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ACESsigepps
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2016.12.06 23:41:05 -
[1] - Quote
I'm curious as to how well this was implemented. How many POCs have changed hands in high sec? Is this just a passive income for those established players in EVE? I can understand corp/alliance owned offices in Null but? It also has eliminated the need of "customs code expertise" skill book which I'm sure there's hardly any NPC owned offices anymore....
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2824
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Posted - 2016.12.06 23:48:19 -
[2] - Quote
Wander on over to zkill, look up customs office, and filter by highsec.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
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ACESsigepps
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2016.12.07 00:22:20 -
[3] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Wander on over to zkill, look up customs office, and filter by highsec.
Ty, Ill check it out.
Edit: where's the high sec filter for location? |
Paranoid Loyd
9908
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Posted - 2016.12.07 00:31:44 -
[4] - Quote
ACESsigepps wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Wander on over to zkill, look up customs office, and filter by highsec. Ty, Ill check it out. Edit: where's the high sec filter for location? /highsec
https://zkillboard.com/ship/2233/highsec/
"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix
Fix the Prospect!
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46217
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Posted - 2016.12.07 00:40:15 -
[5] - Quote
Actually, I'm just updating to include the last 4 weeks, but here is this year to 7 Nov 2016:
https://puu.sh/sGFH4/c567c2dbec.png
Stats:
POCO : 2571 destroyed POS: 1332 destroyed Citadel: 131 destroyed
Average of 92 structures per week killed in highsec with 64% of them being POCO kills.
There are no Interbus owned customs offices left in highsec that I am aware of and since POCOs were introduced there is constant conflict over them.
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Alpha Forum Posting
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2016.12.07 03:38:40 -
[6] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Here is this year by week so far (4 Jan to 5 Dec 2016): https://puu.sh/sGNlR/7a95be66e2.png Stats: POCO : 2801 destroyed POS: 1417 destroyed Citadel: 151 destroyed Total structures destroyed in highsec so far in 2016: 4369 Average of 99 structures per week killed with 64% of them being POCO kills. There are no Interbus owned customs offices left in highsec that I am aware of and since POCOs were introduced there is constant conflict over them. There are still some Interbus owned offices in low and null. That's just BS.
Everyone knows highsec griefers just want easy kills and Eve on casual mode. No way they are killing that many POCOs. They are just ganking stuff to ruin other people's fun. |
Shayla Etherodyne
Delta Laroth Industries Voxis Accord
110
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Posted - 2016.12.07 06:48:28 -
[7] - Quote
EVE-Uni did a big POCOs hunt this year. I have no precise numbers, but they destroyed a lot of the POCOs of a alliance that was bothering them. I am sure that more knowledgeable people can fill the details (and the alliance name). |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1132
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Posted - 2016.12.07 07:12:14 -
[8] - Quote
There are a few big entities that like controlling high sec that need to die in a fire sometimes. Other times its because you can. Either way we like watching things blow up.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46219
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Posted - 2016.12.07 07:26:34 -
[9] - Quote
Alpha Forum Posting wrote:That's just BS.
Everyone knows highsec griefers just want easy kills and Eve on casual mode. No way they are killing that many POCOs. They are just ganking stuff to ruin other people's fun. Meh, it's just data.
The good thing about it is anyone can go and download it and analyse it themselves.
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Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
338
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Posted - 2016.12.07 09:09:03 -
[10] - Quote
There are/have been big fights over POCOs, but there are also lots of small corps fighting over POCOs too. Many POCOs in more 'quiet' and less populated areas of high sec were planted when POCO became a thing and the patch went live, which resulted in many people putting them up and owning them for long time uncontested.
I had some POCOs that were never attacked since the POCO patch day 1, which I've sold earlier this year. At the same time, I had some POCOs that got attacked & removed while my corp hasn't been around to defend them, by very small group of players, who later I saw in local mining rocks and running HS missions heh.
It's not always the 'big entitites' that stomp over the 'small corps' in high sec. Many small corps in HS go afk for some time, especially if they have very small number of members or if it's one man army of alts. They get decced by another tiny corp who took notice, and then there's war dec and POCO/POS can be easily destroyed.
