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Gizzie Haslack
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2016.12.16 11:16:04 -
[1] - Quote
They're almost as fast as Interceptors, have the tank of dessies, and the guns of a scanner frigate.
What's the point when you can just rig up a dessie and pay 1/25th the price?
Have I missed something here?
They just pack normal guns after all. Even with the level bonuses a Dessie can challenge by simply adding 3-4 more guns.
Over to you oh brains of EVE. Maybe I have missed a memo? |
Kethen T'val
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
22
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Posted - 2016.12.16 11:21:50 -
[2] - Quote
Gizzie Haslack wrote:They're almost as fast as Interceptors, have the tank of dessies, and the guns of a scanner frigate.
What's the point when you can just rig up a dessie and pay 1/25th the price?
Have I missed something here?
They just pack normal guns after all. Even with the level bonuses a Dessie can challenge by simply adding 3-4 more guns.
Over to you oh brains of EVE. Maybe I have missed a memo?
I agree but still... What!? |
Marcus Blackthorn
Royal Assassins Guild Imperial Crimson Legion
31
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Posted - 2016.12.16 15:05:35 -
[3] - Quote
Gizzie Haslack wrote:They're almost as fast as Interceptors, have the tank of dessies, and the guns of a scanner frigate.
What's the point when you can just rig up a dessie and pay 1/25th the price?
Have I missed something here?
They just pack normal guns after all. Even with the level bonuses a Dessie can challenge by simply adding 3-4 more guns.
Over to you oh brains of EVE. Maybe I have missed a memo?
You have some really slow interceptors .... just saying |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
2768
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Posted - 2016.12.16 15:41:18 -
[4] - Quote
The entire Assault Frigate lineup has been in desperate need of some love for some time now. They're generally outclassed by other ships in almost all roles, although some of them do have niche fits.
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
I predicted FAUXs
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Sequester Risalo
Semiki Minerals and Missiles Company Ltd.
258
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Posted - 2016.12.16 16:19:21 -
[5] - Quote
Gizzie Haslack wrote:What's the point when you can just rig up a dessie and pay 1/25th the price?
Have I missed something here?
I'm by no means an expert but I assume that it's worth something having the firepower of a destroyer with the scan resolution and speed of a frigate.
Also you can enter 1/10 ded sites restricted to frigates. |
Salvos Rhoska
1697
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Posted - 2016.12.16 20:33:43 -
[6] - Quote
Sequester Risalo wrote:Also you can enter 1/10 ded sites restricted to frigates. Ahh gawd, man. You breakin' mah balls here....
PvE v PvP
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Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
408
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Posted - 2016.12.17 00:05:02 -
[7] - Quote
OP is correct. Assault Frigs are broken and have been for a very long time. During the Tiericide rebalance of ships they were briefly okay again, but further changes to the game have rendered them obsolete. New destroyers as well as the other frigates being buffed essentially wrecked the AF. It's a ship class without a role right now. The meta has moved toward speed and mobility, so a slower, brawling frigate is less and less useful. Where one might shine, it is outclassed by destroyers. Either by cheaper T1 buzzsaws and especially by T3D's which do everything an AF does but better. A cruiser with Rapid Lights is better at anti-frigate combat than an AF.
It's a constant evolution in Eve. Ship classes, especially the niche T2 variants, wax and wane as new mechanics are introduced and new ships make appearances.
HACs have the opposite problem- they are too good compared to T1 cruisers and battle cruisers rendering both nearly obsolete. Battle ship sized tank (including sig tank) with nearly battle ship firepower means there is little need for a BC any more when you can fly a HAC. Can't throw a rock without hitting a Gila these days, and once upon a time it was all about the armor HAC in PvP.
Perhaps having a class that is a straight upgrade to tank/firepower of a hull is a poor choice for a fleet role. T2 variants do better when they deviate completely from ship-of-the-line, such as logi or EWAR. But as soon as you have an upgrade to the basic DPS ship class- it immediately infringes on (for good or bad) the ships classes surrounding it.
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Skelee VI
Wraithguard. The Wraithguard.
