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Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
66
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Posted - 2016.10.10 23:54:18 -
[1] - Quote
In hisec, you can set up a large POS somewhere the manufacturing index isn't too high and you can build whatever's profitable.
In a M/L engineering complex, you can only fit 3 rigs, which means you can only build 3 item categories competitively.
So you either stop building such a variety of things, or you build multiple engineering complexes and spend your life moving materials and components around between the complexes.
Or you can use public complexes which will have awful manufacturing indexes and stop you being competitive.
All in all, I'm not convinced that these engineering complexes are an improvement for many hisec manufacturers. (Clearly they provide interesting improvements in null, low and WH space though).
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Cable Nathan Summers
The Samsara Collective
0
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Posted - 2016.10.11 01:00:40 -
[2] - Quote
Imagine a universe with only these and no more NPC stations. Entire regions will burn. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6451
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Posted - 2016.10.11 01:17:07 -
[3] - Quote
Unless I'm misunderstanding, there is no combination of rigs that is superior to a hisec research starbase at a competitive cost.
For manufacturing, specialization does offer some improvement. |
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
992
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Posted - 2016.10.11 01:48:34 -
[4] - Quote
Messenger Of Truth wrote:All in all, I'm not convinced that these engineering complexes are an improvement for many hisec manufacturers. (Clearly they provide interesting improvements in null, low and WH space though).
If you want the safety of HiSec manufacturing, you have to accept some kind of trade-off in return for hanging onto CONCORD's apron strings.
If you want all the you beaut bonuses and goodies that come with holding Sov, go out and claim yourself some Sov. Protip: the ONLY actual real benefits of holding Sov are 1: Ability to anchor an SCSAA, 2: Certain iHub upgrades that give rather major benefits to hard-core mining corporations and 3: Sov POS Fuel Bonuses. That's pretty much it at the moment. In return for these somewhat meager rewards, you have a mountain of hassle and annoyances. Not least of which is playing Sov Lazor Shenanigans.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2422
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Posted - 2016.10.11 02:34:55 -
[5] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Messenger Of Truth wrote:All in all, I'm not convinced that these engineering complexes are an improvement for many hisec manufacturers. (Clearly they provide interesting improvements in null, low and WH space though). If you want the safety of HiSec manufacturing, you have to accept some kind of trade-off in return for hanging onto CONCORD's apron strings. If you want all the you beaut bonuses and goodies that come with holding Sov, go out and claim yourself some Sov. Protip: the ONLY actual real benefits of holding Sov are 1: Ability to anchor an SCSAA, 2: Certain iHub upgrades that give rather major benefits to hard-core mining corporations and 3: Sov POS Fuel Bonuses. That's pretty much it at the moment. In return for these somewhat meager rewards, you have a mountain of hassle and annoyances. Not least of which is playing Sov Lazor Shenanigans.
TBH, given the fuel costs, I have my doubts about the economics even outside of high sec right now. At least for manufacturing, the volume of industry required to offset the fuel costs (relative to POS) may end up erasing the benefit through the system index. I haven't done any math to verify this yet, but it is something I want to look into.
In the long run, the removal of POS would eventually rectify that problem, but in the short-mid term, I have my doubts.
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
570
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Posted - 2016.10.11 07:33:58 -
[6] - Quote
Cable Nathan Summers wrote:Imagine a universe with only these and no more NPC stations. Entire regions will burn. NPC stations used to be destructible, you know.. I don't think CCP is ever going down that path again.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Do Little
Virgin Plc Evictus.
430
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Posted - 2016.10.11 08:35:56 -
[7] - Quote
They split the functionality of the design lab so you need 2 service modules to copy and invent. Plus the medium uses more fuel than a large POS. I'll be keeping my small POS until they forcibly remove it from the game! |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2984
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Posted - 2016.10.11 10:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Unfortunately as expected. The new structures are inferior to existing solutions, not so much because of invulnerability but because raising the bar for setup and operation to be only profitable if resources are shared ... which will "nicely" be compensated by the system index.
... but maybe I should be happy, since NPC station building becomes more competitive with this ... until they nerf it to the ground if the new structures get ignored.
As was with broker fee, raising the entrance barrier and operational effort for an activity while maintaining benefits of anti-social behavior (e.g. index) in game, is unlikely helping player happiness and retention. This just splits the player base further in rich no-lifers / power blocs and poor casuals / small groups ... but maybe this is the plan, to milk more RL money from those casuals.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
67
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Posted - 2016.10.11 11:08:13 -
[9] - Quote
Or they might be trying to push people out of hisec.
