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The Golden Serpent
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
213
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Posted - 2016.11.08 17:00:14 -
[481] - Quote
Galaxy Duck wrote:Lol I love threads like these, they're my main source of tears throughout the day. I'm quite disappointed when I check GD and there's not a thread like this. I never report anyone because I'm a grownup and I can handle it when people are less than polite to me on the internet (unlike some people).
"some people" being the targeted victims of your sadism correct? The ones that provide the tears you yearn for? Does it bother you that some of the targets of your sadism are children as young as 13 or is that an added perk in your view?
-:¦:-GÇó:'":GÇó.-:¦:-GÇó* K H A N I D GÇó-:¦:-GÇó:''''*:GÇó-:¦:-
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Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2016.11.08 17:05:15 -
[482] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:Lol I love threads like these, they're my main source of tears throughout the day. I'm quite disappointed when I check GD and there's not a thread like this. I never report anyone because I'm a grownup and I can handle it when people are less than polite to me on the internet (unlike some people). "some people" being the targeted victims of your sadism correct? The ones that provide the tears you yearn for? Does it bother you that some of the targets of your sadism are children as young as 13 or is that an added perk in your view? They appear to be grown men with the mental abilities of 5 year olds so probably not :)
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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The Golden Serpent
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
213
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Posted - 2016.11.08 17:11:26 -
[483] - Quote
Steffles wrote:The Golden Serpent wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:Lol I love threads like these, they're my main source of tears throughout the day. I'm quite disappointed when I check GD and there's not a thread like this. I never report anyone because I'm a grownup and I can handle it when people are less than polite to me on the internet (unlike some people). "some people" being the targeted victims of your sadism correct? The ones that provide the tears you yearn for? Does it bother you that some of the targets of your sadism are children as young as 13 or is that an added perk in your view? They appear to be grown men with the mental abilities of 5 year olds so probably not :)
Are you a straw man alt designed to be an innocent but useful target to help in getting the thread shut down? Or are you really going out of your way to help defend someone who was clearly trolling you five minutes before I posted? What a nice person you are if so.
-:¦:-GÇó:'":GÇó.-:¦:-GÇó* K H A N I D GÇó-:¦:-GÇó:''''*:GÇó-:¦:-
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Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
161
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Posted - 2016.11.08 17:17:09 -
[484] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:Lol I love threads like these, they're my main source of tears throughout the day. I'm quite disappointed when I check GD and there's not a thread like this. I never report anyone because I'm a grownup and I can handle it when people are less than polite to me on the internet (unlike some people). "some people" being the targeted victims of your sadism correct? The ones that provide the tears you yearn for? Does it bother you that some of the targets of your sadism are children as young as 13 or is that an added perk in your view?
Oh, my sadism likes 'em young. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3072
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Posted - 2016.11.08 17:17:10 -
[485] - Quote
Hey, this thread was not weird enough. Let's add some Golden Serpent!
The Golden Serpent wrote:I have learned firsthand that these people fight dirty and use every tool unfairly because they are psychopaths. Look, if you come to the forums and call other people psychopaths because of how they play a game with imaginary spaceships then you should probably expect your comments to be removed. It seams you have a special need to always drag things to RL. Maybe you should take some time offline and get some perspective again.
Seriously calm down miner
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3072
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Posted - 2016.11.08 17:23:44 -
[486] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:Steffles wrote: They appear to be grown men with the mental abilities of 5 year olds so probably not :)
Are you a straw man alt designed to be an innocent but useful target to help in getting the thread shut down? Or are you really going out of your way to help defend someone who was clearly trolling you five minutes before I posted? What a nice person you are if so. And then in a weird twist no one expected both SJW actually turned against each other. You can't make that stuff up.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3072
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Posted - 2016.11.08 17:38:29 -
[487] - Quote
doublepost
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2016.11.08 18:03:55 -
[488] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:Steffles wrote:The Golden Serpent wrote:Galaxy Duck wrote:Lol I love threads like these, they're my main source of tears throughout the day. I'm quite disappointed when I check GD and there's not a thread like this. I never report anyone because I'm a grownup and I can handle it when people are less than polite to me on the internet (unlike some people). "some people" being the targeted victims of your sadism correct? The ones that provide the tears you yearn for? Does it bother you that some of the targets of your sadism are children as young as 13 or is that an added perk in your view? They appear to be grown men with the mental abilities of 5 year olds so probably not :) Are you a straw man alt designed to be an innocent but useful target to help in getting the thread shut down? Or are you really going out of your way to help defend someone who was clearly trolling you five minutes before I posted? What a nice person you are if so. I was referring to posters like Galaxy Duck and Wreck
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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Valkyrie Harkonnen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2016.11.08 18:16:01 -
[489] - Quote
I think that the wardeck system has to be revamped. As of now it doesn't work as a declaration of war towards an enemy but a griefing tactic.