61
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Posted - 2016.12.22 01:20:35 -
[8] - Quote
you are all wrong. I still fly my afs a plenty. They are awesome. my vengeance rocks. if you have max skills they are great. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11205
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Posted - 2016.12.22 06:13:50 -
[9] - Quote
Pros for Assault Frigates:
- faster and more mobile than Destroyers - tank better than Destroyers (yes, they tank better... smaller sig radius counts as part of their tank) - requires less equipment (3 to 4 launchers / turrets versus 7 to 8) - underestimated (if you want to get into fights, this is key)
Cons for Assault Frigates
- not as fast as their Tech 1 variants... much less Interceptors - more slots to fit stuff in but with Tech 1 level CPU and Powergrid (which restricts fitting options) - some are specialized, others are not... no real major trait that defines them relative to other small ship classes beyond being slower, tougher Tech 1 frigates that hit a bit harder. - (the big one) Tech 3 Destroyers can pretty much everything Assault Frigates can do, but better. Like... a lot better (hell, some Tech 3 Dessies step on the toes of Cruisers).
How did you Veterans start?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18275
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Posted - 2016.12.22 07:32:27 -
[10] - Quote
Gizzie Haslack wrote:They're almost as fast as Interceptors, have the tank of dessies, and the guns of a scanner frigate.
What's the point when you can just rig up a dessie and pay 1/25th the price?
Have I missed something here?
They just pack normal guns after all. Even with the level bonuses a Dessie can challenge by simply adding 3-4 more guns.
Over to you oh brains of EVE. Maybe I have missed a memo?
You haven't missed anything here. The "A bit slower but tankier and a bit more DPSy than a frigate" niche is already occupied by T1, T3 and Command Destroyers, and hedged in by T1 cruisers.
AFs should either be removed or given some unique role bonus like virtually every other T2 ship has.
"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."
Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18275
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Posted - 2016.12.22 07:45:55 -
[11] - Quote
Actually, one genuinely unique role that they might fill is "accessibility". Reduce the AF skill prerequirement to racial frigate IV, add Assault Frigates I-III or IV to the list of alpha skills, and reduce the production cost of AFs by about 2/3.
Make em cheap and easy to get into. Use them as a hook to get new players interested in fly T2 ships. AFs will still be "not great", but at least they'll be of interest and value to a large section of the players again.
"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."
Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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Angie Oxifor
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.12.22 08:54:47 -
[12] - Quote
They are exellent Pve ships for Lvl 4 burner missions. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2390
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Posted - 2016.12.22 12:12:25 -
[13] - Quote
When they got a balance pass a few years back some ninny (F-zz-e) gave them a useless mwd bonus. If CCP would just listen to the 500 or so posts asking for an AB bonus all would be right in the Eve universe.
Their role is 'heavy tackle frigate', but they get scrammed and blown up too easily, so they don't get used.
If you put a gang of them together they are a fast moving (gate to gate) wrecking ball that can rip through systems for decent fun. The fun is only decent because nullbear whiners lobbied for system upgrades and their farming systems can have way to many anoms to d-scan guys down in and engage before they warp to safety. On the other hand, they don't get a lot of respect, so they are more likely to be engaged than say a t3 dessy gang. If you learn how to fly them - they are pretty fun.
T3 dessy kind of blotted out their significance. As CCP slowly nerfs T3 dessy into a good spot the AF will gain ground in usefulness and actual in game use.
Waaaaaay back in the day I flew the crap out of the enyo (back when it only had 2 mid slots) and had a lot of fun with it. It was an odd purple color and was know as the 'Barbie car' of eve. There used to be a video of an enyo doing pvp to some Barbie song, it's probably still around somewhere.
If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious! |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2390
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Posted - 2016.12.22 12:14:43 -
[14] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Actually, one genuinely unique role that they might fill is "accessibility". Reduce the AF skill prerequirement to racial frigate IV, add Assault Frigates I-III or IV to the list of alpha skills, and reduce the production cost of AFs by about 2/3.
Make em cheap and easy to get into. Use them as a hook to get new players interested in fly T2 ships. AFs will still be "not great", but at least they'll be of interest and value to a large section of the players again.
