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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2016.12.29 17:12:34 -
[1] - Quote
Why so many skills? Its about crumbs.
Why so big leap between level 4 and 5?
I miss my IS-7
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Netan MalDoran
Planet Squanch
271
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Posted - 2016.12.29 17:43:16 -
[2] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Why so many skills? Its about crumbs.
Why so big leap between level 4 and 5?
1: Complex game = lots of options. 2: Well the null beats need something to train while they're blasting roids :p
"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Falcon's truth
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Arx Hammer
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2
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Posted - 2016.12.29 17:43:44 -
[3] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Why so many skills? Its about crumbs.
Why so big leap between level 4 and 5?
Not sure what's confusing about that.
Lots of skills because lots of things to do.
Why the big leap? Same reason there is a big leap to get from lvl 99 to lvl 100 in any other game... |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2016.12.29 18:50:58 -
[4] - Quote
Arx Hammer wrote:
Why the big leap? Same reason there is a big leap to get from lvl 99 to lvl 100 in any other game...
I read somewhere that level 4 is 20% SP to get 80% advantage.
That last bit of gain is so ridiculous its not even worth getting as many are saying. Cloaking as an example.
I miss my IS-7
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
334
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Posted - 2016.12.29 18:58:06 -
[5] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Arx Hammer wrote:
Why the big leap? Same reason there is a big leap to get from lvl 99 to lvl 100 in any other game...
I read somewhere that level 4 is 20% SP to get 80% advantage. That last bit of gain is so ridiculous its not even worth getting as many are saying. Cloaking as an example.
It's the other way around. Lvl 4 means you have 80% of the bonus. The last 20% takes longer to train than the rest of the skill combined.
Wormholer for life.
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Memphis Baas
2601
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Posted - 2016.12.29 19:04:58 -
[6] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Why so many skills? Its about crumbs. Why so big leap between level 4 and 5?
1. You're asking questions that only the developers know the answer to. Why so many skills? I don't know, that's how they envisioned the game. Ships provide a shell, modules you have on your ship give you the abilities (not the skills themselves), and the skills give bonuses / unlock things. It's a system.
2. The leap is the same between all levels:
Level 1: requires 250 points Level 2: 1414 Level 3: 8000 Level 4: 45255 Level 5: 256000
It's a geometric progression. You're supposed stop yourself at "good enough". Training "everything to 5" takes 34 years, so you better stop yourself.
It's designed that way so you can prioritize, like everyone else. Do you want to get another point in your ship, or in the armor skill, or in the speed skill, or what? As opposed to the other guy.
Again, there are no race or class limits that block you from training whatever you want. Warriors can't heal, wizards can't tank. From that point of view, it's a pretty good system.
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Lena Crews
Universal Sanitation Corporation
6
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Posted - 2016.12.29 19:09:52 -
[7] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Arx Hammer wrote:
Why the big leap? Same reason there is a big leap to get from lvl 99 to lvl 100 in any other game...
I read somewhere that level 4 is 20% SP to get 80% advantage. That last bit of gain is so ridiculous its not even worth getting as many are saying. Cloaking as an example.
But some lvl 5's are pre-requisites for using items. For example for T2 ships you need the racial ship skill at lvl 5. So if you want to fly the Ishtar... you need Gallente Cruiser to V.
Other lvl 5's are pre-requisites to other skills. Drones V is needed for a boatload of higher level drones skills... so while having 4 drones vs 5 is a debatable increase... having 5 drones WITH drone sharpshooting, drone interfacing, racial drone specialization (for T2 drones), ewar drone interfacing, heavy and sentry drones.... well that is a HUGE increase in your ability to use drones. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2016.12.29 19:22:54 -
[8] - Quote
@Lena Crews @Memphis Baas
Yes, drones are almost mandatory to have at level 5.
As you say, Its impossible to get all skills to level 5. (Unless you pay 28000$)
That makes so many skills and especially levels that are "useless" and / or unnecessary, seems like a waste just to confuse players.
I miss my IS-7
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Memphis Baas
2602
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Posted - 2016.12.29 19:23:28 -
[9] - Quote
All of it is like that.
CCP balances ships assuming "all skills at 5", because they have to, as it's a possibility.
So, technically if you only have 1 or 2 points in your skills, you're not even able to fit the ship as it's meant to be fitted.
Best example I can give is industrial ships. Alpha character, because of the skill limitations, can get maybe 8,000 cargo space. Veteran with skills at 5, rigs, T2 expanders, etc. gets 45,000 with a tricked-out Iteron 5. Or, since they probably have the prerequisites to fly freighters, just fly one of those for 350,000 or more cargo. |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
334
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Posted - 2016.12.29 19:28:04 -
[10] - Quote
Do note that most bonuses that you get from skills are 2-5% per skill level. It's not THAT huge difference between lvl 4 and lvl 5. There are some exceptions of course, the drones- skill for example. The idea is that you can relatively quickly train a bunch of skills to lvl 4 and be 80% as effective as someone who had those skills at 5, which would have taken then considerably longer to do.
Wormholer for life.
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2016.12.29 20:00:36 -
[11] - Quote
My point of this is said Memphis Baas. 34 years to get all level5.
34 years!!! Thats beyond comprehension. Nothing lasts that long. Couldnt like 5 years be a cap?
I miss my IS-7
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
2353
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Posted - 2016.12.29 20:05:47 -
[12] - Quote
why so many skills? It gives you a choice to train narrow and specific or wide and broad. I can justify the case for either, there are benefits for generalization and specialization, however the benefits come with trade offs.
As a new player you can cover a lot of ground training many skills to level 2 or 3 while learning the basics, making some income, and finding out what you like. From there you can pick a few important skills and push those to 4. Some of those skills will be very important and you will want to take them to 5, others can wait while you train more general skills to 4. Some skills you will train because you want the bonus, others because they are a prereq for a new ship, skill, or module. I consider weapon upgrades 4 to be a super important skill as access to tech 2 damage mods is a huge boost.