Using these instead of a POS to build in will be a worse experience as you will have to spread your stuff around across multiple structures. Even if you're building in an XL you will not be doing science in the same facility.
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Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
834
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Posted - 2016.10.12 08:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
As for system cost index:
Quote:Before we move forward, we have one quick PSA about new structures and System Cost Index multipliers. In the long-term we hope to add a sovereignty upgrade that reduces the industry system cost index, to replace the bonus that currently exists on outposts. However, for the medium-term outposts will be keeping their existing bonuses to system cost index multipliers. This means that there will be some benefits from placing Engineering Complexes in the same solar system as an outpost (especially an Amarr outpost), as well as placing them into highsec systems with large numbers of NPC stations. Engineering Complexes themselves will have no impact on the system cost index multiplier (just like starbases).
If you manage to get local producers into the Engineering Complex system cost index could be lowered. But I'm not sure if that is "producing at a Complex won't raise cost index" or "they won't give boni to cost index"... hoping for the first one.
Unfortunately as a smallballer producer I have to adjust my production lines every now and then to adjust to market oversupply, changes in the game meta, shortage on manufacturing material and so on... to have at least ME bonus for ammunition, drones, t2 components, small ships, advanced small ships, medium ships, advanced medium ships, deployables, structures, reprocessing(!) and invention (those are arrays I use and on/offline them at demand at a medium POS) I would need to set up 5 M Complexes or 3 L Complexes or 2 XL Complexes or destroy and change rigs every month.
Guess it will be POS until they are removed and after that back to station.
Using public Complexes will be a pain in the slot 11 as I'm pretty sure CCP is not going to add something to the beta-map or industry UI to let us search for nearby public Complexes with the best rigs for what we want to produce. |
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Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
68
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Posted - 2016.10.12 09:24:16 -
[11] - Quote
Samsara Toldya wrote:As for system cost index: Quote:This means that there will be some benefits from placing Engineering Complexes in the same solar system as an outpost (especially an Amarr outpost), as well as placing them into highsec systems with large numbers of NPC stations. Engineering Complexes themselves will have no impact on the system cost index multiplier (just like starbases). If you manage to get local producers into the Engineering Complex system cost index could be lowered. But I'm not sure if that is "producing at a Complex won't raise cost index" or "they won't give boni to cost index"... hoping for the first one.
Its almost certainly the second one - index multiplier rather than index.
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Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
834
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Posted - 2016.10.12 09:55:40 -
[12] - Quote
Messenger Of Truth wrote:Its almost certainly the second one - index multiplier rather than index.
This means that there will be some benefits from placing Engineering Complexes ... into highsec systems with large numbers of NPC stations. is what confuses me the most.
Today industry focused corporations punish themself for doing production/invention within one solar system as they make it more expensive by rising system cost index. The more active members these corporations have the worse it gets. Maybe that's why I'm hoping for the first...
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2990
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Posted - 2016.10.12 10:15:39 -
[13] - Quote
There is the index most people know about, which determines cost of jobs, based on the number and value of jobs in system. And there is the fixed index multiplier (e.g. 0.95) which will be applied to the index for each station (not POS, not EC) with the respective facility in system.
Hence, systems with a large number of NPC stations with facilities get a bonus to the index. But the index value itself scales with the number of chars actually doing stuff in system. There was no change in mechanics in this regard, ECs will just behave the same way as starbases do today.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Arronicus
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Badfellas Inc.
1527
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Posted - 2016.10.12 19:47:38 -
[14] - Quote
Most people I see complaining about the changes seem to be missing one important detail:
CCP made no promise that the new solution would maintain every single benefit of the current pos system. Sure, the new structures don't allow you to do everything, but that in itself is also a boon. By no longer allowing players to produce EVERYTHING at optimum efficiency from one location with relatively low risk, they are now making it so that, large industrial groups that have an interest in defending their operations maintain a similar ease of access to high efficiency production, and that those working on a smaller, more discreet scale still have the ability to fully specialize for select tasks without spending a fortune, but in the end, because fewer small enterprizes will be able to produce quite the breadth they produced before, there will be more opportunities for more players to enter niches in the market, and make meaningful gains. Sure, this might make the life of a select few dozen to couple hundred industrialists more of a headache, but it will also serve to introduce a risk/reward metric that largely does not currently exist, in highsec manufacturing anyway, but also in lolsec and null, as well as opening up the market to smaller players who want to get into it.