A cheap easy to kill frigate isn't more fun than an expensive easy to kill frigate. They are already cheap in both skill points and isk. Your idea would solve little. They need to be able to have a decent win ratio to be fun. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1531
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Posted - 2016.12.22 13:47:33 -
[15] - Quote
Thing is, they seem to have an identity crisis what they want to be.
When the ship-tiericide project began, it was all good and they got another slot and some adjustments and were designed to punch two classes up. I remember a fight that I had with a Vengeance in lowsec and me in a Throax. That Vengeance almost wrecked me but I could warp off, only to be killed by gate guns -.-
Anyhow, incredible piloting by the Vengeance pilot and that ship is still to this day the better missile boat - yes I am staring at you Hawk.
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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Gizzie Haslack
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2016.12.22 15:09:15 -
[16] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Malcanis wrote:Actually, one genuinely unique role that they might fill is "accessibility". Reduce the AF skill prerequirement to racial frigate IV, add Assault Frigates I-III or IV to the list of alpha skills, and reduce the production cost of AFs by about 2/3.
Make em cheap and easy to get into. Use them as a hook to get new players interested in fly T2 ships. AFs will still be "not great", but at least they'll be of interest and value to a large section of the players again. A cheap easy to kill frigate isn't more fun than an expensive easy to kill frigate. They are already cheap in both skill points and isk. Your idea would solve little. They need to be able to have a decent win ratio to be fun.
I agree that cost-wise they just aren't worth it. They have the flexibility for people to really play with them & learn some stuff, but at 30m a pop that's not very useful.
You need deep pockets to be able to throw away 40m 'kitted out', and many experienced players do forget that one.
Yeah, I can see 'hook' as being a use for them. They are just a 'heavy frigate' after all. They are genuinely nothing special for Fleet Action ( unlike Bombers & 'Ceptors ). |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2393
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Posted - 2016.12.22 17:25:34 -
[17] - Quote
Gizzie Haslack wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Malcanis wrote:Actually, one genuinely unique role that they might fill is "accessibility". Reduce the AF skill prerequirement to racial frigate IV, add Assault Frigates I-III or IV to the list of alpha skills, and reduce the production cost of AFs by about 2/3.
Make em cheap and easy to get into. Use them as a hook to get new players interested in fly T2 ships. AFs will still be "not great", but at least they'll be of interest and value to a large section of the players again. A cheap easy to kill frigate isn't more fun than an expensive easy to kill frigate. They are already cheap in both skill points and isk. Your idea would solve little. They need to be able to have a decent win ratio to be fun. I agree that cost-wise they just aren't worth it. They have the flexibility for people to really play with them & learn some stuff, but at 30m a pop that's not very useful. You need deep pockets to be able to throw away 40m 'kitted out', and many experienced players do forget that one. Yeah, I can see 'hook' as being a use for them. They are just a 'heavy frigate' after all. They are genuinely nothing special for Fleet Action ( unlike Bombers & 'Ceptors ).
40 mil is chump change for pvp, so I'm not getting it for the pvp aspect. For pve it's not like you're going to lose the ship anyway so I don't get it there either. The price is fine and the skill requirements are fine. It's not about being an older rich player and forgetting. If you can't afford a 40 mil AF loss, then pvp probably isn't for you. I've said variations of this in different situations, but seriously - How many folks will pvp in a 30 mil AF that won't pvp in a 40 mil AF? I don't think it's that big of a number.
The pvp draw isn't vast riches. It's the excitement and so many other non isk things. I'll never agree that making a pvp ship cheaper will pull more guys into the fold. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18494
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Posted - 2016.12.22 17:57:53 -
[18] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!
They did, it was horribly broken. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18281
|
Posted - 2016.12.22 18:28:41 -
[19] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!
They did, it was horribly broken.
Also the Sansha ships already have an AB bonus, disqualifying it on the "unique" requirement.
"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."
Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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Orakkus
m3 Corp Evictus.