I'm looking at the mastery tab of a ship I like on one of my alts. He currently has level IV mastery, to get to level V mastery would take 211 days, I have no plans to train almost all of those skills on that character. I did train those skills on Plankton as I said it was a ship I like. However that character can use command bursts, which is an area I have barely touched on Plankton.
Many of those skills apply to many ships like the racial drone spec to 5 for an extra 2% damage on racial drones, which is really insignificant on most ships and not worth the 20 days x 4 skills for most people. In combat it isn't a very significant bonus however it helps get me closer to lv5 mastery on many ships. My goal is to have lv5 mastery on all subcaps and lets just say that is a long long goal.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
903
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Posted - 2016.12.29 20:21:58 -
[13] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:My point of this is said Memphis Baas. 34 years to get all level5.
34 years!!! Thats beyond comprehension. Nothing lasts that long. Couldnt like 5 years be a cap?
at that rate, I'd be well over 100m SP already
@lunettelulu7
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3010
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Posted - 2016.12.29 20:29:53 -
[14] - Quote
You're not supposed to get everything to 5.
You're supposed to specialize.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
21
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Posted - 2016.12.29 20:32:54 -
[15] - Quote
Hmm, dont know if it exists such an option but some form of regret-replacement of skillpoints would be super.
Pay some ISK to have a space clinic to replace some of your bad decision training.
You might want to try another path after 4 years without having to create a new character or account.
I miss my IS-7
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
2354
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Posted - 2016.12.29 20:37:34 -
[16] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:@Lena Crews @Memphis Baas
Yes, drones are almost mandatory to have at level 5.
As you say, Its impossible to get all skills to level 5. (Unless you pay 28000$)
That makes so many skills and especially levels that are "useless" and / or unnecessary, seems like a waste just to confuse players. luckily most of the skills are irrelevant and are safely ignored, like science, industry, production, resource harvesting, structure things.
only need gun and spaceship skills! Some drones and fitting help.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
334
|
Posted - 2016.12.29 20:55:18 -
[17] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Hmm, dont know if it exists such an option but some form of regret-replacement of skillpoints would be super.
Pay some ISK to have a space clinic to replace some of your bad decision training.
You might want to try another path after 4 years without having to create a new character or account.
Then you just train to other skills. You can train all the skills you want (as omega). You don't have to choose what you can and cannot train. You just have to choose the priority of each skill for you.
Wormholer for life.
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Skyweir Kinnison
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
366
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Posted - 2016.12.29 21:08:37 -
[18] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Hmm, dont know if it exists such an option but some form of regret-replacement of skillpoints would be super.
Pay some ISK to have a space clinic to replace some of your bad decision training.
You might want to try another path after 4 years without having to create a new character or account.
You can use aurum or isk to buy skill extractors that do just this. Extract some skills you don't need any more and then use the resulting skill injector to gain the skill points back so you can distribute them where you now need them. There is a degree of loss each time, but it's possible to change careers like this.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1804
|
Posted - 2016.12.29 21:09:04 -
[19] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Why so many skills? Its about crumbs.
Why so big leap between level 4 and 5? Yes it is a very deep game. The Devs can be quoted having said repeatedly that this is a game about decisions and consequences. They want you to have to make hard decisions and live with the consequences.
The above qualifier out of the way... Unlike other MMOs you can participate in almost any activity in game from day 1. You don't need to be "level capped" to do anything. This is a game about doing more with less.
Each level of a skill take 5 times longer to train than the previous level, while only giving the same amount of benefit. This game rewards diversification and having options open to you.
I will just link here my typical Suitonia link. That is an experienced vet on a days old alt doing very well for himself. I just link it to prove to new players that this is not a game about skill points and under no circumstances should you be waiting on skills to train nor expecting "gear" to make the game easy. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1804
|
Posted - 2016.12.29 21:19:49 -
[20] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:My point of this is said Memphis Baas. 34 years to get all level5.
34 years!!! Thats beyond comprehension. Nothing lasts that long. Couldnt like 5 years be a cap? There is no level cap in this game. There is no end-game content that you need to get to level cap to participate in. 6 months into this game you can be very well skilled for small ships ( frigs and dessies ) and a year into this game you can be very close to "all level 5" for frigs and dessies.
There is no reason why you need to train all of your skills to level 5 nor should you even be thinking about that. I think you just need to let go of a level cap concept that you have likely been programmed into from most other MMOs. Eve is not like those other MMOs.
I personally like the system very much. Coming up in this game I always had the skills to do what I needed to do and new skills came at a pretty decent rate. 2 years into the game you still get to unlock some cool stuff and be excited about getting access to it while still not being held back for not being "level capped".
I am at a point now where I train skills just to train them. I am nowhere near all level 5 but I have not trained a skill that has made a noticeable difference in a long time.
I think if you give the game a chance you will see that it is a pretty good system as compared to other games. |
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1804
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Posted - 2016.12.29 21:29:33 -
[21] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Hmm, dont know if it exists such an option but some form of regret-replacement of skillpoints would be super.
Pay some ISK to have a space clinic to replace some of your bad decision training.
You might want to try another path after 4 years without having to create a new character or account.
None of the skills work against you. If you want to train something new then train it. There is no reason for you to have to start over. You can specialize in mining and then realize that you like combat more and then train up combat. I can think of no situation where you are better off starting over than just training those skills on your current character.
You could train up a mining character and a combat character if you wanted to be able to specialize each one. People do that kind of thing and there can be benefits to doing it that way. I'm just saying that once you've trained up the skills for mining you are still better off switching your current character to combat skills rather than starting over.
It is really sounding to me like you are stuck in the character class mentality which does not exist in this game. This sandbox is quiet fun IMHO if you just let go of what you learned in other games and give this one a try with fresh eyes. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2016.12.29 21:48:03 -
[22] - Quote
Okay, good points.
