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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
8746
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Posted - 2016.10.16 19:00:20 -
[1] - Quote
Pilots;
The ScopeGÇÖs recent report on Sisters of EVE cloning advancements has left us with a wealth of questions: how was this developed? Does it rely on recovered Sleeper or Drifter technology? What are the technical merits of the technology? Is it compatible with existing cloning technology? Why was it shared freely with the Empires, but not via standard CONCORD channels? Does the Society have access to this technology, and has it had time to analyze it?
With these new questions, we are still faced with the simple truth that the Sisters of EVE have not reliably shared information about their actions, actions which may have severe repercussions for the cluster at large. We still know little about the events leading up to the discovery and colonization of Thera, or what the Sisters have learned about the Sleepers, Drifters, or CarolineGÇÖs Star, much less how they learned it.
To address this issue, on the assumption that the Sisters have not engaged in technology sharing with the Society, we ask CONCORD to use Directive Alpha Gamma 12 with this specific aim: expand the technology sharing directive to include the Society of Conscious Thought.
Previously, it was no doubt not necessary to concern the assembly with the Jove Empire, as Jove technology was widely considered to beyond the capabilities of other empires. While the Society is the recipient of Jove knowledge and is not known as a military power in the cluster, we do not know the limit of Society technology, but have full faith that their ingenuity and investment in technologies advanced by the Jove will merit their inclusion, and will provide the cluster a better understanding of the merits and drawbacks of the SistersGÇÖ novel cloning methodology.
In service, Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Matias Kurovassi
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.10.17 05:59:26 -
[2] - Quote
What if the Society always had access to the particular cloning technology and the SSoE just wanted a means to ensure its dissemination without Society/CONCORD interference by playing to signatory self-interest? |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
8749
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Posted - 2016.10.17 06:07:58 -
[3] - Quote
A possibility, sure, but I will admit that I am, personally, past the point of assigning glorious nobility to Sister intentions when it deals with advanced technology.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Matias Kurovassi
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.10.17 07:31:39 -
[4] - Quote
I am not assigning any nobility to the actions of the SSoE as regards their proliferation of clone technology. In fact, what they did could be considered positively underhanded. The Jove Empire and now its successor, the Society, are the only CONCORD member not obligated to share their technology with others, so if this new cloning tech has Jovian roots then what the Sisters did was the best way to prevent the Society from blocking its potential widespread use. |
Kybernetes Moros
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
14
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Posted - 2016.10.17 13:38:21 -
[5] - Quote
I'm confused.
The first paragraph poses a series of questions that nobody is obligated to answer. The second is a restatement of the well-worn maxim that the Sisters of EVE are a pretty shady bunch--something that was established many, many years before the Drifters came rollicking onto the scene.
The third paragraph gave me mental whiplash. Whether or not the group sitting in for a Directorate that's at best on life support--and should probably have the plug pulled if it's still going, frankly--has this new and trendy technology truly doesn't interest me. I fail to grasp why throwing down the AG-12 card and shoving it in their face would address the issues in either paragraph, however.
How responsible or reckless, communicative or close-mouthed, altruistic or alarming the Sisters are is (hopefully!) an almost orthogonal matter entirely, so that's the second paragraph out.
Assuming that a group best known for some high-end schools and a series of very secretive misadventures described (generously) in rumours will be more forthcoming on what you wish to know about this cloning malarkey seems odd to me, dispensing with the first.
I never did have a head for politics, though! I might be being far too blunt in how I look at the situation. |
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
560
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Posted - 2016.10.17 13:46:40 -
[6] - Quote
There is always that thing about mixng conspiracy and discretion. Still I am personally more concerned with motives.
SOE is a uh... humanitarian organisation among other things, so with all due respect to the fellow researchers from other organisations, what possible reason can outweight the potential misery these new pilots with immortality complex will inflict on the cluster?
The question "why?" is probably more important than "how?" since we have enough data even on the open and leaked sources to connect some of the dots.
SOCT, SOE and ARC are probably if not the most knowledgeable then the most active entities regarding Drifters. I say we are doing our part to ensure that the resarch we produce is useful to the cluster and is open for interested parties. It's high time we actually light the spotlight and stop wandering in the darkness.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
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Jason Galente
Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai
816
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Posted - 2016.10.17 13:59:27 -
[7] - Quote
Jaret Victorian wrote: SOE is a uh... humanitarian organisation among other things, so with all due respect to the fellow researchers from other organisations, what possible reason can outweight the potential misery these new pilots with immortality complex will inflict on the cluster?
Simple, the more capsuleers there are, the less baseliners there are for capsuleers to senselessly slaughter, it levels off at some point.