297
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Posted - 2016.12.22 19:50:34 -
[20] - Quote
Assault Frigs have always had a bad time fitting in. Their original role was a small gang fast moving strike ship. But they were first released they had an okay tank and were pretty expensive. Cruisers could essentially do the same things for cheaper, albiet for considerably less and with a better tank. It always seems that with each developer pass, these ships is either they are too expensive for what they do, or not tanky enough, or is outclassed by an already existing or newly released ship type.
I had hoped that when they applied changes to warp speed that these ships might fit into a niche a little better, but that still isn't happening.
What they really need is a long term think on their roles.. and maybe even a reduction of ships from two down to one per race to make it easier to balance out. Personally, I think the AFs should have been the ones with the warp bubble nullification, instead of the ceptors. That would have made AFs more unique, but since they are slower and less manuverable than Ceptors it would be easier to catch them in a well run gate camp.
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
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Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
75
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Posted - 2016.12.22 22:19:42 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!
They did, it was horribly broken.
How about AFs had an omnitank 77% for shields and 82% for armor and was unable to fit any resist module both for armor and shield? The only tank they could use is a damage control. They sure need something unique to get back in the field. |
Wanda Fayne
372
|
Posted - 2016.12.23 04:18:12 -
[22] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!
They did, it was horribly broken. How about AFs had an omnitank 77% for shields and 82% for armor and was unable to fit any resist module both for armor and shield? The only tank they could use is a damage control. They sure need something unique to get back in the field.
Then everyone would hull-tank for an additional 60% flat resist to structure.
Keep thinking, there's gotta be something special for these ships...
your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic
-Lan Wang-
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Locator Agents cease to function on Offline Players:
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Gizzie Haslack
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2016.12.23 09:34:12 -
[23] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Gizzie Haslack wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Malcanis wrote:Actually, one genuinely unique role that they might fill is "accessibility". Reduce the AF skill prerequirement to racial frigate IV, add Assault Frigates I-III or IV to the list of alpha skills, and reduce the production cost of AFs by about 2/3.
Make em cheap and easy to get into. Use them as a hook to get new players interested in fly T2 ships. AFs will still be "not great", but at least they'll be of interest and value to a large section of the players again. A cheap easy to kill frigate isn't more fun than an expensive easy to kill frigate. They are already cheap in both skill points and isk. Your idea would solve little. They need to be able to have a decent win ratio to be fun. I agree that cost-wise they just aren't worth it. They have the flexibility for people to really play with them & learn some stuff, but at 30m a pop that's not very useful. You need deep pockets to be able to throw away 40m 'kitted out', and many experienced players do forget that one. Yeah, I can see 'hook' as being a use for them. They are just a 'heavy frigate' after all. They are genuinely nothing special for Fleet Action ( unlike Bombers & 'Ceptors ). 40 mil is chump change for pvp, so I'm not getting it for the pvp aspect. For pve it's not like you're going to lose the ship anyway so I don't get it there either. The price is fine and the skill requirements are fine. It's not about being an older rich player and forgetting. If you can't afford a 40 mil AF loss, then pvp probably isn't for you. I've said variations of this in different situations, but seriously - How many folks will pvp in a 30 mil AF that won't pvp in a 40 mil AF? I don't think it's that big of a number. The pvp draw isn't vast riches. It's the excitement and so many other non isk things. I'll never agree that making a pvp ship cheaper will pull more guys into the fold.
I have 7m PvP boats that are as fast as a 'Ceptor ( but not immune to Bubbles, obviously ). I think you're forgetting...
Just my tuppence. |
Gizzie Haslack
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.12.23 09:44:18 -
[24] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:Assault Frigs have always had a bad time fitting in. Their original role was as a small gang, fast moving, strike ship. When they were first released they had an okay tank, but were pretty expensive. Cruisers could essentially do the same things for cheaper less isk, and with a better tank. It always seems that with each developer pass, they are too expensive for what they do, or not tanky enough, or is outclassed by an already existing or newly released ship type.
I had hoped that when they applied changes to warp speed that these ships might fit into a niche a little better, but that still isn't happening.
