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Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
142
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Posted - 2016.10.09 20:30:50 -
[31] - Quote
TomyLobo wrote:If carriers can use it, I don't see why not. Will make suicide ganking a lot harder than it is right now and will reward pilots pilots that are active. With alpha accounts coming in the next patch, things are even bound to get worse.
Boosting the economy has been the best argument for ganking and surely there's nothing wrong with the aggressor having to use more ships to achieve decent results given how lucrative suicide ganking is and how easy it's going to be to acquire gank characters come alpha accounts.
Carriers also can't enter hisec, so we should ban freighters from there too. I don't see why not. Alpha accounts are going to make terrible gankers. I think they can only squeeze out 300DPS or something from a catalyst. Should suicide ganking be made harder though, especially this hard? With this change you basically need 3 gank fleets per freighter, one to get him to pop the hull energizer and another two to kill the freighter with CONCORD on grid. Even a conservative estimate probably puts it at twice the current fleet size.
Ganking is only lucrative because people are stupid or overconfident. What needs change is the attitude that you should be safe in hisec, not game mechanics.
I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
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Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
170
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Posted - 2016.10.10 14:58:32 -
[32] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Danika Princip wrote:If you already don't bother to take a single precaution to protect your freighter, would you even bother fitting this?
oh, yeah. Before I forget; all together now!
Just one more nerf and it'll be balanced! I believe freighters should be not nerfed, but counterwise. For example, a nyx pilot can alpha a jump freighter, and I believe it ... well, shouldn't happen. I understand when a titan can one shot a capital (I've lost a carrier to that once), but a titan costs significantly more than a supercarrier. Freighters and jump freighters should need their EHP buffed significantly to survive at least alpha from a supercarrier, I think. Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Diana Kim wrote:The module gives temporary invulnerability, making it possible for the reinforcements to arrive. As I have written above, if the freighter is tackled and no reinforcement comes to save it - it dies. How will it die? If the freighter pilot activates the CEHE (crap acronym by the way), all the attackers die to CONCORD and no further assistance is required. JFs in low and null might fall into your scenario, but this is just an 'I win with complete safety' button for highsec. It will die if attackers can actually attack the freighter without breaking rules. If you can't tank sentries - you probably can't kill freighter anyway. And if you are attacked by CONCORD - this is not a real combat situation and I'd prefer to keep these scenarios out of the current discussion (while killing a ship this way is possible - it is a borderline cheating).
--> fit your jf properly or use alternative ways to protect your jf. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2409
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Posted - 2016.10.10 15:27:40 -
[33] - Quote
TomyLobo wrote:If carriers can use it, I don't see why not.
Well, see, carriers are actual warships and, consequently, can use equipment designed for warships, whereas freighters are oversized steamer trunks strapped to some engines.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Bobb Bobbington
Bros Before Holes The Devils' Rejects
345
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Posted - 2016.10.10 20:13:26 -
[34] - Quote
Guys, just stop
A freighter is not a capital ship It is not a subcap ship
It is a FREIGHTER it has it's own damn rules and it's own damn playstyle
Shoehorning it into one group or the other for the sake of your argument does nobody any good
Now onto more a more opinionated piece- I think ganking is already hard enough. People have to have whole fleets to kill freighters already, and targets are chosen for one of two reasons. One, the gankee is stupid, hauling way too much, and not using proper scouts/webs. Or, the gankers are shooting people for lols, because ganking is hard enough that truly making it profitable is difficult. In either case, making it harder and more punishing to gank will not help the situation nor the conflict drivers in Eve.
This is a signature.
It has a 25m signature.
No it's not a cosmic signature.
Probably.
Btw my corp's recruiting.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2877
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Posted - 2016.10.10 22:42:05 -
[35] - Quote
Bobb Bobbington wrote:Guys, just stop
A freighter is not a capital ship It is not a subcap ship
It is a FREIGHTER it has it's own damn rules and it's own damn playstyle
Shoehorning it into one group or the other for the sake of your argument does nobody any good
Well, then lets talk about this group of ships: Freighter, Jump Freighter and Bowhead. They are 'capital' equivalents of industrial ship. Yes, I will still use this word just to emphasize their difference from industrials.
