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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1669
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Posted - 2016.10.16 09:17:41 -
[31] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Capsuleers - some of the most powerful people in the world - whining that they aren't the absolute most powerful?
People with power generally do not like to share.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
1701
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Posted - 2016.10.16 09:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:I suspect we'll learn more from the Society on this front, if the Sisters were attempting to sidestep potential oversight from them.
There's an angle here. The SOCT claim to be the inheritors of the Jovian legacy. And of course, the successor to the Jovians in terms of... guarding dangerous technology.
Now, what we know of the Jovians, is that their misuse of genetic engineering and cloning, somehow led to the Jovian Disease.
If there's something about this new technology that is dangerous, and may result long-term in an equivalent to the Jovian Disease, then... well, it's obvious why the SoE wouldn't want the SOCT to know about it beforehand. The SOCT would have said "It's too dangerous for you children".
And the SoE probably believe this dangerous technology is necessary to do.... something. Possibly involving the Drifters, and countering the Drifter Menace.
Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the old Takmahl Device, in terms of producing large amounts of cloned bodies on the cheap. Fill it up with planktonic biomass, press button, and et voila, as the Gallente would say. Clones. Thousands of 'em.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
210
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Posted - 2016.10.16 10:57:53 -
[33] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:While I am less suspicious about the motives of the SOE, Concord demonstrates again it's primary function is just as a police force to contain capsuleers. Good.
Matar Ronin wrote:Concord has not demonstrated to me that is functions with the best interests of capsuleers in mind. Subsequently I do not readily accept them as knowing what is best for capsuleers. Keeping them out of the loop proves they are not essential. Arguing otherwise is just arguing.
When Concord proves otherwise I will revise my position, until then, I await them proving their current value to capsuleers. When they do I will be happy, until they do I won't hold my breath. I hope CONCORD never meets your approval. |
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
674
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Posted - 2016.10.16 13:52:57 -
[34] - Quote
We should make total war upon the Sisters of EVE worlds. Not one brick left upon another; not one blade of grass left standing. They have sown the wind and shall reap the whirlwind. |
Kybernetes Moros
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
14
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Posted - 2016.10.16 14:15:13 -
[35] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the old Takmahl Device, in terms of producing large amounts of cloned bodies on the cheap. Fill it up with planktonic biomass, press button, and et voila, as the Gallente would say. Clones. Thousands of 'em.
That always was a good idea from the Takmahl--and it certainly works well enough for a certain Nation to roll a comparable system out on a grand scale.
What I do find interesting, though, is that the Takmahl were and the Nation are exceedingly good at preventing any loose cannons coming out of the process. Biodroid controllers, command signal receivers, and all those other ingenious gadgets come to mind.
The "Big Four", on the other hand, are more squeamish about that sort of thing--or claim to be, at least. The TCMC can do wonders, and the big-"e" Empire did have more than a passing interest in the Master's first designs, but I suspect to an audience that the little-"e" empires would decry the heavy-duty intervention we like so much to be a very bad thing.
"Expanding the pool of viable candidates for naval capsuleer recruitment" could quickly turn into a lot of wilful clones getting hurled back into the vats until they stumble upon a suitable mindset (effective but controversial!), or a lot of capsuleers who--like many of us--decided on being let loose that the guys that trained them really weren't the best fit in the long run (exciting but risky!). |
Matar Ronin
2185
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Posted - 2016.10.16 16:34:37 -
[36] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:While I am less suspicious about the motives of the SOE, Concord demonstrates again it's primary function is just as a police force to contain capsuleers. Good. Matar Ronin wrote:Concord has not demonstrated to me that is functions with the best interests of capsuleers in mind. Subsequently I do not readily accept them as knowing what is best for capsuleers. Keeping them out of the loop proves they are not essential. Arguing otherwise is just arguing.
When Concord proves otherwise I will revise my position, until then, I await them proving their current value to capsuleers. When they do I will be happy, until they do I won't hold my breath. I hope CONCORD never meets your approval. Could you perhaps list the top twenty things Concord actually does to earn your approval sir?