What they really need is a long term "think" on their roles.. and maybe even a reduction of ships from two down to one per race to make it easier to balance out. Personally, I think the AFs should have been the ones with the warp bubble nullification, instead of the ceptors. That would have made AFs more of a niche ship, but since they are slower and less manuverable than Ceptors it would be easier to catch them in a well run gate camp.
If the AF was a T1 that would help A LOT. You'd still need the Assault Frigate skill to fly it, but cost-wise it would be saner for the lack of Va-va-voom they have. It's just a Heavy Frigate after all. It has no 'superpower'.
That could be it's Special Power. That much variability, and it's not financially crippling to lose so often ( they are regularly out-classed after all ).
A simple fix might just save it.
I have builds that fly as fast as a AF, and have almost as much tank, and they only cost 4m ( T1 ). So why even get into an AF, unless you are space-happy rich?
Or...
Keeping it T2 you could do this: Have it able to fit 2 Bomb Launchers? I'm thinking X-Wings and the clunkier Y-WIng Bombers here ( with the AF being the Bomber ). It may be a way to get people into EVE if they can think 'X-Wing & Y-Wing' in how they do stuff.
It gets 2 Bomb Launchers as it cannot do Cov-Ops. A proper old-skool Bombar, and no-one is doing that at present ( Cov Ops versions can only have 1 Bomb Launcher after all, and are mostly Torpedo Boats ).
#Topical, as Defender Missiles are currently a hot subject too. |
Gizzie Haslack
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.12.23 10:17:58 -
[25] - Quote
Gizzie Haslack wrote:
Keeping it T2 you could do this: Have it able to fit 2 Bomb Launchers? I'm thinking X-Wings and the clunkier Y-WIng Bombers here ( with the AF being the Bomber ). It may be a way to get people into EVE if they can think 'X-Wing & Y-Wing' in how they do stuff. Much as we can't steal Star Wars stuff directly we can be inspired by them.
It gets 2 Bomb Launchers as it cannot do Cov-Ops. A proper old-skool Bomber, and no-one is doing that at present ( Cov Ops versions can only have 1 Bomb Launcher after all, and are mostly Torpedo Boats ).
#Topical, as Defender Missiles are currently a hot subject too.
Taking it further. Why have just 2 AF's per race? Normal Friggies get 4-5 roles per race after all. I can see 3-4 major rolls for Heavy Frigates here:
1) Old Skool Bomber ( 2 Bomb Bays ) with a couple of Size S guns.
2) Torpedo Boat ( 2 launchers allowed ) with a couple of Size S guns.
3) 4 Size M guns. A proper 'blockade-buster' Frigate. Small, with some beefy punch to it.
4) Heavy Logi Frigate. With extra power conduits to cover the sizeable Cap drain Logi stuff can do.
With the extra slots ( 4 mid & 4 low typically ) for either shield or armour tanking.
Now *that's* a boat or 2 worth 25m plus fit. |
Omar Alharazaad
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
3097
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Posted - 2016.12.23 10:58:02 -
[26] - Quote
I'll admit they do need some love, despite being some of my favorite ships in the game. Someone a while back suggested maybe giving them resistance to energy neutralizers/vamps... I like that, but I doubt it'll happen. I think someone else mentioned the idea of making their MWD's immune to the shut down effect from scrams, also an attractive idea, albeit potentially overbalanced.
Either way, CCP does need to do something for them... even if that something is a savage nerfing of T3D's.
That said, I'mma never stop flying my Ishkur. No other frigate I've flown has allowed me to melt the face off of a dessie with my drones without pausing in badtouching to death the battleship of some hapless mission runner. The small sig radius coupled with the high resist profile and fairly 'decent' speed allows them to survive rather well in high level mission pockets, often allowing you to tank not only the mission runner, but the entire pocket as well simultaneously.
Granted, my use of them is very niche and as such should not be a metric for their overall application.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18499
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Posted - 2016.12.23 12:05:08 -
[27] - Quote
Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.
T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2395
|
Posted - 2016.12.23 12:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!
They did, it was horribly broken.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. When did AF have an AB bonus???
If they did I'm pretty sure I would have been enyo-face and loving it.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2395
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Posted - 2016.12.23 12:23:25 -
[29] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.
