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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
458
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Posted - 2016.11.27 16:17:57 -
[1] - Quote
So, im one of the people that dont have that big a problem with ecm as most people have, sure a cloaked falcon is annoying but just as annoying as a curse or a cloaked logi
But the ECM module has one big flaw in my opinion, a flaw none of the other ewars share. It serves as a protection to itself, if a dampening ship damps you down you can pilot around that, get close to it and its ewar is useless. A TD is similar, you can fly in such a way that you negelect their ability to disrupt you, if you lower transversal you will still hit and if you get close up range TDs wont do anything.
All other ewar is counterable by targeting the ship using the ewar and flying "around" it, getting up close or lowering transversal or loading specific ammo - you can counter them.
The only piloting heavy way to counter ECM is to fly away from it, really far away. And once you are so far away you cant hold the ECM ship down or in most ships apply damage to it. Killing a celestis is easy, once its scrammed and you are brawling it it is dead, once you scrammed a Blackbird you are either getting lucky or most likely getting jammed so it can escape.
This i think needs to be changed, ECM is fine offensively, but defensively it is way to strong.
Hence i would like to propose a minimal range for ECM to be effective, 15 or 20 KM or so, if any ship is within that range it no longer is targetable by ECM and thus ECM doesnt defend the ship itself. So instead of ecm being 0-x kms range it should be 20-x km range.
So 1-20 km ecm has a no chance of working, then in the optimal it works just as it does right now and falloff stays the same.
This would mean that they maintain their power (although they need to be a bit more carefull about positioning) but that they arent a get out of jail for free card for themselves. If a ship manages to get up close to the ECM ship that either needs to fit weapons and tank or have enough help, ECM should not be TANK.
The navy griffing could get a role bonus still making it usefull for that. I think this would fix a lot of the problems ECM has right now. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3615
|
Posted - 2016.11.27 18:44:11 -
[2] - Quote
Genius as usual crendraven.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Iain Cariaba
3305
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Posted - 2016.11.27 18:49:01 -
[3] - Quote
The biggest difference between ECM and other ewar isn't range. It's the simple fact that ECM is either all or nothing. A damping pilot can fly in a way to maintain range. A TD pilot can fly in a way to keep his transversal up. ECM either works or it doesn't. Just as there's no way for a pilot to fly in way that neutralizes ECM, there's also no way for a pilot to fly in a way that improves its effect. I call this balanced.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8110
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Posted - 2016.11.28 01:41:59 -
[4] - Quote
No. ECM is already balanced by its chance to fail. If it fails, you have to wait a full cycle to try again. That full cycle is more than enough for the enemy to counter and put your ship down. All other EWAR modules work all the time, every time. ECM is also used by miners and some industrialists to save their ships from attackers. You wanna tell that Hulk pilot why he died to a Catalyst because his ECM wouldn't work at 500m?
Not that he'd be able to lock in time before the damage was done, but the point remains. ECM can also be used as a defensive measure for players to escape unwanted aggression. It doesn't always work for them, either, but in the cases that it does, many a ship has been saved. I know this because I've cursed at them many times under my breath as they've warped off due to my inability to target.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
459
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Posted - 2016.11.28 11:25:32 -
[5] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:The biggest difference between ECM and other ewar isn't range. It's the simple fact that ECM is either all or nothing. A damping pilot can fly in a way to maintain range. A TD pilot can fly in a way to keep his transversal up. ECM either works or it doesn't. Just as there's no way for a pilot to fly in way that neutralizes ECM, there's also no way for a pilot to fly in a way that improves its effect. I call this balanced.
So can a ecm ship fly to maintain range. All ewars are pretty skillless in how they work. This would make ecm weaker in the situations its super annoying (i.e cloaked falcon in 1v1s) while making it slightly harder to use in normal pvp, although as a ecm ship you ought to kite anyways.
It would basicely allow for good piloting to counter ecm, while right now you can either gtfo or get lucky. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3317
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Posted - 2016.11.28 11:42:13 -
[6] - Quote
O.o ECM takes a lot of skill to use effectively there is a reason Damps are preferred if your not just wanting to run.
as for your Idea Damps have you fly close to avoid their affects ECM has you fly further away to avoid their effects no minimum range is needed and it would not add much to the game play other than forcing ECM ships even more into the role of just being used to hope you can break tackle
BLOPS Hauler
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
459
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Posted - 2016.11.28 11:57:56 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:O.o ECM takes a lot of skill to use effectively there is a reason Damps are preferred if your not just wanting to run.
