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Rediroriad Asdorad
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
3
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Posted - 2016.12.28 13:32:57 -
[1] - Quote
Hello everyone,
I would like to talk a bit about the current state of drone boats and a way to possible get them into a more fun and less OP state. And yes im going to tell about how overpowered they are and these suggestions are indeed nerf, but as it stand they are just too strong for what they are. Which can already be noted from the fact that you probably do not want your ship, in which you are winning almost every fight, to be nerfed.
As it stands the Ttristan, Vexor and Myrmidon are incredibly strong for their class. Sadly I do no know much about the Dominix so I will skip that one but the same idea might be applied to it. So, what does make the 3 ships named above so strong is that they get their main DPS out of drones and their secondary dps out of guns. Or, if content with the drone dps, an insane amount of control in the form of energy neutralizers.
The Tristan already gets a bit limited on the dps from it's highslots by only having 2 guns and not having any damage bonusses. Still, having 3 highslots to put in energy neutralizers makes the neut variant in my opinion just a tad too strong leaving the opponent without a real chance to fight back.
For the Tristan I suggest removing one highslot, keep the 2 turret highslots. That way the possible damage output stays the same but it removes a bit of the overwhelming energy neutralizer power it has so that the Tristan is more fun to engage.
The Vexor is a bit of a different story in that it actually gets 2 damage bonusses. Although my main focus is the energy neutralizers for these ideas, the Vexor is also capable of getting a ridiculous amount of dps. Only to be out done by the Exequror Navy Issue and the Vigilant, while still have a t1 cruiser compettive tank. Besides that the energy neutralizer variant of the Vexor is in my opinion it's strongest form, having access to 4 neutralizers. Which is, just like the Tristan for frigates, capable of drying out almost every t1 cruiser while still being very decent on its damage output.
So for the Vexor I am also suggesting to remove an Highslot, with the fitting costs for it reduced aswell. I think, to keep the Vexor still interesting, it would be nice to see for the 3 remaining highslot to only have 2 turret hard point. while getting its damage bonus for guns increased to 15% per level. That way the total possible damage output is slightly nerfed to having 3,5 effective guns but still stays relevant. While also pointing the fitting ideas for a vexor towards energy neutralizers by having that one utility highslot. But not making it uncounterably strong.
The Myrmidon is mostly known for it's amazing repairing power, and although in my opinion that is a bit to strong, I do not want to touch on that further in here. The Myrmidon has actually a pretty decent, but certainly not (too) high, damage potential. So for that I would like to keep the Myrmidon the same, but with its 5 midslots and 5 highslots is exceptionally good at energy neutralizers while still maintaining it's core use, active armor repping. As seen from most PvP Myrmidon fits the highslots are either used for energy neutralizers or just filled up with whatever size guns managed to fit.
The Myrmidon can, in my opinion easily lose 2 highslots to keep it's energy neutralizing part in check. In return, to compensate the damage potential, increasing the drone damage bonus to 12,5% or even 15%.
In closing, I would like to see the droneboats overall lose some highslots, with their fitting costs, and in return get their ship bonusses slightly increased to compensate for the loss in damage potential. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3529
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Posted - 2016.12.28 15:53:36 -
[2] - Quote
It seems you issue is with energy neutralizes and not with drones boats.
Also drone ships already have less slots than non drone based ships.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
3003
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Posted - 2016.12.28 16:39:54 -
[3] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:It seems you issue is with energy neutralizes and not with drones boats.
Also drone ships already have less slots than non drone based ships. Wow, really?
It seems pretty clear to me that his problem is with the drone boats' ability to so easily put aside their turrets to get more utility highs.
A drone ship loses less weapon power from the loss of a turret than other ships do. I don't feel that drone ships are overpowered (I think they're balanced in other ridiculous ways such as making the drones weak or reducing their base powergrid), but their balance is so broken that they don't even fit in the regular ship lineup. You can't compare their raw stats with other ships to determine which is stronger, because the baseline ways they operate are alien and incompatible. The only way CCP is able to balance drone boats is by buffing or nerfing them based on how the playerbase uses them, and I've a hunch the balance isn't the same between Tranquility and Serenity--yet both servers get the same balance changes. And all those changes accomplish is make some fits underpowered while leaving some fits slightly overpowered (like neutralizer fits), and none of it is actually balanced.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Cade Windstalker
676
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Posted - 2016.12.28 16:40:26 -
[4] - Quote
I'm not really convinced this is actually the issue you say it is. Drone boats are certainly strong in some circumstances, but you've done nothing here to convince me that they're OP especially with how many times they've been rebalanced already. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1103
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Posted - 2016.12.28 16:51:59 -
[5] - Quote
Not convinced there is a problem here that needs to be solved based on the kill boards I see and my personal experiences with my low sec character. Setting that aside and going with the spirit of discussing your idea anyway.