You probably could easily gank unfitted industrial with just a svipul. But if you properly fit and tank industrial - even tornado won't one shot it. With freighters we now have a situation when just one nyx can one shot them. And they have incredibly limited ability for fitting: just three low slots basically without any CPU and PG. Maximum you can do is just fit 3 bulkheads. You can boost EHP of industrial ship about 10 times of its original with fitting, while for freighter class vessel it is less that 2 times.
What I would like to see - is turning ganking of freighters into fighting for freighters. Give them some sort of triage equivalent, so they can survive fast attack, but that they can't jump or dock and have to actually sit there and defend themselves, while others are fighting.
Then the gameplay for freighter would be not just evading, but actually defending assets.
This will give more fights, more wrecks and of course more content!
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4851
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Posted - 2016.10.10 22:59:50 -
[36] - Quote
...Why do you think a ship that is essentially a giant cardboard box should be able to tank harder than actual combat ships?
An unfit obelisk has 300k ehp. Do you really think ten times that is a good idea? Because that's tanking harder than a dread or a carrier.
An unfit anshar has 500k ehp. (And if you die in one of these, there is a 99% chance it is entirely your own fault). Ten times that and you're -probably- tanking harder than the nyx attacking you.
Either way, you're flat out deleting highsec ganking. |
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
142
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Posted - 2016.10.10 23:15:16 -
[37] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Bobb Bobbington wrote:Guys, just stop
A freighter is not a capital ship It is not a subcap ship
It is a FREIGHTER it has it's own damn rules and it's own damn playstyle
Shoehorning it into one group or the other for the sake of your argument does nobody any good
Well, then lets talk about this group of ships: Freighter, Jump Freighter and Bowhead. They are 'capital' equivalents of industrial ship. Yes, I will still use this word just to emphasize their difference from industrials. You probably could easily gank unfitted industrial with just a svipul. But if you properly fit and tank industrial - even tornado won't one shot it. With freighters we now have a situation when just one nyx can one shot them. And they have incredibly limited ability for fitting: just three low slots basically without any CPU and PG. Maximum you can do is just fit 3 bulkheads. You can boost EHP of industrial ship about 10 times of its original with fitting, while for freighter class vessel it is less that 2 times. What I would like to see - is turning ganking of freighters into fighting for freighters. Give them some sort of triage equivalent, so they can survive fast attack, but that they can't jump or dock and have to actually sit there and defend themselves, while others are fighting. Then the gameplay for freighter would be not just evading, but actually defending assets. This will give more fights, more wrecks and of course more content! First of all, you are aware that giving freighters some sort of invuln/capital-level active tank DRASTICALLY increases their survivability and hurts ganking a lot. I still haven't seen any suggestions from you to balance that. Second of all, why should I try to fight people instead of evading them? There's really no reason to bring 10 friends in combat ships when I can scout myself with a travelceptor. It's much easier for me, why do I need to yolo my freighter through gates or something to please you? Third of all, why does it even matter if you give the freighter a super tank? If I'm a pirate I'm going to kill the escort over the thing that can't shoot back, then finish it off. A CEHE only delays the inevitable unless you win, in which case it probably doesn't matter.
I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18282
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Posted - 2016.10.11 08:04:34 -
[38] - Quote
Dark Lord Trump wrote: Third of all, why does it even matter if you give the freighter a super tank? If I'm a pirate I'm going to kill the escort over the thing that can't shoot back, then finish it off. A CEHE only delays the inevitable unless you win, in which case it probably doesn't matter.
Because that makes ganking them impossible. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
1052
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Posted - 2016.10.11 11:58:16 -
[39] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters (edit: and Bowheads) could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships. And thus should have capital level of defenses.
Or maybe even better - add this ability to freighters and jump freighters as hull property. Such module will give it time for the escort defenses to arrive (if there were any) and turn simple ganking into proper fight for the freighter. Of course if the freighter is tackled and there is no support arriving it will go down in flames anyway, and it will only delay it's fate, which doesn't affect the status quo in the space where fight is allowed. So basically remove highsec suicide ganking.