as for your Idea Damps have you fly close to avoid their affects ECM has you fly further away to avoid their effects no minimum range is needed and it would not add much to the game play other than forcing ECM ships even more into the role of just being used to hope you can break tackle
Dont you get the problem? If you fly very far away from a ecm ship to counter it you cannot kill it anymore, it protects itself making it pretty easy to use (which is why stuff like falcon alts are a thing). That is super annoying and very bad balance wise, making it so the ECM ship actually has to pilot to stay alive would solve all of that. |
Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
3000
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Posted - 2016.11.28 14:57:08 -
[8] - Quote
Minimum range on ECM when the last ECM boat we got has a trait that reduce it's range to next to nothing? Your 20km proposal would put this :
[Griffin Navy Issue, Test]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Legion Gravimetric ECM [Empty Med slot] Gravimetric ECM II [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
[Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot]
Small Particle Dispersion Projector II Small Particle Dispersion Projector II Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
in deep falloff even with the rare ECM module fitted for extra range.
T2 ECM range : 11.4 + 7.29
Legion ECM range : 11.9 + 7.59
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3616
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Posted - 2016.11.28 15:16:39 -
[9] - Quote
When i am damped i have to get closer to my TARGET to counter it. Not the ewar ship. When i get tracking disrupted i have to get closer to my TARGET to counter it. Not the e-war ship.
Ecm does not work like other ewar and you're incapable of thinking outside of a 1v1 environment. Do you also think target painting should have a minimum range? Neuts? Scram?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
459
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 16:12:25 -
[10] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Minimum range on ECM when the last ECM boat we got has a trait that reduce it's range to next to nothing? Your 20km proposal would put this :
[Griffin Navy Issue, Test]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Legion Gravimetric ECM [Empty Med slot] Gravimetric ECM II [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
[Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot]
Small Particle Dispersion Projector II Small Particle Dispersion Projector II Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
in deep falloff even with the rare ECM module fitted for extra range.
T2 ECM range : 11.4 + 7.29
Legion ECM range : 11.9 + 7.59
To quote myself from the opening post "The navy griffing could get a role bonus still making it usefull for that." |
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
459
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Posted - 2016.11.28 16:13:15 -
[11] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:When i am damped i have to get closer to my TARGET to counter it. Not the ewar ship. When i get tracking disrupted i have to get closer to my TARGET to counter it. Not the e-war ship.
Ecm does not work like other ewar and you're incapable of thinking outside of a 1v1 environment. Do you also think target painting should have a minimum range? Neuts? Scram?
If you are getting ecmed you have to kill the ewar ship, theres no way around it. |
Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
3000
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 16:17:27 -
[12] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Minimum range on ECM when the last ECM boat we got has a trait that reduce it's range to next to nothing? Your 20km proposal would put this :
[Griffin Navy Issue, Test]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Legion Gravimetric ECM [Empty Med slot] Gravimetric ECM II [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
[Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot]
Small Particle Dispersion Projector II Small Particle Dispersion Projector II Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
in deep falloff even with the rare ECM module fitted for extra range.
T2 ECM range : 11.4 + 7.29
Legion ECM range : 11.9 + 7.59
To quote myself from the opening post "The navy griffing could get a role bonus still making it usefull for that."
So only one ship in the entire game would be able to use ECM to break tackle on itself? You think that's a good design? |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3616
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 16:24:18 -
[13] - Quote
Yeah maybe in a 1v1.
Don't get me wrong. Its a popular primary, but the mere presence of an ecm ship does not make it first choice everytime in every situation. And how does your idea impact industrial ships that use ecm as a chance to break a scram when things have gone **** up?
This is your problem. You cannot think of the game outside of your own bubble and your premise that ecm should be countered in a similar way to other ewar is flawed.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
459
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 16:33:02 -
[14] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Minimum range on ECM when the last ECM boat we got has a trait that reduce it's range to next to nothing? Your 20km proposal would put this :
[Griffin Navy Issue, Test]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Legion Gravimetric ECM [Empty Med slot] Gravimetric ECM II [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
[Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot]
Small Particle Dispersion Projector II Small Particle Dispersion Projector II Small Particle Dispersion Projector I
in deep falloff even with the rare ECM module fitted for extra range.
T2 ECM range : 11.4 + 7.29
Legion ECM range : 11.9 + 7.59
To quote myself from the opening post "The navy griffing could get a role bonus still making it usefull for that." So only one ship in the entire game would be able to use ECM to break tackle on itself? You think that's a good design?
Yes, breaking tackle with ECM on yourself is horrible design and its the only ewar that really does that. Thats the whole idea of this, ecm should not be tank or anti-tackle for yourself. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
459
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 16:36:50 -
[15] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Yeah maybe in a 1v1.
Don't get me wrong. Its a popular primary, but the mere presence of an ecm ship does not make it first choice everytime in every situation. And how does your idea impact industrial ships that use ecm as a chance to break a scram when things have gone **** up?
This is your problem. You cannot think of the game outside of your own bubble and your premise that ecm should be countered in a similar way to other ewar is flawed.
