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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2842
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Posted - 2016.10.19 10:47:11 -
[121] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote:Very nice so proved that older/richer characters are producing more per capital. Industrialists exist but a lot of these are Null alts producing in Hi-sec. Not Hi-sec miner/Industrialists. So an industrialist who produces in highsec is not a hisec industrialist? You sound like a highsec miner claiming "I am not a miner" after being exploded by an Agent of the New Order while mining.
Mark Marconi wrote:As can be seen here in newer figures, the supplies of Hi-Sec minerals are falling even after the expansion that increased mineral content. While Null/WH minerals are on the increase. Sure, they fell 10% after Fozzie reworked how the minerals work to better serve nullsec production, so what? It is not as wide a gap as for production, but the majority of mining goes on largely in highsec regions still today.
What does any of that have to do with highsec ganking, let alone the OP?
Mark Marconi wrote:So a lot of hi-sec producers exist but not many miners which is what I am referring to as Industrialists. Those who mine and produce in Hi-Sec. Also if there were so many Hi-Sec miners, how could the value of Hi-Sec minerals double? And if there are so many casual miners left why is the cost of plex so high?
So let me get this straight, they are not "true highsec producers" by your definition even though they mine and build stuff in highsec. The majority of both mining and industry still takes place in highsec barely budging from the historic numbers, yet you are still trying to claim that all the highsec industrialists have left?
Mineral prices can increase for many reasons that have nothing to do with rates of mining production. These include increasing demand, increasing costs of PLEX, changes in the rules around input multiplexing, removal of "gun mining", as well as general inflation. I am not sure for what time period you think they have "doubled" but regardless I don't see how you can connect that to the number of miners that have left the game.
As for PLEX prices, that is a symptom of more ISK in the game and several steps removed from mining and thus probably not directly related. But if anything, the number of hours of mining to earn a PLEX equivalent has gone up over time, which is something you would expect if there were more miners in the game competing at selling ore to buy PLEX. If they were leaving, you would expect the value ratio of ore:PLEX to go in the other direction as ore became more rare (and thus more valuable) and the departing miners consumed less PLEX from the market (thus reducing the value of PLEX).
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Mark Marconi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
27
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Posted - 2016.10.19 10:54:06 -
[122] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Mark Marconi wrote:Very nice so proved that older/richer characters are producing more per capital. Industrialists exist but a lot of these are Null alts producing in Hi-sec. Not Hi-sec miner/Industrialists. So an industrialist who produces in highsec is not a hisec industrialist? You sound like a highsec miner claiming "I am not a miner" after being exploded by an Agent of the New Order while mining. Mark Marconi wrote:As can be seen here in newer figures, the supplies of Hi-Sec minerals are falling even after the expansion that increased mineral content. While Null/WH minerals are on the increase. Sure, they fell 10% after Fozzie reworked how the minerals work to better serve nullsec production, so what? It is not as wide a gap as for production, but the majority of mining goes on largely in highsec regions still today. What does any of that have to do with highsec ganking, let alone the OP? Mark Marconi wrote:So a lot of hi-sec producers exist but not many miners which is what I am referring to as Industrialists. Those who mine and produce in Hi-Sec. Also if there were so many Hi-Sec miners, how could the value of Hi-Sec minerals double? And if there are so many casual miners left why is the cost of plex so high?
So let me get this straight, they are not "true highsec producers" by your definition even though they mine and build stuff in highsec. The majority of both mining and industry still takes place in highsec barely budging from the historic numbers, yet you are still trying to claim that all the highsec industrialists have left? Mineral prices can increase for many reasons that have nothing to do with rates of mining production. The include increasing demand, increasing costs of PLEX, changes in the rules around input multiplexing, removal of "gun mining", as well as general inflation. I am not sure for what time period you think they have "doubled" but regardless I don't see how you can connect that to the number of miners that have left the game. As for PLEX prices, that is a symptom of more ISK in the game and several steps removed from mining and thus probably not directly related. But if anything, the number of hours of mining to earn a PLEX equivalent has gone up over time, which is something you would expect if there were more miners in the game competing at selling ore to buy PLEX. If they were leaving, you would expect the value ratio of ore:PLEX to go in the other direction as ore became more rare (and thus more valuable) and the departing miners consumed less PLEX from the market (thus reducing the value of PLEX). Yes it must all just be a coincidence that user numbers fall everytime Hi-sec miners get screwed. I would say industrialist but you confuse them with anyone who ever sets foot in Hi-sec. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2842
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Posted - 2016.10.19 10:59:49 -
[123] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote:Yes it must all just be a coincidence that user numbers fall everytime Hi-sec miners get screwed. I would say industrialist but you confuse them with anyone who ever sets foot in Hi-sec. Highsec miners are the safest they have ever been. By simply choosing to fly a tanked Skiff they can effectively make themselves immune to any unwanted player interaction and grind away without a worry in the world.