I know that griefing is allowed but i believe when devs created the wardec system their intention wasn't giving free kills to corps against others for self amusement.
In hardcore pvp oriented games like Darkfall, going into war against another clan or against another colation means a huge amount of strategy and preparation which means tons of fun for both sides.
In EVE only the attacker has fun and hes having fun by exploiting a game concept that wasn't intended to work like that.
The result is that loads of new players quit the game as soon as they realize that if they like PVE mostly they will have a crippled experience. Unlike Darkfall, EVE punishes players for not having a strict PVP mindset. Mind you that Darkfall is a PVP oriented sandbox as well with full loot drop on each death.
If CCP is trying to get its playerbase renewed to live more 10 years then the only way to make so is to attract those they didn't like in the past, the carebears. And gimp trial accounts won't make a difference when new players realize that they can't be PVErs in the game and socialize in a corporation. They will choose between playing solo or quitting. |
Corbain Huesin
Skid Kids
1
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Posted - 2016.11.08 18:17:58 -
[490] - Quote
After much deliberation, Ive concluded that the game cannot be improved. We should set the servers on fire and start from scratch tomorrow. |
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Keno Skir
887
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Posted - 2016.11.08 18:24:46 -
[491] - Quote
Steffles wrote:Lan Wang wrote:no, you were just being bad Bad is relative. I think bad is 15 grown men sitting on a gate popping single ships. You think bad is someone taking on 15 ships on a gatecamp in a Proteus. No agreement will be reached here today but give me my bad over yours any day.
To be fair i think we can assume the objective of most combat is to win. By that logic you failed, hard. There's nothing wrong with failure unless you get butt-hurt and blame the guys with the winning tactics for "unfairly" kicking your ass. Your tactics were bad so you lost, they won because the tactic of outnumbering you worked.
"Oh noesssss the bad men won't follow my weird honor code and line up to fight me 1 by 1"
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
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Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
162
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Posted - 2016.11.08 18:42:16 -
[492] - Quote
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:I think that the wardeck system has to be revamped. As of now it doesn't work as a declaration of war towards an enemy but a griefing tactic.
I know that griefing is allowed but i believe when devs created the wardec system their intention wasn't giving free kills to corps against others for self amusement.
In hardcore pvp oriented games like Darkfall, going into war against another clan or against another colation means a huge amount of strategy and preparation which means tons of fun for both sides.
In EVE only the attacker has fun and hes having fun by exploiting a game concept that wasn't intended to work like that.
The result is that loads of new players quit the game as soon as they realize that if they like PVE mostly they will have a crippled experience. Unlike Darkfall, EVE punishes players for not having a strict PVP mindset. Mind you that Darkfall is a PVP oriented sandbox as well with full loot drop on each death.
If CCP is trying to get its playerbase renewed to live more 10 years then the only way to make so is to attract those they didn't like in the past, the carebears. And gimp alpha accounts won't make a difference when new players realize that they can't be PVErs in the game and socialize in a corporation. They will choose between playing solo or quitting.
I we will miss them, truly. |
Keno Skir
890
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 19:12:21 -
[493] - Quote
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:In EVE only the attacker has fun and hes having fun by exploiting a game concept that wasn't intended to work like that.
In fairness I've had loads of fun being the target of wardecs, especially as a new player when i knew i had to learn how to survive them or be everyone's kicking post forever. At no point did i feel like i was being griefed because i fully understood what this game was when i started (the danger was the main reason i started).
If you aren't having fun i suggest you have a think about what kind of game you might find fun. Then once you have an idea, go play that game and quit trying to turn EvE into it.
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
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Mark Marconi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
77
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 19:50:38 -
[494] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:I have been watching this gang for a few days now and their modus operandi is quite clear, they go all over the boards, trying to give people ulcers, drag the topic off track any way they can in order to try to get the thread shut down especially targetting people they don't like - and threads with anyone who threatens their way of life and their value system, namely their bullying, misogyny, name calling, belittling and dragging out of game stuff in game.