Anyway, especially if you are a confused Alpha with slow skill learning and realize you have taken some stupid / unnecessary skills it would be nice to reset those skillpoints.
Also it takes some effort to start doing skillinjectors. (5500000 SP)
I miss my IS-7
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Memphis Baas
2604
|
Posted - 2016.12.29 22:06:57 -
[23] - Quote
For now, just stop training the skills you think are useless, and start training the skills you think are good.
Later, you can use skill extractors to remove those. But you have to wait until you're past 5.5m SP, and also wait until you have enough ISKs to afford skill extractors.
This is a SLOW game. Stop, think, plan ahead, give it time to train. If you want to play fast games, feel free to play a FPS shooter or dogfight game or whatever.
EDIT: And if you don't like EVE, then don't play. It's just a game, shrug. Play something else. No sense playing if all it does is gets you frustrated and annoyed. Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2016.12.29 22:21:12 -
[24] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:For now, just stop training the skills you think are useless, and start training the skills you think are good.
Later, you can use skill extractors to remove those. But you have to wait until you're past 5.5m SP, and also wait until you have enough ISKs to afford skill extractors.
This is a SLOW game. Stop, think, plan ahead, give it time to train. If you want to play fast games, feel free to play a FPS shooter or dogfight game or whatever.
EDIT: And if you don't like EVE, then don't play. It's just a game, shrug. Play something else. No sense playing if all it does is gets you frustrated and annoyed. Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating.
No, dont get me wrong. I had a supershitty start and swore every day I would never play this game again. Well Im still here. I downloaded some corp skillplans and I have a good queue going.
Only thing is that all those skills seems... fake? Overambitious? Wow-factorish? Eyecandy? Much do about nothing? Cant find the word.
Especially that level 4 to 5 jump.
I miss my IS-7
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Memphis Baas
2604
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Posted - 2016.12.29 22:38:38 -
[25] - Quote
Several skills in the Missiles category:
Missile Launcher Operation - unlock missile weapon systems Light Missiles - be able to shoot missiles designed for frigates, bonus to damage Missile Bombardment - bonus to range Missile Precision - bonus to hit smaller targets than what the missile is designed for Missile Projection - bonus to speed (range) Rapid Launch - bonus to rate of fire (DPS) Target Navigation Prediction - bonus to hit faster targets than what the missile is designed for Warhead Upgrades - bonus to damage
Light Missile Specialization - unlock Tech 2 missiles, bonus to damage.
So, several skills, you feel the need to train all of them to 3-4? Ok that'll take a while.
But you're also arguing against the number of skills, I'm guessing you'd prefer 2 skills:
Missile Launcher Operation - unlock missile weapon systems Light Missiles - shoot light missiles, and also bonus to their range, DPS, speed, and how well they hit smaller targets.
Question is, would you be OK with these two skills taking as long as those other skills together? 2 weeks for 2 skills?
So yeah, there's a wait, you're blocked from accessing the better versions of the missiles because you have to wait for skills. People want to see progress, though; it's better to hear "skill training complete" daily for 2 weeks than it is to hear "skill training complete" once, at the end of 2 weeks.
And also, a point that we can't demonstrate until you've gained some experience with the game, the bonuses in this game are multiplicative. It's better to have 8 bonuses of 15% each than it is to have a single 120% bonus from a single skill. Because 8 bonuses of 15% each are: 1.15 * 1.15 * 1 .15 * ... * 1.15 = 3.06 = 206% bonus, better than 120% bonus.
This game works on multiplying together small bonuses from various sources: from your ship, skills, modules, implants, drugs, fleet boosts, rigs, overheating. This type of multiplicative math allows for very high complexity and many combinations, much like the simple moves in chess or go allow for complex matches.
We don't want to replace this with a simple 1 skill system.
EDIT: EVE is a strategy game, like an RTS or chess. First you learn how to move the pieces (fly the ships), then you get to the real game of strategy and how to beat opponents or even huge alliances, conquer the map, become somebody. People discuss the game mechanics and try to invent new fittings to get a slight bonus here or there, and the fact that it's spaceships, in space, becomes secondary, much like the fact that the chess pieces are supposed to be an army with foot-soldiers, knights, bishops, etc., doesn't matter that much for the actual match.
People like EVE because of its complexity, not because of spaceships or lasers shooting. People like chess because of its complexity, not because it's a simulated medieval melee combat scenario. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11269
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 01:44:11 -
[26] - Quote
I will post my old skillpoints speil when I get home.
And answer all the OPs questions
How did you Veterans start?
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Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
411
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Posted - 2016.12.30 02:37:27 -
[27] - Quote
it makes sense that the higher you train something, the more and more you need to train to get any significant increase.
This holds true for most anything. Going to the gym? Big gains at first but then you have to get ridiculous to make even small gains after that. Diets? Easy to lose 10-20 pounds quickly, but beyond that it takes serious effort. Horsepower? It's easy to get to 180mph, but breaking 200mph requires basically a whole other engine worth of power. Shooting? Just being able to make a gun function will hit a large target, but it takes a huge amount of time to hit MOA consistently.
Thus, Eve training follows suit and makes perfect sense. Whether that small gain is worth it depends on your situation.
Consider the solo PvP guys that make videos. Even with blingy fits and tons of skill and experience, most still barely survive a battle. Deep in structure, a couple modules burnt out, limping away from the battle. Those extra 2% this or 4% that often make the difference between victory and loss. Those guys make or break their game on margins that small. If you just run endless PvE in high sec, then those margins don't really matter.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11270
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Posted - 2016.12.30 04:05:24 -
[28] - Quote
Okay... so here is the lay of the land:
How does the skillpoint system work?
- All skills cap at level 5. No matter how many years you have played the game, you cannot exceed that limit. And lower tier skills (ex. [Racial] Frigate) are very quick to train relative to more advanced skills.
- (*this is the important one*) Only a limited number of skills affect any one ship, module, weapon system, and specialty at any given time.