I am from the "question authority school" of thought when it comes to gaining, expanding, and keeping freedom and liberty, I fully understand many other posters here on IGS come from the "grovel at the feet of those in power school" of thought willing just to maintain the status quo no matter how unjust or evil it may be.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
605
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Posted - 2016.10.16 17:35:04 -
[37] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:Bizarre. The Sisters of EVE evidently have such a strong desire to increase the number of capsuleers in New Eden that they gave the technology to all four empires, then did not tell them the others had it. This naturally drove the governments of each to attempt to press their 'advantage' and rapidly move forward with new capsuleer programs to get the upper-hand on their rivals. Now, it is revealed all four empires are on exactly equal footing still. This basically did CONCORD's job of enforcing technological parity for them.
What could the Sisters possibly gain from this? Another possibility is that one nation stole or acquired it from the Sisters and they were forced to release to all to cover their tracks or prevent casting a die in an arms race. Of course, it could also be in an effort to increase our chances in open war against the Drifter as is feared. What is odd is how public the Empress was about advances in cloning before this became public via CONCORD and the SoE.
"What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you." - Empress Jamyl I
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
1702
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Posted - 2016.10.16 17:50:34 -
[38] - Quote
Kybernetes Moros wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the old Takmahl Device, in terms of producing large amounts of cloned bodies on the cheap. Fill it up with planktonic biomass, press button, and et voila, as the Gallente would say. Clones. Thousands of 'em. That always was a good idea from the Takmahl--and it certainly works well enough for a certain Nation to roll a comparable system out on a grand scale.
Well, hello stranger.
How have you been, Dr. Moros ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Matar Ronin
2186
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Posted - 2016.10.16 18:31:58 -
[39] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Mr. Ronin;
At present, my only worry is that this was very specifically an attempt to curry favor at the expense of the Society.
And let's be honest. While there are murmurings about the Society, the Sisters have obviously and very directly been involved in the last several years' happenings: Sisters-developed implants recovered from FTL research sites operated by non-CONCORD signatories, Sanctuary colonization of a hitherto-unreachable wormhole system, Sisters-administered analysis of Drifter and Jove tissue samples with Inferno-style, Drifter-developed boosters given as the reward, and even their continued silent presence in the Drifter Hive systems.
Now, they give the empires a new, more robust cloning methodology, while bypassing the organizations who might be best equipped to analyze the risks or dangers of that technology?
Fascinating. Pilot Priano; As usual your concerns are based in what I perceive to be realistic possible origins. Like you I shall keep an eye open to see which track might eventually be proven correct.
I do not have the benefit of access to some of the levels of interaction you seem to have with some of these powerful groups so I listen intently when you make statements and post concerns. Something I think reasonable people should do even if they disagree with your conclusions.
While I publicly stated I indeed am am less concerned with the motives of the SOE that does not imply I am proposing a "Hall Pass" for them or any other powerful group in New Eden. Some groups because of my individual biases start off with more trust, but all groups, governments, and organizations are subject to objective verification. What they do must actually benefit humanity in the New Eden Cluster, that is my standard litmus test , and I do my best to uniformly apply it to all.
I believe we all live in dangerous times, yesterday's bitter nemesis may prove to be tomorrow's crucial ally. A man far wiser than me once said, "I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." I will stand will all those willing to protect the future of humanity in the New Eden Cluster current politics or current religious beliefs aside.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2530
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Posted - 2016.10.16 22:55:23 -
[40] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:What is odd is how public the Empress was about advances in cloning before this became public via CONCORD and the SoE.
Well, CONCORD had been 'openly' discussing 'new cloning technology' with the Empires and the Council for Stellar Management, as detailed in a Scope video some weeks ago. |
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Jason Galente
Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai
811
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Posted - 2016.10.16 23:17:18 -
[41] - Quote
The misery that capsuleers can inflict on others is mostly a function of those people not having access to clones themselves, whilst the power of being able to clone yourself also creates immeasurable good and progress. Seems to me like the logical conclusion is to try to make it so that nearly everyone can become a capsuleer, and propel humanity forward as quickly as possible.
Either that, or ban the capsule entirely. But this current era of capsuleer elitism needed to end at some point.
CONCORD is too timid and conservative to work on that? SOE did it for them.
And I think Aldrith has a very good point too.. SOE would've been the entity I'd think least likely to do this, and given their recent work, they must know something about a looming threat that we do not. I have noticed, at least in my experiences, that the Drifters we fought started to.. learn. Rapidly. Posing a challenge even to a much larger capsuleer fleet with the proper equipment, where no such challenge had previously existed with the same pilots and ships. I'm sure it was just a sampling size fluke.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Jason Galente
Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai
811
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Posted - 2016.10.16 23:20:32 -
[42] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:While I am less suspicious about the motives of the SOE, Concord demonstrates again it's primary function is just as a police force to contain capsuleers. Good.
