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Helel Lightbringer
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.04.08 04:34:00 -
[1]
Right now ore thieves and their ilk have a free ride. I think stealing from another player should give a (at least a miniscule) sec standing loss. ***** "It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." -- Winston Churchill |
HottieWitAbody
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Posted - 2007.04.08 04:38:00 -
[2]
Jetcans were never intended for their use in mining. If you continue to complain about it about the only thing you might accomplish is getting them nerfed.
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rackhard
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Posted - 2007.04.08 06:04:00 -
[3]
Originally by: HottieWitAbody Jetcans were never intended for their use in mining. If you continue to complain about it about the only thing you might accomplish is getting them nerfed.
Ya but he has a point hehe maybe there sec status lowers and turns them pink rather than red hehehe
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Hennry Fromer
Gallente radiated space gerbils
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Posted - 2007.04.08 06:18:00 -
[4]
Try naming your jet-cans Bait see if that helps any.
If you toss it off your ship though it is fair game, and you can shoot at the person that takes it - although it may be unwise to exercise that option.
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Hennry Fromer
Gallente radiated space gerbils
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Posted - 2007.04.08 06:18:00 -
[5]
Try naming your jet-cans Bait see if that helps any.
If you toss it off your ship though it is fair game, and you can shoot at the person that takes it - although it may be unwise to exercise that option.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2007.04.08 07:07:00 -
[6]
I believe this might be a good idea. It would need to be a small hit though.
As for jet cans not being meant for mining, without them the game could not support its current population. The secure containers are just to small to facilitate the transfer of Ore or Ice at this point.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post Thoughts expressed are mine and |
Redglare's Demise
Shih Yang Tong
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Posted - 2007.04.08 07:27:00 -
[7]
Jet cans arent secure.
Done!
Fixed! |
Elliesium Al'kar
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Posted - 2007.04.08 08:46:00 -
[8]
To quote a popular response from another game
"There is a pvp solution."
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Bavinok
radiated space gerbils
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Posted - 2007.04.08 09:17:00 -
[9]
I got an idea its called don't jet can. You expect your stuff to be safe in an unsecure container floating in space. Bah and do we really have to have another i'm tired of people taking my ore threads.
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Faol'gus
T Miners
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Posted - 2007.04.08 10:21:00 -
[10]
Hey if you throw your junk out and someone comes around and picks it up and makes use out of it they shouldn't be penalised. Concord like the fact that ore thieves take care of the garbage situation.
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.08 10:24:00 -
[11]
Don't jetcan mine! With WTZ you can dock, unload, and be back on site in less than a minute.
Drone Love - My skills
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Marcus Xavier
Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning
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Posted - 2007.04.08 10:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun Don't jetcan mine! With WTZ you can dock, unload, and be back on site in less than a minute.
This is true if you are warp-aligned upon leaving the station, but you are on the right track. If the OP were to adopt a widely used low-sec mining technique called ninja mining, this thread would not need to exist. For the new folks, the OP only needs to follow the following simple steps:
a) create a safe spot that is within 1 AU of the belt and drop a named can with 1 ammo round. b) warp to the belt and create a mining BM. c) warp-align to your safe spot and begin mining. d) when you finish a cycle, warp to your safe spot, drop off your ore, and warp back to your mining BM. e) repeat steps c and d until you are ready to pick up the ore with the hauler.
Granted, there are several downsides worth mentioning. First, it will require at least a minute to complete this task. Second, you probably will not be able to use mining drones. Finally, you won't be able to mine efficiently when you are semi-AFK.
There is one huge upside... you'll create a frustrated ore thief especially if you drop a named jetcan to entice the thief to waste his time.
---------------- Mutatis Mutandis |
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.08 11:08:00 -
[13]
Jet can mining may not have originally been a concept designed by CCP, but it was later accepted as a valid use by them. Saying that it wasn't the intended use now does not invalidate others suggestions of change.
Miners complained about anyone being able to steal from their can without any repercussions. CCP added Agression timers to allow the miners a chance at payback. Miners are now suggesting a minor security hit for stealing, mainly due to the gank squads who target jetcans to get kills on miners. They have no interest in the contents, they steal purely to tempt the miner into retaliation so all their buddies can jump in and trash any mining op they find.