Other game changes have and may continue to impact on their profitability however. The latest boost changes might be the biggest hit yet to highsec mining. CCP is making these changes to make the game better as a whole though, and that means sometimes playstyles take a hit or are eliminated completely. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. That's life in the sandbox.
Well I think this thread has run its course.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Mark Marconi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
27
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Posted - 2016.10.19 11:07:20 -
[124] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: Well I think this thread has run its course.
Well at least we agree on something. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18315
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Posted - 2016.10.19 11:58:58 -
[125] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote: Yes it must all just be a coincidence that user numbers fall everytime Hi-sec miners get screwed. I would say industrialist but you confuse them with anyone who ever sets foot in Hi-sec.
Highsec numbers have fallen as the pvp has been removed (aka as safety has gone up). |
PsiMin
Cylon Advance Care Factor
76
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Posted - 2016.10.19 12:14:54 -
[126] - Quote
Nero Jove wrote:Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated.
Bumpers are the scum of the earth as it is just to cause harassment and annoyance,
When I used to mine in high sec its annoying as sustained bumping in a system is still classed as harassment and can be logged, however CCP tend not to do much about it.
One way of stopping it happening is
Miners to orbit the roid at around 7k also get them to use MTU's, save the locations to your Orca, once full orca warps to them and scoops the ore
Orca has a Tractor beam - You cannot stop the orca being bumped due to it being slower than a sleeping Snail but you then just use your tractor beam, when full warp off and re-join.
You do lose a slight performance around 10-15% doing it this way but it will not stop your miners.
OTHER OPTION
Spend some time with your chars and do the same to them to stop them mining |
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
66
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Posted - 2016.10.19 13:42:03 -
[127] - Quote
See, Mark really believes that is was the buff to the catalyst that resulted in the rise of organized ganking, when in fact it was much more the result of the buff to barges. Cultural changes trump relatively minor tweeks to the numbers.
I remember the catalyst buff as a side note to the rise of the New Order that happened well after the New Order movement had begun. It was sort of a "oh, that's nice. Carry on." from my perspective. Shrug.
I think ultimately folks like Mark Marconi want to nerf our ability to work together.
I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. |
pajedas
Special Activities Division
275
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Posted - 2016.10.19 14:01:24 -
[128] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Highsec numbers have fallen as the pvp has been removed (aka as safety has gone up). You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
Wait...are you trying?
Gÿà Mass Test Gÿà
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pajedas
Special Activities Division
275
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Posted - 2016.10.19 14:05:09 -
[129] - Quote
Galaxy Duck wrote:I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future.
Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space.
They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen.
You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living.
Gÿà Mass Test Gÿà
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2931
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Posted - 2016.10.19 14:24:48 -
[130] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. I am sure the mission runners would be thrilled. Another quality idea brought to you by AG. You guys are amazing.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
115
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Posted - 2016.10.19 14:27:41 -
[131] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living.
It's space. nothing about space should, or is, safe. High sec included. It's high SECURITY, as in lots of armed guards, not a "safe space" as in you're a goddam snowflake and no one should touch you. |
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
67
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Posted - 2016.10.19 14:40:28 -
[132] - Quote
pajedas wrote:baltec1 wrote:Highsec numbers have fallen as the pvp has been removed (aka as safety has gone up). You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Wait...are you trying?
Ummm... could you specify which part he's wrong about? Because both of those things in fact did occur and they in fact did correlate temporally.
You can say correlation not causation blah blah, sure. But also notice that Baltec never mentions causation. |
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
67
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Posted - 2016.10.19 14:42:22 -
[133] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living.
Lol the day I ever have to grind anything is the day I uninstall the game.
Grinding is for carebears, carebears are for food. |
pajedas
Special Activities Division
275
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Posted - 2016.10.19 14:54:06 -
[134] - Quote
I almost forgot how dedicated the ganker trolls are.
It's like trying to take welfare from people that have lived off of it for generations.
They'll do anything to hold onto it.
What are you so afraid of?
Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2466
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Posted - 2016.10.19 15:17:06 -
[135] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote: Yes it must all just be a coincidence that user numbers fall everytime Hi-sec miners get screwed. I would say industrialist but you confuse them with anyone who ever sets foot in Hi-sec.
