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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1804
|
Posted - 2016.12.29 21:09:04 -
[1] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Why so many skills? Its about crumbs.
Why so big leap between level 4 and 5? Yes it is a very deep game. The Devs can be quoted having said repeatedly that this is a game about decisions and consequences. They want you to have to make hard decisions and live with the consequences.
The above qualifier out of the way... Unlike other MMOs you can participate in almost any activity in game from day 1. You don't need to be "level capped" to do anything. This is a game about doing more with less.
Each level of a skill take 5 times longer to train than the previous level, while only giving the same amount of benefit. This game rewards diversification and having options open to you.
I will just link here my typical Suitonia link. That is an experienced vet on a days old alt doing very well for himself. I just link it to prove to new players that this is not a game about skill points and under no circumstances should you be waiting on skills to train nor expecting "gear" to make the game easy. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1804
|
Posted - 2016.12.29 21:19:49 -
[2] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:My point of this is said Memphis Baas. 34 years to get all level5.
34 years!!! Thats beyond comprehension. Nothing lasts that long. Couldnt like 5 years be a cap? There is no level cap in this game. There is no end-game content that you need to get to level cap to participate in. 6 months into this game you can be very well skilled for small ships ( frigs and dessies ) and a year into this game you can be very close to "all level 5" for frigs and dessies.
There is no reason why you need to train all of your skills to level 5 nor should you even be thinking about that. I think you just need to let go of a level cap concept that you have likely been programmed into from most other MMOs. Eve is not like those other MMOs.
I personally like the system very much. Coming up in this game I always had the skills to do what I needed to do and new skills came at a pretty decent rate. 2 years into the game you still get to unlock some cool stuff and be excited about getting access to it while still not being held back for not being "level capped".
I am at a point now where I train skills just to train them. I am nowhere near all level 5 but I have not trained a skill that has made a noticeable difference in a long time.
I think if you give the game a chance you will see that it is a pretty good system as compared to other games. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1804
|
Posted - 2016.12.29 21:29:33 -
[3] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Hmm, dont know if it exists such an option but some form of regret-replacement of skillpoints would be super.
Pay some ISK to have a space clinic to replace some of your bad decision training.
You might want to try another path after 4 years without having to create a new character or account.
None of the skills work against you. If you want to train something new then train it. There is no reason for you to have to start over. You can specialize in mining and then realize that you like combat more and then train up combat. I can think of no situation where you are better off starting over than just training those skills on your current character.
You could train up a mining character and a combat character if you wanted to be able to specialize each one. People do that kind of thing and there can be benefits to doing it that way. I'm just saying that once you've trained up the skills for mining you are still better off switching your current character to combat skills rather than starting over.
It is really sounding to me like you are stuck in the character class mentality which does not exist in this game. This sandbox is quiet fun IMHO if you just let go of what you learned in other games and give this one a try with fresh eyes. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1804
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 05:13:18 -
[4] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:
- One of the ideas behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment share with Tech 2/3 and Faction ships/equipment. Example: you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast frigate that does something similar.
As usual Uncle Shah is right on the money. What I have quoted above is probably the best advice that you will find in this thread, maybe anywhere.
To get good at this game you will need experience. To become experienced at this game requires donating some hulls to the war gods ( getting blown up ). Those lessons that you learn from each ship loss will all be learned the same regardless of if you have 200K skill points when you learn them or 200 million skill points when you learn them. Further those lessons will be learned the same regardless of if you learn them in a 500K isk frig or a 100 million isk frig.
So since we have established that player skills are far more important than character skills. You are far better off focusing more on what you as a player are learning rather than worrying about the skills that your character has.
Eve is a game about learning how to do more with less. The most tracked PvP statistic in this game is isk lost versus isk destroyed. Not how many times that you have gotten blown up nor how many kills that you've been involved in but what is the ratio of the total isk value of the ships that you've lost versus the total isk value of all of the ships that you have destroyed.
