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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
19527
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Posted - 2016.11.14 19:36:49 -
[31] - Quote
WTB button autoclicking itself for Dscan. CCP, how much?
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6251
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Posted - 2016.11.14 20:34:57 -
[32] - Quote
There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Keno Skir
915
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Posted - 2016.11.14 20:38:18 -
[33] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:All that said, I would benefit greatly if Dscan became automatic, but long ago I accepted that it _does_ make the game a better, more interesting one, even if it breaks the omnipotent star-ship pilot fantasy just a wee bit.
So much this ^
Well done Ashterothi for winning EvE, your medal is in the mail
(if you like i will literally award you a medal in memory of this day, so others might learn from your example)
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2596
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Posted - 2016.11.14 20:38:36 -
[34] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Listen, we didn't have d-scan a number of years ago, CCP added it as a feature so you could see who was hunting you, and they specifically made it so it's not automated but rather you need to click the button to see who's coming.
Not to defend the OP's serial shiptoasting or anything, but, Dscan has been around at least as long as I have (hell, I remember when you could d-scan NPCs).
With respect to whether or not the functionality/playability/QOL of a given feature should be updated or improved, the fact that the feature didn't exist at some point isn't even in the same zipcode as an actual counterpoint. Furthermore, if, "[Feature] was specifically made in a certain way in its initial implementation," were a statement that actually mattered, we'd never be able to change anything. You'd still have a probe scanner that required flying around the system and dropping probes, then waiting entire minutes while they analyzed, the system scanner would be a manual thing with a 5AU range, and bombers would use crusie missiles.
I've never seen a d-scan suggestion I really liked, and it would almost certainly be a profoundly difficult change no matter what, but those were complete non-arguments.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Orlacc
950
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Posted - 2016.11.14 20:41:34 -
[35] - Quote
Great question. Playing long?
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
39
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Posted - 2016.11.14 20:51:24 -
[36] - Quote
Im not online to test but cant you just paper weight + hotkey for continues updates? |
Alana Packham
Wardec Solutions
19
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Posted - 2016.11.14 21:43:55 -
[37] - Quote
there needs to be a difference between hi-sec and the rest of the game apart form people in hi-sec enjoying the game.
its called d-scan.
but if your in a wormhole, and I know its been a while for me, just look at the local chat box?
Its not that the Dev's have never been hi-sec miners, more that if they ever admitted it they'd be designing new pattern's in the dust as they sweep the car park. Would you employ someone who spends all day mining in hi?
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
215
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Posted - 2016.11.14 22:23:33 -
[38] - Quote
Because dscan is not a purely passive system.
Being good at it is actually a skill. I'm not talking the normal passive dscan checking as a defensive action, but when you're adjusting the cone and range to scout particular vectors, or timing it for use while in warp you don't really want it to be constantly updating.
I'm not particularly the best dscan wizard, but I have a guy in corp who is magical with that thing. Using only dscan, his camera, a couple bookmarks, and fast tackle I've seen him track down and grab safed up targets in wspace far faster and more efficiently than I thought possible.
When you combine it with probes, a really good scout can nail down someone's location so precisely that they can get a warpin on a target on the first pass, as they know where the target is within a 1AU radius before they even launch combat probes. Make no mistake, whether the scout knows it or not, doing that requires some pretty complex 3d math and spatial reasoning that goes far beyond APM. They're literally doing triangulation in their head on the fly.
Is it annoying to tap dscan to watch for probes and incoming ships? Sure. That's kind of the point. If you're using it defensively there should be a chance that you're going to miss something if you're doing lots of other actions.
Dscan isn't your eyeballs. It's more like the spaceship version of a tracking skill. Its something you want at least one person in the group to keep eyes on specifically so other people in the group can focus more directly on whatever they're doing. |
witchking42
UNFRL Fleet Operations
212
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Posted - 2016.11.14 22:33:49 -
[39] - Quote
Problem solved :
https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2014/AnSME7.gif
Just need to map scan to the "Y" key |
Jen Outamon
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
0
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Posted - 2016.11.14 23:13:46 -
[40] - Quote
"Doh! Stupid bird!" - heard somewhere in W space.
The OP said "There can be no lore aspect to this." I am not so sure. Perhaps there is. D-scan doesn't work like radar. It can't be based on radio waves, as it operates at speeds about 3500x faster then light. So it is based on some kind of magic, and the lore can make up all kinds of restrictions on how that magic works.
