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Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
1388
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Posted - 2016.11.29 09:17:52 -
[1] - Quote
Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.
The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.
To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.
At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.
Now with 100% less Troll.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46031
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Posted - 2016.11.29 09:28:05 -
[2] - Quote
Can attackers force defenders out of station?
The counter balance to the arbitrary nature of declaring war already exists. Defenders can escape from the war at any point, at no cost at all.
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Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
1390
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Posted - 2016.11.29 09:45:07 -
[3] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Can attackers force defenders out of station?
The counter balance to the arbitrary nature of declaring war already exists. Defenders can escape from the war at any point, at no cost at all.
Incentives for defending corporations to fight back,like my proposal would reduce the Corp swapping behavior. You and I agree Corp swapping is an issue and carrots work better than sicks in video games.
Now with 100% less Troll.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46031
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Posted - 2016.11.29 09:49:22 -
[4] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:You and I agree Corp swapping is an issue and carrots work better than sicks in video games. Yes carrots work better than sticks. I totally agree with that.
I just can't see the logic here that being able to force attackers out of stations will be much of a carrot. Isolated wardeccing character will just log off; and prepared wardec groups will be prepared for the case that they can be forcibly undocked.
Either way, I don't see that the defenders get much more than either no content or a bloody nose.
Those defenders that can defend themselves aren't really affected by wardecs now and those that can't wont be incentivised to fight without the skills or experience to do so.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8132
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Posted - 2016.11.29 11:09:42 -
[5] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.
So.... laughed at and then otherwise ignored until the next thread like this comes along?
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
1390
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Posted - 2016.11.29 11:25:42 -
[6] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:You and I agree Corp swapping is an issue and carrots work better than sicks in video games. Yes carrots work better than sticks. I totally agree with that. I just can't see the logic here that being able to force attackers out of stations will be much of a carrot. Isolated wardeccing character will just log off; and prepared wardec groups will be prepared for the case that they can be forcibly undocked. Either way, I don't see that the defenders get much more than either no content or a bloody nose. Those defenders that can defend themselves aren't really affected by wardecs now and those that can't wont be incentivised to fight without the skills or experience to do so.
The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.
Other possibilities would include: Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers. Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location. Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia. Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview
Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.
Now with 100% less Troll.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46040
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Posted - 2016.11.29 11:32:47 -
[7] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote: Other possibilities would include: Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers. Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location. Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia. Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable beacons in the solar system.
Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.
I can see what you are trying to do and this is just my opinion, which is no better or worse than anyone else's, so take these replies with a grain of salt.
The issue I see with these is that none of them are balanced. They provide carrots to one side only by hitting the other side with a stick.
In my view, the mechanics should get out of the way, not become more important. They should be there just enough to allow conflict, but then how that proceeds should be up to the players.
These suggestions just seem counter to that, but my 0.02 has no more value then anyone else's.
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Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
1390
|
Posted - 2016.11.29 11:39:41 -
[8] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:stuff
Currently the logical solution is to corp-swap, this bloats corp history and doesn't provide gameplay for anyone.
Now with 100% less Troll.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2980
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Posted - 2016.11.29 11:52:59 -
[9] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.
The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.
To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.
At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers. Should they also be able to force them to login? Or what about if they are just in an empty pod, should they be able to force them into a specific ship of the defender's choice?
I always find this hullabaloo about wardeccers docking or staying docked hilarious. Players, everywhere in Eve won't show up to a fight they think there is no chance of winning. It is common practice for fleets to dock up, or log off, or stay in a POS, or even self-destruct if they think they other side completely outclasses them. That can be because they are risk-averse cowards, or could be because they have made the correct assessment that they have no chance to win, but regardless of the reasons, such tactics are completely normal and accepted behaviour everywhere in this game - except in highsec for some reason where it evokes tear-filled threads like this one.
If you want a fight, bait them like you have to do everywhere else. You don't just roll up with some overwhelming fleet and expect them to undock into an honourable destruction. If you have camped them into a station, well then take solace in the fact that your dominance has been established and thus your honour restored.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
19358
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Posted - 2016.11.29 12:07:34 -
[10] - Quote
Bahaha, cool so if you want to take anything that belongs to me you can't dock Can't warp with a weapons timer
I get , a local NPC militia to defend me The watchlist back real-time locates And your a warpable.
I'm now functionally Immortal. Cheers Tom
We're Back in Business ,
have your very own Meeny Faced Bastards on call today
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Lasisha Mishi
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
109
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Posted - 2016.11.29 14:45:04 -
[11] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:
The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.
Other possibilities would include: Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers. Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location. Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia. Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview
Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.
.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM
*spams the vote for button anyway* |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8135
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Posted - 2016.11.29 14:54:55 -
[12] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:
The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.
Other possibilities would include: Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers. Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location. Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia. Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview
Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.
.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM *spams the vote for button anyway*
Because anyone that understands the game also understands that all the ideas listed here are terrible. They assume the defending corp is at an inherent disadvantage. They are not.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8135
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Posted - 2016.11.29 14:56:30 -
[13] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:
The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.