You could loose thirty nine 500K isk T1 frigates in a row and then blow up one 20 million isk T2 frigate and still have a positive kill efficiency and be considered successful. Even in large null sec sov battles where thousands of ships are destroyed, everyone scrolls right to the bottom of the battle report to see which side lost more isk than the other. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1806
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Posted - 2016.12.31 01:06:04 -
[5] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote: Got caught in the hype. Only played 2 weeks, everywhere is mandatory skillplans and players buying skillinjectors for ALOT of money.
A few things to keep in mind:
Skill injectors give you less skill points as you go up in skill points also the more skill points that you have the less good that each injector does for you since your skill levels take more and more skill points to attain. As a result I would imagine that the percentage of people buying injectors who are new players is much higher than in the rest of Eve.
Most players coming to Eve are coming from other MMOs. Most other MMOs have mechanics that make so that a player a few levels above another player or with a better gearscore has such an extreme advantage that it can't be over come. So they come to Eve and play with that as their default mentality. TBH you really can't learn that is not the case in Eve until you've gotten both the experience and the skill points and then go back and play on a low skill point alt later on.
Egos are involved here and when people fail at doing something they typically are quick to point the finger in every direction but inward.
Keeping all of the above in mind you can't blame new players for thinking that they can buy their way to glory in this game, it just happens to not be true. Even when us vets tell the new players that it is not the case they just think that we are forgetting how hard it is to be on a new character ( not realizing most of us have played on low skill point alts ).
TL;dr It's one of those " you don't know what hot is until you have touched fire" kind of things.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1808
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Posted - 2016.12.31 19:47:24 -
[6] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Sorry but I cant let this go.
Took a look at the ingame shiptree.
If you want to be good at flying a Leviathan you need skills worth 1333 days!
4 years to fly a ship? Admit it fanboys, this cant be right. Wouldnt this game be more awesome with more variety in ships?
Edit: thats not even worst case. You are correct that you can't seem to "let this go" but what "this" is seems to be more relevant.
Titans are intentionally a very long train. When the game was first made the Devs thought that there would be very few Titans in game. They are insanely expensive, difficult, and time consuming to build. Until very recently ( the introduction of citadels a couple months back ) you could not dock Titans and thus they were essentially coffins meaning once you got inside one you were in it until you got blown up.
As such nearly all, if not all, Titan pilots have been alts. Alts that did not get used much. Further most Titan pilots would just sit inside a PoS while they were logged on and provide bridges to cyno beacons for other pilots that were actually doing stuff. This is not deep and engaging game play that any pilot is looking to commit to on his / her main.
Eve is not a linear "progression" MMO. There is no end game in Eve. Years from now you will still be flying the very same cheap T1 small and medium ships into PvP that you are flying now. So please explain to me what aspects of Eve you are missing out on by not being able to fly a Titan in your first year of gameplay? After you answer that then look at how expensive one is and tell me how long you think it would take you to be able to afford one. After you answer that I want you to tell me how long you think you would need to play the game for it to make sense for you to jump a Titan into battle.
It seems to me that what you are having a hard time letting go of is the MO of other games. Eve is very different from other MMOs and if you are going to enjoy Eve for what it is you need to let go of the preconceived notions that have been taught to you by other games. I have said before that to both enjoy Eve and be good at Eve you first need to either let go of or maybe even unlearn everything that other MMOs have taught you.
I can't say this enough Eve is not a progression MMO. You are not going from Frigs to dessies to cruisers to BC etc.... You can participate in pretty much every aspect of this game on day one. You can contribute in a meaningful way on day one. The only thing holding you back in this game is you.
The only thing that most Eve pilots who have had any experience with Titans like about Titans is either having access to use the jump bridge of one or being on a KM for one. Both of those things you can do with a Titan on day one.
So I suggest you quit focusing on what ships that you can not yet fly and start focusing on the knowledge and experience that you don't yet have.
https://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=3346 Just as a side note maybe you might want to wait until you have 6 Billion disposable isk laying around to spend on the skillbook before you start whinning about the long training time to get into the ship. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1808
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 20:06:41 -
[7] - Quote
Judging from more recent posts I am guessing that you did not watch the 17 Day old Rifter Trial Account PvP video, from the eveiseasy youtube channel, that I linked in post 19.
I can understand you not having watched it since it is a 45 minute long video so I will sum it up for you.
