Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 07:14:17 -
[1] - Quote
I understand why I, as the game currently stands, need to spam d-scan (at least if I'm in a wormhole or something). What I'm asking is, what is the GAMEPLAY DESIGN reason for this?
There can be no lore aspect to this. In the real world, even our (relatively-speaking) low-tech airplanes - even el-cheapo ones - have continuously updating radars. The pilot doesn't have to keep reaching over and spamming the 'show objects' button while flying the plane.
The only reason I can come up with is some kind of misguided 'Starcraft' notion of having to click and spam buttons to expend APM to separate higher-skilled players from lower-skilled ones. Even in Starcraft, this notion is debated (although the spam-clicky side won), but I don't think there should even be a debate in this game, however. I don't think anyone thinks, or should think, of this game as a spam-clicky Starcrafty real-time tactical.
If that is the reason it is designed this way (the game should be a spam-clicky RTT kind of game), why stop at d-scan? What about the local chat window? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the overview? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the window you are looking at the 'game world' through? Why not add a button to spam-click to update that? Come on, let's separate the men from the boys here, and let's separate the wheat from the chaff. If we are gonna have a spam-clicky game, don't do some pathetic, half-handed approach. Let's go all out with it.
If I'm missing something as far as the reason for this, pray tell. Or, if the reason is "we need pointless APM sinks," give me an argument as to why. Otherwise, come on guys. Update the damn d-scan. Turn it into some radar-esque type of thing showing blips, or at the very least, keep it the way it is but make it continuously updating like local chat or overview or anything else. The way this thing is designed now is just dumb. And yes, I'm quite good at hitting the stupid thing every 5 seconds without forgetting, I just think it's dumb. |
Ria Nieyli
47164
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 09:23:46 -
[2] - Quote
You can hotkey d-scan now. It's easier than ever. |
Geronimo McVain
EVE University Ivy League
230
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 09:44:30 -
[3] - Quote
The reason is simple: Activity is rewarded. EVE is living from PvP and in Eve a lot of PvP are the results of an errors on one side. You don't click the D-Scan -> you get killed. You don't realize that cloaking deactivated -> boom, You didn't check local often enough -> hello clonebay. You trade locally -> you get scammed
CCP could stop all this with automatics but this would result in a harsh reduction of PVP or other "unwanted" player activities. Most console titles have aiming helps. Now think of a shooter with 100% perfect autoaim. It wouldn't be fun because it wouldn't need any skill on your side. So game design has always build in imperfection. Need to click D-Scan is one in EVE: yes CCP could make it better but it would make the game worse. |
Vigirr
33
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 10:00:48 -
[4] - Quote
First of all as explained above, activity is rewarded or rather laziness should not be rewarded. Secondly it's a server thing. If everyone would always use Dscan, as it's automated, that would require a whole lot more server cpu and data.
The majority of people do not need Dscan for the majority of the time, thus it's not automated.
|
Keno Skir
911
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 10:27:41 -
[5] - Quote
Posting in another one of Beast's "wahh, I don't understand the mechanic so it must be broken" threads..
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
|
Aehren Armitage
6
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 11:17:04 -
[6] - Quote
It's a bit of a tricky situation because anyone worth their salt spams D-scan anyway (and therefore it's a needless button-mashing pain in the ass) and anyone who doesn't is a great target (especially in J-space).
Making it automatic would reduce d-scan to something as annoying and passive as the overview (i.e. set up up when you first start playing as the default is awful and then keep it as is for the rest of your Eve career) and basically just create another UI window you HAVE to have open, that everyone has open, and therefore no-one needs (why not just add Local chat to WH space, or ship class/type to local?).
At the same time, I understand where you're coming from. As I run WH sites I spam the hotkey and it's just a crappy additional thing that everyone kinda does anyway. But some people don't, and then kills are much more likely, which is the real point of Eve.
Sorry I didn't really help, I'm in two minds about it myself.
Maybe a mid-point would be to have D-scan refresh every time a module was activated or a drone was given an order? That way, active players (90% of whom spam it anyway) would get the same result while playing the game, but passive/AFK players would be SOL and see nothing.
I dunno, it works the way it is, but I do have to agree it could be streamlined a little without making it mindless.
High on a hill was a lonely goat herd.
|
The Golden Serpent
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
220
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 11:44:55 -
[7] - Quote
He has a point, radar that doesn't update itself seems primitive and breaks immersion. If they can't handle the server traffic then we just have to live with it, but Eve players please stop having such a sensitive and touchy armpit about every little criticism of the game, Eve is not perfect and is not a large game, it cannot afford to be foolishly ignorant of its faults.
-:¦:-GÇó:'":GÇó.-:¦:-GÇó* K H A N I D GÇó-:¦:-GÇó:''''*:GÇó-:¦:-
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 11:45:52 -
[8] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:The reason is simple: Activity is rewarded. EVE is living from PvP and in Eve a lot of PvP are the results of an errors on one side. You don't click the D-Scan -> you get killed. You don't realize that cloaking deactivated -> boom, You didn't check local often enough -> hello clonebay. You trade locally -> you get scammed
CCP could stop all this with automatics but this would result in a harsh reduction of PVP or other "unwanted" player activities. Most console titles have aiming helps. Now think of a shooter with 100% perfect autoaim. It wouldn't be fun because it wouldn't need any skill on your side. So game design has always build in imperfection. Need to click D-Scan is one in EVE: yes CCP could make it better but it would make the game worse.
You didn't explain why this wonderful button-mashing spam mechanic shouldn't also be added to overview, to local chat, etc. |
Amon Santos
Dot.Inc TRUE VINE
0
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 11:46:11 -
[9] - Quote
I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). |
The Golden Serpent
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
220
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 11:47:01 -
[10] - Quote
Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on).
What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic.
-:¦:-GÇó:'":GÇó.-:¦:-GÇó* K H A N I D GÇó-:¦:-GÇó:''''*:GÇó-:¦:-
|
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 11:52:29 -
[11] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:First of all as explained above, activity is rewarded or rather laziness should not be rewarded.
You didn't explain why this wonderous 'activity' mechanic, and 'punishment of laziness' mechanic, shouldn't also be added to overview, local chat, etc.
Quote:Secondly it's a server thing. If everyone would always use Dscan, as it's automated, that would require a whole lot more server cpu and data.
I'm a professional server developer. I'm sure others who post on these forums are also, and opinions may vary, but it seems to me that whatever info which is already being sent every ping (local chat info, overview info, etc) could just be augmented with the dscan info. Yes, it would mean more data being sent. But with server speeds, bandwidth etc. available today, I doubt it would be a big deal, especially if compression is being used, which I'd guess it is.
Still, I don't know that for sure, it's just a guess. If some CCP developer posted and said this was the reason for dscan being the way it is, I'd be relieved. I'd much rather it be a technical issue than a gameplay design choice.
|
Elenahina
agony unleashed Agony Empire
1431
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 11:58:44 -
[12] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic.
That would be awesome.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
|
Vigirr
33
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:02:20 -
[13] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:I doubt it would be a big deal
At any given time only very few people run Dscan, now picture everyone doing it all the time. Then picture a 1000 man fleet against another 1000 man fleet, they normally don't use Dscan because it's not needed, that's what the scouts are for. If automated they all use Dscan all the time and it'll grind that node to a halt, N+1 messes this up massively.
If you don't understand how this would be a big deal in regards to server CPU then you should probably start to question your own logic, reasoning and knowledge. |
Swoop McFly
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
55
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:09:20 -
[14] - Quote
If you've lived in w-space for long enough you don't even notice it anymore that you are smashing that button.
CCP has actually said that they are not happy with the instant perfect intel from local - so expect that this will change at some point. (probably when the observatory arrays are released)
When you hit d-scan the server needs to calculate the distance between you and every ship and object in system. If the server had to do that for every player in system the workload would scale with N^2. The server nodes already have trouble keeping up in big battles - hitting them with another N^2 problem would not be a good idea. |
Salvos Rhoska
1573
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:18:37 -
[15] - Quote
Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE?
PvE v PvP
Selling CODE licenses! 9.99mil isk!
Bid for unique CODE neon edition special agent certificate!
|
Vigirr
33
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:19:37 -
[16] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE?
No, any form of automation is forbidden. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:45:45 -
[17] - Quote
Vigirr wrote: If you don't understand how this would be a big deal in regards to server CPU then you should probably start to question your own logic, reasoning and knowledge.
Of course I understand how something could or would be a big deal, depending on the particulars. I don't know how the server and clients are designed, I don't know the data involved, the payload sizes, etc. If experts who have been working on this describe the problem (which I'm not familiar with), the size of the 'deal' (big or small) would be easy to see. I'd either agree with them, or disagree and decide it could all be designed better. It all just depends.
Probably the 'right' way to do this, all other things being equal, would be to send the data on all ships in the area to the client with each payload, and let the client do the computations for the dscan. But again, I don't understand all the issues here, and neither does anyone else who doesn't work on the client, server, or both.
This is pure theorycraft - I don't know how many bytes to encode a ship, but assuming it's a couple of bytes (a big assumption on my part), a couple thousand ships could be some multiple of a couple thousand bytes. Theoretically it could be 'cheap,' but I don't know. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:46:34 -
[18] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE?
I don't know why it wouldn't be allowed for purely to remap keys. |
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
711
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:48:24 -
[19] - Quote
I changed my hotkey to space bar for the directional scanner.
Space space space space space space space space
@lunettelulu7
|
Vigirr
33
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:50:47 -
[20] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:This is pure theorycraft.... Theoretically it could be 'cheap,' ...but I don't know.
Why don't you just stop voicing your mistaken statements, baseless assumptions and hilarious demands for game design changes, if you realise that you don't know wth you're talking about.
|
|
Keno Skir
913
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 13:16:04 -
[21] - Quote
Dscan is a catalyst for conflict. Conflict drives the entire in game economy and all activity within it. In a HUGE number of cases conflict is only possible due to a pilots negligence with regard to dscan. If we automate all aspects of safety conflict becomes a rarity which is the opposite of what CCP want. Dscan is the embodiment of the players choice, whether to put in effort or be lazy and reap the rewards of either. Working as intended, the lazy become food for those who are willing to put the effort in.