What exactly gives you the right to be a capsuleer, but nobody else? It shouldn't be a random genetic lottery for a select very few.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
560
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Posted - 2016.10.17 14:15:02 -
[8] - Quote
The money my parents invested in me and my determination not to die during the process among other things. Jason, you are well aware of the things we do during the training process.
How many capsuleers are basically acting as pirates right now? I was reminded of it during the Origin defence. How many of them will behave like complete lunatics drugged with their new power with the introduction of this new tech?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
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Matar Ronin
2210
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Posted - 2016.10.17 15:39:28 -
[9] - Quote
Sometimes people react poorly when they discover they are left out of the loop. The expectation that they understood the dynamics of how things actually worked on levels far above their pay grade once proven untrue can jar them from their game.
Some groups you trust because they have shared limited info with you in the past and other groups you don't feel so comfy with because they don't include you in their e-mail list.
Put ego aside, fear on the back burner, and learn by observation.
Perhaps the people who did not share in advance the data you request just don't know or trust you.
Asking for action to be initiated based on admitted assumptions is at best very shaky ground. Because you like the SOCT you think the SOE should be obligated to share info with them? Dare I say you haven't yet convinced capsuleers that is a good idea which means your chances of convincing agencies whose waste disposal budgets probably dwarf your total operations is very unlikely.
Sometimes despite a long list of accomplishments and accolades we are just not as important to others as we think we should be, don't get mad, just get beyond it.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
8749
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:03:47 -
[10] - Quote
Kybernetes;
Noone is obligated to answer these questions, absolutely. Still, when a humanitarian organization distributes a technology that is easily militarized to the four empires, bypassing a joint treaty organization and possibly the only other organization with as much knowledge of cloning and infomorph technology as they do, I feel obligated to at least ask the questions.
It might be shouting at the wind, for all we know. It might just result in my being embarrassed. I can deal with that.
Now, whether or not using AG-12 to ensure Society access to the technology is an aggressive step, it is a potential response to the very short list of reasons why the Sisters might not have been forthcoming toward CONCORD and the Society; after all, they either did it for spite (which just doesn't make sense for any large organization), did it to ensure that Empire support was too strong before CONCORD could attempt to put the brakes to it, or did it to reduce Society analysis before the technology was widespread and couldn't be pulled back safely. In the last case, after all, how would you get any one Empire to unilaterally disarm, when you have enemies that may not?
We can't very well compel the Sisters to answer all those nagging questions about the Sanctuary's efforts on the side of wormholes and FTL technology, nor can we necessarily compel them to share the objective of their crowdsourced Drifter tissue analysis project, but perhaps we can at least have a competent, non-military organization analyze this new technology to ensure the Sisters haven't handed us Pandora's Box with a bow on it.
Matar Ronin; uh. Huh? I'm not asking anyone to give ARC or IKAME access to the technology, nor do I honestly think we're big or important. Certainly, we punch above our weight on scientific endeavors, but-- we're tiny. IKAME itself is only barely larger than your alliance. I don't expect anyone to listen to us, or even care, but does that mean I should just let apathy reign and do nothing?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Jjaro Durandal
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:11:21 -
[11] - Quote
Under the assumption The Society had no idea of this development, the cluster is painted a rather dark hue.
I wouldn't be one to make that presumption. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
8749
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:16:39 -
[12] - Quote
In this instance, Ms. Durandal, I'll happily be mistaken. My assumption at present is that the Society had basic knowledge of what was happening, but may not have full access to the specifications of the new cloning architecture.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Matar Ronin
2221
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:22:44 -
[13] - Quote
Pilot Priano I certainly don't expect apathy from you, I suspect you will lead.
The motives behind your discomfort with the SOE are more troubling then their actions. Your demand to get them to share info with SOCT because they shared info with the big four empires seemed at best misguided.
You want to sanction them for sharing info, by forcing them to share info?
I admit your position confuses me.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
8750
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:29:39 -
[14] - Quote
Tell me, Mr. Ronin.
If, for instance, the Sisters had shared this technology with the Society, the Federation, the State, and the Empire, bypassing CONCORD and the Republic, would you not also assume there was some motivation, and want to rectify it or at least know why such a thing occurred?
Very simply, the Sisters made a very specific effort here to cut out of the loop several organizations. It might be for the silliest and most minor of reasons, but I'd prefer to know than to not know, or to see it rectified rather than to let it go unaddressed.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Kybernetes Moros
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
15
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:37:04 -
[15] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Now, whether or not using AG-12 to ensure Society access to the technology is an aggressive step, it is a potential response to the very short list of reasons why the Sisters might not have been forthcoming toward CONCORD and the Society; after all, they either did it for spite (which just doesn't make sense for any large organization), did it to ensure that Empire support was too strong before CONCORD could attempt to put the brakes to it, or did it to reduce Society analysis before the technology was widespread and couldn't be pulled back safely. In the last case, after all, how would you get any one Empire to unilaterally disarm, when you have enemies that may not?