Other possibilities would include: Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers. Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location. Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia. Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview
Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.
.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM *spams the vote for button anyway*
Because anyone that understands the game also understands that all the ideas listed here are terrible. They assume the defending corp is at an inherent disadvantage. They are not.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Revis Owen
The Conference Elite CODE.
430
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Posted - 2016.11.29 14:56:40 -
[14] - Quote
A corp wardecs you, then confines itself to stations. Sounds like your enemy is wasting their money. What's the problem with that?
Agent of the New Order
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Luciolla
The Militiamen
17
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Posted - 2016.11.29 15:15:17 -
[15] - Quote
I have always been 100% pvp and at times been a very aggressive war dec corp in high sec. but at the moment I run a casual indy corp (its so weird). We just got war decced. Being on the receiving end is an interesting change of perspective. Sure you can swap corps and avoid the war. The aggressors can just deck that corp and so on. a war dec on an industrial corp shuts down all mining and most mission running. shutting off the source of most peoples income in an unwanted conflict. 90% of the time these indy corps are targeted randomly just because they were recruiting or active in a system. this will prevent people from loggin on for a week or more, or some will just quit playing the game altogether, and who benefits from that? On the flip side I like the option to war dec and it shouldnt be too limiting and restrictive for the aggressors, but they need a reason to declare war.
Im assuming alot of eve players have played Europa Universalis, I think it could be interesting to have some sort of Casus Belli system or "just Cause" for a war to take place. don't ask me how exactly this system would work but it would force the attackers to "fabricate a claim" or something like that. Give them a reason or justification to declare a war, and not just frivolously declare wars at random.
Just some thoughts from someone that knows both sides. |
Lasisha Mishi
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
109
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Posted - 2016.11.29 15:25:14 -
[16] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Lasisha Mishi wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:
The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.
Other possibilities would include: Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers. Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location. Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia. Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview
Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.
.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM *spams the vote for button anyway* Because anyone that understands the game also understands that all the ideas listed here are terrible. They assume the defending corp is at an inherent disadvantage. They are not. the defendign corp is at an inherent disadvantage
considerign the war dec spammers tend to have groups of people and the defendign corp is likely to have under 10 people in the corp....total. |
mkint
1268
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Posted - 2016.11.29 15:27:24 -
[17] - Quote
Damnit, I need to check who the thread OP is now before I click on them. Didn't this guy get permabanned from the forums? Did the alpha thing unban people?
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
19362
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Posted - 2016.11.29 15:29:05 -
[18] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote: the defendign corp is at an inherent disadvantage
How so?
We're Back in Business ,
have your very own Meeny Faced Bastards on call today
=]|[=
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8140
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Posted - 2016.11.29 15:33:16 -
[19] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Lasisha Mishi wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:
The incentive should be unique to the defender and furthermore unique to the war declaration system, It should not be a "I W.I.N. button" but it should provide entertaining gameplay.
Other possibilities would include: Attacking Corporation may not operate warp drives while under weapon's timers. Defending Corporation given a list of attackers, their online status, and their real-time location. Defending Corporation able to declare a "Home" system which will be defended by local militia. Attacking Corporation members show up as warpable in the overview
Any of these would provide a unique "Carrot" to stick around and fight back.
.......WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTABLE FOR IN THE CSM *spams the vote for button anyway* Because anyone that understands the game also understands that all the ideas listed here are terrible. They assume the defending corp is at an inherent disadvantage. They are not. the defendign corp is at an inherent disadvantage considerign the war dec spammers tend to have groups of people and the defendign corp is likely to have under 10 people in the corp....total. the war dec spammers want to gank, and are set up for it (i say gank. not pvp as theres no one fighting back) the defending corp usually doesn't, and so isnt set up for PvP, hence being in highsec. thats why so many people leave corp or just don't undock when they get wardec'd. they don't want it.
You're gonna have to provide numbers for these assertions. CCP's numbers conflict with your claims, unfortunately, and if you think PVP corps don't get decced, you're mistaken. You'd be handing those corps, and corps that assist defenders, too much of an advantage over an attacker. Additionally, defenders are not at an inherent disadvantage just because they 'don't want to'. As for "isn't set up for PVP, hence being in highsec", that is their own mistake. PVP happens in highsec just like everywhere else in EVE. If you choose to play a PVP game and not learn the PVP, even if it's just for the sake of knowledge and understanding of how to avoid or evade an aggressor, then you disadvantage yourself.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Lady Ayeipsia
Perkone Caldari State
1240
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Posted - 2016.11.29 15:42:50 -
[20] - Quote
Luciolla wrote:I have always been 100% pvp and at times been a very aggressive war dec corp in high sec. but at the moment I run a casual indy corp (its so weird). We just got war decced. Being on the receiving end is an interesting change of perspective. Sure you can swap corps and avoid the war. The aggressors can just deck that corp and so on. a war dec on an industrial corp shuts down all mining and most mission running. shutting off the source of most peoples income in an unwanted conflict. 90% of the time these indy corps are targeted randomly just because they were recruiting or active in a system. this will prevent people from loggin on for a week or more, or some will just quit playing the game altogether, and who benefits from that? On the flip side I like the option to war dec and it shouldnt be too limiting and restrictive for the aggressors, but they need a reason to declare war.