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
|
Bagatur I
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
79
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 13:21:56 -
[22] - Quote
Swoop McFly wrote:
When you hit d-scan the server needs to calculate the distance between you and every ship and object in system. If the server had to do that for every player in system the workload would scale with N^2. The server nodes already have trouble keeping up in big battles - hitting them with another N^2 problem would not be a good idea.
it is already doing that for overview - objects and ships, as I sometimes briefly see ships warping by, or briefly see something in overview as I warped by. adding that to dscan wont require re-calculating the distances, it will be just like overview with bigger "grid" size so-to-speak and less info to show (only ship names). |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
14901
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 13:27:08 -
[23] - Quote
Damn, now I have to agree with Beast. Having to smash a button every few seconds is stupid. The game should reward AWARENESS (ie you should have to be looking at your client), not repetitive stress injury inducing button smashing.
Now I don't beleive d-scan should 'ping' audibly like radar when new results show up (again you shold have to be looking at your client), and maybe having to click a button for a 1 minute cycle wouldn't be so bad (to keep you 'active'), but the current situation is crap. need to spam d-scan is imo one thing that keeps more people from playing in wormholes more often, having to spam is annoying as hell. |
Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
129
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 13:46:54 -
[24] - Quote
Im not sure if it is a mechanic that needs to be in place because of server mechnics.
When you DScan, your computer ask the sever for a list of all the things in your DScan range. The actuall information where it is needs to stay on the server in order to prevent the eve online version of wallhacks.
A automated broadcast system might put to mutch stress on the server. Espacially in larger fleet fights.
|
Revis Owen
The Conference Elite CODE.
428
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 14:15:37 -
[25] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:it seems to me that whatever info which is already being sent every ping (local chat info, overview info, etc) could just be augmented with the dscan info.
I endorse this product and/or service idea.
I can think of many EULA-compliant ways to use that additional incoming data to enhance my Code enforcement work!
Thank you, carebear, for yet again making a suggestion you think will make things safer for you, that would actually help me to asplode you more.
Agent of the New Order
http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
|
Darth Magus
The Lone Magus
7
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 16:03:27 -
[26] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:I understand why I, as the game currently stands, need to spam d-scan (at least if I'm in a wormhole or something). What I'm asking is, what is the GAMEPLAY DESIGN reason for this?
There can be no lore aspect to this. In the real world, even our (relatively-speaking) low-tech airplanes - even el-cheapo ones - have continuously updating radars. The pilot doesn't have to keep reaching over and spamming the 'show objects' button while flying the plane.
The only reason I can come up with is some kind of misguided 'Starcraft' notion of having to click and spam buttons to expend APM to separate higher-skilled players from lower-skilled ones. Even in Starcraft, this notion is debated (although the spam-clicky side won), but I don't think there should even be a debate in this game, however. I don't think anyone thinks, or should think, of this game as a spam-clicky Starcrafty real-time tactical.
If that is the reason it is designed this way (the game should be a spam-clicky RTT kind of game), why stop at d-scan? What about the local chat window? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the overview? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the window you are looking at the 'game world' through? Why not add a button to spam-click to update that? Come on, let's separate the men from the boys here, and let's separate the wheat from the chaff. If we are gonna have a spam-clicky game, don't do some pathetic, half-handed approach. Let's go all out with it.
If I'm missing something as far as the reason for this, pray tell. Or, if the reason is "we need pointless APM sinks," give me an argument as to why. Otherwise, come on guys. Update the damn d-scan. Turn it into some radar-esque type of thing showing blips, or at the very least, keep it the way it is but make it continuously updating like local chat or overview or anything else. The way this thing is designed now is just dumb. And yes, I'm quite good at hitting the stupid thing every 5 seconds without forgetting, I just think it's dumb.
Great idea!!! Lets add "refresh" button to overview and Local chat!
+ 1 !!!
(You are trolling and so am I)
But really - using D-scan (spamming it) is a big part of "know your surroundings gameplay"...
Otherwise we might as well dumb this down and just show all ships(players) in the system on your overview and get rid of D-scan all together, right?
Also remove cosmic anomalies - and put them all on the overview to easily warp to. Also mining lasers should automatically switch over to a new asteroid once one that you are currently mining is exhausted...right?
Right? |
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
38
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 16:50:11 -
[27] - Quote
I'm so happy most people posting here aren't involved in any decision making. D-scan is not a catalyst for conflict or the lack of updating it. Its a user interface like any other interface you use to connect to the underlying virtual machine. The fact that it exists is not a question of design choice of 2016 as this tool was around sense the birth of eve and most likely an archaic tool that should have been put to bed a long time ago, but as eve players fond of there conservative mindsets its left intact after almost 10+ years. Like most other parts of eve it should be questioned and removed if its not serving its intended purpose. Its also quite foolish guessing ccps server architecture and believing that it would cause lag and is the reason its not auto updating, making stupid assumptions turns you into a tinfoil engineer.
I think the issue of D-scan isn't the idea of manually needing updates. Its the fact that it can pre-alert the player of off-grid activity's. I believe it was one of the main devs talking about putting the D-scan into the overview but somehow it never did end up happening. Sadly its a nifty cool little toy until your completely dependent on its use like in J-space. Then you realize how stupid the UI design is and what pvp boils down to. A click and update tool that will give you a list of possible hostiles for you to make rudimentary decisions to run or engage before the enemy team is on grid.
I think the issue is in the whole list mechanic and update system that needs to be thought through. EvE pvp should probably be updated to serve a more complex engagement system. The whole update system is very rudimentary. I'm probably trying to rethink the whole core game from the ground up but the whole update system isn't very exciting and engaging, its almost a game made perfect for an AI except they expect a player to take its place and do what we are bad at. Players should handle the upper level decisions and leave the lower level updates to something more automatic like all other client UI interfaces. Sadly a change of this magnitude to make things better probably needs a heavy alteration that we may never see in EvE altogether, might also ruin what makes this game what it is. It would be nice to see the D-scanner get integrated into the Overview though. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
13128
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 18:44:44 -
[28] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE? No, any form of automation is forbidden.
Tell that to the OP, who seems to use a script to generate this kind of thread
Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .
Bumble's Space Log
|
Memphis Baas
2256
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 19:17:23 -
[29] - Quote
Listen, we didn't have d-scan a number of years ago, CCP added it as a feature so you could see who was hunting you, and they specifically made it so it's not automated but rather you need to click the button to see who's coming.
So you can complain all you want, and try to use stupid arguments like "why isn't everything else click-spammy", but please take your complaints to the petition system because they're annoying us here. We're players. What do you expect us to do about it? Join you in your whining to CCP? **** no, we don't give a ****. |
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
420
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 19:29:11 -
[30] - Quote
I think the real reason why this exists is to demand attention.
When you are clicking the Dscan button every 5 seconds, you are not on Reddit, you are not chatting, you can only be so aware of so many things.
If Dscan cycled automatically, you would only have to keep the window up, keeping one eye on it. There is no required investment, and thus LESS people will be inattentive.
For EVE to work the tools that keep you safe have to be a bit faulty and cumbersome, otherwise people make less mistakes. The annoyance you feel as you endlessly dscan is exactly the tradeoff you give to be better than the other people. Those who can stay attentive survive, and the less barriers to attentiveness, the harder it is to catch people unaware.
You are correct, in real life you will have systems that start a claxon the second new people come within a prescribed boundary distance. You would have systems that automatically protected you, and perhaps better defenses, but that is because the design goal of building actual equipment is to maximize the abilities of the operator. The goal in EVE is to facilitate interesting and exciting events. The system is engineered as such that you have to work for your victory.
All that said, I would benefit greatly if Dscan became automatic, but long ago I accepted that it _does_ make the game a better, more interesting one, even if it breaks the omnipotent star-ship pilot fantasy just a wee bit.
Listen to On Grid Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
|
|
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
19527
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 19:36:49 -
[31] - Quote
WTB button autoclicking itself for Dscan. CCP, how much?
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6251
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 20:34:57 -
[32] - Quote
There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
Keno Skir
915
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 20:38:18 -
[33] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:All that said, I would benefit greatly if Dscan became automatic, but long ago I accepted that it _does_ make the game a better, more interesting one, even if it breaks the omnipotent star-ship pilot fantasy just a wee bit.
So much this ^
Well done Ashterothi for winning EvE, your medal is in the mail
(if you like i will literally award you a medal in memory of this day, so others might learn from your example)
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2596
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 20:38:36 -
[34] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Listen, we didn't have d-scan a number of years ago, CCP added it as a feature so you could see who was hunting you, and they specifically made it so it's not automated but rather you need to click the button to see who's coming.
Not to defend the OP's serial shiptoasting or anything, but, Dscan has been around at least as long as I have (hell, I remember when you could d-scan NPCs).
With respect to whether or not the functionality/playability/QOL of a given feature should be updated or improved, the fact that the feature didn't exist at some point isn't even in the same zipcode as an actual counterpoint. Furthermore, if, "[Feature] was specifically made in a certain way in its initial implementation," were a statement that actually mattered, we'd never be able to change anything. You'd still have a probe scanner that required flying around the system and dropping probes, then waiting entire minutes while they analyzed, the system scanner would be a manual thing with a 5AU range, and bombers would use crusie missiles.
I've never seen a d-scan suggestion I really liked, and it would almost certainly be a profoundly difficult change no matter what, but those were complete non-arguments.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Orlacc
950
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 20:41:34 -
[35] - Quote
Great question. Playing long?
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
|
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
39
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 20:51:24 -
[36] - Quote
Im not online to test but cant you just paper weight + hotkey for continues updates? |
Alana Packham
Wardec Solutions
19
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 21:43:55 -
[37] - Quote
there needs to be a difference between hi-sec and the rest of the game apart form people in hi-sec enjoying the game.
its called d-scan.
but if your in a wormhole, and I know its been a while for me, just look at the local chat box?
Its not that the Dev's have never been hi-sec miners, more that if they ever admitted it they'd be designing new pattern's in the dust as they sweep the car park. Would you employ someone who spends all day mining in hi?
|
PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
215
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 22:23:33 -
[38] - Quote
Because dscan is not a purely passive system.
Being good at it is actually a skill. I'm not talking the normal passive dscan checking as a defensive action, but when you're adjusting the cone and range to scout particular vectors, or timing it for use while in warp you don't really want it to be constantly updating.
I'm not particularly the best dscan wizard, but I have a guy in corp who is magical with that thing. Using only dscan, his camera, a couple bookmarks, and fast tackle I've seen him track down and grab safed up targets in wspace far faster and more efficiently than I thought possible.
When you combine it with probes, a really good scout can nail down someone's location so precisely that they can get a warpin on a target on the first pass, as they know where the target is within a 1AU radius before they even launch combat probes. Make no mistake, whether the scout knows it or not, doing that requires some pretty complex 3d math and spatial reasoning that goes far beyond APM. They're literally doing triangulation in their head on the fly.