Ex1: You are a newbie facing someone with about 20 million SP... but how much of that overall SP is actually combat related? He/she could be a HUGE industrial player with limited combat skills. Ex2: A veteran player has just trained up the skill Large Hybrid Turret to level 5. That skill in no way affects the skill Small Hybrid Turret and thus the veteran will be no better or worse than before at the frigate level.
- Getting a skill from level 4 to level 5 only adds on an extra 2% here, 5% there (exceptions apply). If you simply train up all the skills within a given specialty to level 4 (which takes ~20% of the amount of time it takes to get those skills to level 5), you will find yourself flying at about **80 to 90%** of the effectiveness of a multi-year veteran with those same skills maxed out.
- Getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be a painful train. Many players (yes, even veteran ones) opt to avoid doing it and instead train up other skills to level 4 (again, because it's faster).
Example: I personally have the T2 weapon specializations at level 4. That puts me at a 2% disadvantage in damage against someone who has the same skill(s) at level 5 (assuming we are both using the same ship with the same fit)
- Ships and weapons have been balanced against one another.
Example: A battleship can potentially instapop a frigate... but the frigate can fly very fast, making it difficult for the battleship's weapons to track, especially at very close range... then again, the battleship can deploy drones to deal with the frigate... and the frigate can shoot the drones down... however the battleship might have a Large Energy Neutralizer fitted to nuke the frigate's capacitor power every 24 seconds... in which case the frigate could use a Small Nosferatu that sucks out capacitor from the battleship every 3 seconds... etc. etc.
- High tech equipment (ex. T2, Faction, Officer, etc) will not give a player "I WIN" abilities. They simply give a player a linear edge at an exponentially higher cost.
Ex1: A basic T1 Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~10% omni-resistance to damage for only 100 thousand ISK... a T2 Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~15% omni resistance to damage for 1 million ISK... a "deadpsace" Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~19% omni resistance to damage for 15 to 20 million ISK.
Ex2: A group of three or four T1-fit frigates that cost about 500 thousand to 1 million ISK CAN kill a faction frigate worth about 50 to 100 million ISK... provided they are using the right mods in the right configuration and know what they are doing. https://zkillboard.com/kill/39793460/ (Condors caught me and ground me down... I only had time to kill one of them) https://zkillboard.com/kill/38239838/ (all the Breechers in this KM were T1 fit... I could only kill two of them before being nuked)
What does this all mean?
- Having more skillpoints is not the "end all, be all" point of the game and there is more to most activities than "get enough skillpoints, open window, click, press F1- F9." There are a plethora of factors that can decide success or failure and many of them are purely abstract in nature (see: planning, meta-gaming, friends, short-term allies, making deals, psychological warfare, etc).
- One of the ideas behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment share with Tech 2/3 and Faction ships/equipment. Example: you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast frigate that does something similar.
- Once you have your "universal" core and support skills near or at maximum (which takes about 2 or 3 months of mostly focused training) the gap between you and an older player begins to narrow quite significantly. You can find these skills in the "Engineering" section of your character skillsheet.
- Just because you are limited in what you can do (as a newbie) it does not mean that your contribution to a team is meaningless and/or without weight. Being a "tackler" or cheapo Ewar-support in PvP might indeed be suicide if you have limited skills and knowledge... but even half-success can mean the difference between catching or losing a target... everyone escaping a bad situation or dying in a fire.
How did you Veterans start?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11270
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 04:06:09 -
[29] - Quote
To answer the rest of the questions:
Quote:Why so many skills? There are a lot of things to do and specialize in EVE.
Industry has a HUGE chunk of skills dedicated to it.
Ship skills can be broadly divided up in "Core Skills" (skills that any ship can utilize) and "Specialty Skills" (see: skills related to a specific class, tactic, and/or weapon).
This provides lots of variety to the kinds of tactics that players can specialize in.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Why so big leap between level 4 and 5? With the exception of "prerequisite skills"...
The "time sink" is there to force you to make a choice; will you spend a lot of time training to get that 2 to 5% edge over other players in that specialty... or will you stop at level 4 and move on to something else?
Trasch Taranogas wrote:As you say, Its impossible to get all skills to level 5. (Unless you pay 28000$)
That makes so many skills and especially levels that are "useless" and / or unnecessary, seems like a waste just to confuse players. Through normal gameplay it is impossible, yes.
You are not supposed to be able to train ** everything ** to max level (not in a "reasonable" amount of time, that is)
And there is no such thing as a "wasted skill." There are skills you find useful now and those you do not find useful.
Someone out there may find a use for that skill you saw as "useless."
Which is the point.
If you find yourself in a situation where you need a skill, but it would take too long to get it (or train it) you can always ask another player who does have that skill to help you.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Hmm, dont know if it exists such an option but some form of regret-replacement of skillpoints would be super.
Pay some ISK to have a space clinic to replace some of your bad decision training.
You might want to try another path after 4 years without having to create a new character or account. Do not worry about it.
Alpha clones can train all of the skills listed under their limitations without penalty.
I will also note that no skill in the game will lock you out or prevent you from training other skills.
For example: I used to mine back when I was a newbie (circa 2009) I decided I hated it. So I trained up combat skills.
Years later I can still fly mining ships if I choose to. I can also fly almost any combat subcapital ship in the game. Tomorrow, I may decide to train some industry skills.
I can do all that without having to start a new character because there is no limit to what I can train into.
The only "penalty" is time.
How did you Veterans start?
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1804
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Posted - 2016.12.30 05:13:18 -
[30] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:
- One of the ideas behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment share with Tech 2/3 and Faction ships/equipment. Example: you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast frigate that does something similar.
As usual Uncle Shah is right on the money. What I have quoted above is probably the best advice that you will find in this thread, maybe anywhere.