No, in pretty much anything that isnt a massive scale battle. Ecm is the primary almost always. (also id appreciate it if you would answer with your main and not some alt for pvp discussions) |
Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
3000
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 16:49:27 -
[16] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes, breaking tackle with ECM on yourself is horrible design and its the only ewar that really does that. Thats the whole idea of this, ecm should not be tank or anti-tackle for yourself.
That is balanced by ECM being the only EWAR with a chance to fail. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
459
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 16:57:16 -
[17] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes, breaking tackle with ECM on yourself is horrible design and its the only ewar that really does that. Thats the whole idea of this, ecm should not be tank or anti-tackle for yourself.
That is balanced by ECM being the only EWAR with a chance to fail.
Not really, ECM having a chance to fail is balanced by the absurd OPness of it if it works, it takes 1 ship out of the game for 20 seconds. Thats way more powerfull then damps or tds, the downside is the chance. That is where the balance comes from.
Not because it serves as anti-tackle for itself. That is just bad design. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4990
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 18:32:47 -
[18] - Quote
So...if it should not be possible to use ECM to break tackle on yourself, what SHOULD a ship that is tackled by a superior foe be expected to do? Die without a chance? Fit a neut and hope you get very, very lucky? |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
460
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 19:03:34 -
[19] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So...if it should not be possible to use ECM to break tackle on yourself, what SHOULD a ship that is tackled by a superior foe be expected to do? Die without a chance? Fit a neut and hope you get very, very lucky?
Die without a chance obviously (or fit dps/tank or warpcore stabs). Its eve, if you get tackled by a vindicator in a t1 cruiser they dont complain about it either. Dont get tackled by a superior ship or die. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3618
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 20:28:53 -
[20] - Quote
Almost always =/= always. Thats what i was trying to tell you.
ECM isn't a great mechanic because of its RNG and all-or-nothing nature. But this idea has little to do with addressing that. It just half arsed nerf to ECM in certain fights (what a surprise the kind of fights you partake in), when ECM is not in need of a nerf. This IS just another whine thread about ECM.
Why isnt Daichi my main exactly? And who even says i even have a main? I started this game with more than one account, but the one i play most on right now is my new alpha.
Rub your e-peen with that. vOv
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
896
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Posted - 2016.11.28 20:39:04 -
[21] - Quote
So lets play devil's advocate. Poof....there is a 24km deadzone to not break tackle. Be nice, max range of unbursted max skill point.
this would come at cost. jam pilots spend some time getting the SP to max things like range. So....you have your 24 km deadzone. That means logically any range determinations would begin at 24.1 kms. As currently skills start at 0 km (the ship being the starting point) . You just gave falcon 24 km's more of range it didn't need. As, well, ccp reduced range long ago (the og because of falcon days ECM was longer range).
this is why CCP does not balance heavily factoring on 1v1. Things tend to not scale well when it reaches fleet/roam level. YOu have your not breaking tackle falcon. And fleets now have a falcons uber long range, again. Problem is in a fleet and if falcons do this right and fc coordinates well....nothing will be within 24 km's of that falcon (or other jam boat) anyway. free 24 km range bonus...not a bad thing all in all.
to fix your 1v1 problem, fleet based stuff gets complicated as falcons are waaaay the hell out more than they can be now. Which was the reason for the range nerf in the first place.
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
460
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 20:50:38 -
[22] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:So lets play devil's advocate. Poof....there is a 24km deadzone to not break tackle. Be nice, max range of unbursted max skill point.
this would come at cost. jam pilots spend some time getting the SP to max things like range. So....you have your 24 km deadzone. That means logically any range determinations would begin at 24.1 kms. As currently skills start at 0 km (the ship being the starting point) . You just gave falcon 24 km's more of range it didn't need. As, well, ccp reduced range long ago (the og because of falcon days ECM was longer range).
this is why CCP does not balance heavily factoring on 1v1. Things tend to not scale well when it reaches fleet/roam level. YOu have your not breaking tackle falcon. And fleets now have a falcons uber long range, again. Problem is in a fleet and if falcons do this right and fc coordinates well....nothing will be within 24 km's of that falcon (or other jam boat) anyway. free 24 km range bonus...not a bad thing all in all.
to fix your 1v1 problem, fleet based stuff gets complicated as falcons are waaaay the hell out more than they can be now. Which was the reason for the range nerf in the first place.
I didnt say that ecm should get the 20km range added that they are losing in their jamming range, its a flat nerf to ECM. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
460
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 20:51:29 -
[23] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Almost always =/= always. Thats what i was trying to tell you.
ECM isn't a great mechanic because of its RNG and all-or-nothing nature. But this idea has little to do with addressing that. It just half arsed nerf to ECM in certain fights (what a surprise the kind of fights you partake in), when ECM is not in need of a nerf. This IS just another whine thread about ECM.