"An aggressive step" wouldn't have been my choice of phrasing, but it works in the sense of "aggressive treatment", I suppose!
None of what you say is nonsense, but it all rests on the assumption that there's some conspiracy in the first place. It could just be the State and Republic quickly shouting "Us too!" in response to the Federal and Imperial beans getting spilled. Like you say, if your enemies have something, it's good to be able to match it in kind!
There's no reason that the Society don't have the same stuff in some store cupboard somewhere and just decided to keep out of the grandstanding, being the ostensibly neutral guys in the room.
Alternatively, there could be some terribly exciting conniving going on behind the scenes, and the Society might have been left scratching their heads and furiously searching Galnet at the announcements. In that case, I still question the utility of waving AG-12 around to address the actual concerns you raise, but hey! It doesn't harm me or mine--or you and yours, them and theirs, or indeed anybody that I care to think of. It's thoroughly positive sum, even if the "positive" part is a bit on the thin side.
(Caveat lector! I rather hope in one way that there is some shadowy undertone to this. I'm not sold on how likely the scenario is, but it's so much more engrossing if it's more of a spy thriller than a bout of grandstanding, don't you think?) |
Matar Ronin
2221
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:38:14 -
[16] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Tell me, Mr. Ronin.
If, for instance, the Sisters had shared this technology with the Society, the Federation, the State, and the Empire, bypassing CONCORD and the Republic, would you not also assume there was some motivation, and want to rectify it or at least know why such a thing occurred?
Very simply, the Sisters made a very specific effort here to cut out of the loop several organizations. It might be for the silliest and most minor of reasons, but I'd prefer to know than to not know, or to see it rectified rather than to let it go unaddressed. Pilot Priano I do not put the SOCT on the same level as the big four, if you do I hope you are happy with that. The big four each have trillions of citizens living under their control and influence, can the same be said of SOCT?
Your accusations of what the motives of the SOE are might all be correct, and they might all be wrong.
You simply rang the alarm bell without sufficient evidence pilot, in my humble less informed opinion
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
854
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:41:42 -
[17] - Quote
Well, regardless of their reasons, the damage has been done. The question now shouldn't be "how" or "why", but "what do we do now?"
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
8750
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:49:29 -
[18] - Quote
What can I say, Kyber? All of those casual flybys of the Sisters flotillas in Drifter systems have left me wondering.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Matar Ronin
2221
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Posted - 2016.10.17 16:50:55 -
[19] - Quote
Sometimes the best way to prove to everyone something is redundant and non-essential is to bypass it all together. Did that just happen to the SOCT?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Jjaro Durandal
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2016.10.17 17:37:47 -
[20] - Quote
@MatarRonin Did you make that comment seriously? |
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Aradina Varren
Alexylva Paradox
84
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Posted - 2016.10.17 18:24:57 -
[21] - Quote
Jjaro Durandal wrote:@MatarRonin Did you make that comment seriously?
For the sake of everyone, I hope not. |
Jennifer Starfall
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
325
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Posted - 2016.10.18 00:06:37 -
[22] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Pilot Priano I do not put the SOCT on the same level as the big four, if you do I hope you are happy with that. The big four each have trillions of citizens living under their control and influence, can the same be said of SOCT?
Your accusations of what the motives of the SOE are might all be correct, and they might all be wrong.
You simply rang the alarm bell without sufficient evidence pilot, in my humble less informed opinion
The CONCORD Inner Circle, as defined by the Yulai Accords, considers the Society on the same level as the "big four" as they are now the holder of the Jove's seat on the council. The Jovian Directorate had a seat equal to the each of the seats of the four main empires. They withdrew from the Inner Circle and named the Society of Conscious Thought as their successor.
So, as Makoto illustrated, this is on the same level as the Sisters circumventing any of the other four consistuent members of the Inner Circle.
Furthermore, the Society not only inherited the Jovian's seat on the Inner Circle, but also their corporate and technological assets. Of particular note in this circumstance is the Jovian medical technology.
And the Sisters avoided exposing their new cloning technology to the Society.
And given the presence that the Sisters have been maintaining in the Drifter Hives? If we care at all for the safety of humanity, we have an obligation to raise a concern.
Jennifer Starfall
Fifth Seyllin Conference
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Jjaro Durandal
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2016.10.18 01:29:42 -
[23] - Quote
From my brief glance at the article; it seemed as if CONCORD had it issue with the cloning tech laying firmly in the realm of military application by the 'big four'. More than likely in their use of it against one another. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2534
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Posted - 2016.10.18 01:44:58 -
[24] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:we ask CONCORD to use Directive Alpha Gamma 12
Before we call upon CONCORD to invoke Directive Alpha Gamma 12, perhaps we might want to actually be allowed to know the text of Directive Alpha Gamma 12?