To get good at this game you will need experience. To become experienced at this game requires donating some hulls to the war gods ( getting blown up ). Those lessons that you learn from each ship loss will all be learned the same regardless of if you have 200K skill points when you learn them or 200 million skill points when you learn them. Further those lessons will be learned the same regardless of if you learn them in a 500K isk frig or a 100 million isk frig.
So since we have established that player skills are far more important than character skills. You are far better off focusing more on what you as a player are learning rather than worrying about the skills that your character has.
Eve is a game about learning how to do more with less. The most tracked PvP statistic in this game is isk lost versus isk destroyed. Not how many times that you have gotten blown up nor how many kills that you've been involved in but what is the ratio of the total isk value of the ships that you've lost versus the total isk value of all of the ships that you have destroyed.
You could loose thirty nine 500K isk T1 frigates in a row and then blow up one 20 million isk T2 frigate and still have a positive kill efficiency and be considered successful. Even in large null sec sov battles where thousands of ships are destroyed, everyone scrolls right to the bottom of the battle report to see which side lost more isk than the other. |
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Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
1159
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 07:10:44 -
[31] - Quote
First up, after much head scratching, I've come to the conclusion that there's absolutely nothing in EVE an Alpha can't actively participate in.
You may not be able to fly a Dreadnaught, but you can certainly tackle one for your fleet and enjoy watching it go boom. You may not be able to light a Cyno, but you can take a Titan Bridge to one.
Even cloaky Black Ops fleets are open to you, you can sit in a brick tanked Vexor (for example) and act as bait while the cloaky cyno/tackle ship sits nearby waiting for someone to take a nibble at you so they can light the Cyno and together you proceed to drop a hundred bombers and BLOPS Battleships on some poor fool's head.
Goonswarm has a great meme/ad thingy about exactly THIS.
An Alpha sitting in a Maulus or Crucifier can effectively shut down three 100m SP pilots and prevent or minimise their damage potential. One keen Alpha in a Griffin can save a capital ship by jamming out tackle.
Give me a keen young Alpha clone, bright eyed and excited in their T1 EWAR or Tackle Frigates and Cruisers over a bored, jaded, whinging bittervet in their ISK2b battleship any and every day of the week.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:I read somewhere that level 4 is 20% SP to get 80% advantage.
That last bit of gain is so ridiculous its not even worth getting as many are saying. Cloaking as an example.
In some cases, you are correct in that last IV-V gain is rather pithy for the time investment required, Cloaking, as you identified, is a good example.
There's also plenty of examples of where level V skills can allow you to do some amazing things that you couldn't do with level IV skills. The core fitting skills come to mind here. There's some really nifty ship fits out there that require you to squeeze every last bit of Powergrid and CPU possible out of your hull. Powergrid/CPU Management, Weapons Upgrades, Advanced Weapons Upgrades, Energy Grid Upgrades and the like are all 'fitting skills'.
Then, there's a few skills that you have no choice but to train to V if you're set on a certain path. Advanced Spaceship Command V comes to mind.
Logistics Cruisers V is another one. Take it from a LogiBro, the difference between IV and V in the logistics wing is HUGE, especially when we're talking Guardians and Basilisks which establish a capacitor transfer chain. Logi V is flat out demanded by most logi wings and logi IV is usually only very briefly tolerated if you're actively training to V. The reason is simple: A Logi V Guardian is cap stable. A Logi IV Guardian generally isn't. In a long battle, the Logi IV bros will cap out and when they do, the whole cap chain can collapse, capping out the Logi V pilots and leaving the entire fleet at the mercy of your opponents.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Major Trant
Mass Collapse It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
1556
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 10:14:21 -
[32] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:My point of this is said Memphis Baas. 34 years to get all level5.
34 years!!! Thats beyond comprehension. Nothing lasts that long. Couldnt like 5 years be a cap? I would point out that in many cases level V opens the doors to new skills or T2 equipment, it isn't just a 20% gain on the previous level. Some skills though are 'almost' worthless to train to V. Cloaking V, any racial T3 Cruiser, Jury Rigging etc.
I've been subscribed to this game on this char for 6 years and at the moment I'm excited because I'm 2 days away from the final skill to get into Black Ops Battleships. This skill will have zero impact on most players and PvP engagements I get involved in as it's use will be very limited. But I'm drooling at the prospect of fitting up my first Black Ops BS. I should add that this char can't fly caps and Dreads is my next big thing to aim for. I don't inject SP btw.
If skills stopped at IV I would have everything on every char on this account already and probably playing another game, but this post would still be here complaining about IV being the 80% effort for a miserable gain. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
6332
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 13:10:08 -
[33] - Quote
Just a couple of points, if there was a 5 year cap:
I'd have max skills now. There are a _lot_ of players who have been around longer than I have.
With the longer skill train, the difference between an old character, and a new character is less pronounced. Sure, I've been playing for 5 years, but I don't have everything at max, and pwn everyone. I had to pick where to specialise
If you pick somewhere else, it could be a hard counter for what I picked.
It makes the skill training decisions more meaningful.
However, one thing to bear in mind is, once you hit a certain point, you're not getting 'better'. You're just getting more flexible. Instead of being 20% better with a ship, you have another ship available. (training into a different race, for example)
Woo! CSM XI!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Professor Sternu Tarantoga
The Futurological Congress
49
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 13:11:01 -
[34] - Quote
If your skill queue would end after 5 or 10 years and there was nothing more to train.. now much old school players would have quit EVE by now? And even if they stayed every old clone would have exactly the same set of maxxed skills. And about the skill progression: I like it that I can catch up to 80% on most fits in a moderate amount of time while the vets get their 20% bonus for their skills at level 5. Seems to be quite balanced to me.
As we progress our skills without grind (like most other games do) it should take some time to reach the same level as year old pilots or those players would feel a bit screwed. 80% doesn't feel to weak as a new player and I don't get the feeling I couldn't stand a chance against vets at all.
EDIT.. ninjaed by a CSM.. |
mkint
1332
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 15:30:28 -
[35] - Quote
OP is right. Max SP for everyone! Infinite resources for everyone! God mode for everyone!
