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zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis AXIOS.
16
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Posted - 2016.10.13 00:57:27 -
[1] - Quote
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but looking back at our arguments and try to see how they hold up against reality: Quo Vadis Vehement?
Zkillboard counts 118 kills for the Vehement and 1 loss from its introduction to now, October 13th 2016, with a total of 4 different Vehement pilots (in case they are each others alts: sorry I don't know everyone yet). https://zkillboard.com/ship/42124/
113 of the 118 kills a Vehement was involved in, as well as the 1 loss, happened on August 28th in the Placid system of Harroule as part of a charity/awareness for Broadcast4Reps and Pew4Reps. The Vehement pilot was: Pippy Guna
3 of the 5 remaining involvements were NC. killing NC. in what looks like "Killboard look at me, I own a Vehement". The other two kills were two different pilots (LawrenceNewton/AAA and Project Mayhems Tau AD), killing a pod and Dominix. There might be some kills not registered with Zkillboard and surely there are more people who own one than those 4 pilots that used the ship in some pvpy way. As is true for any other ship though.
To conclude: 4 active pilots, 96% of kills as part of one charity event, outside of that probably 1-2 real kills. In other words: it seems to be not used. Introducing Faction Dreadnoughts was and is a good idea, but the lack of usage proves the need for change. The numbers for Dreads/Supers at the bottom of this post, suggest that EVE players are willing to throw in their pricey ships, for fun and profit and just because they can. But it seems the ship needs to make at least some sense in its role. A role that the Vehement still has to find.
Suggestions to CCP a) change the pricetag: The larger and more expensive subcapital ships get (frigate to battleship), the lower the percentual difference between prices for the respective t1 and faction version. Build prices for t1/faction frigs and cruisers are very equal and building faction battleships is even cheaper than the cheapest t1 bs. The value comes largely from the BPC. Following that logic, the Vehement build cost should either be lower or the same as any t1 dreadnought.
or not that much cheaper and:
b) give it a useful role It seems a base problem to lean to much or mix up the concepts of over-sized combat battlecruiser and faction cruiser. A dreadnought - which for arbitrary reasons - totally falls out of the pricerange of its brothers and sisters, should be a beast of its own kind: so give it some meaningful re-adjustment that gives it a special role, for instance: + emergency exit from Siege (10s) + give it a light fighter bay (heresy, i know) + bonus to weapon tracking or huge falloff + buff cap / cargo / active tanking (feel free to offer better ideas)
* Disclaimer: I have a BPC, but I couldn't fly any Dreadnought yet. (Willing to accept SP though.)
Below the numbers for other Dreads and Supercarriers (closest to price tag on Vehement) in the same time:
August to Mid-October:
Vehement: 1-2 kills, 0 losses (not counting the charity event on purpose)
Moros: 7546 kills; 306 losses Naglfar: 10478 kills; 402 losses Phoenix: 5810 kills; 170 losses Revelation: 6029 kills; 158 losses (average of 28.8 kills for each loss)
Aeon: 9019 kills; 10 kills; Hel: 5400 kills; 14 losses Nyx: 10953 kills; 41 losses Wyvern: 2900 kills; 11 losses (average of 372 kills for each loss)
Revenant (Faction Super): 695 kills, 0 losses (costs around as much as a Titan) Vendetta (Faction Super): 1 kill, 0 losses |
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
994
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Posted - 2016.10.13 02:24:46 -
[2] - Quote
i think the main drawback is the horrific 20x material cost over a regular Dread. this creates a logistical nightmare for the industrialists.
that and I could by two dread Alts, and regular dreads for them to fly, for the cost of one Vehement. i don't care how good the Vehement is, 2x regular dreads will dish out moar deeps and soak up moar damage.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Cade Windstalker
571
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Posted - 2016.10.13 03:08:10 -
[3] - Quote
I think people are looking at this wrong, including you OP.
The idea here isn't "lets make a thing to fill a role" it's "lets make this thing and see what the players do with it"
Seems like the price tag is basically to ensure that it doesn't get ridiculously out of control if CCP slip with a balancing lever and accidentally the capital meta. While you can't balance something long-term with cost it's decent short-term mitigation, and CCP can always fairly easily lower the price and refund materials to ship owners. If they raise the material cost of something then they're basically injecting free stuff into the economy, which isn't good for the game.
I'd also like to point out that it's only been about 2 months since the event ended and people tend to be a bit more adverse about risking new shiny things. Plus the place these seem most likely to show up is wormholes, and it'll take longer to get one built there because of the logistics involved. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
17896
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Posted - 2016.10.13 06:37:40 -
[4] - Quote
Its because they want you to buy more PLEX. They target those unreasonable people with unreasonable amount of kash.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1032
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Posted - 2016.10.13 07:44:39 -
[5] - Quote
CCP initially thought that capitals would be alliance level tools and not personal playthings for almost every null pilot to have and be able to acquire easily. Atm these things seem horribly overpriced but just give it time and history should repeat itself.
Also if overpriced items are any indication the last few years have shown more and more AT ships being tossed around in actual pvp both in and out of the AT itself. Eventually people will use them and then more and more will do so and they will die in fires and more will use them and more will be built.
Price isnt a factor, nor is usage this early in the game for these ships.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
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killerkeano
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
36
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Posted - 2016.10.13 09:48:48 -
[6] - Quote
They are simply just another ISK sink.
They serve zero purpose in a fleet.
Can pilot and buy two dreads for the cost on one faction dread.
Same for the super.
The titan from the costs I hear are involved you're talking the cost of 6-7 titans, which is of course pointless for just a Web Bonus.
They are just a shiny toy to say look how much isk I have nothing more.
Faction BS's however do serve a pupose, vindicators in incursion fleets, hundreds of machariels in alliance compositions are just two examples where with decent role bonus' they will be used. Of course build cost and availability of the BPC come into it, however its use plays a hugh part also. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
429
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Posted - 2016.10.13 10:02:50 -
[7] - Quote
With the new Rorqal command ships super exhumers, these should be a lot faster for the blue donut nullbears to build.
For everyone else, well... have fun.
A signature :o
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zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis AXIOS.
16
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Posted - 2016.10.14 18:15:35 -
[8] - Quote
killerkeano wrote:They are simply just another ISK sink.
They serve zero purpose in a fleet.
Can pilot and buy two dreads for the cost on one faction dread.
Same for the super.
The titan from the costs I hear are involved you're talking the cost of 6-7 titans, which is of course pointless for just a Web Bonus.
They are just a shiny toy to say look how much isk I have nothing more.
Faction BS's however do serve a pupose, vindicators in incursion fleets, hundreds of machariels in alliance compositions are just two examples where with decent role bonus' they will be used. Of course build cost and availability of the BPC come into it, however its use plays a hugh part also.
Exactly what I was thinking. Faction ships do need something that sets them apart from their T1 counterparts: both from player perspective and for lore reasons (wouldn't be my reason, but all the faction subcapitals present some kind of explanation, why the factions developed them).
What CCP did here was applying the subcapital Webstrength Bonus of the Gallente-Minmatar ships to a Capital ship, a Dreadnought to be precise. What they didn't do was adding the Falloff/Tracking bonus the subcapitals have.
Following the same logic, the next faction Dreadnoughts could be: - Python (Gallente/Caldari) with 200% Fighter Damage Bonus ... err right - *some name* (Minmatar/Gallente) with +50% warp speed and enough base speed to have a proper nano-dread - Demolisher (Minmatar/Amarr) with Webrage and Neut/Nos Bonus - would actually be nice and... - Cosmo (Gallente/Amarr) with +10 to Relic/Data Analyzers and Covert Ops Cloak
I guess I'm trying to say that to further the subcapital boni to capitals is not necessarily a good way to go. |
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