Outside of major hubs/regions there are many these tiny little things going on. People just take opportunity where they can and size is not always the most important factor (oh really...). I remember seeing this post from a solo HS war deccing dude who flies around and look for offline POS with stuff still anchored, which sometimes mean that they still have stuff in them but the owners just went AFK on holiday or whatever and the pos shield came down. Then you can take down the whole thing with a catalyst (tower destruction not needed if you don't fancy shooting for long time). What they look for is loot drops from research/industry modules and corp hangars that went offline. So yes, even a one man mission (with no alts) can destroy offline POSes (which there are quite a few in high sec) and get nice loot drops.
Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
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Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
1028
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Posted - 2016.12.07 09:36:48 -
[11] - Quote
Asking for a freind: How long would it take to turn down a small tower with an Oracle?
Toobo wrote:There are/have been big fights over POCOs, but there are also lots of small corps fighting over POCOs too. Many POCOs in more 'quiet' and less populated areas of high sec were planted when POCO became a thing and the patch went live, which resulted in many people putting them up and owning them for long time uncontested.
I had some POCOs that were never attacked since the POCO patch day 1, which I've sold earlier this year. At the same time, I had some POCOs that got attacked & removed while my corp hasn't been around to defend them, by very small group of players, who later I saw in local mining rocks and running HS missions heh.
It's not always the 'big entitites' that stomp over the 'small corps' in high sec. Many small corps in HS go afk for some time, especially if they have very small number of members or if it's one man army of alts. They get decced by another tiny corp who took notice, and then there's war dec and POCO/POS can be easily destroyed.
Outside of major hubs/regions there are many these tiny little things going on. People just take opportunity where they can and size is not always the most important factor (oh really...). I remember seeing this post from a solo HS war deccing dude who flies around and look for offline POS with stuff still anchored, which sometimes mean that they still have stuff in them but the owners just went AFK on holiday or whatever and the pos shield came down. Then you can take down the whole thing with a catalyst (tower destruction not needed if you don't fancy shooting for long time). What they look for is loot drops from research/industry modules and corp hangars that went offline. So yes, even a one man mission (with no alts) can destroy offline POSes (which there are quite a few in high sec) and get nice loot drops.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46220
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Posted - 2016.12.07 09:52:23 -
[12] - Quote
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:Asking for a freind: How long would it take to turn down a small tower with an Oracle? A small tower has 12,500,000 shield HP and repairs at 150 HP/s.
To reinforce a POS, you need to get the shields to 25%.
Assuming no other modules that you need to incap first (eg. webs, guns, etc.) and no dampeners, with a generous 850DPS from a single Oracle (and hitting the 0 resist EM or Explosive holes):
time in sec = 12,500,000 HP * 0.75 / (850 DPS - 150 HP/s repair) = 223 minutes for a single Oracle
That seems awfully long, so I might have screwed something up, but even if adjusted, attacking a POCO with a single Oracle is boring and not very effective.
5-6 Oracles should reduce the time to 30 minutes odd to reinforce.
Finally killing is shorter as armor and structure HP are 1,000,000 each.
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Salvos Rhoska
1640
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Posted - 2016.12.07 11:41:57 -
[13] - Quote
HS POCO warfare is largely a proxy war, where NS entities secure additional income/suppression/projection against HS entities on their own ground (whilst HS entities are largely incapable/unwilling of engaging NS on theirs).
This is very smart and equitable, and the involved NS entities have every advantage.
This war is largely won over the last year, insofar as significant HS domestic resistance. The multitudes of minor entities have largely been quashed. Some remaining larger HS entities still maintain control, and its not worth engaging them.
It is now transitioning into NS shadow entities engaging each others HS POCOs, but that is not likely to last long as resistance from them is fiercer and outweigh the benefits.
NS has a vested interest in controlling HS POCOs to: 1) Raise taxes on HS, thus passively earning in HS from the small PI operators with no means to take the POCO. 2) Reduce income/influence of HS entities, hurting their capacity to compete with NS imports, or NS alt HS sourced materials. 3) Indirectly incentivising HS denizens to join NS entities, by reducing their margins in HS.
LS is dynamic, aggressive and tribal. Certainly there are NS alts operating there as well, but POCO aggression there by NS alts is largely just to prompt fights for fun, not for actual control of the POCO.
J-space doesnt care, cos their statics are not tied to individual systems.
Citadels are a different matter. Multiple citadels compete with each other in a HS system, but there is only one POCO per planet.