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 16:29:08 -
[36] - Quote
Oh boy.
Thank you everybody for the response!
Very well explained. I kinda get it now.
There has emerged another question. Seems that the importance of equipping the ship could be far more important than training some level of skill?
Are we too obsessed about skills (those who dont unlock others)?
One of the biggest handicap an Alpha has is the lack of cloaking skill, or?
I miss my IS-7
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3224
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 16:46:15 -
[37] - Quote
Yes, we are all obsessed with skillpoints, unfortunately this does not stop soon...
But you got it, personal skill and knowledge (knowing the mechanics and twists, resulting also in efficient fits) are much more important than a lvl5 skill.
Cloaking is a serious restriction, but necessary to avoid abuse.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Keno Skir
1130
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 16:53:21 -
[38] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Oh boy.
Thank you everybody for the response!
Very well explained. I kinda get it now.
There has emerged another question. Seems that the importance of equipping the ship could be far more important than training some level of skill?
Are we too obsessed about skills (those who dont unlock others)?
One of the biggest handicap an Alpha has is the lack of cloaking skill, or?
Actual skills (how to approach, what to shoot or not shoot etc) are far more important and meaningful than SP skills (flying t2 ships etc).
I have several Alphas successfully living in wormhole space as explorers currently, they don;t seem to be held back much by lack of cloak (because they've been taught actual skills).
How you fit your ship is generally more important than the extra few % of whatever skill. This is demonstrated by vets rolling new characters and winning fights in them with next to no SP. It has been shown that actual skills will generally win a fight against someone with lots of SP but no actual skills.
Keep it up, pop by here if you're confused, stay humble and don't wait for skills too much. Think to yourself "how can i do this with what i have, rather than waiting for the skills".
Fly dangerous
<Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï>
Including ISK Bonus & In Game Assistance - Piracy / Wormhole Space / Covops PvP
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Memphis Baas
2612
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 21:11:46 -
[39] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Seems that the importance of equipping the ship could be far more important than training some level of skill?
Equipping the ship properly IS much more important that the skills you trained.
You're the one who's been focusing on skills.
Basic guidelines. Advice from a PVP veteran. Video. Fitting the Alpha clone ships. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 21:25:15 -
[40] - Quote
Got caught in the hype. Only played 2 weeks, everywhere is mandatory skillplans and players buying skillinjectors for ALOT of money.
I miss my IS-7
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Lena Crews
Universal Sanitation Corporation
13
|
Posted - 2016.12.30 21:58:28 -
[41] - Quote
Well... I understand how fitting is important.
But you have to have the skills to make the fit work too. Or to use the proper equipment. To me it feels like there is a certain set of skills... particularly fitting skills and skills to get you into the most crucial T2 equipment for the ships you fly with early on.
the list of truly necessary skills is probably smaller than most of us think it is though. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1806
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 01:06:04 -
[42] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote: Got caught in the hype. Only played 2 weeks, everywhere is mandatory skillplans and players buying skillinjectors for ALOT of money.
A few things to keep in mind:
Skill injectors give you less skill points as you go up in skill points also the more skill points that you have the less good that each injector does for you since your skill levels take more and more skill points to attain. As a result I would imagine that the percentage of people buying injectors who are new players is much higher than in the rest of Eve.
Most players coming to Eve are coming from other MMOs. Most other MMOs have mechanics that make so that a player a few levels above another player or with a better gearscore has such an extreme advantage that it can't be over come. So they come to Eve and play with that as their default mentality. TBH you really can't learn that is not the case in Eve until you've gotten both the experience and the skill points and then go back and play on a low skill point alt later on.
Egos are involved here and when people fail at doing something they typically are quick to point the finger in every direction but inward.
Keeping all of the above in mind you can't blame new players for thinking that they can buy their way to glory in this game, it just happens to not be true. Even when us vets tell the new players that it is not the case they just think that we are forgetting how hard it is to be on a new character ( not realizing most of us have played on low skill point alts ).
TL;dr It's one of those " you don't know what hot is until you have touched fire" kind of things.
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Memphis Baas
2615
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 03:23:41 -
[43] - Quote
Lena Crews wrote:The list of truly necessary skills is probably smaller than most of us think it is though.
There's organization in the skill system. You can categorize the skills by:
1. Ship skills (Spaceship Command group), these unlock new ships for you. 2. Weapon skills (Gunnery, Missiles, Drones), train only the weapons that your ship uses. 3. Support skills (Engineering, Armor, Shields, Targeting, Electronics, Navigation) these make all your ships fly better. 4. Miscellaneous (Industry, Science, Reprocessing, Trading, Planetary, Corporate, Neural, Social) - train as needed.
If you press the ^ arrow to reconfigure the character sheet to hide your portrait and shrink the skill categories to a single row of icons, the skill categories are ordered as above, from left to right.
Ship skills typically follow the progression lines shown in the Ship Chart in-game.
Weapon skills typically have: - one main skill that is a prerequisite - one skill per weapon that you want to unlock - two skills per weapon to unlock T2 versions of that weapon - weapon support skills that increase range, accuracy, damage, and performance of all weapons.
Support skills have various degrees of importance. Overall, you only need to train skills to 3 to unlock T2 defense modules (T2 armors, T2 shields), so that's nice (it used to be required to train to 5 a few years ago). In general, the bigger the ship that you're flying, the higher you should train the support skills; 2 is ok for frigates, 3 for cruisers, 4 for battleships, and capital ships are so costly that a lot of people go for 5 to minimize the chances of loss.
Miscellaneous skills are train what you want. Industry, for example, you can train the basic Industry and Mass Production skills to give you more than 1 factory line. Trading, it's probably sufficient to trade Trade and Retail to get a few more market slots, and then Accounting and Broker Relations to reduce taxes a bit. Planetary requires all the skills at 4 for good results, unfortunately. Social is nice if you want to manage your standings and offset the side-effects of FW or missions.