Im assuming alot of eve players have played Europa Universalis, I think it could be interesting to have some sort of Casus Belli system or "just Cause" for a war to take place. don't ask me how exactly this system would work but it would force the attackers to "fabricate a claim" or something like that. Give them a reason or justification to declare a war, and not just frivolously declare wars at random.
Just some thoughts from someone that knows both sides.
But you aren't so limited as to be unable to mission or mine. That is a restriction you place on yourself.
For example, you could run missions as a corp in frigates. You could easily do burner missions and not even lose much income. Of war targets show up, you may lose a frig or two, no issue. Heck watch local and you'll lose more frigate to rats than to the war targets.
For mining, take ventures and head to low decor even gas mine in wormholes. At most, you just need to be more vigilant.
I found the war decs to always be more limiting on my hauling accounts. They were the only ones at major risk. Those I kept docked up and just waited, while doing other stuff on my normal characters. |
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
821
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Posted - 2016.11.29 16:02:18 -
[21] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Currently the logical solution is to corp-swap, this bloats corp history and doesn't provide gameplay for anyone.
Just leave HS for a week. Problem solved. |
Kara Hawke
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:16:02 -
[22] - Quote
Sorry but the ideas here are literally game breaking. High sec wardeccs need to be addressed however.
We've been in a war for five weeks by someone who we believe has a ton of different different accounts. He'll show up randomly and kill someone then sit in station afk for 12 hours. We've lost quite a few ships to his surprise attacks and everyone is afraid of doing anything. The dec lapsed this last weekend and people started doing things again - only to have him start a new one Sunday night. Last night there were 2 people on and I was one to them. People in my corp are quickly losing interest in the game.
I love Eve and I don't want It to turn into WoW with everything nerfed and dumbed down... but without some sort of protections in place, the game just becomes a waste of time for most pve'ers. Also bare in the mind the people quitting are the ones making your ships and modules. |
Darth Terona
Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops
303
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:39:33 -
[23] - Quote
At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.
what?
also no. Ejecting people from station while they may be afk would result in lots of support tickets.
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Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
1393
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:39:54 -
[24] - Quote
Kara Hawke wrote:Sorry but the ideas here are literally game breaking. High sec wardeccs need to be addressed however.
We've been in a war for five weeks by someone who we believe has a ton of different different accounts. He'll show up randomly and kill someone then sit in station afk for 12 hours. We've lost quite a few ships to his surprise attacks and everyone is afraid of doing anything. The dec lapsed this last weekend and people started doing things again - only to have him start a new one Sunday night. Last night there were 2 people on and I was one to them. People in my corp are quickly losing interest in the game.
I love Eve and I don't want It to turn into WoW with everything nerfed and dumbed down... but without some sort of protections in place, the game just becomes a waste of time for most pve'ers. Also bare in the mind the people quitting are the ones making your ships and modules.
With the alpha clones you can get to station and create a Corp within 10 minutes, this does bloat Corp history but having dozens of personal tax free corps to bounce between is currently the best ISK efficient solution.
Wardecs are CCP's way of reminding us,there are other developers with products on Steam.
Now with 100% less Troll.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46049
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:40:18 -
[25] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:stuff
Currently the logical solution is to corp-swap, this bloats corp history and doesn't provide gameplay for anyone. So what?
No one is forced to drop corp. it's a choice a defender has. There are also other choices that are just as logical and don't involve dropping corp.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3986
|
Posted - 2016.11.29 17:42:41 -
[26] - Quote
How about: Make wars revolve around the new structures. You can only be part of a war, attacker or defender, if you have deployed a citadel or an engineering complex.
Now, if one side decides to not show up, at least the other gets to kill a structure.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46051
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:46:33 -
[27] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:How about: Make wars revolve around the new structures. You can only be part of a war, attacker or defender, if you have deployed a citadel or an engineering complex.
Now, if one side decides to not show up, at least the other gets to kill a structure. This comes right back to aiming to hit the big wardec groups and in the process, almost eliminating smaller groups from being able to use Wardecs.
It would just encourage large wardec groups to become larger. This just compounds the current situation.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Revis Owen
The Conference Elite CODE.
431
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:52:25 -
[28] - Quote
Luciolla wrote:a war dec on an industrial corp shuts down all mining and most mission running
Newbros, if your corp is shut down by a wardec, you are in a corp with bad leadership. Get out and look for a better corp.
Luciolla wrote:I think it could be interesting to have some sort of Casus Belli system or "just Cause" for a war to take place.
You're in a PvP-centric MMO. There's your just cause for war.
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If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2761
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:52:53 -
[29] - Quote
Oh, Tom Gerard is back?
I knew this alpha thing was a bad idea.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2470
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Posted - 2016.11.29 17:53:31 -
[30] - Quote
Why don'y you identify the POCO owning corps of the war dec entities and war dec them, if enough people do that and shoot their POCO's they will not be able to cover them all.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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