T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them.
I agree, but it's not like AF disappeared from use when T3d were put in the game. The moved from a poor choice down to a really poor choice.
As far as balancing. I think 1v1 a T3d should beat an AF more often than not all other things being relatively equal. I think if 2 AF get a hold of 1 T3d - it should most likely be done for. So T3d a little bit better on average than AF, but not able to take down 2 AF no problem.
I still like the AB bonus. It's pretty easy to balance just by throttling said bonus. I think your other post of 'horribly broken' is garbage. AF were my first love in the game and I've kept up on them. There has never been a time in Eve where any AF was 'horribly broken' or even on the list for FOTM.
Broken Ship List (historical, not meaning currently broken) Dram Falcon Ishtar Orthrus T3 cruiser (tanks) T3 dessy Moros Tracking titans Mym/Drake (tanks) Hurricane (I would argue just awesome back in the day, but any ship that everyone flies.....)
I'm sure there are a few others to varying degrees. There were just never any AF on that list. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18499
|
Posted - 2016.12.23 12:35:08 -
[30] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:baltec1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: If they got an AB bonus, so they could keep their speed up when scrammed - that would be Fozzielicious!
They did, it was horribly broken. I'm not sure what you are talking about. When did AF have an AB bonus??? If they did I'm pretty sure I would have been enyo-face and loving it. It was the first plan back when they got teiricide. Everyone quickly agreed it was a bad idea so it got shelved. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18499
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Posted - 2016.12.23 12:38:11 -
[31] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:baltec1 wrote:Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.
T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them. I agree, but it's not like AF disappeared from use when T3d were put in the game. The moved from a poor choice down to a really poor choice. As far as balancing. I think 1v1 a T3d should beat an AF more often than not all other things being relatively equal. I think if 2 AF get a hold of 1 T3d - it should most likely be done for. So T3d a little bit better on average than AF, but not able to take down 2 AF no problem. I still like the AB bonus. It's pretty easy to balance just by throttling said bonus. I think your other post of 'horribly broken' is garbage. AF were my first love in the game and I've kept up on them. There has never been a time in Eve where any AF was 'horribly broken' or even on the list for FOTM. Broken Ship List (historical, not meaning currently broken) Dram Falcon Ishtar Orthrus T3 cruiser (tanks) T3 dessy Moros Tracking titans Mym/Drake (tanks) Hurricane (I would argue just awesome back in the day, but any ship that everyone flies.....) I'm sure there are a few others to varying degrees. There were just never any AF on that list.
Duel masb hawk, the ishkur was also heavily bitched about. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
738
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Posted - 2016.12.23 12:51:27 -
[32] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:baltec1 wrote:Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.
T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them. I agree, but it's not like AF disappeared from use when T3d were put in the game. The moved from a poor choice down to a really poor choice. As far as balancing. I think 1v1 a T3d should beat an AF more often than not all other things being relatively equal. I think if 2 AF get a hold of 1 T3d - it should most likely be done for. So T3d a little bit better on average than AF, but not able to take down 2 AF no problem. I still like the AB bonus. It's pretty easy to balance just by throttling said bonus. I think your other post of 'horribly broken' is garbage. AF were my first love in the game and I've kept up on them. There has never been a time in Eve where any AF was 'horribly broken' or even on the list for FOTM. Broken Ship List (historical, not meaning currently broken) Dram Falcon Ishtar Orthrus T3 cruiser (tanks) T3 dessy Moros Tracking titans Mym/Drake (tanks) Hurricane (I would argue just awesome back in the day, but any ship that everyone flies.....) I'm sure there are a few others to varying degrees. There were just never any AF on that list. Duel masb hawk, the ishkur was also heavily bitched about. Don't forget the Ibis. Those things are EVERYWHERE. Plus they jumped in popularity after the latest AT tournament where one of them jammed out a Vindicator.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Zimmy Zeta
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
59985
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Posted - 2016.12.25 13:53:01 -
[33] - Quote
Gizzie Haslack wrote:
Keeping it T2 you could do this: Have it able to fit 2 Bomb Launchers? I'm thinking X-Wings and the clunkier Y-WIng Bombers here ( with the AF being the Bomber ). It may be a way to get people into EVE if they can think 'X-Wing & Y-Wing' in how they do stuff. Much as we can't steal Star Wars stuff directly we can be inspired by them.