Because bumping is getting nerfed apparently so if gank fails (which it will with energizer) then the freighter warps off soon after.
Dumbass carebears want no risk in this game. Escort your freighters and stop crying.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1305
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Posted - 2016.10.11 12:35:22 -
[40] - Quote
Ahem
Dear OP,
No. That is all.
Thank you, Freighter pilots who are tired of having their ships nerfed into the group because people cannot figure out how to protect them adequately. (Good pilots for short).
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
25
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Posted - 2016.10.11 14:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
This topic is pointless.. CCP caters to hi sec gankers and promotes player grieving.. They wonder why the number of subscribers in Eve has been shrinking over the years.. Now they're coming out with alpha clones to try and attract more players. . But in all actuality they are once again catering to hi sec ganking and player grieving. ( its going to get worse) CCP just can not seem to grasp the fact there are players who dont like to PvP.. Players dont want to be forced into it.. and shouldn't be forced into it.. Every other successful MMO realizes this and are actually growing.. Eves population is stagnate and slowly shrinking CCP fails to realize people are douche-bags and will exploit and abuse the system and abuse newer / weaker players every chance they get.. Hi sec should be just that hi sec.. it should be a safe area for those who do not want to pvp.. you still get better stuff in low sec & null giving incentive for players to venture into more dangerous areas.. Most of the map is low / null sec.. in fact they could create more low / null systems.. We have a war dec system in place to allow people to fight in hi sec if they choose... One day i hope CCP pulls their heads out of the sand and realizes this..
I'm not a carebear.. I love pvp but i know that by forcing people into it and promoting player ganking and grieving is no good for the game as a whole..
((( Alliance Creation )))
Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++
Contact me In-Game.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3560
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Posted - 2016.10.11 14:43:24 -
[42] - Quote
Renfus wrote:This topic is pointless.. CCP caters to hi sec gankers and promotes player grieving.. They wonder why the number of subscribers in Eve has been shrinking over the years.. Now they're coming out with alpha clones to try and attract more players. . But in all actuality they are once again catering to hi sec ganking and player grieving. ( its going to get worse) CCP just can not seem to grasp the fact there are players who dont like to PvP.. Players dont want to be forced into it.. and shouldn't be forced into it.. Every other successful MMO realizes this and are actually growing.. Eves population is stagnate and slowly shrinking CCP fails to realize people are douche-bags and will exploit and abuse the system and abuse newer / weaker players every chance they get.. Hi sec should be just that hi sec.. it should be a safe area for those who do not want to pvp.. you still get better stuff in low sec & null giving incentive for players to venture into more dangerous areas.. Most of the map is low / null sec.. in fact they could create more low / null systems.. We have a war dec system in place to allow people to fight in hi sec if they choose... One day i hope CCP pulls their heads out of the sand and realizes this..
I'm not a carebear.. I love pvp but i know that by forcing people into it and promoting player ganking and grieving is no good for the game as a whole..
Except forcing people into pvp is what the game is about and always has been.
Your post falls apart when you learn that ganking is the most nerfed activity in the game and before it was nerfed the subscriber base was much higher and growing every year. The opposite of what you think is true is happening. The more ganking gets nerfed, the smaller the playerbase gets.
Btw, you can stil pvp and be a care bear. Its a mind set and it looks like you have it.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
25
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Posted - 2016.10.11 18:06:24 -
[43] - Quote
I disagree.. This game is not about forcing people into PvP. It is very pro PvP oriented. That's why there is low and null sec space. For those who want unrestricted PvP.. The war Dec system is for those who want to PvP in hi sec unrestricted.. Hi sec I believe was originally intended to be a safe starting area for new players and those not wishing to PvP. That's the purpose of concord., to enforce that point and supposedly protect from ganking.. But.. like everything if there's a weak link or an exploit people will find it and use it to their full advantage. You're not going to convince me that allowing players to scam, abuse and grieve other players, especially new players makes them want to keep playing the game.. If that were true the population in eve would rival WoW.. But instead the number of subscribers is stagnant and dwindling.. And just how many of them are alts?? How many more alts will there be when alpha clones go live?? And we're guaranteed to see more and more ganking.. The sad fact is people are abusive by nature.. as cool as it is sometimes to have the freedom to do what you want in game like hi sec ganking.. it's also destructive..