If it did work like radar, I also want to point out that not only should it be auto-updating, it should just provide a 3-d map (after all it can detect range and angle too, as can you by manually changing the settings). But it doesn't work that way. (And that is a good thing ! ) |
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Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
1061
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Posted - 2016.11.14 23:23:25 -
[41] - Quote
i'm fine with manually mashing the d-scan hotkey.
what i'd really like is a little d-scan history: things that are new on this d-scan show up in green text. things that were there last d-scan and are still there are white. things that have dropped off d-scan since last mash are in red.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
422
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Posted - 2016.11.15 03:11:36 -
[42] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Ashterothi wrote:All that said, I would benefit greatly if Dscan became automatic, but long ago I accepted that it _does_ make the game a better, more interesting one, even if it breaks the omnipotent star-ship pilot fantasy just a wee bit. So much this ^ Well done Ashterothi for winning EvE, your medal is in the mail (if you like i will literally award you a medal in memory of this day, so others might learn from your example)
I will just save this on my bio, thanks!
Listen to On Grid Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2005
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Posted - 2016.11.15 03:40:25 -
[43] - Quote
Darth Magus wrote:Great idea!!! Lets add "refresh" button to overview and Local chat!
+ 1 !!!
(You are trolling and so am I)
But really - using D-scan (spamming it) is a big part of "know your surroundings gameplay"...
Otherwise we might as well dumb this down and just show all ships(players) in the system on your overview and get rid of D-scan all together, right?
Also remove cosmic anomalies - and put them all on the overview to easily warp to. Also mining lasers should automatically switch over to a new asteroid once one that you are currently mining is exhausted...right?
Right? Except mashing dscan does not make anything smarter.
Unless finding a static key mapping every few seconds is intelligent gameplay now.
Which it isn't.
And the funny thing is that "knowing your surroundings" gameplay works fine without button spamming. That's how local works for those that look at it. Those that don't lose situational awareness even without having to hit the button. Dscan would be no different.
And none of your examples are even comparable. They're just hyperbolic nonsense. The rest of the game presents situational information just fine on its own and no one complains. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2016.11.15 04:49:28 -
[44] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_
I am happy to hear that there is a technical reason for this rather than it being purposeful gameplay design.
The other argument besides technical reasons seems to be that the UI should be nerfed in this game so as to truly separate the wheat from the chaff. But they never explained 'why stop there?' Why only nerf the UI related to dscan, but nothing else?
What are you people.... pussies? I say let's truly separate the real men with hair on their chests from the boys in this game. For starters, nerf the local chat and the overview. At a minimum, add refresh buttons to them. But that's just a start, and a pussy start at that. Any self-respecting video gamer could spam-click three buttons in his sleep. I say we can do better. Much better.
For instance, what's with the propulsion in this game being so pussy automated? So care-bearish? I say nerf it so we can find out who the real men are in this game. You want your ship to move? Add a 'thrust' button to the UI. You mash it once and you get a millisecond of thrust. That means mashing it even once a second will have you moving at a ridiculous snail's pace. A real man should be able to quiver his hand and finger to mash the button at maybe 100 times a second, which will afford him a normal speed. NOW we're getting somewhere. NOW we're starting to separate some wheat from the pussy chaff. But we can do better. Much better.
For instance, what's with the main 'world view' in this game being so pussified? It's care-bearish to the extreme. Here's a much better idea. Get rid of it. We don't want pretty, carebear graphics - it's all for pussies, and it does nothing to separate the real men with hairy chests from the boys. I say replace all the graphics on the 'world view' screen with nothing but binary, scrolling upwards in real-time. What we want is just like that scene in The Matrix where the guy says "I don't even see the code anymore. All I see is blonde, brunette, redhead, etc." Well, that's what the non-carebear real men in this game should be able to do - decode the matrix on the fly. What I want to hear from real men is "I don't even see the code anymore. All I see is Raven, Bhaalgorn, etc."
And that's just off the top of my head. I mean come on! There's just SOOOO much more work that needs to be done in this area. Let's come up with a list of ideas in addition to the ones I proposed, and propose them in whatever appropriate area of the forums. |
Cajun Waffles
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2016.11.15 05:27:44 -
[45] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic.