Is it annoying to tap dscan to watch for probes and incoming ships? Sure. That's kind of the point. If you're using it defensively there should be a chance that you're going to miss something if you're doing lots of other actions.
Dscan isn't your eyeballs. It's more like the spaceship version of a tracking skill. Its something you want at least one person in the group to keep eyes on specifically so other people in the group can focus more directly on whatever they're doing. |
witchking42
UNFRL Fleet Operations
212
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 22:33:49 -
[39] - Quote
Problem solved :
https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2014/AnSME7.gif
Just need to map scan to the "Y" key |
Jen Outamon
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
0
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 23:13:46 -
[40] - Quote
"Doh! Stupid bird!" - heard somewhere in W space.
The OP said "There can be no lore aspect to this." I am not so sure. Perhaps there is. D-scan doesn't work like radar. It can't be based on radio waves, as it operates at speeds about 3500x faster then light. So it is based on some kind of magic, and the lore can make up all kinds of restrictions on how that magic works.
If it did work like radar, I also want to point out that not only should it be auto-updating, it should just provide a 3-d map (after all it can detect range and angle too, as can you by manually changing the settings). But it doesn't work that way. (And that is a good thing ! ) |
|
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
1061
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 23:23:25 -
[41] - Quote
i'm fine with manually mashing the d-scan hotkey.
what i'd really like is a little d-scan history: things that are new on this d-scan show up in green text. things that were there last d-scan and are still there are white. things that have dropped off d-scan since last mash are in red.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
|
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
422
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 03:11:36 -
[42] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Ashterothi wrote:All that said, I would benefit greatly if Dscan became automatic, but long ago I accepted that it _does_ make the game a better, more interesting one, even if it breaks the omnipotent star-ship pilot fantasy just a wee bit. So much this ^ Well done Ashterothi for winning EvE, your medal is in the mail (if you like i will literally award you a medal in memory of this day, so others might learn from your example)
I will just save this on my bio, thanks!
Listen to On Grid Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2005
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 03:40:25 -
[43] - Quote
Darth Magus wrote:Great idea!!! Lets add "refresh" button to overview and Local chat!
+ 1 !!!
(You are trolling and so am I)
But really - using D-scan (spamming it) is a big part of "know your surroundings gameplay"...
Otherwise we might as well dumb this down and just show all ships(players) in the system on your overview and get rid of D-scan all together, right?
Also remove cosmic anomalies - and put them all on the overview to easily warp to. Also mining lasers should automatically switch over to a new asteroid once one that you are currently mining is exhausted...right?
Right? Except mashing dscan does not make anything smarter.
Unless finding a static key mapping every few seconds is intelligent gameplay now.
Which it isn't.
And the funny thing is that "knowing your surroundings" gameplay works fine without button spamming. That's how local works for those that look at it. Those that don't lose situational awareness even without having to hit the button. Dscan would be no different.
And none of your examples are even comparable. They're just hyperbolic nonsense. The rest of the game presents situational information just fine on its own and no one complains. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 04:49:28 -
[44] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_
I am happy to hear that there is a technical reason for this rather than it being purposeful gameplay design.
The other argument besides technical reasons seems to be that the UI should be nerfed in this game so as to truly separate the wheat from the chaff. But they never explained 'why stop there?' Why only nerf the UI related to dscan, but nothing else?
What are you people.... pussies? I say let's truly separate the real men with hair on their chests from the boys in this game. For starters, nerf the local chat and the overview. At a minimum, add refresh buttons to them. But that's just a start, and a pussy start at that. Any self-respecting video gamer could spam-click three buttons in his sleep. I say we can do better. Much better.
For instance, what's with the propulsion in this game being so pussy automated? So care-bearish? I say nerf it so we can find out who the real men are in this game. You want your ship to move? Add a 'thrust' button to the UI. You mash it once and you get a millisecond of thrust. That means mashing it even once a second will have you moving at a ridiculous snail's pace. A real man should be able to quiver his hand and finger to mash the button at maybe 100 times a second, which will afford him a normal speed. NOW we're getting somewhere. NOW we're starting to separate some wheat from the pussy chaff. But we can do better. Much better.
For instance, what's with the main 'world view' in this game being so pussified? It's care-bearish to the extreme. Here's a much better idea. Get rid of it. We don't want pretty, carebear graphics - it's all for pussies, and it does nothing to separate the real men with hairy chests from the boys. I say replace all the graphics on the 'world view' screen with nothing but binary, scrolling upwards in real-time. What we want is just like that scene in The Matrix where the guy says "I don't even see the code anymore. All I see is blonde, brunette, redhead, etc." Well, that's what the non-carebear real men in this game should be able to do - decode the matrix on the fly. What I want to hear from real men is "I don't even see the code anymore. All I see is Raven, Bhaalgorn, etc."
And that's just off the top of my head. I mean come on! There's just SOOOO much more work that needs to be done in this area. Let's come up with a list of ideas in addition to the ones I proposed, and propose them in whatever appropriate area of the forums. |
Cajun Waffles
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 05:27:44 -
[45] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic.
You should become a dev. Haha
I hate spamming dscan and something like that would be epic.
|
Vigirr
36
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 05:41:14 -
[46] - Quote
Cajun Waffles wrote:The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic. You should become a dev. Haha I hate spamming dscan and something like that would be epic.
You don't understand, what he (and someone earlier posting "yes, please do this") means is about how 5 seconds isn't fast enough when it really matters, in that specific case you need to us it MUCH more often which if it would be automated would create even more strain on the server. So if automated it would make everyone Dcan all the time which would be a problem for the server to begin with and in times you actually need it the 5 second cycle would be too slow anyway.
This is another reason for my "don't ask for game design changes if you don't know enough on the subject" reply to the OP earlier. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 05:54:01 -
[47] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Cajun Waffles wrote:The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic. You should become a dev. Haha I hate spamming dscan and something like that would be epic. You don't understand, what he (and someone earlier posting "yes, please do this") means is about how 5 seconds isn't fast enough when it really matters, in that specific case you need to use it MUCH more often which if it would be automated would create even more strain on the server. So if automated it would make everyone Dscan all the time which would be a problem for the server to begin with and in times you actually need it the 5 second cycle would be too slow anyway.
1) While a module would be nicer than what we have, it is unnecessary. It just needs to be like local chat or overview. That seems to get updated automatically, often enough. No reason (besides possible technical reasons) why dscan shouldn't work the same way.
Quote: This is another reason for my "don't ask for game design changes if you don't know enough on the subject" reply to the OP earlier.
And you claim to "know enough on the subject?" Then tell me why it isn't a strain to calculate what's on the overview and who's in local chat, but it would be to calculate the dscan?
I can, and will, "ask for game design changes" (not that I actually did this - I questioned the reason behind the gameplay design) any time I feel like it. This is a forum. I can post whatever I want as long as it is within the rules. If you don't like what I post, you don't have to read, or respond. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10869
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 06:02:49 -
[48] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_ I am happy to hear that there is a technical reason for this rather than it being purposeful gameplay design. The other argument besides technical reasons seems to be that the UI should be nerfed in this game so as to truly separate the wheat from the chaff. But they never explained 'why stop there?' Why only nerf the UI related to dscan, but nothing else? What are you people.... pussies? Ignoring the hyperbole you vomited there for a second...
There are groups of the population who like things to be more manual and "difficult." They have many reasons for this;
- some like to master the "klunkiness" as a show of personal skill - some prefer to have more control over what they do and when they do it - some are simply comfortable with it as is - some simply find it more fun to work and play with things that go "oops"
At the same time though... if you make things too difficult and clunky, it stops being fun.
There is a sweet spot you have to hit. Not too automated... not too mechanical. Engaging, but not overly tedious. Something that rewards your input, but doesn't necessarily stop you from doing what you want to do.
A good example of this phenomena in the real world are people who like to work with more mechanical, more manual, and/or more "clunky" cars.
Automatic cars (ones where the car shifts gears for you) are arguably "better" than manual (see: "stick shift") cars as the car will pretty much handle the engine by itself. Little human input is needed beyond stepping on the gas pedal.
But some people PREFER manual cars. This is despite manual cars requiring constant attention, actual practice and training, and being more prone to "driver error."
So why do people subject themselves to such tedium? Why be dumb and not trade this anachronistic tech for something that is more efficient and automated?
In fact... if they were "REAL MEN" they would ditch the car altogether and ride horses! Those take skill! Stepping on a gas pedal is too carebearish for "REAL MEN!" Steering with a wheel is too automated... the test of true skill is to make an animal with its own mind to turn!!
(see! I can hyperbole too!)
Geronimo McVain explained it perfectly in his post on the first page. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6707089#post6707089)
Every game needs imperfections to reward activity and player knowledge. The "imperfection" of the D-Scan, technical or otherwise, is a good thing as it rewards those players who use it with diligence.
How did you Veterans start?
|
Vigirr
36
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 06:15:38 -
[49] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Then tell me why it isn't a strain to calculate what's on the overview and who's in local chat, but it would be to calculate the dscan?
It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play, Dscan is not and thus it's not automated. It's really not difficult to understand if you have a few braincells. |
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs Zulu People
0
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 06:33:29 -
[50] - Quote
I think if OP just throws away his computer and tries to play EVE by reading and inputting bits through his network wire, and then posts a video of winning a pvp fight by playing like this to Youtube, he would become really popular as a REAL MAN. |
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 07:24:12 -
[51] - Quote
Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain.
You don't know what you are talking about. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 07:30:23 -
[52] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:There is a sweet spot you have to hit. Not too automated... not too mechanical. Engaging, but not overly tedious. Something that rewards your input, but doesn't necessarily stop you from doing what you want to do.
...
Every game needs imperfections to reward activity and player knowledge. The "imperfection" of the D-Scan, technical or otherwise, is a good thing as it rewards those players who use it with diligence.
So why is this the 'sweet spot' for dscan but not for local chat? |
Vigirr
36
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 08:08:51 -
[53] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain. You don't know what you are talking about.
It's a strain that CCP, over the years, has accounted for and upgraded their servers and infrastructure for given that it's a basic UI element of the game, which Dscan isn't.
Beast of Revelations wrote:I'm a professional server developer.
lol |
guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 16:52:24 -
[54] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain. You don't know what you are talking about. It's a strain that CCP, over the years, has accounted for and upgraded their servers and infrastructure for given that it's a basic UI element of the game, which Dscan isn't.
Your aggressive tone and continuous stream of insults only show your lack of knowledge on the subject.