Aside from the fact that the medium engineering complex has no defenses worth mentioning whatsoever, but is completely vulnerable to wardecs at least once a week, making it a VERY desirable easy kill, especially with the prospect of the loot dropping, and that CCP somehow thought that having supercap builds show an animation on the XL was a good idea, I'm overall very happy with the eng array changes, and I say that as an industrialist. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3008
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Posted - 2016.10.13 12:44:57 -
[15] - Quote
Arronicus wrote: as well as opening up the market to smaller players who want to get into it.
Unless CCP forces us all to use the new structures, like they did with traders, by making NPC station production generally unprofitable ... otherwise I will be happy continuing using those with less competition, as I don't care much about a couple of percentage ME gain, and the TE is irrelevant for my playstyle.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
68
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Posted - 2016.10.13 13:02:28 -
[16] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Arronicus wrote: as well as opening up the market to smaller players who want to get into it.
Unless CCP forces us all to use the new structures, like they did with traders, by making NPC station production generally unprofitable ... otherwise I will be happy continuing using those with less competition, as I don't care much about a couple of percentage ME gain, and the TE is irrelevant for my playstyle.
The introduction of these engineering complexes *is* effectively a nerf across the board to POS and NPC stations as the market will adjust to the prices people can build at. Looking at ME, POS and NPC stations are now 1.6% and 3.6% less competitive than the hisec optimal (in contrast to 0% and 2% less competitive right now).
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Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
485
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Posted - 2016.10.13 15:00:17 -
[17] - Quote
Messenger Of Truth wrote:In hisec, you can set up a large POS somewhere the manufacturing index isn't too high and you can build whatever's profitable.
In a M/L engineering complex, you can only fit 3 rigs, which means you can only build 3 item categories competitively.
So you either stop building such a variety of things, or you build multiple engineering complexes and spend your life moving materials and components around between the complexes.
Or you can use public complexes which will have awful manufacturing indexes and stop you being competitive.
The only structure that matches the functionality of a large POS is an XL engineering complex, but their kill-mails are too juicy for all but certain well connected groups to seriously consider using.
All in all, I'm not convinced that these engineering complexes are an improvement for many hisec manufacturers. (Clearly they provide interesting improvements in null, low and WH space though).
Not only in HighSec, I just came from the W-Space subforum and someone there did the math and found out a large POS is still cheaper on fuel if you want to do industry in W-Space.
In effect, either CCP lowers the fuel costs drastically, or many people will just ignore them until POS are removed and they're forced to use them. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3008
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Posted - 2016.10.13 15:45:19 -
[18] - Quote
Messenger Of Truth wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Arronicus wrote: as well as opening up the market to smaller players who want to get into it.
Unless CCP forces us all to use the new structures, like they did with traders, by making NPC station production generally unprofitable ... otherwise I will be happy continuing using those with less competition, as I don't care much about a couple of percentage ME gain, and the TE is irrelevant for my playstyle. The introduction of these engineering complexes *is* effectively a nerf across the board to POS and NPC stations as the market will adjust to the prices people can build at. Looking at ME, POS and NPC stations are now 1.6% and 3.6% less competitive than the hisec optimal (in contrast to 0% and 2% less competitive right now). Not sure how you come to that conclusion ... the consensus is that ECs will make production more costly compared to POS and Outpost, so prices shall rise ... making NPC station production relatively more profitable if not changed. Right?
I'm my own NPC alt.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2457
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Posted - 2016.10.13 22:14:23 -
[19] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote: Not sure how you come to that conclusion ... the consensus is that ECs will make production more costly compared to POS and Outpost, so prices shall rise ... making NPC station production relatively more profitable if not changed. Right?
Well, no, not really right.
For a given location, they're only more costly compared to POS below a certain input threshold, after which the superior ME compensates for the relative fuel increase.
That "consensus" is mostly knee-jerky and completely ignores the ability to use other-people's-structures. A lot of people have been treating fairly manageable problems as if they're insurmountable dealbreakers. It's ridiculous.
In the short term, the ability to Dial-a-'Dex with a POS still gives them a clear advantage. This could be a deterrent to early adoption of ECs, but in the long run is irrelevant, as it will go away.
There are things I could stand to see changed or improved with the current plan. Some thoughts, none of which I think are absolutely mandatory, but all of which would make ECs more attractive to me:
-I think a base fuel cost of 16 for basic manu and lab services would be fine. This would mean 36/hr for a basic manu/research EC, instead of 45.
