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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
141
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Posted - 2016.10.11 01:38:44 -
[1] - Quote
Okay, where to begin?
So the devs hope to encourage small entities to use structures so they give them weaker, less well armed, and more vulnerable structures and actually expect anyone to use them outside of the large power groups? Pathetic.
Then to add insult to injury they hype up mining in a 3 billion isk ship and then not let that ship dock in most of the damn industrial structures they are making. Talk about pants on head ********.
And as if that wasn't enough the pissant structures they did put out lack the versatility to support any decent industrial operation and will drain you dry with fuel costs to boot.
Sorry CCP, but your plans on this kinda blow. I'll stick to NPC stations thanks. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
141
|
Posted - 2016.10.11 02:05:25 -
[2] - Quote
MuraSaki Siki wrote:when supers are built at X-large Complexes, what happen when the job delivered? would that supers ejected from Complexes automatically? or just like other ships you can fit it inside the Complexes?
Probably delivered inside (with the external view instead of the hangar when active) then to undock it just comes off the drydock area where it was built and can't redock once it leaves the structure. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
145
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Posted - 2016.10.11 09:26:14 -
[3] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Black Pedro wrote:It is broken that a lone player can build almost everything with 100% safety in a single highsec POS. It provides for little player choice, incentive to join forces, and provides little content to those looking to wreck dreams rather than build them. There is no 100% safety in hisec POSes. ... POSes were taken down. ECs will be taken down. Nothing will change in that regard. There is 100% safety in highsec POSes. You get 24h notice of a war and have sufficient time to remove every single bit of your in-space infrastructure to the absolute safety of a station. Unless you cannot login during the warm-up period to a war, you can with certainty remove any chance of loss of your space station. They are 100% safe. ECs cannot be taken down within that 24 hours. Have you not read the devblog, or noticed this fact with Citadels? They take 7 days to unanchor, and thus yes are vulnerable to attack by someone who objects to your industrial operation. That is a long overdue fix for highsec player-owned structures. I am glad the clock is finally ticking down for those POSes.
Then CCP doesn't want their new structures to be used. Part of their stated design philosophy for new structures was to ensure same functionality. So far they have failed miserably with EC's |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
145
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Posted - 2016.10.11 09:56:26 -
[4] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Then CCP doesn't want their new structures to be used. Part of their stated design philosophy for new structures was to ensure same functionality. So far they have failed miserably with EC's I see usually one, of not multiple, Citadels in every system I visit. And those things do practically nothing. I have no doubt these will get used, and used widely. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to though. You can build in an NPC station and it will probably be cheaper for most casual players to do so. Or pay someone else to use their EC and outsource the hassle of deploying, fueling and defending them. You will be at a disadvantage to players braver and/or more organized than you, but you definitely do not have to use these structures if you don't want to. But what you will no longer be able to do is hide behind CONCORD mechanics and run your invulnerable one-man, build anything in the game operation and still be competitive with the larger groups who organize, invest in, and defend their industrial operations. Sure, this is a hit to a previously popular playstyle, but really it is how the game should have worked in the first place. If you were starting over and designing a competitive sandbox game, you would want the rules to encourage players to have to make choices and trade-offs, join forces, and be able to disrupt each other in order to build things. This just seems like CCP is just correcting the mistakes of the past to make the game more like is intended to work. I am not their spokesperson though and don't really know their intentions, so if you take issue with this change, I suggest you talk to CCP or your CSM representative to voice your displeasure.
I'm sure the null blocs will love them, all 10 to 20 of them they have to build to do the same things that POS can do now. I'm sure miners will love trying to dock their rorquals in them and having to resort to DST hand offs because the devs didn't think an INDUSTRIAL CAPITAL SHIP should be able to dock or even interface with an INDUSTRIAL FACILITY. And I'm sure griefers, wardeccers and scumbags like Lenny are chomping at the bit to be the first to kill one of these gimped loot pinatas. So yeah they'll be getting an earful at Vegas. I guarantee it. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
147
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Posted - 2016.10.11 19:55:17 -
[5] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:No, the table saw needs 15. The table saw, MIG welder, drill press, router, power washer, sand blaster, and bandsaw, in aggregate, cost 45, and the guy in question could actually get by with a hand saw and a tape measure...
...but he WANTS the toys. You folks go round in circles. - I want to build stuff! - Here is your EC - But 104 rigs too difficult! - Buy XL - But I'm poor! - Use public - But my freedom! - Use stations - Inefficient! - POS is your choice then - Outdated! - Go buy items in the market and deal with it - But I want to build stuff! This is a new structure, it gives you new choices. If your cannot handle making choices, then industry might not be your thing, and EVE itself might not be your game either. I like the direction where it goes. Great design plan, hope it works out. It needs some corrections (mentioned earlier, not going to repeat it here), but in general this iteration looks really good.