((( Alliance Creation )))
Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++
Contact me In-Game.
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Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
25
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Posted - 2016.10.11 18:34:47 -
[44] - Quote
I've talked to a lot of people in other games I play that have played eve and quit. Basically they all say the same thing.. It's boring.. I asked why was it boring? What did you do in game? They said run a few missions, mined.. Got killed over and over.. I'm guessing getting ganked or wandering into low sec.. maybe by npcs too lol They basically stayed in hi sec.. They didn't want to PvP.. yet.. But the pve side of the game is lacking.. And the ones that try and stick it out get **** on by all the assholes in hi sec.
I had a friend that started playing a while back.. He wanted to mine mainly in hi sec.. and do missions. And I helped him out every now and then. He was happy as hell when finally got into a hulk.. he had it for like 2 days then got ganked while mining in hi sec a .6 system. Then he quit... You pay to play a game to enjoy yourself.. not get **** on.. There has to be checks and balances in games like eve to accommodate both groups.. Those who like to PvP and those who do not. Because without it.. you're limiting and hurting your player base and the game won't grow.
((( Alliance Creation )))
Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++
Contact me In-Game.
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4854
|
Posted - 2016.10.11 18:43:39 -
[45] - Quote
Oh look. A think of the newbies argument.
Newbies don't HAVE anything to gank or steal.
Hell. You're in PH. What do you do with your newbies? Same as us, stuff them in free frigates and throw them at your enemies en masse. THAT is how you get newbies to stick around, Engage with them, teach them how to play, and yes, kill them repeatedly. Don't wrap them in cotton wool and pretend that helps anyone.
If you want a themepark MMO, go find one. Don't take the sand out of the box because a bigger kid kicked it in your face. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10724
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Posted - 2016.10.11 19:15:36 -
[46] - Quote
Quote:This game is not about forcing people into PvP. Actually... it is. Beyond PvP in fact.
The basis of EVE's design is to bring different playstyles into conflict with one another while making them also relying on each other for support and growth.
Industry affects PVP... PvP affects industry... missions and anomalies affect both... etc. They all interact with each other for better or worse and thus players are allowed to affect everyone equally for better or worse regardless of their chosen style of play.
Those that choose to avoid conflict are also making a choice that affects others... and, like everything else in the game, their efforts will not produce a guaranteed result.
Quote:Hi sec I believe was originally intended to be a safe starting area for new players and those not wishing to PvP. You are correct in that high-sec was intended to be a "starting area" and a place where those who have lost everything can recoup and recover... but [uit was never designed to be "safe"[/u] in a contemporary sense.
High-sec was/is designed to be safer than Low-sec... which is safer then Null-sec.
Fun History Facts: - CONCORD never used to exist. In fact, it was added years after the game launched. - Suicide ganking used to be easier and cheaper by orders of magnitude. - There is less suicide ganking now on a per-player basis than there was during the heydays of ganking some 3 to 5 years ago. - Wars were orders of magnitude cheaper and easier to wage. You even had the occasional rookie lol-corps run by actual newbies waging war! Now it is simply too expensive and tedious for all but the most dedicated players.
Quote:That's the purpose of concord., to enforce that point and supposedly protect from ganking. Nope. They are there to punish and exact a cost for aggression in high-sec.
CONCORD was never designed to protect anyone.
Quote:You're not going to convince me that allowing players to scam, abuse and grieve other players, especially new players makes them want to keep playing the game.. Hi. My name is ShahFluffers and those are exactly the reasons I, and many in my corp, joined and have stayed with this game.
But instead the number of subscribers is stagnant and dwindling..
Because certain people come into this game, dislike it for what it is, and rather than go to another game that appeals to them more, they try making change to the game that they prefer/like...
... which drives off the players who do like the game for what it is and dislike those new changes...
... and ironically does not work because the changes being made don't change the core basis of the game (see: "Everyone versus Everyone)... which leads to all those players who asked for the changes to leave anyways.
EVE was never designed for a mass audience and its whimsical desires. It was made as a niche game designed to appear to certain players who like certain things in a game.