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1482
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Posted - 2016.12.07 11:47:13 -
[14] - Quote
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:Asking for a freind: How long would it take to turn down a small tower with an Oracle?
With a single Oracle? Start shooting. Go have dinner. Maybe watch a movie after. Take a nice bath. Hell, have a nap. Tower reinforced.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1748
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Posted - 2016.12.07 12:13:52 -
[15] - Quote
PI has been a healthy market / PVP incentive as long as I can remember. We've been involved in both seizing customs offices and buying / selling them, despite our small size. Taking them from larger entities then yourself requires a little entrepeneurship. Keep attacking them but flee at the first sign of defense. The opposition will have to waste their time defending and repairing it. After a couple of times they might be more open to the suggestion of selling them. The discontent from having to rep structures is something you can seed a little, before you propose a "solution". All it takes is a little diplomacy and refusal to play the victim card because you don't get nice things for free. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat Snuffed Out
3753
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Posted - 2016.12.07 12:19:56 -
[16] - Quote
Alpha Forum Posting wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Here is this year by week so far (4 Jan to 5 Dec 2016): https://puu.sh/sGNlR/7a95be66e2.png Stats: POCO : 2801 destroyed POS: 1417 destroyed Citadel: 151 destroyed Total structures destroyed in highsec so far in 2016: 4369 Average of 99 structures per week killed with 64% of them being POCO kills. There are no Interbus owned customs offices left in highsec that I am aware of and since POCOs were introduced there is constant conflict over them. There are still some Interbus owned offices in low and null. That's just BS. Everyone knows highsec griefers just want easy kills and Eve on casual mode. No way they are killing that many POCOs. They are just ganking stuff to ruin other people's fun.
god we have an alpha forum posting alt, what a time to be alive
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Salvos Rhoska
1642
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Posted - 2016.12.07 17:45:22 -
[17] - Quote
HS POCOs are a failed system.
Its irrational that a single entity controls expedient access to an entire planet, with the only recourse being destruction of that single POCO.
There is very little economic competition in this system, only violent aggression.
Not that violent aggression isnt fine, but it is the only option on an otherwise economix/production based system.
Why not have multiple POCOs competing on value?
If there are multiple POCOS, sure someone can attack mine cos Im cheaper and cutting their margins, but I will also have the PI operators helping me defend it, in thwir own interest.
The POCO monopoly system is not competetive. Its just structure bashing, whereas multiple POCOs would involve far more competition.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46225
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Posted - 2016.12.07 18:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:HS POCOs are a failed system.
Its irrational that a single entity controls expedient access to an entire planet, with the only recourse being destruction of that single POCO.
There is very little economic competition in this system, only violent aggression.
Not that violent aggression isnt fine, but it is the only option on an otherwise economix/production based system.
Why not have multiple POCOs competing on value?
If there are multiple POCOS, sure someone can attack mine cos Im cheaper and cutting their margins, but I will also have the PI operators helping me defend it, in thwir own interest.
The POCO monopoly system is not competetive. Its just structure bashing, whereas multiple POCOs would involve far more competition. That was part of why the POCOs were introduced.
When Interbus owned them all, there was no difference in price anywhere, so planets close to trade hubs ended up with large concentrations of colonies and systems further away had next to none.
POCOs introduced price competition where none previously existed and their is economic competition now. If taxes are too high on one planet, move to a different one.
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1187
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Posted - 2016.12.07 18:20:33 -
[19] - Quote
But there is competition, isn't there? You aren't being forced to use this particular planet with the expensive POCO. Just find another planet. Of course, it's quite possible that the plasma planet with the cheap POCO on it is nearly depleted ... which might be a consequence of the low tax. Or it's possible that the planet is far away from the next tradehub, which might be why it's so cheap in the first place. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2829
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Posted - 2016.12.07 18:22:33 -
[20] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:HS POCO warfare is largely a proxy war, where NS entities secure additional income/suppression/projection against HS entities on their own ground (whilst HS entities are largely incapable/unwilling of engaging NS on theirs).
This is very smart and equitable, and the involved NS entities have every advantage.
This war is largely won over the last year, insofar as significant HS domestic resistance. The multitudes of minor entities have largely been quashed. Some remaining larger HS entities still maintain control, and its not worth engaging them.