They deflect their trolling onto everyone else and they have learned to do it very well. Here they are "innocently" dropping the main name of a person posting as an alt on the boards, putting them on the defensive to further derail the thread they desperately want shut down as it threatens their way of life and their value system: protected psychopathy.
It does not escape me that these sort of threads have been taken down because these trolls are abusing the report system themselves. I have learned firsthand that these people fight dirty and use every tool unfairly because they are psychopaths. If they think they can get away with it they will.
And they have been getting away with it because there is a rot in the moderator system at CCP or, as some ISD have claimed people do not report enough.
Then again that is their intent - they cannot control this thread it is out of their control so they MUST derail it, they MUST get an excuse to have their pet moderators shut it down.
This is dark triad behavior and it deserves to be exposed for what it is You could be right.
I was operating on the concept that they were just idiots, that didn't understand
- Statistics
- Discussions
- Economics
- Risk vs Reward
- Logic
- Hell the list goes on
However they might be under the belief that deliberately stopping reasoned discussion might prevent CCP from correcting the glaring imbalances that exist within this game.
They just seem to not understand that shutting down threads like this just cause more of these threads to be created and it makes them look like children who don't want their toy taken away. |
Azazel Shardani
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2016.11.08 19:59:22 -
[495] - Quote
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:
I know that griefing is allowed but i believe when devs created the wardec system their intention wasn't giving free kills to corps against others for self amusement.
Actually that is exactly why they did it. The intention was to flush out carebears from highsec in order to force them to play the game the way it was intended.
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote: In EVE only the attacker has fun and hes having fun by exploiting a game concept that wasn't intended to work like that.
That is not true. You make it look like that because you are doing absolutely nothing to have fun in EVE. Yes, I know, you are having fun playing the game the way you want it. But if that is the case, don't complain when someone else is playing the same game the way they want it.
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote: The result is that loads of new players quit the game as soon as they realize that if they like PVE mostly they will have a crippled experience.
You can not make everyone happy, lets settle on that.
Slavery is natural, embrace it. We Amarr aprove this message.
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Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
126
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Posted - 2016.11.08 20:02:25 -
[496] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:In EVE only the attacker has fun and hes having fun by exploiting a game concept that wasn't intended to work like that. In fairness I've had loads of fun being the target of wardecs, especially as a new player when i knew i had to learn how to survive them or be everyone's kicking post forever. At no point did i feel like i was being griefed because i fully understood what this game was when i started (the danger was the main reason i started). If you aren't having fun i suggest you have a think about what kind of game you might find fun. Then once you have an idea, go play that game and quit trying to turn EvE into it.
So much this. Remember can flipping? Yeah started a war refusing to become a ransom victim. Didn't even know that **** was possible until it happened. It was nuts! Ejected the ship and making fun of the guy scramming me, then making it a tough two weeks for people to find my corp they dec'd. Been awoxed a few times and hunted. Hauling **** knowing someone, somewhere can take it makes the game very thrilling. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45466
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 20:10:28 -
[497] - Quote
Steffles wrote:...Snuff definitely gank in highsec so I'd say if the shoe fits. You know they are a lowsec entity right?
Where are you getting this from that they definitely gank in highsec?
I know asking for evidence for what you say just leads to being ignored, but I'm still optimistic that one day you'll be able to provide it.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers EVEolution.
515
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Posted - 2016.11.08 20:29:55 -
[498] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: is this thread about improving the game for new people or vets?
This is " that" thread. You know the one. That one that's always been and likely always will be here. Op changes, conversation never does.
it's like groundhog day |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2913
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 20:40:07 -
[499] - Quote
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:I think that the wardeck system has to be revamped. As of now it doesn't work as a declaration of war towards an enemy but a griefing tactic.
I know that griefing is allowed but i believe when devs created the wardec system their intention wasn't giving free kills to corps against others for self amusement.
In hardcore pvp oriented games like Darkfall, going into war against another clan or against another colation means a huge amount of strategy and preparation which means tons of fun for both sides.
In EVE only the attacker has fun and hes having fun by exploiting a game concept that wasn't intended to work like that.
The result is that loads of new players quit the game as soon as they realize that if they like PVE mostly they will have a crippled experience. Unlike Darkfall, EVE punishes players for not having a strict PVP mindset. Mind you that Darkfall is a PVP oriented sandbox as well with full loot drop on each death.