[citation needed]
I'm trying to think of the last time hi-sec miners were screwed on... anything.
If you're up for some real cognitive dissonance, go ahead and check the publication date of the HTFU video and plot it against those numbers you're so hard for.
If you want to correlate the decline with something, the closest match is the abandonment of that attitude in favor of trying to appeal to a broader audience.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
52
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Posted - 2016.10.19 15:22:13 -
[136] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living.
I'd be OK with no weapons in High Sec if high sec was reduced to the starter systems. otherwise what's the point?
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Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
71
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Posted - 2016.10.19 15:28:35 -
[137] - Quote
pajedas wrote:I almost forgot how dedicated the ganker trolls are.
It's like trying to take welfare from people that have lived off of it for generations.
They'll do anything to hold onto it.
What are you so afraid of?
I guess if I was afraid of anything, it would be EVE becoming some lame game where I have to grind stuff. But that'll never happen, so meh.
You wanna answer the question concerning Baltec's post now instead of dodging it? |
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
559
|
Posted - 2016.10.19 15:41:33 -
[138] - Quote
PsiMin wrote:
Bumpers are the scum of the earth as it is just to cause harassment and annoyance,
When I used to mine in high sec its annoying as sustained bumping in a system is still classed as harassment and can be logged, however CCP tend not to do much about it.
The reason CCP tends to not do much about it is because it is not harassment. It isn't now and wasn't in the past. If you sent in petitions and nothing happened, its because your petition was nothing more than an amusing couple minute read for some CCP employee.
Bumping of miners has an economic and political motive. There is a definite reason its done and a definite reason its allowed. It has been subhumed somewhat by the rise of miner ganking but I anticipate a return to bumping personally after the November changes to boosting. Boosting range now becoming a thing and all.
Highsec is worth fighting for.
By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.-á www.minerbumping.com
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pajedas
Special Activities Division
275
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Posted - 2016.10.19 15:48:25 -
[139] - Quote
I don't have to dodge anything.
I've seen hundreds of lame ducks like you come and go over the years.
Fact: CCP has ran the game down so far that they're having to give it away.
I guess they listened to the wrong voices.
Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45195
|
Posted - 2016.10.19 16:52:26 -
[140] - Quote
@OP:
In addition to all the suggestions in the first 4 pages of the thread, have you tried talking to the guy yet?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18315
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Posted - 2016.10.19 17:00:13 -
[141] - Quote
pajedas wrote:baltec1 wrote:Highsec numbers have fallen as the pvp has been removed (aka as safety has gone up). You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Wait...are you trying?
So we have higher numbers now than 5 years ago? |
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
72
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Posted - 2016.10.19 17:07:08 -
[142] - Quote
Oh, he's not gonna let you pin him down with your fancy "facts" and "evidence", Baltec. He knows what he knows and what he knows is static. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5387
|
Posted - 2016.10.19 17:08:07 -
[143] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mark Marconi wrote: Yes you did get an insurance payout now its gotten so easy to gank, you dont need it.
And who do you have to thank for that? Gankers? No, CCP. You are so blinkered you cannot see that CCP has been playing you for fools. If you had just shut up and stopped whining you could autopilot between Jita and whereever so long as you kept the cargo load low enough. Classic case of you got what you asked for dumbass. Quote:So maybe you should stop acting like it is your right to be able to destroy hundreds of millions of isk ships for a few ratty destroyers, while you pretend that ganking has gotten so hard. Meanwhile most of the industrialists have left this game. How about you exercise some prudence. Why are you sitting here stamping our foot like an impetuous and spoiled child who thinks the game resolves around them. Stop moving multiple billions of ISK in one fell swoop vs. several low risk trips, or get a JF and just jump past such problem systems? Seriously you sit here whining like a little ***** that there is nothing you can do when in fact the power has always been with you. It is well past time you grew up and started acting in a prudent and reasonable matter. So we are down to the cant attack the argument, attack the person part. It does not change the fact that it takes 11 catalysts with T2 guns and Ammo costing 9.09 mill each to kill a freighter empty or not. The gankers are making billions from little to no effort because even a freighter carrying 200 mill in goods covers the cost when half of it blows up. No Industrialists did not get what they wanted, I can't remember any industrialist ever saying :Please buff the destroyers" that was the PvP types. You don't seem to get it there is no low risk trips. Newbie ships are being ganked for fun, hulks and macks for chuckles and freighters for massive profits. And yet you say i am acting like a child because I want risk vs reward reinstated because at the moment the Industrialists are taking all the risks and the gankers are getting all the rewards. While you just want the gravy train to continue.