In our case, the dscan can be cached so that the server only sends information once for evey ship that changes grid. This is way less computing-intense than the overview : the overview sends every second the informations of the grid : modules cycling, speed vectors of the objects (drones, missiles, npcs, ships of course). Which is a LOT more computation than sending a cached data on request.
So, NO in the present case there is no "strain effect" to prevent dscan from being automated. Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6337
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 16:59:47 -
[55] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:Vigirr wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain. You don't know what you are talking about. It's a strain that CCP, over the years, has accounted for and upgraded their servers and infrastructure for given that it's a basic UI element of the game, which Dscan isn't. Your aggressive tone and continuous stream of insults only show your lack of knowledge on the subject. In our case, the dscan can be cached so that the server only sends information once for evey ship that changes grid. This is way less computing-intense than the overview : the overview sends every second the informations of the grid : modules cycling, speed vectors of the objects (drones, missiles, npcs, ships of course). Which is a LOT more computation than sending a cached data on request. So, NO in the present case there is no "strain effect" to prevent dscan from being automated. Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost.
D-scan requires you to check the range to _every_ item in system. Not just the ones on grid with you. That's a significantly higher number.
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 17:01:48 -
[56] - Quote
I update my previous post on what needs to be computed. basically, not it does not, on the opposite it only needs to store the data of grids relations and grid contents. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6337
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 17:05:34 -
[57] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:I update my previous post on what needs to be computed. basically, not it does not, on the opposite it only needs to store the data of grids relations and grid contents.
Whole bunch of changes required to make it work that way.
(Just a wee tip. I've spoken with people who actually know how this works on the server. I'm not talking out my ass on it.)
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 17:08:40 -
[58] - Quote
that's why I wrote "Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost."
There is no inherent strain in the dscan functionnality - and that is my point. People saying that dscan functionnality is a strain are wrong. The implementation can be, but with the grid system and the slow update of it( few grid appear, and few elements warp on average) the automation does not have to be painful. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
621
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 18:54:31 -
[59] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:that's why I wrote "Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost."
There is no inherent strain in the dscan functionnality - and that is my point. People saying that dscan functionnality is a strain are wrong. The implementation can be, but with the grid system and the slow update of it( few grid appear, and few elements warp on average) the automation does not have to be painful.
so you know more than the game designers then? ill wait for your game to be on par with EvE, til then, stfu!
Just Add Water
|
guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 19:20:33 -
[60] - Quote
So I know better than you may imagine. If you don't understand me, no point in even trying to answer : the topic is out of your capacities. |
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
621
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 19:33:56 -
[61] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:So I know better than you may imagine. If you don't understand me, no point in even trying to answer : the topic is out of your capacities.
fortunately this is not about me. again, if you're any good as you claim to be, make a game and implement all your cool ideas.
until then, stop embarrassing yourself and stfu.
Just Add Water
|
mkint
1333
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 19:53:39 -
[62] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:I don't understand fundamental mathematics.
1) everything has to be done server side, because otherwise people could extract data they aren't supposed to have with the client to cheat. 2) do yourself a favor and google ^n+1. Math doesn't get much simpler than that, nor much more complex, and it happens to represent the universe itself telling you you're wrong.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels
53
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:20:44 -
[63] - Quote
Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). I was literally gonna post this. You seen a green swirl go around your overlay letting you know it's scanning like an active radar when toggled and it would just repeat itself. |
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels
53
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:24:48 -
[64] - Quote
Cajun Waffles wrote:The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic. You should become a dev. Haha I hate spamming dscan and something like that would be epic. That's a fun idea. Equivalent of seeing a shark fun break the surface then submerge. You catch a glimpse of something then it's gone. Now you know it's there but your not sure where and you've gotta narrow the scan in dfferent directions and hope yiu catch it again. |
guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:53:05 -
[65] - Quote
mkint wrote:guigui lechat wrote:I don't understand fundamental mathematics. 1) everything has to be done server side, because otherwise people could extract data they aren't supposed to have with the client to cheat. 2) do yourself a favor and google ^n+1. Math doesn't get much simpler than that, nor much more complex, and it happens to represent the universe itself telling you you're wrong.
do yourself a favor and google what a cache is for. It's as simple as requesting "what has changed". |
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
426
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 23:56:42 -
[66] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:that's why I wrote "Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost."
There is no inherent strain in the dscan functionnality - and that is my point. People saying that dscan functionnality is a strain are wrong. The implementation can be, but with the grid system and the slow update of it( few grid appear, and few elements warp on average) the automation does not have to be painful.
I think this is an issue of expectation management.
Part one: You need to realize who you are working with.
CCP is an Icelandic based software development company that was founded to create EVE Online. Basically a bunch of guys dreamed up a space simulation game, published a pretty successful board game in Iceland, and used those funds to make EVE.
To say that EVE succeeded beyond the scope of its original conception is to put it mildly. The biggest issue is that the original foundations were built in stack-less python by relatively inexperienced coders for reasons that I am sure seemed absolutely essential at the time. All of this, in combination with the fact that game development is quite a bit more complex then it seems from the outside, and you have an issue where the player-base frequently miss-understand the complexity of the "simple" solutions they come up with.
Part two: Don't act like they are not working on it.
All that said, CCP has invested a huge effort into understanding, and remedying age old problems within the game itself. Building EVE 2 would be the biggest gamble of a company that has not historically done exceptional with their non-EVE efforts. What you see instead is a gradual molding of EVE from what it was, to the vision of the new design and development team that was brought in by the old guard to better realize the vision.
We have already seen monumental strides in the form of Brain in a Box, which lead to less lag, and command burst changes. We have better effects, more responsive servers, and cooler toys and fights then was possible prior. However many of these efforts take a _long_ time, and CCP is still horribly understaffed. I know it sucks, and I know it seems easy, but sometimes it just isn't.
Part Three: Dscan
Dscan is one of the most impactful tools in EVE. You can tell that by the dramatic difference living in WH space feels in compared to null, and changes to it would be dramatic to the foundations of the game. Such a change would be very controversial, and in spite of good messaging (something CCP hasn't been historically great at) could be rejected outright by the game community at large. This makes investment in a dscan change like proposed to be expensive, technically demanding, and risky, a bad combination. Most of these kinds of projects are done in CCP devs 20% time, but that time are for passion projects such as the new fitting tool, the refined hacking UI, etc.
So all in all, not terrible to give your input, and your perception. The above simply is why I don't think you war going to see CCP act on it. Although I do agree it does take away a bit of the "immortal space god" that I have to pound a key like a frantic baboon on cocaine.
Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!
|
u3pog
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
814
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 01:07:52 -
[67] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). I was literally gonna post this. You seen a green swirl go around your overlay letting you know it's scanning like an active radar when toggled and it would just repeat itself.
Kinda like the Marine's locator in Aliens movie? Oh, then I'd like to hear the sound and see the dot and the range, all of it. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
220
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 01:47:32 -
[68] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). I was literally gonna post this. You seen a green swirl go around your overlay letting you know it's scanning like an active radar when toggled and it would just repeat itself.
If you are going to sacrifice a mid-slot module for it, go for it.
I'll stay with the current mode myself. |
mkint
1337
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 03:23:07 -
[69] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:mkint wrote:guigui lechat wrote:I don't understand fundamental mathematics. 1) everything has to be done server side, because otherwise people could extract data they aren't supposed to have with the client to cheat. 2) do yourself a favor and google ^n+1. Math doesn't get much simpler than that, nor much more complex, and it happens to represent the universe itself telling you you're wrong. do yourself a favor and google what a cache is for. It's as simple as requesting "what has changed". Except it's not. It's figuring out what has changed for up to 3,000 players, calculating their distances from each other, and the direction, (without actually revealing their locations) and then broadcasting all of that information to each other, while 99% of that is changing every single server tick. Someone who doesn't suck at math: what's the equation for just the number of interactions there? 3,000^3,000? And that's per server tick. I don't think I have a calculator that will even count that high.
So, yeah, you have no idea what you are talking about, no idea how math works, no idea how d scan works, no idea how caches work, and really, you should be embarrassed. Maybe there is a clever solution to the issues with d scan (I myself am really bad at math, so I wouldn't know), but with your "why don't they just use magic?" responses, you really should leave this kind of discussion to grown ups.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
Memphis Baas
2621
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 04:41:36 -
[70] - Quote
IMO:
1. You mash the scan hotkey and get an image of who's out there as often as your finger allows.
or,
2. CCP decides to save some server CPU, and codes the D-scan to auto-update every 10 seconds, and we all immediately learn to launch the probes, group them on you, point your location, and recall the probes in under 10 seconds (totally possible) so you don't even see them.
Basically, don't expect CCP to make your life easier, and let you avoid PVP more easily. If anything, they'll nerf the D-scan with a 15-30 second scan delay to make PVP more likely.
And then you'll be sorry that you complained about "having to" click it every second.
In other words, click it every 15 seconds if every second is too much for you, but otherwise STFU. |
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 08:01:44 -
[71] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_ I am happy to hear that there is a technical reason for this rather than it being purposeful gameplay design. The other argument besides technical reasons seems to be that the UI should be nerfed in this game so as to truly separate the wheat from the chaff. But they never explained 'why stop there?' Why only nerf the UI related to dscan, but nothing else? What are you people.... pussies? Ignoring the hyperbole you vomited there for a second... There are groups of the population who like things to be more manual and "difficult." They have many reasons for this; - some like to master the "klunkiness" as a show of personal skill - some prefer to have more control over what they do and when they do it - some are simply comfortable with it as is - some simply find it more fun to work and play with things that go "oops" At the same time though... if you make things too difficult and clunky, it stops being fun. There is a sweet spot you have to hit. Not too automated... not too mechanical. Engaging, but not overly tedious. Something that rewards your input, but doesn't necessarily stop you from doing what you want to do. A good example of this phenomena in the real world are people who like to work with more mechanical, more manual, and/or more "clunky" cars. Automatic cars (ones where the car shifts gears for you) are arguably "better" than manual (see: "stick shift") cars as the car will pretty much handle the engine by itself. Little human input is needed beyond stepping on the gas pedal. But some people PREFER manual cars. This is despite manual cars requiring constant attention, actual practice and training, and being more prone to "driver error." So why do people subject themselves to such tedium? Why be dumb and not trade this anachronistic tech for something that is more efficient and automated? In fact... if they were "REAL MEN" they would ditch the car altogether and ride horses! Those take skill! Stepping on a gas pedal is too carebearish for "REAL MEN!" Steering with a wheel is too automated... the test of true skill is to make an animal with its own mind to turn!! (see! I can hyperbole too!) Geronimo McVain explained it perfectly in his post on the first page. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6707089#post6707089) Every game needs imperfections to reward activity and player knowledge. The "imperfection" of the D-Scan, technical or otherwise, is a good thing as it rewards those players who use it with diligence.