Suitonia is an experienced Eve PvP vet and has made videos on brand new trial account alts back before alphas existed. Those trial account characters started out with around 56K skill points and the video in question was made when that character was between 10 - 17 days old. His fits are intentionally cheap, iirc they are about 3.5 millioin isk fully fit, using only mods available to very new players. At the time the video was made skill injectors did not exist so it's not even possible for him to have much more than 700K skill points at the end of the making of this video.
In the video he goes out and wins PvP encounters against years old characters in much more expensive T2 frigates. At one point in the video he solos 3 interceptors and winds up killing two of them before he gets blown up and almost gets the third. Which is a huge win in pretty much anyone's book.
I think you should probably start to think about what it is that you would like to do in this game and start focusing on that. If you don't know what you want to do then start trying lots of stuff until you figure it out.
It seems to me like you are trying to figure out what you want to do when you are level capped and you are playing the wrong game for that. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1808
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:14:57 -
[8] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Im hopeless, I know.
Okay forget the level cap thing and instead have a specific amount of skillpoints that you can have? Like fitting a ship, use your points visely.
Also doesnt the skillinjectors open for that pay 2 win (dominate) direction? You are far from hopeless just learning.
My first year in this game was a rough ride for me. Mostly because I had a hard time letting go of things that I learned in WoW. I was playing this game as if it were WoW and this game kicked my ass. This is mostly why I forum warrior here in the NC Q&A because I want to help new converts get past it quicker than I did.
As far as pay to win that might be true if: - This were a free to play game, which it is not and - Skill points determined the winner in PvP
Eve is a subscription based game with an unlimited duration free trial period. I know CCP tries to sell it as if it were F2P but it's not it is a subscription game.
Combat in this game is about counter's and match ups. Every ship and pretty much every module and even every specific load out has situation where it can dominate and also it's exact counter. Winning at PvP in this game has a lot to do with know when to fight and when to run. Most PvP encounters are won or lost before the first shot is fired. There is an awful lot of meta gaming here. Meaning that you typically have to convince your opponent that he has a chance to win while at the same time making sure that he doesn't. Keeping in mind that he is trying to do the same.
Balance in this game is not about making sure that each ship has an equal chance to win against every other ship. It's about making sure that each ship has enough situations where it is good and enough where it is not.
You also have to keep in mind that there is no queueable PvP with a set number of players against the exact same number of players of the same level with similar gearscores or ratings. You can play the Damsel in distress in this game just to have a bunch of friends jump in and join the fight as soon as you get the other guys to commit to combat. You can pick a solo fight against someone in a ship that you think would be a fairly even match for you but there is nothing stopping him from providing a warp to point for a fleet of 20 of his closest friends. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1809
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:20:31 -
[9] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Hmm, not easy to know what you want.
One side wants WoT-like epic battles, another side wants to explore. Even roaming around in a small group doin helpful things would be nice.
Hell, crusin that fearsome lookin Rokh would be nice.
All this before nursery-home though. You can do all of this. Nothing stopping you from doing any of it. One thing to note about this game. Since it is a sandbox there is no structure to make specific things happen. You can do anything that you want in this game but you have to make it happen. After the tutorials the game is not going to hold your hand and walk you through anything.
If you want to get involved in huge null sec battles then you need to find a null sec corp that does that. Exploring in a small group and day tripping into wormholes can also be easily done in that same null sec corp.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:@ergherhdfgh
Watched til 17 mins. Maan, I felt like a ******. No clue what Im doin. Ya I figured as much which is why I summed it up for you. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1809
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:32:26 -
[10] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: On a personal note though... you will find a great many people in EVE (including myself) to be a little disgruntled by the skill injector system. It is a "the principle of the matter" for us.
For me it was that before skill injectors I would occasionally see the random new player that purchased a high skill point character thinking that he could buy glory in this game and then come here to the forums and cry about how unfair the game was.
It was a long hard struggle to show the guy that the very fact that you could not pay to win in this game was the definition of fair. It blew my mind that people could try to pay to win and then fail and somehow see that is proof that the game was "not fair".
Anyway I knew that the skill injectors would only further the problem with new players thinking that they could pay to win. It seems to me that it has.