There is plenty of argument in there and it applies to both RL and the game. If you are prudent you'll be fine, if you are imprudent you won't be fine...well unless you work on Wall Street in which case you'll get a bail out.
That's it. CODE. Miniluv, and the rest impose consequences for being imprudent. That's it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5387
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Posted - 2016.10.19 17:39:09 -
[144] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote: Very nice so proved that older/richer characters are producing more per capital. Industrialists exist but a lot of these are Null alts producing in Hi-sec. Not Hi-sec miner/Industrialists.
How do you know industrialists are NS alts?
Quote:As can be seen here in newer figures, the supplies of Hi-Sec minerals are falling even after the expansion that increased mineral content. While Null/WH minerals are on the increase.
Actually looks like they declined then stabilized. And that change...isn't that when minerals in NS got a major re-work? Not seeing the ganking narrative here.
So? Not seeing the point here.
Quote:So a lot of hi-sec producers exist but not many miners which is what I am referring to as Industrialists. Those who mine and produce in Hi-Sec. Also if there were so many Hi-Sec miners, how could the value of Hi-Sec minerals double? And if there are so many casual miners left why is the cost of plex so high?
Miners are industrialists but industrialists are not miners. When I mine it is exactly the kind of casual thing you talk about. I myself do not produce in HS as it is cheaper to do so in LS or NS, and if you know what you are doing moving stuff in and out is not tough or risky.
The cost of plex is related to a number of factors. For example, CCP has been using PLEX for more and more of their services. IIRC it was like $10 to transfer a character between accounts, now it costs a PLEX. Skill injectors also likely played a factor as well. As for the long term trend, that is probably due to the growth in ISK and also the fact that PLEX started out so damn cheap.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5387
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Posted - 2016.10.19 17:42:14 -
[145] - Quote
PsiMin wrote:
When I used to mine in high sec its annoying as sustained bumping in a system is still classed as harassment and can be logged, however CCP tend not to do much about it.
No it is not harassment. The guy is trying to claim those resources and using a valid in game tactic. Either shoot the bumping ship, try to bump his ships, get to the resources before he does, or move.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
299
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Posted - 2016.10.19 17:50:47 -
[146] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:pajedas wrote:Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. I am sure the mission runners would be thrilled. Another quality idea brought to you by AG. You guys are amazing.
Possible Veers Alt? Same undeserved smugness despite being totally clueless |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5388
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Posted - 2016.10.19 17:51:24 -
[147] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living.
No. HS is not supposed to be safe space. HS is "safer" space, and you are supposed to take some precautions.
The first rule of EVE has always been, do not undock in anything you cannot afford to lose, and that goes for haulers too.
Your imagination of what the future would be like IRL is irrelevant because in part this is a game balance issue. For example, in the future with advanced technology couldn't I set up a condition so that if my drones take say 35% shield damage they automatically return to the drone bay, and that after 10 seconds they are launched again? Why don't my crew start firing the guns when reloaded. How come I can't issue a "weapons free" command? I supposedly have a crew but not a damn one of them can think for themselves?
And you keep implying that ganking is lazy, but they set up comms, they have scouts, they have cargo scanners, somebody is probably plugging it into evepraisal and checking the value. Then there is the bumping ships, the logistics of getting ships and ammo into staging systems. Then there is all the work of reimbursing people for ships, or assembling the ships and handing them out.
But you do not take even the slightest of precautions and they are the lazy ones?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
299
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Posted - 2016.10.19 17:54:04 -
[148] - Quote
pajedas wrote:I don't have to dodge anything.
I've seen hundreds of lame ducks like you come and go over the years.
Fact: CCP has ran the game down so far that they're having to give it away.
I guess they listened to the wrong voices.
Yes, they're listening to voices of people like you |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5388
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Posted - 2016.10.19 17:55:29 -
[149] - Quote
pajedas wrote:I don't have to dodge anything.
I've seen hundreds of lame ducks like you come and go over the years.
Fact: CCP has ran the game down so far that they're having to give it away.
I guess they listened to the wrong voices.
Except ganking has gotten harder not easier. So much for your narrative.
So in way you are right, they listened to the wrong voices...and tried to make HS have a broader appeal and looking at the numbers it has failed miserably.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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pajedas
Special Activities Division
275
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Posted - 2016.10.19 18:05:46 -
[150] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Except ganking has gotten harder not easier. So much for your narrative.
So in way you are right, they listened to the wrong voices...and tried to make HS have a broader appeal and looking at the numbers it has failed miserably. Your childlike interpretation of the facts is almost cute.
For the record, you're saying that "ganking is hard"?
Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
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