-I think ME and Time rigs could be consolidated at the medium level for manufacturing. That's still a HUGE number of rigs. Needing to blow 2 rig slots for an optimal T2 component factory, for instance, just seems like too much.
-I think the structure browser is going to need to be a lot more robust to adequately allow people to find an ideal public structure with their desired bonuses. Actually, I'll flat out say that I don't think this one is optional. The existing browser is completely insufficient given the current granularity of EC bonus design.
-I think the delineation between existing research and design labs should be preserved. That is, ME/TE in one research service, copying/invention in the other.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3011
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Posted - 2016.10.14 07:53:11 -
[20] - Quote
Well, you say everything is fine and scales, because you can use other people's facilities to compensate for the higher fuel and installation costs ... but why would somebody sane invite competitors who wreck the costs in that system?
There is a fundamental difference in how Citadels react to scale compared to EC. More people using citadel services -> better for everybody. More people using EC -> worse for everybody.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1536
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Posted - 2016.10.14 11:10:35 -
[21] - Quote
It's unfortunate, but the plan is to replace POSes with the new structures. Therefore there is no need, balance-wise, for the new structures to be competitive with POSes in the long term. They only have to be competitive with NPC stations, which may also receive further neutering in order to achieve the desired balance. So really, their bonuses and functional design can be terrible and they'll still end up being the best option once everything else has been nerfed into the ground or removed entirely.
My main concerns about the EC's are:
They are too expensive to fuel Their vulnerability windows are too big There are too many rigs
I think this makes them highly unattractive to smaller industrialists. Those players will be required to use either POS, NPC stations or a public EC/Citadel with the desired combination of services and rigs. Sadly, two of these options are "legacy" features and the remainder is renting from a landlord rather than striking out on your own. For some of the more independently minded industrialists this may be a bit stifling.
I'd either rectify those three issues, by reducing fuel consumption, reducing vulnerability windows and halving the number of rigs, or make a range of S-size personal use industrial structures that allow the small industrialist some small factories and labs of their own. I fully support the idea that the EC and the Citadel should be co-operative structures, but I also believe there should be more structures for the individual industrialist (who can still co-operate with others while using his own facility). An S-size facility could be torn down and moved easily if you relocate or wish to avoid exposure to a war dec, can have simple defence/destruction mechanics like the existing S-size structures, can have zero fuel requirements and a modest initial cost to reflect that only a maximum of 11 jobs could ever be installed in one (because that's the maximum any character can have). They would be everything an EC isn't and thus allow the EC to be what it is without excluding people from their desired industrial gameplay. |
Namdor
The Exchange Collective
73
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Posted - 2016.10.14 15:31:19 -
[22] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Well, you say everything is fine and scales, because you can use other people's facilities to compensate for the higher fuel and installation costs ... but why would somebody sane invite competitors who wreck the costs in that system?
There is a fundamental difference in how Citadels react to scale compared to EC. More people using citadel services -> better for everybody. More people using EC -> worse for everybody.
Sorry, but this particular objection doesn't really make sense. You're treating the cost index as if it's the sole variable of any importance.
They would want to do it if the taxes they can collect will exceed the delta in their own personal index cost. It's not a very tricky question. Index costs don't increase linearly - a relatively small increase in the index value requires a relatively large increase in job-hours (about 75% more job hours to go from 3% to 4%, say),
People already do large volumes of industry in relatively high index systems - this is demonstrably true, given the fact that high-index systems exist at all. Why would those people NOT prefer to do the manufacturing they're already doing in, say, Bahromab (~3.9% index) in an EC with an ME bonus that effectively offsets that index value, instead of doing it in an NPC station and just eating the cost? |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3014
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Posted - 2016.10.14 17:53:16 -
[23] - Quote
Assuming there are a lot of public ECs anchored ... otherwise a few worth considering will attract more people than from just one system, so better keep it closed circle ...
... and you say already 75% increase in jobs will push the index by 1% point ... this the difference between one and two chars doing production ...
Well, let's see what happens, new profits will be there as always if the environment is complex ... and hope it's not too tedious and kills the fun playing.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2461
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Posted - 2016.10.14 18:21:56 -
[24] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:
... and you say already 75% increase in jobs will push the index by 1% point ... this the difference between one and two chars doing production ...