Who watches the watchmen?
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2532
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Posted - 2016.10.17 04:23:29 -
[43] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote:Who watches the watchmen?
The real question is: who watches whoever watches who watches the watchmen? |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1671
|
Posted - 2016.10.17 04:33:24 -
[44] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Jason Galente wrote:Who watches the watchmen? The real question is: who watches whoever watches who watches the watchmen?
Quoting the standard Amarr preacher: 'God'.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
18108
|
Posted - 2016.10.17 08:02:08 -
[45] - Quote
SOE needs more researchers for its army of cytoplasm spotters.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Jesse Edwin Davis
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2016.10.17 12:17:20 -
[46] - Quote
Good news everyone!
Illegal cloning everywhere - no one cares. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2486
|
Posted - 2016.10.17 14:32:59 -
[47] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Jason Galente wrote:Who watches the watchmen? The real question is: who watches whoever watches who watches the watchmen?
To either question: Probably not us?
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
214
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Posted - 2016.10.18 05:00:12 -
[48] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Could you perhaps list the top twenty things Concord actually does to earn your approval sir? Mostly it's what they have chosen to do with their layer of control over pod firmware and pod Neocom software. 1. Outside of Duster-directed orbital strikes, CONCORD is why we can't even target anything on a random planet. If it weren't for this, capsuleers would be bombarding planets left and right. 2. Preventing capsuleers from bombarding planets arbitrarily. 3. Preventing capsuleers from shooting at planets arbitrarily. 4. Preventing capsuleers from crashing their ships into planets. 5. Preventing capsuleers from throwing asteroids at planets. 6. Preventing capsuleers from directly dropping arbitrary objects into atmospheres. 7. Preventing capsuleers from directly introducing arbitrary gases into atmospheres. 8. Preventing capsuleers from shooting at planets. 9. Preventing capsuleers from shooting at planets. 10. Preventing capsuleers from shooting at planets. 11. Preventing capsuleers from destroying deadspace structures except those authorized for destruction by CONCORD or an empire. 12. CONCORD omits most civilian space traffic from our overviews. 13. CONCORD's retribution limits the viable ganking tactics in highsec. If they didn't, more crewpeople would die in highsec and it would be easier to kill larger crews. 14. CONCORD prevents capsuleer-operated capital ships from entering highsec. If they didn't, the scale of highsec war among capsuleers would be larger in terms of lives committed and lives lost. 15. The addition of safety settings to the Neocom software helps protect crews from pilot error. 16. Regulation and mediation of the interstellar economy, which prevents some types of irregularity that would harm baseliner economies. 17. A CONCORD subcommittee keeps the fluid router network standardized. They regulate FTL comms and enforce those regulations so that corporations managing FTL comm services have to provide their clients at least a basic level of security and privacy and have to advertise their services truthfully. 18. DED's tracking of pirate activity in deadspace lets civilian traffic avoid those danger spots more often than not. 19. In order for forces from one empire to invade another empire outside the CEMWPA-designated areas, they have to bypass CONCORD safeguards against exactly that. This bypassing has been accomplished more than once, but it's better than nothing - it may have discouraged other attempts. 20. Although I resent the CEMWPA wars because of the many lives that are thrown away for them, their ongoing existence serves as a pressure release valve for the regular tensions between the empires. Currently it's probably either this or all-out war, and I do believe all-out war would be worse.
I am skeptical of authority, too, but I'm not blind to the possibility of flawed authorities providing good things. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1674
|
Posted - 2016.10.18 06:03:34 -
[49] - Quote
However, CONCORD does not recognise ANY pleas of self-defense. Ever. That's my biggest beef with CONCORD.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
217
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Posted - 2016.10.18 07:01:19 -
[50] - Quote
Mine is that when they just destroy the ship, the retribution is falling mainly (and lethally) on the crew, who are not responsible for the pilot's actions, while the capsuleer usually only loses what they planned to lose and can afford to lose. CONCORD should at least pod the capsuleer. Better, they should set up a backdoor in the firmware that lets them force the pod to eject from the ship and then destroy the pod while leaving the ship alone (but scrammed) long enough for all crew to escape. |
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Karina Ivanovich
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
224
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Posted - 2016.10.18 07:11:29 -
[51] - Quote
As I have stated on multiple occasions, CONCORD is an obsolete service that hinders the progress of the Empires more than it Polices the Capsuleer populace. I for one think that CONCORD should only focus on Imperians and leave the Empires alone.