It is now transitioning into NS shadow entities engaging each others HS POCOs, but that is not likely to last long as resistance from them is fiercer and outweigh the benefits, as well as peripherally antagonizing which is not in the interest of NS blocs stability in this Cold War.
NS has a vested interest in controlling HS POCOs to: 1) Raise taxes on HS, thus passively earning in HS from the small PI operators with no means to take the POCO. 2) Reduce income/influence of HS entities, hurting their capacity to compete with NS imports, or NS alt HS sourced materials. 3) Indirectly incentivising HS denizens to join NS entities, by reducing their margins in HS. 4) POCO controller can set standings rates, thus incentivizing small PI operators to work with the controller, or can basically shut down a planet with exorbitant rates.
LS is dynamic, aggressive and tribal. Certainly there are NS alts operating there as well, but POCO aggression there by NS alts is largely just to prompt fights for fun, not for actual control of the POCO.
J-space doesnt care, cos their statics are not tied to individual systems.
Citadels are a different matter.
Multiple citadels compete with each other in a HS system, but there is only one POCO per planet, meaning there is no competition except by a) violence b) lower rates on other POCOs, which is dependent on associated planet types/resources there or in adjoining systems.
Tbh I dont like the POCO system due to the systemic monopoly a single owner has over the planet.
I'm assuming I can read more about this on your twitter feed. @RealAlexJones, is it?
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Salvos Rhoska
1642
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Posted - 2016.12.07 20:09:58 -
[21] - Quote
My issue is with a planet having a single POCO monopoly.
Yes, this means change of ownership requires destroying only one, and replacing it with your own. Simple. But it also means there is no non-violent way to contest a POCO.
In NS sov this is not possible. You cant aggress a blue POCO. If you attempt to aggress a red POCO, you might spark a war. In HS, few operators have the force necessary to aggress the POCO, replace it, and defend it. In LS, the matter is complicated, but again, hinged on monopoly of POCO per planet. In WH, POCOs work as is. Defend your hole, or lose it.
I dont see any reason why planets should not have multiple POCOs which compete on rates. They would all be aggressable as now. If you dont like someone offering a better rate, take their POCO out, if you can.
But there is no rational reason why 1 POCO holder should have a monoploy on that planet. Its contrary to the competitive and free market opportunity nature of EVE.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46228
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Posted - 2016.12.07 20:11:47 -
[22] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:My issue is with a planet having a single POCO monopoly.
Yes, this means change of ownership requires destroying only one, and replacing it with your own. Simple. But it also means there is no non-violent way to contest a POCO.
In NS sov this is not possible. You cant aggress a blue POCO. If you attempt to aggress a red POCO, you might spark a war. In HS, few operators have the force necessary to aggress the POCO, replace it, and defend it. In LS, the matter is complicated, but again, hinged on monopoly of POCO per planet. In WH, POCOs work as is. Defend your hole, or lose it.
I dont see any reason why planets should not have multiple POCOs which compete on rates. They would all be aggressable as now. If you dont like someone offering a better rate, take their POCO out, if you can.
But there is no rational reason why 1 POCO holder should have a monoploy on that planet. Its contrary to the competitive and free market opportunity nature of EVE.
POCO ownership can change and it regularly does without violence.
If you have an issue take it to the F&I forum with a suggestion, rather than just whinging based on an incomplete understanding of the mechanics.
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Salvos Rhoska
1642
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Posted - 2016.12.07 20:20:28 -
[23] - Quote
Diversion and ad hominem.
Clearly this has struck a nerve.
Explain to me why it is better that there is only one POCO per planet, as opposed to many?
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46229
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Posted - 2016.12.07 20:24:16 -
[24] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Explain to me why it is better that there is only one POCO per planet, as opposed to many? I don't care whether there is one or many.
I care about actually understanding the current mechanics before complaining about them and instead of complaining at all, actually being constructive with a suggestion in the right place.
This thread has nothing to do with what you are complaining about. It's just another personal, off topic crusade like we've seen in other recent threads.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2835
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Posted - 2016.12.07 20:26:29 -
[25] - Quote
It's literally called a "custom's office". It is, in effect, a governing body on the border between planetside and space. You don't get to just set up a second one of those because you feel like it. Go conquer the existing government (or buy out their interest) if you want it.