It just seems funny to me that you can tell a new player that this game is about what you know not your skill points nor what they are flying. They won't believe you, they can go out and trying to pay to win by buying skill points and blinging out a ship and then when they realize for themselves that this is true they then say that the game is not fair because vets have all of the advantage even with cheaper ships and lower skill points.
You have to learn this game to be good at it. Sitting around waiting for skill points to train or complaining about the skill points that you don't have won't teach you this game. Going out and playing it will. Once you learn the game and get good at it you will be able to win even on cheaper ships and even with lower skill points.
So just go out and get your experience. |
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1814
|
Posted - 2017.01.02 03:23:25 -
[11] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote: Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.
It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.
What you know and, more importantly, who you know are the key factors. The 10% rat of fire increase on your lazors won't do you any good when your opponent neuts you to zero cap, but your three buddies two systems over will help a bunch.
Trasch Taranogas wrote: Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated and depending on fittings and skills.
Fitting is an art not a skill. Piloting might be a skill but some people make it look like art also.
We already went over how skill points don't mean nearly as much as most new players think they do. I already told you about how Suitonia on an alt with a couple hundred thousand skill points can beat 3 pilots with at least tens of milllions of skill points in much more expensively fit T2 frigates, so I'm thinking that you aren't talking about skill points.
When you say fitting... There is no best in slot for anything in this game. There is no "best fit" for any ship. There is only good fits for specific situations. In some cases fitting a ship poorly can get you a win because your opponent was assuming that you had a more standard fit.
You choose your fit and you choose when to engage or run. So I'm not really clear on where you are saying this game seems unfair when winning comes down to things completely within your control.
However I will agree with you that this game is indeed not fair. There really is no way to get a truly fair fight in this game. I would go so far as to say that fairness has nothing to do with this game. This game is all about turning the odds in your favor. Making it unfair for your opponent. The only problem is that at the same time you need to make your opponent think that he has the advantage or there won't be a fight.
So it's fair in the sense that everyone is trying to make it unfair for everyone else.
Trasch Taranogas wrote: You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot. You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should not be brushed off but atleast considered.
There are a lot of things that I suggested early on for which I was told to let go of and that they were not good ideas for this game. After having played for a while I found out what those other guys were talking about and have since "corrected" other new players for suggestions that I myself made early on.
More importantly I think that trying to give advice on how this game could be made better when you don't even really know how to play it yet seems unproductive. I mean you aren't really wasting much of our time but unproductive for yourself. You can't really learn the subtle ins and outs of this game when your are focusing on what is wrong with it.
Play the game for what it is and learn it as is and then make suggestions once you know more about it. When we tell you that your ideas of how to "improve Eve" are not valid we are not telling you that you are wrong and need to STFU. We are hinting that there is an aspect of what you are suggesting that you don't yet understand and if you just hang in there, we feel, that you will figure it out and understand why it is not that way.
WIth regards to piloting and aiming. You don't have to pilot or aim in the first person sense but you certainly do have to pilot and aim in this game. If you just tell your ship to orbit at optimal and then hit fire you will have trouble winning any PvP engagements. Learn about manual piloting and learn about controlling range. You need to have at least a concept of how to do both of those before you can expect to even survive long in any encounters.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.
I can only speak for myself on this. I never saw alpha clones as blasphemy or even a bad idea. However I was and still am very unpleased with CCP's decision to market it as F2P when in actuality it is just an unlimited trial, much like WoW being free to level 20. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1814
|
Posted - 2017.01.02 03:34:56 -
[12] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Looking good, too bad VR hasnt taken off yet. No wonder Eve Online has lost a bit of motherly love when this project has been the focus. Actually the CCP devs made the first version of that game pretty much on their own time. CCP has a thing where on Fridays devs can work on what ever they want. It's a goof off day for them. So some of them made the first working version of this game and they showed it at a fan fest a few years back just to show what they could do goofing off.
It was not until fans started asking when it was coming out that CCP even considered developing the game.
As far as VR not taking off yet... CCP has a history of trend setting. They take chances and do some bleeding edge stuff. IMHO they are a huge part of what is pushing the gaming industry. I think that they have way more influence than their market share alone warrants. |
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