If CCP is trying to get its playerbase renewed to live more 10 years then the only way to make so is to attract those they didn't like in the past, the carebears. And gimp alpha accounts won't make a difference when new players realize that they can't be PVErs in the game and socialize in a corporation. They will choose between playing solo or quitting. It's amazing how few people understand what Eve Online is about. It is not Darkfall, or Wow, or SW:TOR or almost any other MMO that has PvP functionality built it in. Eve Online is literally PvP from the bottom up. It is a "living work of science fiction", not a traditional themepark MMO where the content is provided largely by the developers. In Eve, the central conceit is that we are all the content.
There is no place for pure PvE gameplay and there never was in the long history of this game. That means Eve Online will probably always remain a niche gaming experience, but it also means it remains near unique among the other offerings. Few other games offer the same permanence of loss, or feature a truly player-driven economy, like Eve does. Few other games let you meaningfully shape the universe directly through your efforts and actions. Enabling this game play is why you are always made vulnerable and why CCP will never give you carebears the safety you seem to crave like a drug.
I do concede there should be more social options in Eve Online for players who do not wish to compete, but that is generally not what is offered up in threads like this one. Instead, the carebears will sincerely offer up ideas that allow them competitive incomes and resource generation, with no risk of interference from the other players and/or completely solo. I am sorry, but that is not Eve. You can play Eve largely immune from player interference or by yourself, but you be less efficient at it than players who take risks and defend themselves as well as work together. This is epitomized by the option to play on the test server where there is no risk of PvP (and also no real reward) yet the carebears here don't take that option. Instead they argue the game should be changed so they should have their cake and eat it too or CCP will lose their subscription, despite the fact that such changes to the game are completely incompatible with the core premise of the game and would undermine the competitive and unified economy that is the true gem of this game.
Dealing with wars are the trade-off for the benefits of being in a player corp. It has been that way forever. If you don't want to deal with wars, then stay out of a player corp and use a shared chat channel to play with your friends. Wars can be improved sure, but the basic reality of risk vs. reward isn't ever going to change, whatever your prognosis for the next 10 years of Eve is.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Raca Pyrrea
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2016.11.08 20:50:51 -
[500] - Quote
Azazel Shardani wrote:Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:
I know that griefing is allowed but i believe when devs created the wardec system their intention wasn't giving free kills to corps against others for self amusement.
Actually that is exactly why they did it. The intention was to flush out carebears from highsec in order to force them to play the game the way it was intended.
You know there is a more efficient way to "flush out carebears", just make everything null-sec and be done with it. On the other hand they went through a lot of effort to to those 1.0, 0.9 , 0.4, 0.1, -1 ... thingies in each system if they had different intentions. |
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Raca Pyrrea
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2016.11.08 20:55:35 -
[501] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: It's amazing how few people understand what Eve Online is about. It is not Darkfall, or Wow, or SW:TOR or almost any other MMO that has PvP functionality built it in. Eve Online is literally PvP from the bottom up. It is a "living work of science fiction", not a traditional themepark MMO where the content is provided largely by the developers. In Eve, the central conceit is that we are all the content.
I thought Darkfall was pure PvP and that they didnt even have safe areas if I remember well. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2913
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 20:56:48 -
[502] - Quote
Raca Pyrrea wrote:Black Pedro wrote: It's amazing how few people understand what Eve Online is about. It is not Darkfall, or Wow, or SW:TOR or almost any other MMO that has PvP functionality built it in. Eve Online is literally PvP from the bottom up. It is a "living work of science fiction", not a traditional themepark MMO where the content is provided largely by the developers. In Eve, the central conceit is that we are all the content.
I thought Darkfall was pure PvP and that they didnt even have safe areas if I remember well. I stand corrected then.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
|
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
162
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Posted - 2016.11.08 21:08:13 -
[503] - Quote
Raca Pyrrea wrote:Azazel Shardani wrote:Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:
I know that griefing is allowed but i believe when devs created the wardec system their intention wasn't giving free kills to corps against others for self amusement.
Actually that is exactly why they did it. The intention was to flush out carebears from highsec in order to force them to play the game the way it was intended. You know there is a more efficient way to "flush out carebears", just make everything null-sec and be done with it. On the other hand they went through a lot of effort to to those 1.0, 0.9 , 0.4, 0.1, -1 ... thingies in each system if they had different intentions.