Some call me insane. If the universe is sane, then I embrace that label.
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1675
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Posted - 2016.10.18 07:27:05 -
[52] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Mine is that when they just destroy the ship, the retribution is falling mainly (and lethally) on the crew, who are not responsible for the pilot's actions, while the capsuleer usually only loses what they planned to lose and can afford to lose. CONCORD should at least pod the capsuleer. Better, they should set up a backdoor in the firmware that lets them force the pod to eject from the ship and then destroy the pod while leaving the ship alone (but scrammed) long enough for all crew to escape.
CONCORD is efficient at punishment but their policies are arse backwards.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Matar Ronin
2228
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Posted - 2016.10.18 08:21:48 -
[53] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Could you perhaps list the top twenty things Concord actually does to earn your approval sir? Mostly it's what they have chosen to do with their layer of control over pod firmware and pod Neocom software. 1. Outside of Duster-directed orbital strikes, CONCORD is why we can't even target anything on a random planet. If it weren't for this, capsuleers would be bombarding planets left and right. 2. Preventing capsuleers from bombarding planets arbitrarily. 3. Preventing capsuleers from shooting at planets arbitrarily. 4. Preventing capsuleers from crashing their ships into planets. 5. Preventing capsuleers from throwing asteroids at planets. 6. Preventing capsuleers from directly dropping arbitrary objects into atmospheres. 7. Preventing capsuleers from directly introducing arbitrary gases into atmospheres. 8. Preventing capsuleers from shooting at planets. 9. Preventing capsuleers from shooting at planets. 10. Preventing capsuleers from shooting at planets. 11. Preventing capsuleers from destroying deadspace structures except those authorized for destruction by CONCORD or an empire. 12. CONCORD omits most civilian space traffic from our overviews. 13. CONCORD's retribution limits the viable ganking tactics in highsec. If they didn't, more crewpeople would die in highsec and it would be easier to kill larger crews. 14. CONCORD prevents capsuleer-operated capital ships from entering highsec. If they didn't, the scale of highsec war among capsuleers would be larger in terms of lives committed and lives lost. 15. The addition of safety settings to the Neocom software helps protect crews from pilot error. 16. Regulation and mediation of the interstellar economy, which prevents some types of irregularity that would harm baseliner economies. 17. A CONCORD subcommittee keeps the fluid router network standardized. They regulate FTL comms and enforce those regulations so that corporations managing FTL comm services have to provide their clients at least a basic level of security and privacy and have to advertise their services truthfully. 18. DED's tracking of pirate activity in deadspace lets civilian traffic avoid those danger spots more often than not. 19. In order for forces from one empire to invade another empire outside the CEMWPA-designated areas, they have to bypass CONCORD safeguards against exactly that. This bypassing has been accomplished more than once, but it's better than nothing - it may have discouraged other attempts. 20. Although I resent the CEMWPA wars because of the many lives that are thrown away for them, their ongoing existence serves as a pressure release valve for the regular tensions between the empires. Currently it's probably either this or all-out war, and I do believe all-out war would be worse. I am skeptical of authority, too, but I'm not blind to the possibility of flawed authorities providing good things. Clearly even you a fan of Concord could not list twenty things they do. Your list, entertaining as it is, repeated several points, and credited Concord for stopping things we don't have the technology to do.
How would you drag an asteroid to a planet to drop it? You can't and not because of Concord.
How would you gas a planet? You can't because your ship doesn't fly in atmospheres and you don't have gas guns or bombs, not because of Concord.
Concord doesn't limit "viable" ganks, whatever the heck that means, in high sec they simply show up after the fact to destroy the throw away ship of the ganker, who doesn't care at that point because he's already done the deed. Destroying the gank ship is just economic policy causing the ganker to spend a little more isk to continue their fun.
Lives lost in low sec and null sec are no less important than lives in high sec so your point about Capital ships being banned is strange. Capital ships are banned from high sec to keep the big four from waging hot wars easily. Capsuleers being banned is just a byproduct.