I mean, if the Directive indicates that all parties have to be brought up to parity with the other powers, it's possible that the Society has this technology already, and the Sisters were bringing everyone else to parity. We simply don't know.
And therein lies a significant chunk of the problems we have evaluating any of CONCORD's moves: We don't actually have the text of the Yulai Accords. Which means there's all sorts of technicalities and questions about CONCORD's behavior, options, and even their powers, that we're simply not able to evaluate. And with CONCORD claiming the mandate of governing our actions and interactions, shouldn't we be entitled to know the actual text of the laws we're supposed to be governed by? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2534
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Posted - 2016.10.18 01:53:50 -
[25] - Quote
Jennifer Starfall wrote:And the Sisters avoided exposing their new cloning technology to the Society.
For all we know, the Sisters didn't give the Society this technology becauseGÇöas you point outGÇöthe Society has the Jove biotech library, which likely includes cloning technology. To think that the clone and pod technology that the Jove shared with us was their most advanced examples would be the height of hubris.
It's very likely this entire request is akin to requesting that the Caldari State be forced to share butane fire technology with the Amarr Empire. |
Matar Ronin
2228
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Posted - 2016.10.18 03:20:30 -
[26] - Quote
Jennifer Starfall wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Pilot Priano I do not put the SOCT on the same level as the big four, if you do I hope you are happy with that. The big four each have trillions of citizens living under their control and influence, can the same be said of SOCT?
Your accusations of what the motives of the SOE are might all be correct, and they might all be wrong.
You simply rang the alarm bell without sufficient evidence pilot, in my humble less informed opinion
The CONCORD Inner Circle, as defined by the Yulai Accords, considers the Society on the same level as the "big four" as they are now the holder of the Jove's seat on the council. The Jovian Directorate had a seat equal to the each of the seats of the four main empires. They withdrew from the Inner Circle and named the Society of Conscious Thought as their successor. So, as Makoto illustrated, this is on the same level as the Sisters circumventing any of the other four consistuent members of the Inner Circle. Furthermore, the Society not only inherited the Jovian's seat on the Inner Circle, but also their corporate and technological assets. Of particular note in this circumstance is the Jovian medical technology. And the Sisters avoided exposing their new cloning technology to the Society. And given the presence that the Sisters have been maintaining in the Drifter Hives? If we care at all for the safety of humanity, we have an obligation to raise a concern. Something went bump in the night and some of you are flailing about like maniacs.
You don't know what SOE was obligated to share, you suspect, but you don't know.
You don't know why SOE didn't share, you suspect, but you don't know.
You don't know what SOCT knows, because they haven't shared it with capsuleers, you suspect, but you don't know.
About the only thing you know is that things, seemingly important things are happening way above your pay grade and you want to stomp your feet, pout, and demand action.
Really?
Can any citizen of the New Eden Cluster demand that Directive AG 12 be invoked? Or just the really self important ones?
When did the New Eden Cluster become a monarchy? Power is inherited by the SOCT? When was that written before or after it happened?
The entire angry silly rant is moot because Concord does not respond to capsuleer complaints, they will invoke no actions against anyone because a few capsuleers think the SOE is not playing by the rules. Not that those making the complaints even know the rules or the context, you suspect, but you don't really know.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Matar Ronin
2228
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Posted - 2016.10.18 03:40:40 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:In a turn of events that one source described as "satisfyingly embarrassing for the Inspector General", each delegation confirmed that they had been supplied the basic specifications of the technology by the SOE.
The official communique notes the "development of novel techniques in cloning and personality transfer technology", affirms the "legality of its use for military purposes by signatories to the Yulai Convention" and "regrets that the Sisters of EVE have seen fit to bypass CONCORD treaties and the proper procedures for the transfer and sharing of technology within the interstellar community". Perhaps I am wrong here and please correct me if I am. It seems like SOE shared the info that has a military application with every power in the Yulai Conference that has a military. Does the SOCT have a Navy or other sizable military force I am unaware of?
If SOCT did not know what was going on in the domains of the big four it's smoking gun proof that just because you inherit a seat doesn't make you qualified to sit in it.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
8757
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Posted - 2016.10.18 03:56:38 -
[28] - Quote
Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Matar Ronin
2228
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Posted - 2016.10.18 04:49:24 -
[29] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Well yes I can admit that possibility, will you?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2127
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Posted - 2016.10.18 15:25:35 -
[30] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Well yes I can admit that possibility, will you? Priano's public relation skills are flawless, she would never behave in such a manner. Besides, what would she rant about?
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
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