You pay to play a game to enjoy yourself.. not get **** on
That is called "losing." A concept that seems to have been scrubbed over in other games.
You are playing a multiplayer game. People will interact with you whether you like it or not for any reason they choose. You are no more special than they are and deserve no more special considerstion than they do. Act accordingly within the game.
How did you Veterans start?
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Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
25
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Posted - 2016.10.11 19:20:23 -
[47] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Oh look. A think of the newbies argument.
Newbies don't HAVE anything to gank or steal.
Hell. You're in PH. What do you do with your newbies? Same as us, stuff them in free frigates and throw them at your enemies en masse. THAT is how you get newbies to stick around, Engage with them, teach them how to play, and yes, kill them repeatedly. Don't wrap them in cotton wool and pretend that helps anyone.
If you want a themepark MMO, go find one. Don't take the sand out of the box because a bigger kid kicked it in your face.
Yeah that's exactly what we do with our new bros! The difference is they WANT to be there.. They WANT to PvP.. But there are some that don't.. They are the ones that live in hi sec.. They are the ones we need to support not frag... Eventually some of them join is in null.. But how many potential new bros are we losing??? I'd say a lot... And from a player viewpoint that sucks.. more players= more content And from a business viewpoint ie CCPs objective to attract and retain new subscribers.. it sucks.. They're losing money... How long before it hits the point of no return?
Anyone here ever play Starwars Galaxies?? Or any other mmo that got shut down because they lost their the player base ..? It sucks to have years invested into a game and have it end because the devs made all the wrong decisions.. I see eve slowly heading that direction.. Since I started playing in 2005 we have lost a lot of the player base in eve.. We're holding on strong ( for now ) but it's not growing..
((( Alliance Creation )))
Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++
Contact me In-Game.
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4855
|
Posted - 2016.10.11 19:25:49 -
[48] - Quote
If you don't want to PVP, then a game where literally everything you do is PVP is probably not the place for you.
What makes you think the people that quit because they were ganked would stick around anyway? If one loss drives you out of the game, then how will you cope with losing a pos, or screwing up a market order, or jumping into lowsec or...?
And you know what kills sandbox games?
Taking away the sandbox. |
Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
25
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Posted - 2016.10.11 20:08:13 -
[49] - Quote
Well.. that's just my opinion on the matter.. It is what it is..
I just think we're shooting ourselves in the foot..
((( Alliance Creation )))
Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++
Contact me In-Game.
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
841
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Posted - 2016.10.11 20:28:22 -
[50] - Quote
Hm. Started out as a freighter thread, now suddenly involves newbies? Number of newbies piloting freighters ... zero times zero ... carry the zero ... nope: still zero |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3562
|
Posted - 2016.10.11 22:05:03 -
[51] - Quote
"The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
If eve was doing better when ganking was easier, how are we now shooting ourselves in the foot? Unless by constantly nerfing ganking (and wardecs) we are shooting ourselves in the foot? Which in that case, you may be right.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
1052
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Posted - 2016.10.12 00:45:24 -
[52] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Oh look. A think of the newbies argument.
Newbies don't HAVE anything to gank or steal.
Hell. You're in PH. What do you do with your newbies? Same as us, stuff them in free frigates and throw them at your enemies en masse. THAT is how you get newbies to stick around, Engage with them, teach them how to play, and yes, kill them repeatedly. Don't wrap them in cotton wool and pretend that helps anyone.
If you want a themepark MMO, go find one. Don't take the sand out of the box because a bigger kid kicked it in your face. But yeah... +1 to this
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
289
|
Posted - 2016.10.12 19:24:38 -
[53] - Quote
Renfus wrote:
Anyone here ever play Starwars Galaxies?? Or any other mmo that got shut down because they lost their the player base ..? It sucks to have years invested into a game and have it end because the devs made all the wrong decisions..
Are you trolling? SWG changed from its' original vision to try to attract the mythical new player. As you should know, they ended up losing most of their players without attracting new ones. The only "wrong decisions" they seem to be making is following your advice and making the game safer trying to attract new players, while alienating current players...which is exactly what you're advocating CCP do. |
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