Indeed, there are different levels of security at all of those sec levels. Working as intended. |
Azazel Shardani
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 21:27:17 -
[504] - Quote
Raca Pyrrea wrote:
You know there is a more efficient way to "flush out carebears", just make everything null-sec and be done with it. On the other hand they went through a lot of effort to to those 1.0, 0.9 , 0.4, 0.1, -1 ... thingies in each system if they had different intentions.
It was not about being efficient. It was about a simple nudge to everyone to make sure they know there is no safe place in EVE and they do consent to PvP the moment they undock.
Different values for each system are not a good source for conspiracy theories. Oh wait...
Slavery is natural, embrace it. We Amarr aprove this message.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45468
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 22:02:46 -
[505] - Quote
Raca Pyrrea wrote:Azazel Shardani wrote:Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:
I know that griefing is allowed but i believe when devs created the wardec system their intention wasn't giving free kills to corps against others for self amusement.
Actually that is exactly why they did it. The intention was to flush out carebears from highsec in order to force them to play the game the way it was intended. You know there is a more efficient way to "flush out carebears", just make everything null-sec and be done with it. On the other hand they went through a lot of effort to to those 1.0, 0.9 , 0.4, 0.1, -1 ... thingies in each system if they had different intentions. Sure they went through effort to design different areas of space. That doesn't mean that the earlier claim about wardec intentions is correct.
The last time wardecs were changed was in 2012. The devblog makes it clear that a career path for mercs was absolutely one of the game design aims at the time:
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/changes-to-war-mechanics/
Increasing the use of wardecs over what it previously was, is also mentioned.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5484
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 22:10:47 -
[506] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:In EVE only the attacker has fun and hes having fun by exploiting a game concept that wasn't intended to work like that. In fairness I've had loads of fun being the target of wardecs, especially as a new player when i knew i had to learn how to survive them or be everyone's kicking post forever. At no point did i feel like i was being griefed because i fully understood what this game was when i started (the danger was the main reason i started). If you aren't having fun i suggest you have a think about what kind of game you might find fun. Then once you have an idea, go play that game and quit trying to turn EvE into it.
I've had loads of fun losing ships. Better than spinning in station (of course that doesn't mean one should just stupidly lose ships).
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Raca Pyrrea
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2016.11.08 22:16:57 -
[507] - Quote
Galaxy Duck wrote:
Indeed, there are different levels of security at all of those sec levels. Working as intended.
I am glad we agree |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5484
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 22:28:34 -
[508] - Quote
Mark Marconi wrote:You could be right. I was operating on the concept that they were just idiots, that didn't understand
- Statistics
- Discussions
- Economics
- Risk vs Reward
- Logic
- Hell the list goes on
However they might be under the belief that deliberately stopping reasoned discussion might prevent CCP from correcting the glaring imbalances that exist within this game. They just seem to not understand that shutting down threads like this just cause more of these threads to be created and it makes them look like children who don't want their toy taken away.
Yes, the AG people really have their work cut out for them.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2016.11.09 06:30:29 -
[509] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Steffles wrote:Lan Wang wrote:no, you were just being bad Bad is relative. I think bad is 15 grown men sitting on a gate popping single ships. You think bad is someone taking on 15 ships on a gatecamp in a Proteus. No agreement will be reached here today but give me my bad over yours any day. To be fair i think we can assume the objective of most combat is to win. By that logic you failed, hard. There's nothing wrong with failure unless you get butt-hurt and blame the guys with the winning tactics for "unfairly" kicking your ass. Your tactics were bad so you lost, they won because the tactic of outnumbering you worked. "Oh noesssss the bad men won't follow my weird honor code and line up to fight me 1 by 1" My objective was clearly to get a fight and get blown up. Had it been otherwise I would have not engaged that many people on a gate. I was hoping to take the stratios out which I would have done had it not been for the logi but it was not to be.
Objectives are subjective.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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Mark Marconi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
78
|
Posted - 2016.11.09 06:45:39 -
[510] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Yes, the AG people really have their work cut out for them.
Given I am not anti-ganking, no idea on that. Personally I am pro-ganking especially people ganking gankers, bounty hunting got killed years ago and with those stupid catalysts and their ability to spend most of their time docked means they spend more time safe than those that they target.
However I do know
Mark Twain wrote:Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. |
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