I always like your posts, a man of good manners and great insight.
This post is nothing to get upset about, a perfectly good point.
No manual flight, no manual targeting, no manual firing, no manual countermeasures, et.c. This game is as automated as it gets, no wonder OP would like to have the only manual thing automated too.
I miss my IS-7
|
Salvos Rhoska
1804
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 11:31:28 -
[72] - Quote
D-scan is oversimplified, ugly, impractical and annoying.
But its does what its supposed to.
Improving it is kind of like attempting to re-invent the wheel.
Id be ok with some cosmetic improvements to the interface, such as perhaps color coding for different categories of scanned objects and saveable range/angle presets.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 11:53:48 -
[73] - Quote
Personally i would go for that Aliens pulsething.
A 360-¦ pulse that pinpoints objects. And depending on your skilltraining and fittings it can give you more precise readings.
I miss my IS-7
|
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
336
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 12:05:29 -
[74] - Quote
Why not put a cooldown on d-scan so that it can only be used once every, lets say, 15 seconds?
Now nobody needs to spam anymore, and systems in eve will actually feel bigger. Auto-update would basically increase grid sizes to 14AU as you'd be able to instantly see anyone in that range.
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 12:05:30 -
[75] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:D-scan is oversimplified, ugly, impractical and annoying.
.
I cant see anything useful yet in any of these.
Keep an eye on Local, Overview and D-scan. Okay, but they are full of... nothing for me.
I miss my IS-7
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 12:08:20 -
[76] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Why not put a cooldown on d-scan so that it can only be used once every, lets say, 15 seconds?
Now nobody needs to spam anymore, and systems in eve will actually feel bigger. Auto-update would basically increase grid sizes to 14AU as you'd be able to instantly see anyone in that range.
That could be achieved in that pulsethingy.
It could be 20 secs for unskilled, unfitted.
And maybe 10 secs for full on level 5.
I miss my IS-7
|
Veronica Static
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 19:03:38 -
[77] - Quote
I think the real problem here isn't really Dscan, it's a lack of an actual radar. Dscan doesn't really need altering, I don't think. However, defensive radar, like is used on ships today, could easily be put in a small box on the screen, which operates like current radar systems. When you see blips pop up on the radar, 'then' you can either, 'bug out' or use Dscan to hunt someone down, and while it would be awesome to hear 'pings' when someone is on your radar, it would make afk activities too easy. (Different ships could have different radar ranges as well, could be skills around it, but none of that is really needed and adding a slowly spinning green line that blips on ships only, wouldn't really tax the servers) |
guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 19:17:43 -
[78] - Quote
mkint wrote:guigui lechat wrote:mkint wrote:guigui lechat wrote:I don't understand fundamental mathematics. 1) everything has to be done server side, because otherwise people could extract data they aren't supposed to have with the client to cheat. 2) do yourself a favor and google ^n+1. Math doesn't get much simpler than that, nor much more complex, and it happens to represent the universe itself telling you you're wrong. do yourself a favor and google what a cache is for. It's as simple as requesting "what has changed". Except it's not. It's figuring out what has changed for up to 3,000 players, calculating their distances from each other, and the direction, (without actually revealing their locations) and then broadcasting all of that information to each other, while 99% of that is changing every single server tick. Someone who doesn't suck at math: what's the equation for just the number of interactions there? 3,000^3,000? And that's per server tick. I don't think I have a calculator that will even count that high. So, yeah, you have no idea what you are talking about, no idea how math works, no idea how d scan works, no idea how caches work, and really, you should be embarrassed. Maybe there is a clever solution to the issues with d scan (I myself am really bad at math, so I wouldn't know), but with your "why don't they just use magic?" responses, you really should leave this kind of discussion to grown ups.
Please use the dscan so you know what we are talking about. |
P3ps1 Max
Hedion University Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 19:21:03 -
[79] - Quote
Dscan for ships "only" could be increased for x amount of time. Maybe you can activate dscan and it would remains active for a 30 window? I don't like spamming dscan either and for all things to require "active player input" it's dscan. |
Orgah
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 19:59:32 -
[80] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:There can be no lore aspect to this. In the real world, even our (relatively-speaking) low-tech airplanes - even el-cheapo ones - have continuously updating radars. The pilot doesn't have to keep reaching over and spamming the 'show objects' button while flying the plane.
The only reason I can come up with is some kind of misguided 'Starcraft' notion of having to click and spam buttons to expend APM to separate higher-skilled players from lower-skilled ones. Even in Starcraft, this notion is debated (although the spam-clicky side won), but I don't think there should even be a debate in this game, however. I don't think anyone thinks, or should think, of this game as a spam-clicky Starcrafty real-time tactical.
The rest of your post is pretty much in before lock, but, as someone who spent an year or so stuck on a low class hole - can't help myself. Here, space friend, have a space like.
Happy new year.
|
|
Doctor Mabuse
Republic University Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 23:12:27 -
[81] - Quote
Back around September 2009 CCP put a two second delay in the scanning cycle to prevent lag issues due to spam clicking, and that was just the people actively using the scanner; it caused a bit of an outrage at the time.
Now you want every ship in space anywhere to automatically spam click? |
Sugar Smacks
State War Academy Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 23:19:52 -
[82] - Quote
2017 and I still cant use D-scan in a station, and stations still don't have windows. So therefore when I leave a station I leave it totally blind.
That really rings on the realism factor right? Biggest structures in the game and they have the least amount of mechanics.
Most the game wont really care about D-scan because they use the lame "use local" mechanic, to tell who is around without ever having to do any work at all.
Does that sting of complete unrealism too?
It is funny how you have to make lore up that is completely unrealistic to explain some of EvE's issues.
EvE where a window is too complicated, but when you enter a system they magically know it from a billion KM away. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8112
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 23:42:56 -
[83] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:I understand why I, as the game currently stands, need to spam d-scan (at least if I'm in a wormhole or something). What I'm asking is, what is the GAMEPLAY DESIGN reason for this?
There can be no lore aspect to this. In the real world, even our (relatively-speaking) low-tech airplanes - even el-cheapo ones - have continuously updating radars. The pilot doesn't have to keep reaching over and spamming the 'show objects' button while flying the plane.
The only reason I can come up with is some kind of misguided 'Starcraft' notion of having to click and spam buttons to expend APM to separate higher-skilled players from lower-skilled ones. Even in Starcraft, this notion is debated (although the spam-clicky side won), but I don't think there should even be a debate in this game, however. I don't think anyone thinks, or should think, of this game as a spam-clicky Starcrafty real-time tactical.
If that is the reason it is designed this way (the game should be a spam-clicky RTT kind of game), why stop at d-scan? What about the local chat window? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the overview? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the window you are looking at the 'game world' through? Why not add a button to spam-click to update that? Come on, let's separate the men from the boys here, and let's separate the wheat from the chaff. If we are gonna have a spam-clicky game, don't do some pathetic, half-handed approach. Let's go all out with it.
If I'm missing something as far as the reason for this, pray tell. Or, if the reason is "we need pointless APM sinks," give me an argument as to why. Otherwise, come on guys. Update the damn d-scan. Turn it into some radar-esque type of thing showing blips, or at the very least, keep it the way it is but make it continuously updating like local chat or overview or anything else. The way this thing is designed now is just dumb. And yes, I'm quite good at hitting the stupid thing every 5 seconds without forgetting, I just think it's dumb.
Love that name.
You have to remember that this is Eve. And a good part of the player base subscribes to hunt other players. Anything you do that might make it harder to do that might cost money. Somebody ran the numbers and noted that people who hunt other people pay more subs than the hunted. So someone who quits after being ganked because they used D-Scan every 4 seconds instead of 2....
(it's possible to get someone with probes using a combination of D-Scan and probe fu IF and only IF they are not using D-scan every 2 seconds back to the post...)
...is not paying enough for subs because chances are he is not using alts.
Of course things get interesting watching predators feed on each other. They had to make the game free.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
101
|
Posted - 2017.01.02 21:16:28 -
[84] - Quote
Whatever the truth of the matter is about how much load it would be to make dscan the way it should be, I think one thing could certainly be done without any added load (or, much).
Make a radar-like box or instrument which shows ships in local chat. The server is already calculating it. So just send it to the client and have it display it. |
mkint
1342
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 00:28:22 -
[85] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Whatever the truth of the matter is about how much load it would be to make dscan the way it should be, I think one thing could certainly be done without any added load (or, much).
Make a radar-like box or instrument which shows ships in local chat. The server is already calculating it. So just send it to the client and have it display it. Not sure what you're suggesting... that Local automatically shows the ship everyone is in? That would be Bad. Especially considering there is (or was?) a strong player movement to remove Local entirely, or at least set it to recent speakers like w space. Both extremes would be too much for most situations in the game, leaving us pretty good where we're at. And if you try to limit it to have a d-scan type functionality with a local update frequency, that's EXACTLY the thing that would wreck server performance because it has to calculate the information especial for each client, so that the client can't use data interception to gather intel they shouldn't have. (i.e. cheat, and there will always be somebody who's better at cheating than you, so you'd end up with something similar to Malcanis Law.)
I agree that the UI needs to basically be rewritten entirely from scratch for EVE to have any chance at all of surviving another 10 years. Intel channels and situational awareness would definitely need to be the central part of that. However, at this point the status quo is better than a halfassed change that ends up just making things worse, which is the far likelier thing to happen given CCP's track record on important things like this. There's a reason the best EVE maps are the ones CCP has nothing to do with.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
102
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 02:44:15 -
[86] - Quote
mkint wrote: Not sure what you're suggesting... that Local automatically shows the ship everyone is in?
Basically a d-scan limited to local, so I guess my answer is 'yes.'
Why is that? You can already get the information if you hit dscan. The argument for not doing dscan 'correctly' is that there would be too much server load. Well this is a scaled-down version that would not entail additional server load, because the server already calculates local. So just make a continuously updated local dscan.
Quote:And if you try to limit it to have a d-scan type functionality with a local update frequency, that's EXACTLY the thing that would wreck server performance because it has to calculate the information especial for each client, so that the client can't use data interception to gather intel they shouldn't have. (i.e. cheat, and there will always be somebody who's better at cheating than you, so you'd end up with something similar to Malcanis Law.)