It gets 2 Bomb Launchers as it cannot do Cov-Ops. A proper old-skool Bomber, and no-one is doing that at present ( Cov Ops versions can only have 1 Bomb Launcher after all, and are mostly Torpedo Boats ).
#Topical, as Defender Missiles are currently a hot subject too.
That sounds overpowered as hell. How about they go the other way around and make AFs dedicated anti-bomber units? With a role bonus that allows them to both detect and target cloaked ships... Not sure if this is possible as far as game mechanics are concerned, and we would miss out on a lot of delcious whine threads about afk cloakers...
I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it.
Yes, I do feel bad about it.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18283
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Posted - 2016.12.25 14:11:06 -
[34] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.
T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them.
AFs weren't exactly popular before T3Ds were introduced. Nerfing Jackdaws won't make Hawks popular, because RLML caracals, not to mention Storks will still exist, not to mention Talwars. When you're contemplating making essentially all of the small and medium ship range worse to try and make one class popular again, then maybe, just maaaaaaaaaaybe, it's time to consider applying a positive incentive to fly AFs instead of punishing people for not flying them.
"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."
Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18516
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Posted - 2016.12.27 19:03:14 -
[35] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Best buff for assault frigates is for t3d to be nerfed down to the level of t1 destroyers, each "mode" bumps the affected stats up to t2 level.
T3d would still be adaptable without shitting on everything around them. AFs weren't exactly popular before T3Ds were introduced. Nerfing Jackdaws won't make Hawks popular, because RLML caracals, not to mention Storks will still exist, not to mention Talwars. When you're contemplating making essentially all of the small and medium ship range worse to try and make one class popular again, then maybe, just maaaaaaaaaaybe, it's time to consider applying a positive incentive to fly AFs instead of punishing people for not flying them.
Oh it's not just one ship class I'm thinking of there, it's everything from the stabber down. I have a deep seated dislike for t3s. |
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
23
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Posted - 2016.12.27 21:24:44 -
[36] - Quote
On another thread discussing this, I think the best suggestion put forward for fixing AFs was to give them a bonus for Overheating, and base a lot of their niche functionality around that: -Faster in-space module repair -either increased Overheat module bonus or decreased Overheat damage.
By implementing this, it could potentially allow AF to temporarily out perform much of their competition on speed, damage and/or tank, if only for a limited time. |
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
411
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Posted - 2016.12.29 16:40:55 -
[37] - Quote
I don't agree with either making them a T1 ship nor giving them bombs/torpedoes.....we have ship lines for that already.
AFs need a whole new role, not just variations on already existing roles.
Say no to ship tiers: Making them T1 just obsoletes all other T1 combat frigs. If they are just upgrades to tank/DPS, they immediately obsolete the other T1 frigs, hence the reason they are T2. The whole point of them being an upgraded version of a frigate was increased skill investment and cost. We already had 'tiers' in the ship lines and spent several expansions getting rid of those tiers.
Bombs are already situational, and pretty much rely on cloaking to get into position. Just adding a second bomb launcher to an AF won't make it any more viable or useful than something with a CovOps cloak to go with it. Also, individual bombers are basically worthless in combat, so you'd essentially be relegating the AF to a fleet ship with virtually no use to the individual or solo player. At least a solo bomber can scout cloaked and light covert cynos.
Straight upgrades to tank/DPS isn't a fleet 'role' per se, and brings a bunch of balance issues about. The time/cost sink must be sufficient to separate them from T1 ships, but must not be so powerful that it infringes on the next class of ship. AFs violate all of that. They are a time/cost sink over T1, but not worth it compared to the next ship class, Destroyers. The T3D s especially did even more to damage the AF class. This is why I advocate for an entirely new role for AFs (and change HACs to follow suit). It's the nature of the role the ship plays that is the problem here, and upgraded tank/DPS as a role, fails. |
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