In any case, once you read a few ship fittings guides and get the gist of it, the skills will make a bit more sense too. Ships are limited by their slot layouts, and by their power grid and CPU, and the skills are designed to give bonuses to fit more or better gear into the ships, really. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 08:07:50 -
[44] - Quote
Seems my skills are in order so far since you point out those ship categories and T2 equipment.
I also have another character in hard training that I intend to use in chillout solo exploring, moneymaking.
Those skillsets seems more demanding.
I miss my IS-7
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 19:01:06 -
[45] - Quote
Sorry but I cant let this go.
Took a look at the ingame shiptree.
If you want to be good at flying a Leviathan you need skills worth 1333 days!
4 years to fly a ship? Admit it fanboys, this cant be right. Wouldnt this game be more awesome with more variety in ships?
Edit: thats not even worst case.
I miss my IS-7
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11283
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 19:42:04 -
[46] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Sorry but I cant let this go.
Took a look at the ingame shiptree.
If you want to be good at flying a Leviathan you need skills worth 1333 days!
4 years to fly a ship? Admit it fanboys, this cant be right. The game is assuming that you will train everything up to and relating to that ship to "max level" (hint: there are some skills you can disregard or not have to "max train").
More realistically, people who want to fly a Leviathan will only "max train" the Engineering skills, shield skills (most of them), and weapon skills (most of them). Then they will train up the minimum skills necessary to sit in the Leviathan and use it effectively.
That will take about a year and some change.
Also consider the following...
- It takes months and MASSIVE amounts of resources to build a Titan. You will not be able to do it solo. - Titans can only be built in 0.0 space... which takes lots of teamwork and organization to conquer and hold. - If you choose to buy a titan, you will be paying something in the range of 50 to 80 billion ISK. - Titans (and Supercarriers) can only dock in very large player-built station. This means you NEED a large support network to keep it safe when not in use. - Titans are extremely vulnerable to anything smaller than it. They are basically anti-capital support ships. This means they NEED other players in other ships to operate effectively.
One of the Golden Rules of EVE: "Bigger is not always better."
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Wouldnt this game be more awesome with more variety in ships? There are already a wide variety of ships you can get within a "reasonable amount of time."
There are...
- five Tech 1 Frigates per racial line ----- five Tech 2 Frigates per racial line ----- two Navy Faction Frigates per racial line ----- four Pirate Faction Frigates
That is 52 ((12 racial ships * 4 factions) + 4 Pirate frigates) ships you can potentially fly within the first few months of EVE.
And then there are Destroyers, Cruisers, Battlecruisers, and Battleships... each with their own racial, Tech 2, and Faction variants.
Just because you cannot effectively fly the "biggest ships" in the game in a short amount of time it does not mean there is no "variety."
And you will find that even the oldest and most experienced players will opt to use Frigates and Cruisers over Battleships and other "big ships" simply because they are the best tools for the situation.
EVE is not a game where the "biggest" and/or "most expensive" ship wins. EVE is not a game of "you need max skills or you are useless." EVE is not a game where "the best equipment makes you functionally immune to others."
Each ship is a tool with an inherent "usefulness" that you can utilize the moment you have access to it. Each module is something that can make your tool more useful and effective. And each skill you train will make the tools you have more effective and/or give you access to other tools.
How did you Veterans start?
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1808
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 19:47:24 -
[47] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Sorry but I cant let this go.
Took a look at the ingame shiptree.
If you want to be good at flying a Leviathan you need skills worth 1333 days!
4 years to fly a ship? Admit it fanboys, this cant be right. Wouldnt this game be more awesome with more variety in ships?
Edit: thats not even worst case. You are correct that you can't seem to "let this go" but what "this" is seems to be more relevant.
Titans are intentionally a very long train. When the game was first made the Devs thought that there would be very few Titans in game. They are insanely expensive, difficult, and time consuming to build. Until very recently ( the introduction of citadels a couple months back ) you could not dock Titans and thus they were essentially coffins meaning once you got inside one you were in it until you got blown up.
As such nearly all, if not all, Titan pilots have been alts. Alts that did not get used much. Further most Titan pilots would just sit inside a PoS while they were logged on and provide bridges to cyno beacons for other pilots that were actually doing stuff. This is not deep and engaging game play that any pilot is looking to commit to on his / her main.
Eve is not a linear "progression" MMO. There is no end game in Eve. Years from now you will still be flying the very same cheap T1 small and medium ships into PvP that you are flying now. So please explain to me what aspects of Eve you are missing out on by not being able to fly a Titan in your first year of gameplay? After you answer that then look at how expensive one is and tell me how long you think it would take you to be able to afford one. After you answer that I want you to tell me how long you think you would need to play the game for it to make sense for you to jump a Titan into battle.
It seems to me that what you are having a hard time letting go of is the MO of other games. Eve is very different from other MMOs and if you are going to enjoy Eve for what it is you need to let go of the preconceived notions that have been taught to you by other games. I have said before that to both enjoy Eve and be good at Eve you first need to either let go of or maybe even unlearn everything that other MMOs have taught you.
I can't say this enough Eve is not a progression MMO. You are not going from Frigs to dessies to cruisers to BC etc.... You can participate in pretty much every aspect of this game on day one. You can contribute in a meaningful way on day one. The only thing holding you back in this game is you.
The only thing that most Eve pilots who have had any experience with Titans like about Titans is either having access to use the jump bridge of one or being on a KM for one. Both of those things you can do with a Titan on day one.
So I suggest you quit focusing on what ships that you can not yet fly and start focusing on the knowledge and experience that you don't yet have.
https://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=3346 Just as a side note maybe you might want to wait until you have 6 Billion disposable isk laying around to spend on the skillbook before you start whinning about the long training time to get into the ship. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11284
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 19:56:39 -
[48] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:It seems to me that what you are having a hard time letting go of is the MO of other games. Eve is very different from other MMOs and if you are going to enjoy Eve for what it is you need to let go of the preconceived notions that have been taught to you by other games. This is my impression as well.