I don't really know what you are saying here. Perhaps you can explain it better? Or perhaps you aren't understanding me. I'm saying that local is already being calculated - PERIOD. So no additional server load. |
Diane Persis
2
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 03:14:27 -
[87] - Quote
We should make some more threads:
- gameplay reasons behind having to enable your weapons for each new target, it's so silly it should be automated. It's not the middle ages you know - gameplay reasons behind probes, why not just make them like anomalies? - gameplay reasons behind ratting, it's just too much effort so give us free isk? - gameplay reasons behind sov, why all this effort? |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8133
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 03:16:31 -
[88] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Whatever the truth of the matter is about how much load it would be to make dscan the way it should be, I think one thing could certainly be done without any added load (or, much).
Make a radar-like box or instrument which shows ships in local chat. The server is already calculating it. So just send it to the client and have it display it.
In the 1990s I worked on electronic systems designed in the 1970s that would tell a fighter pilot if something, anything, was transmitting any signals that the funny little wideband on antenna on the back of the plane (usually a little white or gray dome) was was picking up. It had a display of "wingforms" to show what was transmitting, and it had a "threat library" as well. The ;pilot did not have to do anything beyond just switching it on.
But that technology was apparently lost between the 1970s and 23000 years into the future.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
70
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 03:42:19 -
[89] - Quote
Realism in a video game?
Fuckoff. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
623
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 03:53:31 -
[90] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:mkint wrote: Not sure what you're suggesting... that Local automatically shows the ship everyone is in?
Basically a d-scan limited to local, so I guess my answer is 'yes.' Why is that? You can already get the information if you hit dscan. The argument for not doing dscan 'correctly' is that there would be too much server load. Well this is a scaled-down version that would not entail additional server load, because the server already calculates local. So just make a continuously updated local dscan. Quote:And if you try to limit it to have a d-scan type functionality with a local update frequency, that's EXACTLY the thing that would wreck server performance because it has to calculate the information especial for each client, so that the client can't use data interception to gather intel they shouldn't have. (i.e. cheat, and there will always be somebody who's better at cheating than you, so you'd end up with something similar to Malcanis Law.) I don't really know what you are saying here. Perhaps you can explain it better? Or perhaps you aren't understanding me. I'm saying that local is already being calculated - PERIOD. So no additional server load.
and make it boring?
you carebears just want to fck up everything up. you are assuming that the only use of D-Scan is how you use it, set it 360 degress, 1AU, spam the sh!it out of it and warp when you get something. well, some of us actually use it to hunt WTs, we actually try to change the range to pin point the location of the enemy fleet.
with this, another mechanic should be introduced to retain the functionality i just mentioned above.
Just Add Water
|
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6347
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 04:17:59 -
[91] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Whatever the truth of the matter is about how much load it would be to make dscan the way it should be, I think one thing could certainly be done without any added load (or, much).
Make a radar-like box or instrument which shows ships in local chat. The server is already calculating it. So just send it to the client and have it display it. In the 1990s I worked on electronic systems designed in the 1970s that would tell a fighter pilot if something, anything, was transmitting any signals that the funny little wideband on antenna on the back of the plane (usually a little white or gray dome) was was picking up. It had a display of "wingforms" to show what was transmitting, and it had a "threat library" as well. The ;pilot did not have to do anything beyond just switching it on. But that technology was apparently lost between the 1970s and 23000 years into the future.
It could scan out to 14 AU in real time? I'm amazed.
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8140
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 07:29:28 -
[92] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Whatever the truth of the matter is about how much load it would be to make dscan the way it should be, I think one thing could certainly be done without any added load (or, much).
Make a radar-like box or instrument which shows ships in local chat. The server is already calculating it. So just send it to the client and have it display it. In the 1990s I worked on electronic systems designed in the 1970s that would tell a fighter pilot if something, anything, was transmitting any signals that the funny little wideband on antenna on the back of the plane (usually a little white or gray dome) was was picking up. It had a display of "wingforms" to show what was transmitting, and it had a "threat library" as well. The ;pilot did not have to do anything beyond just switching it on. But that technology was apparently lost between the 1970s and 23000 years into the future. It could scan out to 14 AU in real time? I'm amazed.
Total range was classified. All I know is that at certain times of the day we could not switch it on when Soviet satellites were known to be overhead.
It did not always work well. I recall an Iraqi TV station that kept coming up wingform for a SAM site. We did once pick up Iranian F14 from Turkey. (yes they have F14s)
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3256
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 09:17:40 -
[93] - Quote
Allowing key binding for dscan was a mistake IMO.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tyrana McBitch
Lisnave Spaceship Samurai
27
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 13:05:07 -
[94] - Quote
I never spam dscan, only every 30 seconds to a minute. I also check for probes. If some one is in system & no probes pop up, I know I am safe ish. It also ads a bit of safety to an otherwise one sided winning situation if you didn't have a dscan.
Also it adds actually playing the game. I cant stand point & click games. They are lazy. Its nice to feel in control or your ship in a given situation. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
920
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 14:37:32 -
[95] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:You didn't explain why this wonderful button-mashing spam mechanic shouldn't also be added to overview, to local chat, etc.
Local chat needs to go away anyway. There's way too much free intel in the game.
Every game involves "button mashing". In a FPS, you "mash buttons" to shoot a gun. Why doesn't the game do it for you? |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 15:10:48 -
[96] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:You didn't explain why this wonderful button-mashing spam mechanic shouldn't also be added to overview, to local chat, etc. Local chat needs to go away anyway. There's way too much free intel in the game.
That's beside the point. Assuming local chat needs to stay, why not add the wonderful button-mashing mechanic to that too? And overview isn't going anywhere... why can't we add the wonderful button-mashing mechanic to that? What makes overview and local chat different?
Quote:Every game involves "button mashing". In a FPS, you "mash buttons" to shoot a gun. Why doesn't the game do it for you?
Dumb comparison. Button mashing is fine if it is an on-demand thing you need, that isn't always wanted or needed in all circumstances - like firing a gun. But the screen should always automatically be refreshed - you shouldn't need to sit there and mash a button constantly to have the screen refreshed. Same for something like scan, overview, local chat, whatever.
You can compare it to driving a car. Steering wheel and gearshift and gas and brake should be 'buttons' in the sense that those are the controls for your car. But the speedometer should not be a button that needs to be mashed to get the refresh on how fast you are going. It should always be automatically updated.
I do wonder about the average intelligence level on these forums when this kind of simple concept cannot automatically be understood. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
920
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 15:18:23 -
[97] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:That's beside the point. Assuming local chat needs to stay, why not add the wonderful button-mashing mechanic to that too? And overview isn't going anywhere... why can't we add the wonderful button-mashing mechanic to that? What makes overview and local chat different?
what? I'm not assuming local chat needs to stay. That was my point. Learn to read. also, lowering yourself to use reductio ad absurdum won't make anyone take you seriously in any conversation.
Quote:Dumb comparison. Button mashing is fine if it is an on-demand thing you need, that isn't always wanted or needed in all circumstances - like firing a gun. But the screen should always automatically be refreshed - you shouldn't need to sit there and mash a button constantly to have the screen refreshed. Same for something like scan, overview, local chat, whatever.
You can compare it to driving a car. Steering wheel and gearshift and gas and brake should be 'buttons' in the sense that those are the controls for your car. But the speedometer should not be a button that needs to be mashed to get the refresh on how fast you are going. It should always be automatically updated.
I do wonder about the average intelligence level on these forums when this kind of simple concept cannot automatically be understood.
I also wonder about the intelligence of people. d-scan isn't always needed in game. You get rewarded for putting more effort in, so you have to hit a key to get more intel through d-scan. This isn't rocket science. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 15:34:24 -
[98] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:That's beside the point. Assuming local chat needs to stay, why not add the wonderful button-mashing mechanic to that too? And overview isn't going anywhere... why can't we add the wonderful button-mashing mechanic to that? What makes overview and local chat different? what? I'm not assuming local chat needs to stay. That was my point. Learn to read. also, lowering yourself to use reductio ad absurdum won't make anyone take you seriously in any conversation. Quote:Dumb comparison. Button mashing is fine if it is an on-demand thing you need, that isn't always wanted or needed in all circumstances - like firing a gun. But the screen should always automatically be refreshed - you shouldn't need to sit there and mash a button constantly to have the screen refreshed. Same for something like scan, overview, local chat, whatever.
You can compare it to driving a car. Steering wheel and gearshift and gas and brake should be 'buttons' in the sense that those are the controls for your car. But the speedometer should not be a button that needs to be mashed to get the refresh on how fast you are going. It should always be automatically updated.
I do wonder about the average intelligence level on these forums when this kind of simple concept cannot automatically be understood. I also wonder about the intelligence of people. d-scan isn't always needed in game. You get rewarded for putting more effort in, so you have to hit a key to get more intel through d-scan. This isn't rocket science.
Yeah, just what I thought - absolutely nothing constructive or intelligent to say whatsoever, and could not answer my questions, most likely because you couldn't even understand them. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
920
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 15:40:32 -
[99] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Yeah, just what I thought - absolutely nothing constructive or intelligent to say whatsoever, and could not answer my questions, most likely because you couldn't even understand them.
You do realize insulting people more experienced in the game than you when they disagree doesn't help, right?
Are you 12 years old? |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 15:53:53 -
[100] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Yeah, just what I thought - absolutely nothing constructive or intelligent to say whatsoever, and could not answer my questions, most likely because you couldn't even understand them. You do realize insulting people more experienced in the game than you when they disagree doesn't help, right?
1) Experience with the game has absolutely nothing to do with rational thought, reading comprehension, IQ, etc. We aren't talking about an issue here that has anything to do with experience. I'm not asking "how do I do such-and-such?" Or "what's the best way to approach X?"
2) Noting that you have nothing intelligent to say and cannot answer questions is not an insult. Well, it is, but it's completely incidental. It's merely noting observations and facts.
3) It's a logical fallacy (appeal to authority) to cite your experience or anything else in the context of an argument. You can either make an intelligent rational point, and respond to such, or you can't. Period. Paragraph. End of story. |
|
Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
1585
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 15:57:39 -
[101] - Quote
A "Pulse D-Scan" option would have to be limited in several ways to make sure not everyone would use it all the time:
-Pulsing D-Scan could increase the ships signature a lot so probing and targeting a pulsing ship would get much easier.(Like Sonar/Radar can reveal ones positon, my favorite option) -Pulsing D-Scan could require cap -Pulsing D-Scan could be limited to every X Secounds -To make Pulsing D-Scan not a performance problem in large battles it could be made expensive by requireing an rig or charges
|
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
920
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 16:22:27 -
[102] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:1) Experience with the game has absolutely nothing to do with rational thought, reading comprehension, IQ, etc. We aren't talking about an issue here that has anything to do with experience. I'm not asking "how do I do such-and-such?" Or "what's the best way to approach X?"