I see it as a valid request. Stealing is frowned upon both in game and out. It makes sense you should get a security hit for doing it.
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Dr Saitek
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Posted - 2007.04.08 12:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
I see it as a valid request. Stealing is frowned upon both in game and out. It makes sense you should get a security hit for doing it.
This would have significant repercussions throughout the game unless you were ganged with someone. For instance, I salvage abandoned wrecks (I ask permission if they are in the system or assume it's abandoned if they are not) and often grab the civie boosters and passive targeters that they leave behind. Given the amount of abandoned loot that I can collect in the larger systems, it wouldn't take long to build a large sec hit for a price checker with no combat skills. The ore thief, on the other hand, would rat for 20 minutes to neutralize the sec hit.
There are measures that a miner can take to minimize the aggravation of gankthieves (ore thieves who are not interested in the ore itself, but in the killmail). Make friends with other miners in the system and come to an agreement to help one another. At the very least, your miner friend can send an alt out to flip the ore into his can and you can grab it with a hauler. This uses the same mechanics as the gankthief and doesn't require a change that would have little impact on modifying the behavior of the gankthief.
Yes, gankthieves can be a problem in high traffic systems, but there are ways to minimize their impact on a solo mining op.
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Jex Jast
Go for the booty
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Posted - 2007.04.08 12:44:00 -
[15]
I propose that we do away with jet cans entirely. You want to throw something out in space it gets destroyed. Then we won't have to deal with this problem.
Either that or we could shrink jet cans so they only have maybe 2.5k m3 of space. Most of the time people don't need 27k m3 to contain the hundred rounds of ammo or whatever they want to drop to pick up something better. Having them so big is an invitation for people to jet mine.
-----
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Cipher7
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.04.08 13:28:00 -
[16]
Crime is a valid Eve profession.
If you think another playstyle is so easy and attractive then go do it.
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Zephyrys
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.08 13:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jex Jast I propose that we do away with jet cans entirely. You want to throw something out in space it gets destroyed. Then we won't have to deal with this problem.
Either that or we could shrink jet cans so they only have maybe 2.5k m3 of space. Most of the time people don't need 27k m3 to contain the hundred rounds of ammo or whatever they want to drop to pick up something better. Having them so big is an invitation for people to jet mine.
So long as we get decently effective sized cans we can mine to.. we wont care if we cant jetcan mine..
But telling us to warp to a safe spot to drop ore every 3 minutes is BS. Lets see the mission runners warp to dock every 5 kills cause of cargo capacity.. -------------- Active Miner improvement Threads = 5 Active Miner improvement Threads with Dev Response = 0
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Natalia Fachiri
Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.04.08 16:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jex Jast I propose that we do away with jet cans entirely. You want to throw something out in space it gets destroyed. Then we won't have to deal with this problem.
Either that or we could shrink jet cans so they only have maybe 2.5k m3 of space. Most of the time people don't need 27k m3 to contain the hundred rounds of ammo or whatever they want to drop to pick up something better. Having them so big is an invitation for people to jet mine.
I am all for it, IF some other way to mine is introduced. The hold of a barge is filled in under a cycle, once you have high enogh skills, and even with minimal skills it wont take more then 4 minutes.
There are some easy sollutinos out there: 1. intorductinos of bigger secure cans 2. dedicated ore stroage for barges, size depending on ship, but should be good for 20-30 solid minutes of mining
Introduce either and jetcans can be changed in evrywich way and no one will cry a tear over it.
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Roue
Alcoholics R' Us
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Posted - 2007.04.08 16:52:00 -
[19]
NO!
It's obvious that you miners are just trying to abuse the mining system. It was never intended by CCP for you to be able to mine this much. Jettison cans were an exploit of game mechanics devised by the most ruthless carebears who weren't content to cooperate in empire but wanted to descend like vultures upon every scrap of innocent ore in safe space.
Without ore thieves to keep you guys in check you would scour the univers of all the veldspar. Think of the Chribba.