Yes, the new structures do give you choices, unfortunately almost all of them are complete shite. The only wining move is not to use the new structures, becasue they are either to granular, too expensive or to costly to fuel. No good options.a |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
150
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Posted - 2016.10.11 20:36:38 -
[6] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Yes, the new structures do give you choices, unfortunately almost all of them are complete shite. The only wining move is not to use the new structures, becasue they are either to granular, too expensive or to costly to fuel. No good options.a No problem! If up to 6% ME discount doesnt mean a thing for you, dont use them. Dont want your private market? Sure, why bother - 2.5% brokers fee is not much. Courier contracts? Oh I'm sorry, hauling you do is free. Week-long double reinforcement timers? Assets safety? Too risky, of course. No good options for you is totally fine. Many good options for me though, which is fine too. Rob Kaichin wrote:the more people you expel as "not fit for Eve", the less people you get to play with The more people quit their second job which is EVE for them, the more people can play a game which is EVE in the first place.
If you think the numbers are good as they stand now, good luck to you. I shall enjoy watching you go bankrupt trying to leverage low bonuses against high fuel costs. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
153
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Posted - 2016.10.12 07:21:01 -
[7] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Vald Tegor wrote:You are back to step one of figuring out what the most profitable arrangement will be for your particular operation. Remaining a solo industrialist will not be a foregone conclusion. Most of us already know what the most profitable arrangement is, and it's returning to NPC stations. We're trying to avoid that, and the fact that people are pushing that as a good option seem to forget that NPC stations offer absolute, perfect security for assets (as long as the person holding them isn't utterly foolish). We're trying to argue for a way to keep ourselves profitable without do that, so we can stay in space, where our assets are at risk, as opposed to using an NPC station, where there's no risk at all. It seems counter-intuitive to drive high-value assets into an NPC station, but that's exactly what's going to be happening for the small groups. Vald Tegor wrote: Why do you not want to play a multiplayer game with others, now that you will finally be able to?
I dare say that most of us are already being social in the game. For many of the small-time and solo industrialists, it's something we do on alts to be able to make ISK that we use on our mains. We interact with our corp on our mains, we're flying out in space on our mains, and we socialize with the game on our mains. We don't socialize with corps on our alts because they're alts that we spend minimal time on in order to spend our time with our mates on our mains.
Well, this guy gets it. Just so sad so many others don't seem to. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
162
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Posted - 2016.10.12 18:54:06 -
[8] - Quote
Well it appears CCP killing gambling has overshadowed them trying to kill industry. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
167
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Posted - 2016.10.12 22:51:33 -
[9] - Quote
Vald Tegor wrote:Babbet Bunny wrote:Vald Tegor wrote:Babbet Bunny wrote: And only 1% faster if you have the T2 rig.
Can you elaborate on this? An Azbel gets a base 10% reduction to build and research times. A high sec T2 rig gives a further 28.8% build time reduction. The hull itself increases the rig by 25% to a 36% reduction. That is a net build time of 57.6% of base, or a 42.4% reduction. I don't have a high sec station on hand to compare, but null outposts only get a 30% bonus. That's a hell of a lot more than 1% faster. The job also only costs 96.4% of the materials in said Azbel. Currently a Hyasoda lab has 35% reduction to research not including skills and I did forget the additional hull bonus. So 7.4% faster for 3 times the fuel and 10 times the structure cost. Herein lies your problem. You are comparing the new fancy lab to your derelict factory from world war 2 that is scheduled for demolition in 6 months. Continuing to use your current lab is not an option. The comparison is your own EC vs public EC vs unbonused combat citadel vs NPC station.
Just because the better option is going to go away soon doesn't make it non-viable while it can still be used. It just means you don't want to see people making the best decision they can make. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
173
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Posted - 2016.10.13 09:46:45 -
[10] - Quote
Vald Tegor wrote:Urziel99 wrote: Just because the better option is going to go away soon doesn't make it non-viable while it can still be used. It just means you don't want to see people making the best decision they can make.
I have no personal interest in people adapting early or not. But "It's not as op as my stick, I'll just stick with my stick" doesn't exactly help us discuss the future of industry does it? There are people with massive operations that may find it favorable to adapt early. Maybe. This is kind of the important part to go over. Will they? Will they allow others access? Or are the rest relying on people running a for profit factory they don't build at? There are a lot of small time guys. It's pretty obvious they are not supposed to build one of their own. They are supposed to use someone elses. There won't exactly be many viable choices for them to move to on November 10th. They will obviously stay with their current setup. But what about January 10th? March? See post #446. Will they take down their tower and use a public facility because it makes sense, not because they are forced to?
The future of Industry for anyone not in a bog bloc is pretty obvious. NPC Stations. Lose bonuses but have no over head and no exorbitant fuel cost as well as asset invulnerability. There, Discussion over. GG |
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Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
173
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Posted - 2016.10.13 12:52:09 -
[11] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Chani El'zrya wrote:Urziel99 wrote: Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to? EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!
There are two reasons : 1) Access to T3 production 2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station. Wrong! You dont need to build YOUR OWN factory! It does not! HAVE! TO! BE! IN! YOUR! POSSESSION! The mental inertia is so strong with some people, it seriously blows my mind.
