forgot about the WiS crowd (alone in a CQ? That's all?), hiseccers (you know, that people who stubbornly refuse to play your game your way) and don't even are aware that soloers do exist in your pretty MMO.
Crucible did nothing for any of the above and all we get is "moar Crucible" + "WiS/NEx wall of silence".
Not very engaging. |
Rixiu
North Star Networks The Kadeshi
38
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Posted - 2011.12.22 14:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:*snip* I have to second this for a number of reasons
First: CCP is looking at microtransactions from the wrong perspective. In most other games people only pay for one account and then adding microtransactions makes sense as it's a simple way to allow people to pay more for a game they love. In EVE things are different, this "optional payment" already exist since many pay for a second, third or even more accounts and it would not be out of the way to look at these "extra" accounts as some kind of large monthly microtransaction.
Second: Pretty much every item that can theoretically be sold in a microtransaction store is better of as implemented as more regular content. Lets take paintjobs for an example, give ships a paint-slot (preferably a cooler name) and then add paint-modules (or better yet, blueprints for more industry gameplay) to the LP stores of the different factions/corps and pirate faction loot drops and whatnot. More content = Higher chance of someone finding he/she likes to do = more players
Third: Microtransactions are a slippery slope as we have already seen from CCPs side (convenience, finished ship for aurum...)
I can understand why CCP want microtransactions since it's the FOTM payment model at the moment in the industry. But a lot of players despise microtransactions like the devil (including myself) and CCP could very well try to think of EVE more as pay-ticket-recieve-all-the-bacon-instead-of-just-a-little-for-free-and-the-rest-will-cost-you-lots-of-money.
Interesting blog though, looking forward to the minutes and if the new trinity-trailer-moment is half as good the original I'm going to **** myself, that trailer is what made me start playing eve. |
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J Kunjeh
99
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Posted - 2011.12.22 14:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
A most excellent write-up Seleene, thank you so much for taking the time to do that for the players. Can't wait to read the official minutes. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
EcthelionStrongbow
Mando'a Navy Controlled Chaos
2
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Posted - 2011.12.22 15:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Read the whole thing, pretty interesting stuff.
Up side: it's good to see CCP going back to excellence, FiS and nullsec stuff. Warms my heart to remind me why i love this game.
Down side: you all forgot about the WiS crowd (alone in a CQ? That's all?), hiseccers (you know, that people who stubbornly refuse to play your game your way) and don't even are aware that soloers do exist in your pretty MMO.
Crucible did nothing for any of the above and all we get is "moar Crucible" + "WiS/NEx wall of silence".
Not very engaging.
I can definitely see your point but I think CCP is tackling the easier problems of fixing null sec sov, pos misery, etc. I think that high sec has a bigger problem of what to do with high sec. In null sec, they have basically given the players a lot of tools that work somewhat well for generating content (structure bashing as content sucks but it's still content). In high sec there is such a limited amount of content that can be created by the players because of the rules of high sec.
I think my main question is, "What tools can CCP give high sec folks that will make it possible to have player generated content that doesn't suck and doesn't screw over the other areas of the game?"
Overall great write up Seleene. Hopefully post holidays there will be enough info out there to let players be CCP's best salespeople. |
Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
113
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Posted - 2011.12.22 15:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
That was a nice read.
Any idea when the official minutes will be out? Anastasia -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á Dominique-á-á Mashie -á-á Monica |
Written Word
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
166
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Posted - 2011.12.22 15:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bleh, the thought of "convenience MTs" needs to be taken out back and shot. Looking forward to the next "Sure we'll spawn scorpions and nahh the CSM is totally chill for us doing it" moment from CCP.
Cool features will be laiden with "Insert Aurum to move stuff, Insert Aurum for standings, Insert Aurum for X" |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
326
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Posted - 2011.12.22 15:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Down side: you all forgot about the WiS crowd (alone in a CQ? That's all?),
"You all" doesn't really mean CSM in this case. The Incarna roll-out was a disaster for several reasons, not the least of which was a single (ugly) CQ and graphics cards melting. When CCP can come up with a way to actually get several dozen (at least) avatars in a shared space together, they will probably re-visit the concept of Promenades or Establishments. Personally, I just want there to be some kind of game play element attached to WiS so it's not just a fashion show. When CCP has a plan for all that, and everything I've seen thus far indicates that they do not, then I'm sure we'll hear about it and maybe see more WiS content.