Yes I am a privateer. This is my opinion not that of privateer corp, alliance, its member corps, affiliates, minions, pet animals, ex girlfriends, former roommates, 3rd grade gym teachers, late relatives, ontime relatives, |
Sessho Seki
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Posted - 2007.04.09 04:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: HottieWitAbody Jetcans were never intended for their use in mining. If you continue to complain about it about the only thing you might accomplish is getting them nerfed.
Precisely, so by saying it's acceptable for someone to exploit what's already being exploited, that some how makes it all better?
Sort of poetic how your own words end up being a double edged sword. Since the very beginning of EVE Jet-cans have been nothing more than a necessary nuisance to the game. It used to be common to see developers saying outright that they never intended jet cans to be used the way they are, however if they weren't being used, the inflation of the ore/mineral markets would crush EVE within a week.
CCP has come to terms with jettison cans being used in mining, however they have also opened the floodgates of exploiting the exploit in order to create a pseudo-profession (read as: Griefing Endorsed by CCP) that was never to be to begin with. The majority of miners have wanted a more "legitimate" solution to the problem since day one, but CCP has been all too eager to ignore everyone and everything posed, with good reason of course, because it would require exertion of effort toward industry which CCP is highly allergic to. (unless embroiled in a scandal that needs immediate white-washing)
There are actually perfectly logical, practical, and FAIR solutions to the problem in discussion right now, many with considerable support from the game base... cough*The Miners' Cause*cough
But of course, no one at CCP will ever acknowledge that people have genuinely invested thoughtful research and reasonable calculation into solutions that would both meet the needs of miners AND drastically reduce the need for the original exploit, which would in turn reduce the instance of the appending exploit. For some reason, CCP is adamantly opposed to any exploiting in combat (well, kinda sorta anyway, let's not go into ctrl+q), but for some reason, an exploit lingering from even BEFORE day-1 that has a VERY simple and perfectly reasonable solution is simply left to languish so long as there are griefers around to exploit on top of the exploit.
Now, as my previous posts of similar flavor this week have been irritatingly censored, I fully expect this one to be as well, because heaven forbid anyone actually speak God's honest truth, that's simply unacceptable. Not that it wouldn't just be better for everyone for the currently unpleasant fact to be made moot by correcting the situation and thus no one would talk about it anymore... but that would make too much sense...
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Severra
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.04.09 04:46:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Severra on 09/04/2007 04:44:26 Edited by: Severra on 09/04/2007 04:43:11 So because you are too lazy or too socially inept to hire or find a friend to haul for you (ever heard of using a secure can as a transfer for a hauler buddy?), you ask that ore thieves be penalized for your own stupidity and carelessness? Dream on.
You know, each time you use a jetcan, that it is unsecure. You accept this because everyone does it, and you think ore theft can't possibly happen to you. Yet when it does, you scream bloody murder in local and on these forums in an attempt to hide your own culpability.
Join a corp, mine in protected mining ops, use secure cans, hire/find a hauler buddy, fit your coveter to a drone/warp disruptor thief-ganker, but for your own dignity's sake, do not complain when you took zero actions to prevent ore theft. Your desire to be the care-free, uber solo-miner does not fit with reality.
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Pride NL
Dominators
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Posted - 2007.04.09 05:25:00 -
[22]
If they ever nerve jet cans in a way that it helps miners, then EVE has a new full time orethief
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.04.09 06:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Severra Edited by: Severra on 09/04/2007 04:44:26 Edited by: Severra on 09/04/2007 04:43:11 So because you are too lazy or too socially inept to hire or find a friend to haul for you (ever heard of using a secure can as a transfer for a hauler buddy?), you ask that ore thieves be penalized for your own stupidity and carelessness? Dream on.
You know, each time you use a jetcan, that it is unsecure. You accept this because everyone does it, and you think ore theft can't possibly happen to you. Yet when it does, you scream bloody murder in local and on these forums in an attempt to hide your own culpability.
Join a corp, mine in protected mining ops, use secure cans, hire/find a hauler buddy, fit your coveter to a drone/warp disruptor thief-ganker, but for your own dignity's sake, do not complain when you took zero actions to prevent ore theft. Your desire to be the care-free, uber solo-miner does not fit with reality.