2) Noting that you have nothing intelligent to say and cannot answer questions is not an insult. Well, it is, but it's completely incidental. It's merely noting observations and facts.
3) It's a logical fallacy (appeal to authority) to cite your experience or anything else in the context of an argument. You can either make an intelligent rational point, and respond to such, or you can't. Period. Paragraph. End of story.
Given how many logical fallacies you have used so far, you can't really use that excuse...
Experience with the game has everything to do with it when you are...suggesting changes to the game. Gasp! I just used rational thought!
We already have enough free, easy intel. We don't need to change d-scan to make it even easier. d-scan takes effort, the overview and local don't. Everything is pretty well balanced, other than local chat in sov null. You do understand what balance in a game means, yeah? Are you capable of conversing like an adult?
Yet another thread by Beast , aka "anyone who disagrees with my poorly thought out ideas isn't intelligent" |
Hipqo
Tyde8
157
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 17:02:44 -
[103] - Quote
Reading this entire thread WILL give you all kinds of cancer (videogame cancer ofc) and most of what is said basically boils down to: "CCP, give me the option to get all the intel, while being afk, because its supposed to be a super fancy spaceship game!! Why am i even flying the ship manually in the first place??!!!??! AUTOMATE EVERYTHING!!" And thats exactly what it, its a game..... The least you can do is click a button and actively participate in the game.
While we are at it, shouldnt we just remove manual flight completely? Because hey, its in the future and we got computers to calculate all kinds of crap for us, so theres no need for us to manually click gates/wormholes or even dobbel click in space, it should be automatic because of the giant computer im flying around in!!
I cant figure out if im entertained or i feel sorry for the OP. Either way, CCP AUTOMATE ALL THE THINGS ASAP!!!
A life is best lived, to not step into your grave in a well preserved body. Instead, to slide in side ways, all battered and bruised, screamming, "Holy SH**! What a ride!"
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 17:10:59 -
[104] - Quote
Hipqo wrote:Reading this entire thread WILL give you all kinds of cancer (videogame cancer ofc) and most of what is said basically boils down to: "CCP, give me the option to get all the intel, while being afk, because its supposed to be a super fancy spaceship game!! Why am i even flying the ship manually in the first place??!!!??! AUTOMATE EVERYTHING!!" And thats exactly what it, its a game..... The least you can do is click a button and actively participate in the game.
While we are at it, shouldnt we just remove manual flight completely? Because hey, its in the future and we got computers to calculate all kinds of crap for us, so theres no need for us to manually click gates/wormholes or even dobbel click in space, it should be automatic because of the giant computer im flying around in!!
I cant figure out if im entertained or i feel sorry for the OP. Either way, CCP AUTOMATE ALL THE THINGS ASAP!!!
I'd say this was a straw man argument, except that it's worse than that. You don't even know what a straw man argument is, and either way, you didn't intend to make a straw man argument because that would imply that you understood the issues and knew what you were talking about, which you don't. No, you just blathered a bunch of gobbledigook which pertained to nothing that this thread is about.
I thought trolls were bad, but now I'm dealing with low-grade morons. I think I prefer trolls. |
Hipqo
Tyde8
158
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 17:18:02 -
[105] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Hipqo wrote:Reading this entire thread WILL give you all kinds of cancer (videogame cancer ofc) and most of what is said basically boils down to: "CCP, give me the option to get all the intel, while being afk, because its supposed to be a super fancy spaceship game!! Why am i even flying the ship manually in the first place??!!!??! AUTOMATE EVERYTHING!!" And thats exactly what it, its a game..... The least you can do is click a button and actively participate in the game.
While we are at it, shouldnt we just remove manual flight completely? Because hey, its in the future and we got computers to calculate all kinds of crap for us, so theres no need for us to manually click gates/wormholes or even dobbel click in space, it should be automatic because of the giant computer im flying around in!!
I cant figure out if im entertained or i feel sorry for the OP. Either way, CCP AUTOMATE ALL THE THINGS ASAP!!! I'd say this was a straw man argument, except that it's worse than that. You don't even know what a straw man argument is, and either way, you didn't intend to make a straw man argument because that would imply that you understood the issues and knew what you were talking about, which you don't. No, you just blathered a bunch of gobbledigook which pertained to nothing that this thread is about. I thought trolls were bad, but now I'm dealing with low-grade morons. I think I prefer trolls.
So i did the same thing as you did? Cool..
A life is best lived, to not step into your grave in a well preserved body. Instead, to slide in side ways, all battered and bruised, screamming, "Holy SH**! What a ride!"
|
mkint
1343
|
Posted - 2017.01.03 20:13:27 -
[106] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Sonya Corvinus wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Yeah, just what I thought - absolutely nothing constructive or intelligent to say whatsoever, and could not answer my questions, most likely because you couldn't even understand them. You do realize insulting people more experienced in the game than you when they disagree doesn't help, right? 1) Experience with the game has absolutely nothing to do with rational thought, reading comprehension, IQ, etc. We aren't talking about an issue here that has anything to do with experience. I'm not asking "how do I do such-and-such?" Or "what's the best way to approach X?" 2) Noting that you have nothing intelligent to say and cannot answer questions is not an insult. Well, it is, but it's completely incidental. It's merely noting observations and facts. 3) It's a logical fallacy (appeal to authority) to cite your experience or anything else in the context of an argument. You can either make an intelligent rational point, and respond to such, or you can't. Period. Paragraph. End of story.
Confirmed troll. All previous posts retroactively irrelevant.
Experience = more tools to understand the nuances of the "problem." Failing to understand the value of experience = you obviously have ZERO experience in literally anything. The person calling you 12 must have been generous. I'd guess 4.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 00:26:13 -
[107] - Quote
mkint wrote: Confirmed troll. All previous posts retroactively irrelevant.
Experience = more tools to understand the nuances of the "problem." Failing to understand the value of experience = you obviously have ZERO experience in literally anything. The person calling you 12 must have been generous. I'd guess 4.
Arguing that a logical fallacy is not a logical fallacy, LOL. Too funny! I'm quite amused :) I guess the antics of... the 'challenged' people I run across in my online escapades never cease to amaze me. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
923
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 00:38:23 -
[108] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Arguing that a logical fallacy is not a logical fallacy, LOL. Too funny! I'm quite amused :) I guess the antics of... the 'challenged' people I run across in my online escapades never cease to amaze me.
Thread reported as a troll thread. If you're going to do what you are doing here, be more subtle. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 01:18:24 -
[109] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote: Thread reported as a troll thread. If you're going to do what you are doing here, be more subtle.
Yeah, the last recourse of a forum poster who can't tolerate a difference of opinion - report the post.
Report whatever the hell you want to report, I couldn't care less. |
mkint
1344
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 01:54:09 -
[110] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:mkint wrote: Confirmed troll. All previous posts retroactively irrelevant.
Experience = more tools to understand the nuances of the "problem." Failing to understand the value of experience = you obviously have ZERO experience in literally anything. The person calling you 12 must have been generous. I'd guess 4.
Arguing that a logical fallacy is not a logical fallacy, LOL. Too funny! I'm quite amused :) I guess the antics of... the 'challenged' people I run across in my online escapades never cease to amaze me. Arguing with a toddler troll I guess, but...
It never was a "I played longer, therefore I am right and you are wrong" which is the crux of it as a logical fallacy. The point here is "you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, how about you actually learn the ins and outs of the systems you've been babbling incoherently about from the beginning."
Also, this troll thread is in the wrong subsection anyway. Should be in F&I where it can be properly ignored. I guess I'll always be able to say ib4l.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 02:18:54 -
[111] - Quote
mkint wrote: I guess I'll always be able to say ib4l.
This thread has been here for weeks or longer without being locked, and was perfectly fine before the trolls showed up, which they often do. I've gotten many likes from this thread. So the only reason it would be locked is a because couple of troll posters run to Mommy and cry "Waaaah! Some post offends me! Shut it down!"
So go ahead and run to Mommy and cry. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less. Most anything of importance which needed to be said has probably already been said. And if I want to start up another thread, I'll just start up another one. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8144
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 02:37:56 -
[112] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:mkint wrote: I guess I'll always be able to say ib4l.
This thread has been here for weeks or longer without being locked, and was perfectly fine before the trolls showed up, which they often do. I've gotten many likes from this thread. So the only reason it would be locked is a because couple of troll posters run to Mommy and cry "Waaaah! Some post offends me! Shut it down!" So go ahead and run to Mommy and cry. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less. Most anything of importance which needed to be said has probably already been said. And if I want to start up another thread, I'll just start up another one.
I would expect someone with a name like that to have no fcks to give.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
624
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 04:46:13 -
[113] - Quote
again OP, your suggestion/question/OP is limited because your experience on the use of D-Scan is limited to how a carebear such as yourself use it only.
try learning the other uses of it and you'l understand why it's needed to be manually clicked.
Just Add Water
|
guigui lechat
the no fock given
4
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 10:24:39 -
[114] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:again OP, your suggestion/question/OP is limited because your experience on the use of D-Scan is limited to how a carebear such as yourself use it only.
try learning the other uses of it and you'l understand why it's needed to be manually clicked.
I reported your post for insults. Your choice of aggressive terms may make you feel you are superior but this thread was not for ****-size competition, so go play this game somewhere else.
The issue is precisely that he does not understand why it's needed to be manually clicked BECAUSE YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN. The only correct answer we had so far is "it creates possibility of failures so PvP is possible" - every thing else is filled with aggressivity, which of course prevents any form of discussion.
People should learn to only add comment that actually provide an answer - and only when they can be not aggressive. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
631
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 11:36:20 -
[115] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:again OP, your suggestion/question/OP is limited because your experience on the use of D-Scan is limited to how a carebear such as yourself use it only.
try learning the other uses of it and you'l understand why it's needed to be manually clicked. I reported your post for insults. Your choice of aggressive terms may make you feel you are superior but this thread was not for ****-size competition, so go play this game somewhere else. The issue is precisely that he does not understand why it's needed to be manually clicked BECAUSE YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN. The only correct answer we had so far is "it creates possibility of failures so PvP is possible" - every thing else is filled with aggressivity, which of course prevents any form of discussion. People should learn to only add comment that actually provide an answer - and only when they can be not aggressive.
ill go with your corp name, so fck off, dont give a sht.