Drones in their current form always have been and always will be a balance nightmare.
If you balance the ships at the beginning of a fight, then the loss of even a single drone tips that balance against the drones ship, this is essentially what would happen with your idea.
Make the drones ship slightly OP to start and as you note above the non-drones pilots have a big hurdle to clear just to balance things.
So the real question is how do we deal with this fundamental aspect of the drones problem? One way is to make drones indestructible, makes balance in combat easy but raises some serious concerns for the market side of the game.
Drones and or the ships that use them could have a damage / hit point modifier that changes based on the number of drones in space thus eliminating one balance hassle but raises concerns for more than a few additional balance related hassles. |
Nikolai Mazinkov
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
6
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Posted - 2016.12.28 18:03:10 -
[6] - Quote
Drone boats need no nerf, don't listen to the Red Federation menace :P
On a serious note while they have high DPS potential for their class it is usually with dual weapons or little tank or low speed. The variety they provide as a class is necessary vs other races or the Gallente Blaster boats, just as other races vary weapons or utility. Making them solely drone ships without guns would probably create a need to buff to drones, and just sounds ludicrous.
Removing a mid would make them Amarr crap boats, removing a low would kill their tank in most cases. Leave my favorite ships alone :P
"Momento Mori", Remember That You Must Die
www.rvbeve.com
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3654
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Posted - 2016.12.29 02:55:50 -
[7] - Quote
Neuts are very powerful against active tanking in a 1v1. Might it be you're trying to fight ships that hard counter you in a situation that suits them well?
Neuts are pretty grid intensive as well. A vexor that wants to fit 4 med neuts is left with very little room for tank, prop mod and the booster needed to run those neuts. So compromises are made.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1554
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Posted - 2016.12.29 10:33:10 -
[8] - Quote
Just a few weeks ago I heard that all the people in lowsec want to fly the Curse all day and with her current price tag, she is an expensive loss mail. So what you gotta do is you fit neuts on errrthing that has a dronebay and call it a day.
Drone boats are fine. The Curse is fine but the Arbitrator need some love to make her the Curse light we want her to be.
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
3003
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Posted - 2016.12.29 10:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:the Arbitrator need some love to make her the Curse light we want her to be. Howabout Pilgrim light?
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1555
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Posted - 2016.12.29 11:00:09 -
[10] - Quote
Yeah okay a Pilgrim then. But the Arbitrator has a limited cargo hold for liquid ozone
Jokes aside, the Arbitrator could become a strong ship with just a little powergrid.
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3657
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Posted - 2016.12.29 13:36:01 -
[11] - Quote
It may allow for more active countering of drones if drones worked in 'wings' like fighters and could be locked in groups.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Cade Windstalker
680
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Posted - 2016.12.29 14:05:38 -
[12] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:It may allow for more active countering of drones if drones worked in 'wings' like fighters and could be locked in groups.
This actually has the potential to make drone-boats stronger if you can still active-rep drones, and if you can't then it's just a massive nerf.
On top of that does it just damage the top drone in the stack, or randomly spread damage? If the latter that's a pretty big buff, especially if you can still RR drones.
What about recalling damaged drones? Can't do it anymore?
Overall this probably causes more problems than it solves.
The only reason it sort-of worked for Fighters was because A. they were already in a pretty bad spot so less complaining, and B. they rebalanced the only ships that used Fighters around the changes. Doing the same to drones would probably be the single biggest set of changes CCP have made to the game in the last 10 years or so. At least since the nano-nerf or the early missile changes. |
Darth Kendari
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2016.12.29 20:37:39 -
[13] - Quote
Honestly, this is nothing more than a poorly veiled nerf call based on some kind of personal issues had when you were pvping.
I am so happy CCP does not give this kind of post more merit than it deserves which is none.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3796
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Posted - 2016.12.29 23:39:48 -
[14] - Quote
The drone wing idea is one that CCP has been looking at doing for quite a long time, as it gives them a number of extra tools for balancing drones while reducing server load.
Advantages (For CCP mainly) to the 'swarm' treatment.