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:hiseccers (you know, that people who stubbornly refuse to play your game your way) and don't even are aware that soloers do exist in your pretty MMO.
We're all playing the same game. I honestly don't get this attitude at all unless you are just looking to pointless rage at alliance tags without any regard for the histories of the people on the CSM.
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Crucible did nothing for any of the above and all we get is "moar Crucible" + "WiS/NEx wall of silence". .
Dude, stop trolling. :) There were pages and pages of fixes and changes in Crucible that applied to general game play and had nothing at all to do with whatever your game play style was. Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
326
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Posted - 2011.12.22 15:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
EcthelionStrongbow wrote:I think my main question is, "What tools can CCP give high sec folks that will make it possible to have player generated content that doesn't suck and doesn't screw over the other areas of the game?"
It's certainly something that's being looked at, especially as it relates to things like the NPE and retention. Some folks just wanna mine away solo or play the market and never undock, etc... What kind of activities are eventually made available will still fall within the same old 'risk vs. reward' argument, but I do know this topic is not being ignored. As I said near the end of the blog, there are so many more people working directly on EVE that this is the kind of stuff that can finally be addressed properly.
For now, obviously, CCP is going to focus on the 'low hanging fruit' that it can fix immediately while developing sound mechanics that won't upset the balance of the whole game. It's a totally smart way to do stuff. Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
328
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Posted - 2011.12.22 15:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:That was a nice read.
Any idea when the official minutes will be out?
Best guess is mid-January. Lots of motivation to get the info out ASAP.
Written Word wrote:Bleh, the thought of "convenience MTs" needs to be taken out back and shot. Looking forward to the next "Sure we'll spawn scorpions and nahh the CSM is totally chill for us doing it" moment from CCP.
Cool features will be laiden with "Insert Aurum to move stuff, Insert Aurum for standings, Insert Aurum for X"
Nah, I'm pretty sure we made it clear what we think of Aurum and any future plans for it. It's impossible to say with any certainty what CCP will do about it but whatever it is, I don't think it will be more knee jerk stuff like we've seen in the past.
Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
EcthelionStrongbow
Mando'a Navy Controlled Chaos
2
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Posted - 2011.12.22 15:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Seleene wrote:EcthelionStrongbow wrote:I think my main question is, "What tools can CCP give high sec folks that will make it possible to have player generated content that doesn't suck and doesn't screw over the other areas of the game?" It's certainly something that's being looked at, especially as it relates to things like the NPE and retention. Some folks just wanna mine away solo or play the market and never undock, etc... What kind of activities are eventually made available will still fall within the same old 'risk vs. reward' argument, but I do know this topic is not being ignored. As I said near the end of the blog, there are so many more people working directly on EVE that this is the kind of stuff that can finally be addressed properly. For now, obviously, CCP is going to focus on the 'low hanging fruit' that it can fix immediately while developing sound mechanics that won't upset the balance of the whole game. It's a totally smart way to do stuff.
Glad to hear that it is being worked on.
I was just pointing out that in my opinion the future of high sec is a much more difficult question than what to do with low , WH, or null sec since there are so many more rules that effect gameplay. I think it would be interesting to be on the team brainstorming answers to that question but it would probably be quite frusterating as well. |
Roime
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
65
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Posted - 2011.12.22 16:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Seleene wrote:This is similar to what happened at the first summit back in May, only this time Tallest has a successful expansion under his belt and a better feel for how to prioritize things and get stuff done.
FYP
Thanks for the excellent write-up! Things seem to be pointing skywards for EVE.
I'm especially happy for the Art team, they seem to be very talented and I'm glad they work on stuff they love <3
I also feel that not enough credit has been given to Hilmar, I mean it's ultra rare that a visionary leader actually has the balls to turn around and readjust things, and learn from mistakes.
Idk, a bit of a mindless post, I just realized how important this "game" has become for me. Fantastic work, all I can say.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
206
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Posted - 2011.12.22 16:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
Wow. Lotta "this was cool but NDA" in that article.
You have made some VERY bold claims.
I hope we see something that makes my jaw drop at some point.
All GëíGêçGëí Ships | GëíGêçGëí - sñÜpüÅpü«sÑçsªÖpü¬péópéñpâåpâá | <-- Links to ShowInfo in-game
FX7 - No Tax... No Rules... No Problem |
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