You should become a dev. Haha
I hate spamming dscan and something like that would be epic.
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Vigirr
36
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Posted - 2016.11.15 05:41:14 -
[46] - Quote
Cajun Waffles wrote:The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic. You should become a dev. Haha I hate spamming dscan and something like that would be epic.
You don't understand, what he (and someone earlier posting "yes, please do this") means is about how 5 seconds isn't fast enough when it really matters, in that specific case you need to us it MUCH more often which if it would be automated would create even more strain on the server. So if automated it would make everyone Dcan all the time which would be a problem for the server to begin with and in times you actually need it the 5 second cycle would be too slow anyway.
This is another reason for my "don't ask for game design changes if you don't know enough on the subject" reply to the OP earlier. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
47
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Posted - 2016.11.15 05:54:01 -
[47] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Cajun Waffles wrote:The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic. You should become a dev. Haha I hate spamming dscan and something like that would be epic. You don't understand, what he (and someone earlier posting "yes, please do this") means is about how 5 seconds isn't fast enough when it really matters, in that specific case you need to use it MUCH more often which if it would be automated would create even more strain on the server. So if automated it would make everyone Dscan all the time which would be a problem for the server to begin with and in times you actually need it the 5 second cycle would be too slow anyway.
1) While a module would be nicer than what we have, it is unnecessary. It just needs to be like local chat or overview. That seems to get updated automatically, often enough. No reason (besides possible technical reasons) why dscan shouldn't work the same way.
Quote: This is another reason for my "don't ask for game design changes if you don't know enough on the subject" reply to the OP earlier.
And you claim to "know enough on the subject?" Then tell me why it isn't a strain to calculate what's on the overview and who's in local chat, but it would be to calculate the dscan?
I can, and will, "ask for game design changes" (not that I actually did this - I questioned the reason behind the gameplay design) any time I feel like it. This is a forum. I can post whatever I want as long as it is within the rules. If you don't like what I post, you don't have to read, or respond. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10869
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Posted - 2016.11.15 06:02:49 -
[48] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_ I am happy to hear that there is a technical reason for this rather than it being purposeful gameplay design. The other argument besides technical reasons seems to be that the UI should be nerfed in this game so as to truly separate the wheat from the chaff. But they never explained 'why stop there?' Why only nerf the UI related to dscan, but nothing else? What are you people.... pussies? Ignoring the hyperbole you vomited there for a second...
There are groups of the population who like things to be more manual and "difficult." They have many reasons for this;
- some like to master the "klunkiness" as a show of personal skill - some prefer to have more control over what they do and when they do it - some are simply comfortable with it as is - some simply find it more fun to work and play with things that go "oops"
At the same time though... if you make things too difficult and clunky, it stops being fun.
There is a sweet spot you have to hit. Not too automated... not too mechanical. Engaging, but not overly tedious. Something that rewards your input, but doesn't necessarily stop you from doing what you want to do.
A good example of this phenomena in the real world are people who like to work with more mechanical, more manual, and/or more "clunky" cars.
Automatic cars (ones where the car shifts gears for you) are arguably "better" than manual (see: "stick shift") cars as the car will pretty much handle the engine by itself. Little human input is needed beyond stepping on the gas pedal.
But some people PREFER manual cars. This is despite manual cars requiring constant attention, actual practice and training, and being more prone to "driver error."
So why do people subject themselves to such tedium? Why be dumb and not trade this anachronistic tech for something that is more efficient and automated?
In fact... if they were "REAL MEN" they would ditch the car altogether and ride horses! Those take skill! Stepping on a gas pedal is too carebearish for "REAL MEN!" Steering with a wheel is too automated... the test of true skill is to make an animal with its own mind to turn!!
(see! I can hyperbole too!)
Geronimo McVain explained it perfectly in his post on the first page. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6707089#post6707089)
Every game needs imperfections to reward activity and player knowledge. The "imperfection" of the D-Scan, technical or otherwise, is a good thing as it rewards those players who use it with diligence.
How did you Veterans start?
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Vigirr
36
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Posted - 2016.11.15 06:15:38 -
[49] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Then tell me why it isn't a strain to calculate what's on the overview and who's in local chat, but it would be to calculate the dscan?