* Increased control of them. * Ships can be balanced on both bandwidth & number of swarms allowed. I.e. you could have high bandwidth but only a couple of swarms encouraging you towards heavy drones, or lower bandwidth but four tubes meaning you can use lots of lights. * Utility drones can be allowed or disallowed on a per tube basis, like with fighters. Meaning you aren't dealing with as wide a range of scenario's for balancing drones any more.
Obvious disadvantages do include things like how do you remote repair drones. Which while it could be balanced around not being able to do that any more and there are points in the lore that would go with that, would need significant changes to go with it. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3662
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Posted - 2016.12.30 01:41:08 -
[15] - Quote
I don't know if its that big a buff even if you can rep them. They don't broadcast for reps and you cant watch list them. Anyone trying to solo with drones and rep them is losing valuable neut slots (lol) and non-dedicated logi don't have much range on RR. What are you gonna do have your logi wing pre-lock them up instead of more valuable ships?
Its also easier to alpha a drone from a swarm so it can't be repaired.
Im seeing little down side.
Edit-they also reduce server load.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Cade Windstalker
682
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Posted - 2016.12.30 04:40:19 -
[16] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:The drone wing idea is one that CCP has been looking at doing for quite a long time, as it gives them a number of extra tools for balancing drones while reducing server load. Advantages (For CCP mainly) to the 'swarm' treatment. * Increased control of them. * Ships can be balanced on both bandwidth & number of swarms allowed. I.e. you could have high bandwidth but only a couple of swarms encouraging you towards heavy drones, or lower bandwidth but four tubes meaning you can use lots of lights. * Utility drones can be allowed or disallowed on a per tube basis, like with fighters. Meaning you aren't dealing with as wide a range of scenario's for balancing drones any more.
Obvious disadvantages do include things like how do you remote repair drones. Which while it could be balanced around not being able to do that any more and there are points in the lore that would go with that, would need significant changes to go with it.
While this is an interesting idea, and I think it has its good points, I don't think the state of drones is nearly as bad as Fighters were to the point that they need this kind of drastic rework.
Also the sheer scope of going through literally nearly every ship in the game and reworking their drone balance is massive. I can think of at least four entire classes of ships I'd rather CCP re-balance rather than put that much effort into something of kind of questionable benefit, that would massively shift how combat works, and generate a massive stream of player complaints. All to 'fix' something that may not actually be a problem.
I don't think this is a bad idea, I just think it's waaaaay more work than it's worth compared to, say, T3Cs, AFs, Titans, and Recon Cruisers all getting re-balanced for about the same amount of effort. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3797
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Posted - 2016.12.30 05:00:26 -
[17] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: While this is an interesting idea, and I think it has its good points, I don't think the state of drones is nearly as bad as Fighters were to the point that they need this kind of drastic rework.
The server load is the big thing behind it. It would turn most boats from 5 individual drones to 1 swarm. And the way objects on grid interact make it a variant of the handshake game, which is an exponential curve, not a linear one. So dropping 200 drone boats on grid dropping 5 drones each for 1200 objects to a mere 400 objects is a huge performance increase.
Exactly how important this is now that TQ3 is here, and 200 Domi's can no longer crash even a reinforced node by dropping drones all at once, that's a different question, but that is likely where fighters grew out of, and with fighters they probably already have a lot of the initial code needed to do it. |
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels
45
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Posted - 2016.12.30 07:33:06 -
[18] - Quote
I thought the drone counter was smartbombs or other drones? Why not use some new hulls or refit old hull and make t2s for smart bomb purposes of if you think drones are overpowered
Mass ejection cruiser/frigaye role bonus: 25% greater smart bomb range Or something like x% less capacitor.
Ejection cruiser bonus per level: 10% less damage to friendly and neutral targets by smartbombs and X% less fitting requirement or damage/cycle time/fitting reduction based on race or smart bomb types, (em bomb bonuses for smart, exp bonuses for minmatar etc)
And then Regular cruiser/frigate bonuses per level. Dedicated anti drone platforms that could do okay in close combat without bonuses to weapon damage and no turret slots. Although tbh I've never used smartbombs, I'm not sure if they use turret slots or not. I dont think they do.
Or even just a basic t1 cruiser or frigate. It might be cool to see a new dedicated smart bomb ship type of warfare as an option. Then you'd have an easier time against drones. |
ACESsigepps
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2016.12.30 12:28:02 -
[19] - Quote
Fly something bigger or add more alts. Problem solved like most pvp situations... soon you'll learn about the blob.
If you need to remind players EVE is a pvp game, there may be an underlying problem rooted so deeply you tend to ignore the obvious.
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