That aside, most of your assertions about highsec POCOs are largely fabrications. You could probably tear down most highsec POCOs as an alpha. While afk, even.
PS: There most certainly ARE interbus customs offices left in high sec. Saw one just recently within 4? jumps of a major hub. :D
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Salvos Rhoska
1642
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Posted - 2016.12.07 20:34:43 -
[26] - Quote
Im beginning to see the nascent underlying interests of antagonists in this thread.
Nobody has yet addressed my argument of why there should not be multiple POCOs, as opposed to one.
Certainly the planetary based interests are divergent, but DUST showed that all planets are as contested as is the space above and beyond them.
Why does one entity, for such small price, gain monopoly over an entire planet and its import/export?
Surely it is more rational, and native to EVE, that any number of POCO operators, whom pay for its installation, should be able to compete on rates?
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2547
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Posted - 2016.12.07 20:46:48 -
[27] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Im beginning to see the nascent underlying interests of antagonists in this thread.
Nobody has yet addressed my argument of why there should not be multiple POCOs, as opposed to one.
Certainly the planetary based interests are divergent, and DUST showed that all planets are as contested as is the space above and beyond them.
Why does one entity, for such small price, gain MONOPOLY over an entire planet and its import/export?
Surely it is more rational, and native to EVE, that any number of POCO operators, whom pay for its installation, should be able to compete on rates?
It is something that I have wondered, why not more than one POCO.
However it is possible to use the command centre, the key thing is to put that and where you store your goods right next to each other, then make the link experimental and you can use the launch ability with only a certain loss of time to export stuff. I do that on planets with tax rates above what I am happy to pay and it works well. The tax is the NPC value only. The thing is that many people have realised this and droppe dtheir rates to a level not to be silly.
You will find that many POCO's are owned by players lined toe the hisec merec war deccers and there are agreements between them in some areas.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46229
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Posted - 2016.12.07 20:49:37 -
[28] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Im beginning to see the nascent underlying interests of antagonists in this thread.
Nobody has yet addressed my argument of why there should not be multiple POCOs, as opposed to one. This is not the thread to address that. It's a completely different topic and doesn't belong here.
Having a different opinion doesn't imply any sort of underlying interest, else the same could be said of you and your opinion. It's just not the topic of this thread.
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Salvos Rhoska
1643
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Posted - 2016.12.07 21:00:09 -
[29] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote: This is not the thread to address that. It's a completely different topic and doesn't belong here.
Having a different opinion doesn't imply any sort of underlying interest, else the same could be said of you and your opinion. It's just not the topic of this thread.
1) You are not a moderator, or in any position to dictate to me what I can or cannot say, or whether my comments are ontopic. 2) You have yoursekf engaged my points on several occassions, which would make you off-topic as well. 3) You have not provided arguments against my position, as expressed relative to OPs concerns by extension and natural evoution of this thread into interrelating issues. 4) Vested interests are everywhere in EVE, including on this board., including you and I. 5)You are not addrwssing my arguments as extension of OPs concerns. I stead you haveposted ad hominem and attempts to redirect discussion elsewhere.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46232
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Posted - 2016.12.07 21:17:39 -
[30] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote: This is not the thread to address that. It's a completely different topic and doesn't belong here.
Having a different opinion doesn't imply any sort of underlying interest, else the same could be said of you and your opinion. It's just not the topic of this thread.
1) You are not a moderator, or in any position to dictate to me what I can or cannot say, or whether my comments are ontopic. 2) You have yoursekf engaged my points on several occassions, which would make you off-topic as well. 3) You have not provided arguments against my position, as expressed relative to OPs concerns by extension and natural evoution of this thread into interrelating issues. 4) Vested interests are everywhere in EVE, including on this board., including you and I. 5)You are not addrwssing my arguments as extension of OPs concerns. I stead you haveposted ad hominem and attempts to redirect discussion elsewhere. Salvos, anyone who openly expresses that they would gain pleasure seeing another EvE player get kicked in the face in real life is not someone I have much time for. That speaks to a quality of character that is very much at odds with my own. So I'll make this my last post.
I don't need to be a moderator to know whether a post is off topic or not. It just means I have no power to do anything much about those posts directly.
The rest of the post is just jibberish, drawing conclusions on things not written.
So much for another ok thread.
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