Why isnt Daichi my main exactly? And who even says i even have a main? I started this game with more than one account, but the one i play most on right now is my new alpha.
Rub your e-peen with that. vOv
Because going by the killboard of Daichi you have 0 say in any discussion involving pvp. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3618
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 21:06:06 -
[24] - Quote
Is like saying you have no say in balancing mechanics for anything other than micro gangs. So why do you think you have any say when it comes to ecm?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
3000
|
Posted - 2016.11.29 16:08:50 -
[25] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Almost always =/= always. Thats what i was trying to tell you.
ECM isn't a great mechanic because of its RNG and all-or-nothing nature. But this idea has little to do with addressing that. It just half arsed nerf to ECM in certain fights (what a surprise the kind of fights you partake in), when ECM is not in need of a nerf. This IS just another whine thread about ECM.
Why isnt Daichi my main exactly? And who even says i even have a main? I started this game with more than one account, but the one i play most on right now is my new alpha.
Rub your e-peen with that. vOv Because going by the killboard of Daichi you have 0 say in any discussion involving pvp.
None of your top used ship are ECM ones so by that standard, you would have little to say on the matter right? |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
460
|
Posted - 2016.11.29 17:05:10 -
[26] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Almost always =/= always. Thats what i was trying to tell you.
ECM isn't a great mechanic because of its RNG and all-or-nothing nature. But this idea has little to do with addressing that. It just half arsed nerf to ECM in certain fights (what a surprise the kind of fights you partake in), when ECM is not in need of a nerf. This IS just another whine thread about ECM.
Why isnt Daichi my main exactly? And who even says i even have a main? I started this game with more than one account, but the one i play most on right now is my new alpha.
Rub your e-peen with that. vOv Because going by the killboard of Daichi you have 0 say in any discussion involving pvp. None of your top used ship are ECM ones so by that standard, you would have little to say on the matter right?
No one good in this game has ecm anywhere in his/her top used ships. Its not about flying the ship a lot, its about knowing how pvp works in this game. And if you have under 100 kills and losses combined one obviously doesnt know what one is talking about. Or is posting on an alt. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
809
|
Posted - 2016.11.29 17:18:19 -
[27] - Quote
The idea has some merit, but trying to keep an unbiased view as a solo pilot, i can see both sides of the argument. As a solo pilot, its infuriating to be fighting a good fight on gate in my battleship, then gate fires and a BB/falcon pops in 8km from me, and before i can lock, im permajammed.
At the same time, completely negating their EWAR in 24km range is a bit excessive. Either reduce the range to under 10km (thus scram/brawling is possible or just have strength reduced below 20km. Like the opposite of a heavy grappler (closer to 0km, the less effective it is, but still does something).
Or make sensor strength scale with range. So being at 10km on a battleship with 36 SS would be more like having 80 SS. Then being farther away would bring it to its normal base value (but not below it, so fleets are relatively unaffected).
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Make the Muninn great again!
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
460
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:26:14 -
[28] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:The idea has some merit, but trying to keep an unbiased view as a solo pilot, i can see both sides of the argument. As a solo pilot, its infuriating to be fighting a good fight on gate in my battleship, then gate fires and a BB/falcon pops in 8km from me, and before i can lock, im permajammed.
At the same time, completely negating their EWAR in 24km range is a bit excessive. Either reduce the range to under 10km (thus scram/brawling is possible or just have strength reduced below 20km. Like the opposite of a heavy grappler (closer to 0km, the less effective it is, but still does something).
Or make sensor strength scale with range. So being at 10km on a battleship with 36 SS would be more like having 80 SS. Then being farther away would bring it to its normal base value (but not below it, so fleets are relatively unaffected).
24km is just an example, im just annoyed mainly by the fact that ecm is the only ewar that in itself also is a gtfo card. If a celestis or a arbi is tackled its dead, a bb ijust warps away. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
6035
|
Posted - 2016.11.29 18:27:48 -
[29] - Quote
Posting in stealth "buff hisec ganking" thread.
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4992
|
Posted - 2016.11.29 18:50:44 -
[30] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So...if it should not be possible to use ECM to break tackle on yourself, what SHOULD a ship that is tackled by a superior foe be expected to do? Die without a chance? Fit a neut and hope you get very, very lucky? Die without a chance obviously (or fit dps/tank or warpcore stabs). Its eve, if you get tackled by a vindicator in a t1 cruiser they dont complain about it either. Dont get tackled by a superior ship or die.
Do you not think that removing counter-play is a bad idea? Why is fitting DPS or stabs a valid option in your view, but fitting ewar not?
if the vindicator doesn't bring a friend, or a sebo, why should be be guaranteed a kill against someone who took precautions? |
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