This is Eve. No one is to be trusted. That includes EC owners. Too easy to get locked out and have to shell out isk for asset safety and be deied access to assets for at least 5 days. Nevermind the fact that the cost index was designed to keep builders separated. You can thank CCP for the isolation of small industrialist with terrible game mechanics. These new EC are so granular an the bonuses so crap it's not worth the effort of hauling all over hell and half of Georgia to find a public EC with the right setup for every conceivable build job.
Once again. The NPC station remains the best choice to avoid all the headache and bad game design. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
174
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Posted - 2016.10.13 14:00:52 -
[12] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Skia Aumer wrote:Chani El'zrya wrote:Urziel99 wrote: Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to? EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!
There are two reasons : 1) Access to T3 production 2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station. Wrong! You dont need to build YOUR OWN factory! It does not! HAVE! TO! BE! IN! YOUR! POSSESSION! The mental inertia is so strong with some people, it seriously blows my mind. This is Eve. No one is to be trusted. That includes EC owners. Too easy to get locked out and have to shell out isk for asset safety and be deied access to assets for at least 5 days. Nevermind the fact that the cost index was designed to keep builders separated. You can thank CCP for the isolation of small industrialist with terrible game mechanics. These new EC are so granular an the bonuses so crap it's not worth the effort of hauling all over hell and half of Georgia to find a public EC with the right setup for every conceivable build job. Once again. The NPC station remains the best choice to avoid all the headache and bad game design. The same exactly things were said when CCP introduced first citadels and increased market taxes. "No one will use citadels because of risk, etc..." Now look at Jita and surroundings: lots of fortizars with market orders. System does its job.
Most of the orders in the citaels are plex that can be redeemed there and never needs to leave. The rest of the activity is offshoring. now imagine how much they would be used if the broker fee went up based on the amount of activity in the system. Then you might have a similar situation to evaluate. Till then, apples meet oranges.
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Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
174
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Posted - 2016.10.13 14:05:26 -
[13] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Chani El'zrya wrote:As already said many times on this thread, there are two options for entry level industrialist: 1) NPC station 2) Public ECs/Citadels
Both comes with serious disadvantages compared to current POS system in terms of profitability when operating in high sec space + the risk of wardec. Those are facts nothing to be discussed anymore (break even point is too high for casual indy...). Let's put it another way. Right now, "casual indy" can use POS. What tools can use "hardcore indy", to have some advantage?
Nullsec outposts. Lowsec Thukker Arrays. Thank you Comae Again. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
174
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Posted - 2016.10.13 14:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Skia Aumer wrote:Chani El'zrya wrote:As already said many times on this thread, there are two options for entry level industrialist: 1) NPC station 2) Public ECs/Citadels
Both comes with serious disadvantages compared to current POS system in terms of profitability when operating in high sec space + the risk of wardec. Those are facts nothing to be discussed anymore (break even point is too high for casual indy...). Let's put it another way. Right now, "casual indy" can use POS. What tools can use "hardcore indy", to have some advantage? Nullsec outposts. Lowsec Thukker Arrays. Thank you Comae Again. We are talking about hisec. Because you folks have no idea how production in nullsec works and I have no intention to give you classes atm.
Strong words, you don't know me very well, do you? |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
174
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Posted - 2016.10.13 19:19:39 -
[15] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Strong words, you don't know me very well, do you? I know that you like switching topics. Risks in citadels. Please answer.
Loss from station tax hikes. Loss from Asset safety delays (5-21 days with no material or blueprints) Loss from Asset Safety fees, if applicable. Loss of components from jobs in progress if EC destroyed. Loss of time hauling to EC's in hopes of getting small bonuses.
And that's just if you are an end user and not the owner.
None of these are acceptable given the low and spastic potential bonuses being offered. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
184
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Posted - 2016.10.16 17:05:13 -
[16] - Quote
l0cal tears wrote:Didn't you get it backwards?
Shouldn't Citadels have longer vuln windows since they can defend themselves and have more EHP? The Engineering complexes with their lower EHP and lesser ability to defend themselves, should be the ones with the shorter window to balance things out.
That smallest complex is gonna be killed far too often!
They think industrialists are also masochists apparently. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
186
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Posted - 2016.10.19 22:15:36 -
[17] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:id like to add a few missing notes. since ccp for certain reasons are not bringing it up at all
1) when will the structures BPO hull be seeded? 2) how come there wasn't an announcement of how much those bpo's would cost ahead of time just like you did for citadels? 3) how come you're not allowing those bpo's proper researching times? you gave us a window to research them up so what gives? 4) how come you haven't and or not announcing the prices of the standup manufacturing, researching, invention service mods?
A few of the details still appear to be in flux. For example the research service modules currently use 5 blocks per hour instead of 20 and the rigs haven't been seeded yet. Hard to price things on TQ when the fine details aren't ironed out. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
190
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Posted - 2016.10.26 14:58:32 -
[18] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: and even CCP can't know how this will work out, but they have a vision for this game and are continuing to work towards that.
If you call this shitshow a vision, it has a pretty epic case of Myopia and Glaucoma. |
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