It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play, Dscan is not and thus it's not automated. It's really not difficult to understand if you have a few braincells. |
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs Zulu People
0
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Posted - 2016.11.15 06:33:29 -
[50] - Quote
I think if OP just throws away his computer and tries to play EVE by reading and inputting bits through his network wire, and then posts a video of winning a pvp fight by playing like this to Youtube, he would become really popular as a REAL MAN. |
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Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
47
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Posted - 2016.11.15 07:24:12 -
[51] - Quote
Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain.
You don't know what you are talking about. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
47
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Posted - 2016.11.15 07:30:23 -
[52] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:There is a sweet spot you have to hit. Not too automated... not too mechanical. Engaging, but not overly tedious. Something that rewards your input, but doesn't necessarily stop you from doing what you want to do.
...
Every game needs imperfections to reward activity and player knowledge. The "imperfection" of the D-Scan, technical or otherwise, is a good thing as it rewards those players who use it with diligence.
So why is this the 'sweet spot' for dscan but not for local chat? |
Vigirr
36
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Posted - 2016.11.15 08:08:51 -
[53] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain. You don't know what you are talking about.
It's a strain that CCP, over the years, has accounted for and upgraded their servers and infrastructure for given that it's a basic UI element of the game, which Dscan isn't.
Beast of Revelations wrote:I'm a professional server developer.
lol |
guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
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Posted - 2016.12.31 16:52:24 -
[54] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain. You don't know what you are talking about. It's a strain that CCP, over the years, has accounted for and upgraded their servers and infrastructure for given that it's a basic UI element of the game, which Dscan isn't.
Your aggressive tone and continuous stream of insults only show your lack of knowledge on the subject.
In our case, the dscan can be cached so that the server only sends information once for evey ship that changes grid. This is way less computing-intense than the overview : the overview sends every second the informations of the grid : modules cycling, speed vectors of the objects (drones, missiles, npcs, ships of course). Which is a LOT more computation than sending a cached data on request.
So, NO in the present case there is no "strain effect" to prevent dscan from being automated. Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6337
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Posted - 2016.12.31 16:59:47 -
[55] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:Vigirr wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain. You don't know what you are talking about. It's a strain that CCP, over the years, has accounted for and upgraded their servers and infrastructure for given that it's a basic UI element of the game, which Dscan isn't. Your aggressive tone and continuous stream of insults only show your lack of knowledge on the subject. In our case, the dscan can be cached so that the server only sends information once for evey ship that changes grid. This is way less computing-intense than the overview : the overview sends every second the informations of the grid : modules cycling, speed vectors of the objects (drones, missiles, npcs, ships of course). Which is a LOT more computation than sending a cached data on request. So, NO in the present case there is no "strain effect" to prevent dscan from being automated. Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost.
D-scan requires you to check the range to _every_ item in system. Not just the ones on grid with you. That's a significantly higher number.
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
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Posted - 2016.12.31 17:01:48 -
[56] - Quote
I update my previous post on what needs to be computed. basically, not it does not, on the opposite it only needs to store the data of grids relations and grid contents. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6337
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Posted - 2016.12.31 17:05:34 -
[57] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:I update my previous post on what needs to be computed. basically, not it does not, on the opposite it only needs to store the data of grids relations and grid contents.
Whole bunch of changes required to make it work that way.
(Just a wee tip. I've spoken with people who actually know how this works on the server. I'm not talking out my ass on it.)
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
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Posted - 2016.12.31 17:08:40 -
[58] - Quote
that's why I wrote "Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost."
There is no inherent strain in the dscan functionnality - and that is my point. People saying that dscan functionnality is a strain are wrong. The implementation can be, but with the grid system and the slow update of it( few grid appear, and few elements warp on average) the automation does not have to be painful. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
621
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Posted - 2016.12.31 18:54:31 -
[59] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:that's why I wrote "Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost."
There is no inherent strain in the dscan functionnality - and that is my point. People saying that dscan functionnality is a strain are wrong. The implementation can be, but with the grid system and the slow update of it( few grid appear, and few elements warp on average) the automation does not have to be painful.
so you know more than the game designers then? ill wait for your game to be on par with EvE, til then, stfu!
Just Add Water
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guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
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Posted - 2016.12.31 19:20:33 -
[60] - Quote
So I know better than you may imagine. If you don't understand me, no point in even trying to answer : the topic is out of your capacities. |
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