Just Add Water
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
104
|
Posted - 2017.01.04 13:41:51 -
[116] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote: I reported your post for insults. Your choice of aggressive terms may make you feel you are superior but this thread was not for ****-size competition, so go play this game somewhere else.
The issue is precisely that he does not understand why it's needed to be manually clicked BECAUSE YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN. The only correct answer we had so far is "it creates possibility of failures so PvP is possible" - every thing else is filled with aggressivity, which of course prevents any form of discussion.
People should learn to only add comment that actually provide an answer - and only when they can be not aggressive.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
To summarize for the few non-trolls and the few readers with IQ and reading comprehension levels above 'low-grade moron,' we have been told:
1) Technical limitation (server load, etc).
We accept the concept of a technical limitation as an answer. We merely questioned whether it was a technical limitation because of implementation (algorithms, design, etc), and whether it could possibly be coded differently or better.
2) So 'carebears' don't ruin the game by having everything automated so that the game plays itself.
Of course it was never explained 'why stop there?' For instance, why not make the overview updated by manual spam-click? Why not local chat? Why not the entire display itself? No answer was provided, except 'don't question us, we have more experience' or other logical fallacies.
We tried to explain that there's a difference between a button that is needed for CONTROL - for instance on a gun or a ship - and a button that is not there for control and is therefore nothing but a stupid 'spam click' mechanic - for instance the current dscan. We tried to use a car as an analogy. It would be fine to wire up the gearshift, the steering wheel, and the gas and brake pedals to buttons - those are needed for CONTROL. But it wouldn't be fine to wire the speedometer up to a button that needed to be spam-clicked - you shouldn't need to control the speedometer, and the information it presents should be automatic. For our trouble, this analogy was either ignored, we were attacked and trolled, we were accused of being 'carebears' who wanted to automate the playing of the game, or again the fallacy of 'experience' was invoked.
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
635
|
Posted - 2017.01.05 03:59:56 -
[117] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:
We tried to explain that there's a difference between a button that is needed for CONTROL - for instance on a gun or a ship - and a button that is not there for control and is therefore nothing but a stupid 'spam click' mechanic - for instance the current dscan. We tried to use a car as an analogy. It would be fine to wire up the gearshift, the steering wheel, and the gas and brake pedals to buttons - those are needed for CONTROL. But it wouldn't be fine to wire the speedometer up to a button that needed to be spam-clicked - you shouldn't need to control the speedometer, and the information it presents should be automatic. For our trouble, this analogy was either ignored, we were attacked and trolled, we were accused of being 'carebears' who wanted to automate the playing of the game, or again the fallacy of 'experience' was invoked.
OP for your convenience i'll use your own explanation, DSCAN is used as a CONTROL, therefore it shouldn't be automated.
if CCP will make it automated, people and me personally will ask CCP a mechanic that will allow me to do what the dscan can do today.
Just Add Water
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
34728
|
Posted - 2017.01.05 12:15:54 -
[118] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:You can hotkey d-scan now. It's easier than ever. why... did this thread continue beyond post #2. Is there a gameplay reason for this?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
34728
|
Posted - 2017.01.05 12:18:11 -
[119] - Quote
Are you sure it's not just because you weren't within range to execute this function?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
105
|
Posted - 2017.01.05 14:05:29 -
[120] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote: OP for your convenience i'll use your own explanation, DSCAN is used as a CONTROL, therefore it shouldn't be automated.
if CCP will make it automated, people and me personally will ask CCP a mechanic that will allow me to do what the dscan can do today.
Naturally, the ability to narrow the focus into a cone, and adjust the range, should be manual. Nobody is suggesting that should be taken away or changed. We are talking about the need to spam-click a stupid button for no good reason. |
|
Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
3044
|
Posted - 2017.01.05 17:15:08 -
[121] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:guigui lechat wrote:Vigirr wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Vigirr wrote: It is a strain but it's needed for normal game play
So it's a strain, but the game apparently works just fine? Then it isn't a strain. You don't know what you are talking about. It's a strain that CCP, over the years, has accounted for and upgraded their servers and infrastructure for given that it's a basic UI element of the game, which Dscan isn't. Your aggressive tone and continuous stream of insults only show your lack of knowledge on the subject. In our case, the dscan can be cached so that the server only sends information once for evey ship that changes grid. This is way less computing-intense than the overview : the overview sends every second the informations of the grid : modules cycling, speed vectors of the objects (drones, missiles, npcs, ships of course). Which is a LOT more computation than sending a cached data on request. So, NO in the present case there is no "strain effect" to prevent dscan from being automated. Maybe it is poorly implemented and CCP doesn't want to spend time on it, but the present functionnalities could be automated with no cost. D-scan requires you to check the range to _every_ item in system. Not just the ones on grid with you. That's a significantly higher number.
The overview is automated, scan further then 14 AU in the system and will in many case show more unique object than the D-SCAN with much more info being displayed on top of that but does not cripple the server somehow. |
guigui lechat
the no fock given
5
|
Posted - 2017.01.05 20:16:31 -
[122] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:You can hotkey d-scan now. It's easier than ever. why... did this thread continue beyond post #2. Is there a gameplay reason for this? To make you cry, basically. You look like a child crying and getting angry to get what he wants, and that's funny.
Also, no the Dscan does not require to check EVERY elements. All those wich are in a grid too far away can be forgoten. |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
2021
|
Posted - 2017.01.05 22:07:49 -
[123] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_ The thing is that you don't need to touch EVERY object: you have filters. And no one uses d-scan without them. Another one: the game already checks whether objects are in the same grid or not. It can be completely separate system though..... But they NEED to touch every object in system to check if it enters or leaves some grid. And for this you NEED to calculate distance. And talking about _everyone_: it's not that everyone uses d-scan. Even in big fleet battles it is usually few people that work with it (99% of participants are 'F1 monkeys' anyway).
My bet is that d-scan is just another feature from list "let's make it somehow and forget for ages". It just needs some time to get attention of some 'creative' person who will make it unusable but pretty looking....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6354
|
Posted - 2017.01.05 23:52:42 -
[124] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:There's also a technical reason for it.
D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.
Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_ The thing is that you don't need to touch EVERY object: you have filters. And no one uses d-scan without them. Another one: the game already checks whether objects are in the same grid or not. It can be completely separate system though..... But they NEED to touch every object in system to check if it enters or leaves some grid. And for this you NEED to calculate distance. And talking about _everyone_: it's not that everyone uses d-scan. Even in big fleet battles it is usually few people that work with it (99% of participants are 'F1 monkeys' anyway). My bet is that d-scan is just another feature from list "let's make it somehow and forget for ages". It just needs some time to get attention of some 'creative' person who will make it unusable but pretty looking.... Thing is, the filters aren't applied when you scan. They're applied on display. Try scanning, then changing the filter back and forth. It's instant. (and the data doesn't change)
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
34729
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 01:04:06 -
[125] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:You can hotkey d-scan now. It's easier than ever. why... did this thread continue beyond post #2. Is there a gameplay reason for this? To make you cry, basically. You look like a child crying and getting angry to get what he wants, and that's funny. Also, no the Dscan does not require to check EVERY elements. All those wich are in a grid too far away can be forgoten. I reported your post for insults. Your choice of aggressive terms may make you feel you are superior but this thread was not for ****-size competition, so go play this game somewhere else.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
guigui lechat
the no fock given
5
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 01:30:04 -
[126] - Quote
my biggest issue is that, like the cloak, I don't get the lore behind it. It seems to me completely counter-realistic. Like the need to be at 75% speed to warp, the guns that hits instantly (only lasers should) |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 02:37:22 -
[127] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: I reported your post for insults. Your choice of aggressive terms may make you feel you are superior but this thread was not for ****-size competition, so go play this game somewhere else.
Come on, quit with the 'reports' please. Makes it sound like you are a grade school kid 'telling' on people. Don't know how old you are, but grown-ups should handle their own business. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 02:39:27 -
[128] - Quote
guigui lechat wrote:my biggest issue is that, like the cloak, I don't get the lore behind it. It seems to me completely counter-realistic. Like the need to be at 75% speed to warp, the guns that hits instantly (only lasers should)
Totally agree with lasers. I've thought about this many times. All other guns besides lasers should have a delay. Railguns the fastest, missiles next, shells the slowest. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
34729
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 02:58:06 -
[129] - Quote
okay but what would the gameplay reason be
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 03:55:27 -
[130] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:okay but what would the gameplay reason be
What... having lasers hit instantly, but other weapons not hit instantly? Fodder for another thread, but quickly, it adds more variety to weapons systems and makes them more different vs being more alike, gives them more unique pluses and minuses so there's more reason to use one or the other depending on what you want to do, and also does so in a way that mimics real life (i.e. realism).
Basically, add 'flavor' to the game. |
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
34729
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 07:37:10 -
[131] - Quote
What do you think of remote transfers being subject to damage calculations like turrets?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
guigui lechat
the no fock given
5
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 12:32:02 -
[132] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:What do you think of remote transfers being subject to damage calculations like turrets? It's out of the scope of this thread. |
eveyn
21
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 17:17:53 -
[133] - Quote
I am grateful for this thread. It has reaffirmed my faith in just how super-cool forum gamers are becoming. In an overwhelming shift in balance, snark and carefully structured sarcasm now out-way debate and conversation. Finally! Yes. The remaining undiscovered secrets to society, civilization, our world, and even our great universe will only be realized through the persistence of assumption, followed by biased confirmation and island logic vacuums. The truth is, time is wasted on the considerate. Curiosity should only ever be stamped out as a traitor to blind confidence! There is no greater understanding than to simply know already. I am excited to witness this turning point in humanity. May it serve us all well in our collective future.
Noticing the slight irony of my post, I see that I am well on my way to becoming a forum metalite. Baby steps, of course! But still. This is truly an honor. May I serve this sacred order well, forever and ever....
|
Dracones
Tarsis Inc
50
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 17:59:48 -
[134] - Quote
- D-scan is a very old game mechanic. How it works is actually pretty dated when compared to newer mechanics like active probing.
- The playerbase has come to heavily depend on it though. Just removing it, or other outdated mechanics like local, would have a massive impact on the game meta and could break many things.
- It's hard to come up with a newer, more modern replacement for D-scan which preserves the current game balance and doesn't cause lag problems and so on.
So the devs just spend their time on other aspects of the game instead. CCP does make changes to the core of the game(SOV capturing, citadels, jump mechanics), and I'm sure D-scan is on a few TODOs to come up with a better replacement. But it's probably just not a high priority.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |