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Quintessen
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
513
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Posted - 2016.10.25 12:06:03 -
[151] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Don't need a ton of data to see a problem. Its only natural that...
This kind of statement is the start of a lot of wrong assumptions. The number of times it's been said that it's just common sense or a natural conclusion where the second part was just plain wrong is staggering. There's a reason that scientific study doesn't work this way. There's a reason governmental institutions are data-driven. Why large-scale companies are data-driven. Individual pattern recognition is often wrong because we can't see the whole picture and our life experiences color our decisions.
So you'll excuse me if I wait to see actual data on this. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18365
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Posted - 2016.10.25 16:56:32 -
[152] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Don't need a ton of data to see a problem. Its only natural that... This kind of statement is the start of a lot of wrong assumptions. The number of times it's been said that it's just common sense or a natural conclusion where the second part was just plain wrong is staggering. There's a reason that scientific study doesn't work this way. There's a reason governmental institutions are data-driven. Why large-scale companies are data-driven. Individual pattern recognition is often wrong because we can't see the whole picture and our life experiences color our decisions. So you'll excuse me if I wait to see actual data on this.
Didn't need data sets to see the svipul was going to be a problem or that remote doomsdays were a bad idea. You can simply look at a bonus and see if its going to be an issue or not right off the bat. This is one of those bonuses that is clearly a problem right from the start.
Even just looking at zkill shows exactly what I am talking about, most ganks are on a station, all of them random attacks. You tell me, are you safer as a BR with an empty hold when gankers can select targets with valuable cargo or when gankers have to just randomly attack? |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
878
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Posted - 2016.10.25 19:23:33 -
[153] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Didn't need data sets to see the svipul was going to be a problem or that remote doomsdays were a bad idea. You can simply look at a bonus and see if its going to be an issue or not right off the bat. This is one of those bonuses that is clearly a problem right from the start.
Even just looking at zkill shows exactly what I am talking about, most ganks are on a station, all of them random attacks. You tell me, are you safer as a BR with an empty hold when gankers can select targets with valuable cargo or when gankers have to just randomly attack?
Think the issue these people are getting lucky. They are getting the less adventurous gankers who let them live. They won't see the point. Up until my stupid attack the long life of my BR was based on, as you mentioned a few times, using it like an inty. Inty with a CO cloak lol. Fast aligns, fast warp, fast everything. Click the mouse fast enough, server tick gods favor you and you see the CO cloak animation race against the gate decloak animation lol.
Stories of where this bonus works seem to have a trend. Cargo fit BR's. Here I think is the issue. A varying opinion of how to fit BR's. I asked when young and low sp how do I fit my BR guys to corpmates. Being in a 0.0 home they said make that fish as slippery as you can. 0.0 won't give you a scan break on a camp. Nor will low sec people looking to catch you on runs to/from empire.
Also why we won't get a good data call probably. Someone posted Fozzie's statement on this. Data they used for a decision seems off here to me as BR's were balanced on empire bear use apparently (inb4 bear as a slur comment...I am one currently, but I used to PVP and yes...you empire only peeps do things differently to put it as nicely as I can). Usually not the best way to balance things really.
BR's used out of empire as well. For the low sp players with no caps...or hell with caps but no JF's BR's are how we move stuff. Low sp player the whole route to/from out of empire and empire can be BR'd. the cap but no jf pilot....br to the low sec drop-off near empire. A bonus given here of no value to out of empire use.
I go to tama in a br, they have an instalock up or bad things happen....I go boom. Decloaked in a drag, dps on gate....I go boom. Wh'ers not liking me using their wormhole as a quick detour, they catch me...I go boom.
3 sections of eve kill first,, see what's in wreck later without fail, question or hesitation. . Why to me this bonus makes no sense. |
Quintessen
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
514
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Posted - 2016.10.25 21:45:48 -
[154] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Didn't need data sets to see the svipul was going to be a problem or that remote doomsdays were a bad idea. You can simply look at a bonus and see if its going to be an issue or not right off the bat. This is one of those bonuses that is clearly a problem right from the start.
Even just looking at zkill shows exactly what I am talking about, most ganks are on a station, all of them random attacks. You tell me, are you safer as a BR with an empty hold when gankers can select targets with valuable cargo or when gankers have to just randomly attack?
For every time the crowd gets one right there are dozens they get wrong. Pointing to past successes is like pointing to times you rolled 7 after the fact and pointing out the dice frequently roll seven.
And, yes, I looked at zKill when this conversation started and it still doesn't tell you how many people didn't shoot because they weren't guaranteed a good score. Under your logic BRs should never make it through any gank setup at a gate in high sec, but I know, for a fact, that they do. Uncertainty may not stop you from risking it, but it certainly stops a lot of people. How many? We don't know because we don't have any data on this. So, you'll pardon me if I wait. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18367
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Posted - 2016.10.26 04:46:18 -
[155] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:
For every time the crowd gets one right there are dozens they get wrong. Pointing to past successes is like pointing to times you rolled 7 after the fact and pointing out the dice frequently roll seven.
Actually they seem to break even.
Quintessen wrote:
And, yes, I looked at zKill when this conversation started and it still doesn't tell you how many people didn't shoot because they weren't guaranteed a good score. Under your logic BRs should never make it through any gank setup at a gate in high sec, but I know, for a fact, that they do. Uncertainty may not stop you from risking it, but it certainly stops a lot of people. How many? We don't know because we don't have any data on this. So, you'll pardon me if I wait.
You don't understand what I am saying. I'm not saying every BR will get ganked, I am saying empty BR are put at much higher risk because of this bonus. Empty BR are now at just high a risk of being ganked as BR with 100 billion in the hold because of this bonus. You don't need data to see this, its very simple logic. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
203
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Posted - 2016.10.26 09:09:16 -
[156] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:This is all true.
It is way better gameplay if piracy targets imprudent haulers than by chance. It isn't good gameplay to force pirates to explode targets at random instead of hunting, stalking and killing targets that have loaded excessive amounts in their hauler.
Random kills do not incentivize smart, cautious play. It instead makes getting exploded into a game of chance where there is little one can do to protect their ship and cargo.
The game would benefit from more ways to select profitable piracy targets, not less. As for blockade runners, it does seem like it is a pretty redundant bonus. A properly piloted BR should never be scanned in the first place. I do like the sentiment behind the unique bonus however, I just wish there was actually a game mechanic (like smuggling) that made it useful. As it is, it probably results in more BRs being exploded than it saves.
Stop shooting BRs. Stick to shooting haulers you can scan. Its still a game of chance because you have to find someone to shoot, and that is the chance or dice roll.
Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
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Quintessen
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
514
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Posted - 2016.10.26 13:50:57 -
[157] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You don't understand what I am saying. I'm not saying every BR will get ganked, I am saying empty BR are put at much higher risk because of this bonus. Empty BR are now at just high a risk of being ganked as BR with 100 billion in the hold because of this bonus. You don't need data to see this, its very simple logic.
I do understand what you're saying. I have from the beginning. You're trying to protect the ship and I'm trying to protect the cargo. The odds are the same of the BR getting blown up regardless. But the odds also seem to be less than a non-BR industrial carrying the same 100B in the hold, partially because of the bonus. If someone knows I have 100B in the hold, I'm going to get ganked. Even the newbie is going to take a shot for 100B. But if they can't know what I have, then there are going to be a certain number of people who never take the shot making it more likely that my 100B of stuff survives.
The ship's job is to protect the cargo from point A to point B. If scan immunity makes the cargo significantly more likely to survive compared to another industrial where the gankers would know, then the bonus is totally worth it. Even at the cost of some empty BRs. I don't mind losing a few empty ones. It makes it more likely they'll question whether it's even worth it. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18367
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Posted - 2016.10.26 16:23:56 -
[158] - Quote
Quintessen wrote: I do understand what you're saying. I have from the beginning. You're trying to protect the ship and I'm trying to protect the cargo. The odds are the same of the BR getting blown up regardless. But the odds also seem to be less than a non-BR industrial carrying the same 100B in the hold, partially because of the bonus. If someone knows I have 100B in the hold, I'm going to get ganked. Even the newbie is going to take a shot for 100B. But if they can't know what I have, then there are going to be a certain number of people who never take the shot making it more likely that my 100B of stuff survives.
This argument brings us back to content being removed from highsec which is also a bad thing.
Quintessen wrote: The ship's job is to protect the cargo from point A to point B.
No that's the pilots job, CCP should not be doing this for you.
Quintessen wrote: If scan immunity makes the cargo significantly more likely to survive compared to another industrial where the gankers would know, then the bonus is totally worth it.
Its not though, they are randomly attacking targets now so everyone is at greater risk
Quintessen wrote: Even at the cost of some empty BRs. I don't mind losing a few empty ones. It makes it more likely they'll question whether it's even worth it.
They arn't. As I said they are breaking even and with the income made from the other targets that they can scan they are still making money so they can gank BR forever. You are ******* over every other BR runner so that you can get skill and effort free scan immunity on a ship that if flown well cant be scanned in the first place.
What you are saying here is that you need CCP to play the game for you because you are too inept to do it for yourself and you don't care that you are negatively impacting every other BR around you and negatively impacting the pirates targeting you. |
Quintessen
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
514
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Posted - 2016.10.26 18:14:52 -
[159] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:This argument brings us back to content being removed from highsec which is also a bad thing.
We're going to have to agree to disagree there. There are plenty of people to gank. It's easy enough to turn this around and say it's making content for the gankers because now they actually have to figure out who is worth ganking other ways.
baltec1 wrote:No that's the pilots job, CCP should not be doing this for you.
This argument is basically saying that ship choice doesn't matter. Of course it's also the pilot's job to protect the cargo, but which ship I choose to fly is part of that equation.
baltec1 wrote:Its not though, they are randomly attacking targets now so everyone is at greater risk
Again, no data.
baltec1 wrote:They arn't. As I said they are breaking even and with the income made from the other targets that they can scan they are still making money so they can gank BR forever. You are ******* over every other BR runner so that you can get skill and effort free scan immunity on a ship that if flown well cant be scanned in the first place.
What you are saying here is that you need CCP to play the game for you because you are too inept to do it for yourself and you don't care that you are negatively impacting every other BR around you and negatively impacting the pirates targeting you.
Your argument here is getting somewhat incomprehensible. First, it's a meaningless bonus, then it's such a good bonus it's not me playing, it CCP. Then you're implying that people who fly BRs and benefit from the bonus are inept?
At this point it just seems like your frustrated that you can't know if a BR is worth ganking. That's the point. Denial of intelligence is something that organizations strive for. It's not random chance, it's the BR pilot picking that hull because it denies the enemy intelligence about their operation. So the ganker is left randomly ganking BRs rather than what the real prize might be. And if the ganker becomes so consistent in their ganking of BRs, that fact itself becomes a useful tool to clear a gate camp right before the real target goes through. If I wanted to move several hundred billion ISK through more safely, I would fly a dozen or so BRs near the same point so that the gankers don't know which one has the actual cargo. That planning is content for the BR pilots. That planning is outsmarting your enemy -- a very EVE thing. You can try and spin denial of intelligence as counter to what EVE is about or that it's not a strategy, but I think most people will realize that it's actually quite a useful tool to have.
An aside: A ship that does nothing is meaningful is always safe.
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
389
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Posted - 2016.10.26 18:20:47 -
[160] - Quote
Quintessen wrote: Denial of intelligence is something that organizations strive for. It's not random chance, it's the BR pilot picking that hull because it denies the enemy intelligence about their operation. So the ganker is left randomly ganking BRs rather than what the real prize might be. And if the ganker becomes so consistent in their ganking of BRs, that fact itself becomes a useful tool to clear a gate camp right before the real target goes through. If I wanted to move several hundred billion ISK through more safely, I would fly a dozen or so BRs near the same point so that the gankers don't know which one has the actual cargo. That planning is content for the BR pilots. That planning is outsmarting your enemy -- a very EVE thing. You can try and spin denial of intelligence as counter to what EVE is about or that it's not a strategy, but I think most people will realize that it's actually quite a useful tool to have.
You are my new hero.
--Gadget also loves the shell game
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
204
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Posted - 2016.10.27 04:06:37 -
[161] - Quote
If the pilots job is to protect cargo and not the ships job, why do ships have armor values? Why not just have detachable bubbles on a space crane that you can just rip off with a tractor?
Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
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Mark Marconi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
55
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Posted - 2016.10.27 07:13:05 -
[162] - Quote
Seriously they should remove cargo scanners. Turn ganking into a gamble.
Then it is actually a risk vs reward. rather than a small loss vs a huge gain. |
oiukhp Muvila
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
125
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Posted - 2016.10.27 10:56:19 -
[163] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote:Seriously they should remove cargo scanners. Turn ganking into a gamble.
Then it is actually a risk vs reward. rather than a small loss vs a huge gain.
Too many gankers would complain because they have gotten used to ganking on easy mode.
The biggest issue is that the losses to the ganker are trivial and frequently re-imbursed, and the losses to the ganked can be quite a bit even though they can frequently afford it.
Its a win win for the ganker in regard to the Isk exchance and content creation at the expense of the ganked who loses in both accounts with little reasonable recourse. It really is just grief-play.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
209
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Posted - 2016.10.28 04:19:44 -
[164] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote:Seriously they should remove cargo scanners. Turn ganking into a gamble.
Then it is actually a risk vs reward. rather than a small loss vs a huge gain.
Suicide gankers DO like their carebear-safe ganking mechanics. To make it risky for them would make them quit the game, and we don't want carebears to quit, do we?
Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
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