No, that's the difference between 3% and 4%, not the amount to bump it by 1% at any value, so that would only be true if one character were sufficient to hit 3% to begin with, which it generally isn't, afaict. It would be easier to calculate the thresholds with an approximate value for the total number of job-hours installed in the universe, but I don't know of anywhere that's available.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3018
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Posted - 2016.10.14 20:22:29 -
[25] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:
... and you say already 75% increase in jobs will push the index by 1% point ... this the difference between one and two chars doing production ...
No, that's the difference between 3% and 4%, not the amount to bump it by 1% at any value, so that would only be true if one character were sufficient to hit 3% to begin with, which it generally isn't, afaict. It would be easier to calculate the thresholds with an approximate value for the total number of job-hours installed in the universe, but I don't know of anywhere that's available. Ok, right. I'm not so familiar with the exact formula, but I see that my industry activity regularly bumps the index in my system by 0.5-1% point starting from a similar baseline. This correlates just too well with my pauses and vacations, to be pure coincidence.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2461
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Posted - 2016.10.14 20:34:19 -
[26] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:
... and you say already 75% increase in jobs will push the index by 1% point ... this the difference between one and two chars doing production ...
No, that's the difference between 3% and 4%, not the amount to bump it by 1% at any value, so that would only be true if one character were sufficient to hit 3% to begin with, which it generally isn't, afaict. It would be easier to calculate the thresholds with an approximate value for the total number of job-hours installed in the universe, but I don't know of anywhere that's available. Ok, right. I'm not so familiar with the exact formula, but I see that my industry activity regularly bumps the index in my system by 0.5-1% point starting from a similar baseline. This correlates just too well with my pauses and vacations, to be pure coincidence.
It's Sqrt(SystemJobHoursInstalled/UniverseJobHoursInstalled) pretty much. So, index^2 is the rough percentage of job hours for the system. IIRC it's done as a running average over a week or so. The TL;DR is that an increasing index means an increasing number of job hours in the system to further raise the index.
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Francis Podkill
Podkill Consolidated
1
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Posted - 2016.10.15 05:35:09 -
[27] - Quote
Main issue with these are the ridiculous price tag compared to a POS. I can do invention/research and production in one single medium POS with nice bonusses (hyasyoda, thukker component, etc) and offline/online whatever I feel like.
a 5B complex is unable to match the functionality of a 300m tower.
When replacing something you should at leas aim to have the same feature set as what you're removing, then improving from there. What's happening now is when you compare Complex with POS:
- Features / bonusses removed - Price tag increased 7-30x - Fuel cost increased - Flexibility GREATLY reduced (pos deploys in an hour or so, ability to toggle modules removed)
Basicly CCP is proposing dropping pos without giving back a functioning alternative for small-med sized corps. |
Alicia Dnari
Dnari Mining and Manufacturing
7
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Posted - 2016.10.15 16:25:06 -
[28] - Quote
As one of the "smaller industrialists" I have to say that I could maybe put up a useful POS in high-sec. Maybe. If nobody blew it up. If I didn't try to keep it running all the time. If if ifGǪ
These other structures? No chance. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6464
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Posted - 2016.10.16 09:09:19 -
[29] - Quote
Alicia Dnari wrote:As one of the "smaller industrialists" I have to say that I could maybe put up a useful POS in high-sec. Maybe. If nobody blew it up. If I didn't try to keep it running all the time. If if ifGǪ
These other structures? No chance. I've got a pretty old large POS, at 5.75 years old, and I've no real idea what I'm going to do.
I might try an Astrahus with a research lab, or just stick to NPC stations. I don't see a future for me in an EC.
Re: EC asset safety, keep in mind that it isn't free, its 15%. |
Do Little
Virgin Plc Evictus.
447
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Posted - 2016.10.16 10:27:22 -
[30] - Quote
I have a small POS in highsec. The design lab justifies the cost in time savings for invention/copy jobs. I also have a couple of assembly arrays - ME bonus probably pays the fuel bill, I haven't crunched the numbers. Engineering Complexes in their current form have no place in the future of my highsec business - I'll use the POS until CCP removes it from the game and then work from an NPC station. For my nullsec alliance, on the other hand, EC's make perfect sense.
I don't see a lot of small industrialists moving to EC's owned by others unless CCP adds enforceable lease agreements to the game and I expect a lot of frustration if CCP tries to force us down that road. I don't see any need for a "small" Citadel but a small EC in the same price/functionality range as a small POS is something they should seriously consider - there are a lot of small industrial players in this game! |
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