Since you claim you don't see civilian traffic how do you know DED is directing them away from pirate activity? Crediting them for your imagination or hopes does not cut it.
By the way you are flat out wrong on number 12 but I am just kicking you while you are down. We can see civilian traffic on our overview, perhaps you did not know that.
Concord is not the hero organization many people think it is, Concord is here to destroy capsuleers who cross some specific lines. The facts prove that.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1676
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Posted - 2016.10.18 08:38:25 -
[54] - Quote
However, capsuleer vessels, are capable of orbital bombardment, even without a beacon. This has already been recorded in the first Battle for Caldari Prime during the eve of the Gallente-Caldari War and was reported to have happened during the Battle for Pike's Landing in Amamake. By Dreadnought-class vessels at that.
The only reason why we can't go around bombarding planets without receiving a beacon signal from the ground, especially by clone mercenaries, was due to the option being disabled in our starship operating system. This operating system is distributed to all capsuleers via their capsule. In all likelihood this was due to CONCORD regulations.
Also, you didn't address why capsuleers are unable to direct their ships into planets. Again, the OS is programmed to disable that option and to automatically halt the ship from going too close to any gravity well to initiate a crash. Again, CONCORD regulations.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
218
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Posted - 2016.10.18 09:36:49 -
[55] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Clearly even you a fan of Concord could not list twenty things they do. Your list, entertaining as it is, repeated several points Those points were worth repeating. I will admit that CONCORD doesn't do twenty different things, but some of the things they do are extremely important and extremely beneficial.
"How would you drag an asteroid to a planet to drop it? You can't and not because of Concord." - This point is fair enough.
"How would you gas a planet? You can't because your ship doesn't fly in atmospheres and you don't have gas guns or bombs, not because of Concord." - You could drop containers of gas into the atmosphere designed to unseal at the optimal point in their descent to disperse the gas. #7 was really just a variation of #6.
"Concord doesn't limit "viable" ganks, whatever the heck that means, in high sec they simply show up after the fact to destroy the throw away ship of the ganker, who doesn't care at that point because he's already done the deed. Destroying the gank ship is just economic policy causing the ganker to spend a little more isk to continue their fun." - Sorry, did that word not translate? If CONCORD didn't respond to ganks in any way, they would happen a lot more frequently (the fact they're already frequent only makes that a worse outlook) and ganking larger, tankier ships (with larger crews) would be easier.
"Lives lost in low sec and null sec are no less important than lives in high sec" - This is true. But, the majority of non-criminal civilian population is in highsec.
"Since you claim you don't see civilian traffic how do you know DED is directing them away from pirate activity? Crediting them for your imagination or hopes does not cut it." - Because I actually talk to baseliners. A lot of baseliners. Regularly.
"We can see civilian traffic on our overview, perhaps you did not know that." - Some. Not all.
"Concord is here to destroy capsuleers who cross some specific lines. The facts prove that." - They don't actually destroy the capsuleers themselves, unfortunately.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2539
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Posted - 2016.10.18 18:51:57 -
[56] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:I will admit that CONCORD doesn't do twenty different things, but some of the things they do are extremely important and extremely beneficial.
Elmund Egivand wrote:Again, CONCORD regulations.
That's speculation, Elmund. We don't actually know what CONCORD regulations say.
We have no idea what CONCORD does and doesn't do. We don't know what they're legally authorized to do. We don't know what CONCORD regulations actually prohibit and what they've simply 'convinced' people to disable when building pods. We don't even know if CONCORD is actually empowered to issue directives to the Empires that they are required to comply withGÇöwho is the actual sovereign power? The Empires, or CONCORD?
We don't know.
We don't know because again, we don't actually have access to the documents that created CONCORD or which govern its operations. We don't even have access to the documents CONCORD issues to govern our interactions. We only have the 'tl;dr' version they see fit to give us.
We cannot evaluate CONCORD, we cannot critque CONCORD, and we cannot trust CONCORD without access to the full text of the Yulai Conventions, and CONCORD's operational directives, both internal, and with regard to Capsuleers.
We simply cannot. Any claims of knowledge beyond 'CONCORD shows up and shoots you if you shoot someone else' are pure guesswork. We must demand the release of those documents. Until they are released, CONCORD is an illegitimate tyranny. |
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