Hey, some people like the 1-2 person mining op. fitting guns in such a group will cut profits a lot so they go to 1.0 or 0.9 and tank the small rats. That leaves them no secure cans. You can't tell them to join a corp or a large mining op. There are different styles of play and eve is awesome because you can do anything not because you gotta grind (large mining ops feels like grindinging if you ever tried it)
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Orion Eridanus
Dark Nova Crisis
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Posted - 2007.04.09 06:20:00 -
[24]
Leave my roids alone and i'll leave your precious cans alone WANTED: Someone to go to Jita with me. This is not a joke. Eve mail me PO BOX *snip* Ashela, Genesis. You'll get paid after we get back. Must bring own ship. Safety not guaranteed. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.04.09 06:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Roue NO!
It's obvious that you miners are just trying to abuse the mining system. It was never intended by CCP for you to be able to mine this much. Jettison cans were an exploit of game mechanics devised by the most ruthless carebears who weren't content to cooperate in empire but wanted to descend like vultures upon every scrap of innocent ore in safe space.
Without ore thieves to keep you guys in check you would scour the univers of all the veldspar. Think of the Chribba.
Yes I am a privateer.
Whell then go play only in a frigate, as so "much" mining is needed to build anithing bigger.
And as you are there, spend some isk to get a clue.
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glennkari
Gallente Lions Club
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Posted - 2007.04.09 06:42:00 -
[26]
First let me say this: No there should not be a sec hit for stealing ore. If ppl prepare for the ore thief then thats plenty of risk for them.
What does make me wonder is why mining is the only proffesion were ppl keep saying: Bring a buddy (or buy a second account) to be able to mine effecintly. I dont see mission runners having to bring anyone else with them to be able to farm missions. And they have even less risk of someone grabbing there loot/wercks while they switch to a loot boat (if they use one). Yet miners have to use barges with 2k (filled in 1 cycle) or 4K (filled in 2 cycles) or the mighty hulk with 8K (witch my miner char now fills in 2 cycles with T2 crystals). After this they have a few choices (if we assume there solo): 1. Jet can mine - Risky if in a busy system. If you live there you will soon know if you can use this method or not. This is the most effective metod. 2. Use 'giant' secure cans - As we saw above you would need lots of those to remain effective, and some belts are litterd with cans (but thats a whole other issue). About 6 'giant' secure cans would fill a T1 hauler with max skills. 3. Mine / dock / mine - This would be the slowest metod, and if you were to use this you would be foolish not to fill the low slots on your barge with cargo expanders instead of mining upgrades.
I still think CCP should look at barges (there barges, they should be HUGE) and there cargo capacity. Make it ore only so ppl cant use them to transport minerals or fittings so they would still need to train for industrials. There should be some way to take a small amount of mining crystals tho. If they wont / cant give them more room, then introduce a real giant secure can witch is about 3 or 4 times bigger then the current. Make it expendeble so once deployed it cant be scooped if they want to make a downside to it.
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Verite Rendition
Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2007.04.09 06:44:00 -
[27]
One of these days, someone is going to have to explain to me why the EVE player base hates miners so much... ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic |
glennkari
Gallente Lions Club
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Posted - 2007.04.09 07:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Verite Rendition One of these days, someone is going to have to explain to me why the EVE player base hates miners so much...
Because its ISK printing
ps. just joking
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Sandra Tseng
Silentia Mortalis
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Posted - 2007.04.09 10:03:00 -
[29]
*hint: MULTIplayer game*
Get a friend with a hauler. Market is fluid - if you produce less veldspar because it takes more time to mine, well I guess then prices will go up and not every nublet will fly a battleship anymore.
everyone wins
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Elliusium Al'kaur
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Posted - 2007.04.09 10:14:00 -
[30]
First of all - empire miners can dieinafire for all I care. Veld hugging hacks. Ore theft is funny. End of story.
"Get a hauler" - what does that have to do with anything? Have you guys ever tried mining without a can? What would you do? Go and dock every time the hold gets full? Enjoy the skyrocketing ship prices :P
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