As ergh says... forget everything you have learned in other MMOs. It will not help you here.
How did you Veterans start?
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mkint
1333
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 20:03:53 -
[49] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Sorry but I cant let this go.
Took a look at the ingame shiptree.
If you want to be good at flying a Leviathan you need skills worth 1333 days!
4 years to fly a ship? Admit it fanboys, this cant be right. Wouldnt this game be more awesome with more variety in ships?
Edit: thats not even worst case. ugh, I'm getting beyond the point of wanting to be helpful here and would rather just make fun of you.
Some things are supposed to be hard. It's not that complicated. Your whole "oh I get it, bigger isn't always better" "I want bigger and better!" is... embarrassing. Memory of a goldfish. Rather than get into why titans, and most capitals, suck, I'm just going to say that your brain isn't right on this matter. Find fun where you can get it, and find something that's not imaginary to be angry about.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1808
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 20:06:41 -
[50] - Quote
Judging from more recent posts I am guessing that you did not watch the 17 Day old Rifter Trial Account PvP video, from the eveiseasy youtube channel, that I linked in post 19.
I can understand you not having watched it since it is a 45 minute long video so I will sum it up for you.
Suitonia is an experienced Eve PvP vet and has made videos on brand new trial account alts back before alphas existed. Those trial account characters started out with around 56K skill points and the video in question was made when that character was between 10 - 17 days old. His fits are intentionally cheap, iirc they are about 3.5 millioin isk fully fit, using only mods available to very new players. At the time the video was made skill injectors did not exist so it's not even possible for him to have much more than 700K skill points at the end of the making of this video.
In the video he goes out and wins PvP encounters against years old characters in much more expensive T2 frigates. At one point in the video he solos 3 interceptors and winds up killing two of them before he gets blown up and almost gets the third. Which is a huge win in pretty much anyone's book.
I think you should probably start to think about what it is that you would like to do in this game and start focusing on that. If you don't know what you want to do then start trying lots of stuff until you figure it out.
It seems to me like you are trying to figure out what you want to do when you are level capped and you are playing the wrong game for that. |
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 20:16:36 -
[51] - Quote
Im hopeless, I know.
Okay forget the level cap thing and instead have a specific amount of skillpoints that you can have? Like fitting a ship, use your points visely.
Also doesnt the skillinjectors open for that pay 2 win (dominate) direction?
I miss my IS-7
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 20:24:24 -
[52] - Quote
Hmm, not easy to know what you want.
One side wants WoT-like epic battles, another side wants to explore. Even roaming around in a small group doin helpful things would be nice.
I miss my IS-7
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 20:29:35 -
[53] - Quote
@ergherhdfgh
Watched til 17 mins. Maan, I felt like a ******. No clue what Im doin.
I miss my IS-7
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11284
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 20:46:33 -
[54] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Okay forget the level cap thing and instead have a specific amount of skillpoints that you can have? There is no limit to how many skillpoints you can have.
And as I said in an earlier post, no skill or specialty will prevent you from using another skill or specialty.
That said... only a finite amount of skills affect a finite amount of ships.
Some examples:
- I have mining skills and can mine asteroids quite effectively. But those skills do not affect my combat skills.
- I have skills that allow me to use large weapons. However this will not help me if I choose to use a Frigate (which uses only small weapons).
- I have Armor skills. However these skills will not help me if I am using a ship fit for shields. The same will hold true in reverse.
Basically... do not rely on "total skillpoints" as a metric for how "powerful" a player is.
Only a small fraction of a player's character skills can be used at any given time. The rest of those skillpoints simply gives a player options for what he/she can potentially use in the future.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Also doesnt the skillinjectors open for that pay 2 win (dominate) direction? Yes and no.
It will certainly give a player more options in what he/she can fly... and how effective those options can potentially be.
But if you do not know how to use those skillpoints (see: you have no experience) then they are fairly useless.
Example: I was attempting to bring a good friend into EVE. He complained that, because he had fewer skillpoints than I, he could not help me and would simply be smashed by another player like me.
So I performed an experiment. I let him use my character and let him pick out any ship in my hanger (he chose my Navy Omen). I used his character and built a cheapo "tackler" frigate (Rifter).
I challenged him to a duel.
Round 1: Cheapo-Tech 1 Rifter (Me) vs fully-fit Omen Navy Issue (My Friend)
I used my knowledge and experience to spin in circles around my friend. His Navy Omen could not hit me with the main weapons. And I killed all of his drones (leaving him without a counter to my ship).
He cried foul and said that I fit the frigate up to directly counter the "good ship." So we switched back to our respective characters.
Round 2: Cheapo-Tech 1 Rifter (My Friend) vs fully-fit Omen Navy Issue (Me)
I nuked him in 2 volleys using my knowledge of weapon tracking and range (note: he was "reimbursed" )
On a personal note though... you will find a great many people in EVE (including myself) to be a little disgruntled by the skill injector system. It is a "the principle of the matter" for us.
edit:
Quote:Hmm, not easy to know what you want.
One side wants WoT-like epic battles, another side wants to explore. Even roaming around in a small group doin helpful things would be nice. You will find that almost every activity in EVE is related to another activity in EVE. Pretty much everything is in conflict with everything else. This is what makes EVE so interesting.
Builders, haulers, and explorers need materials to make make money... so they need protection and safety from other players. At the same time... Builders, haulers, and explorers need to players to fight one another to create demand for their products.
Some want to run solo, but know that things are MUCH more difficult if they are confronted by a group of players working together... necessitating the solo players to work together.
Quote:Hell, crusin that fearsome lookin Rokh would be nice. Go for it... but do note that larger ships rely on teamwork to really function well.
A common situation is seeing a relative newbie in a battleship get swarmed and taken apart by a group of ****-fit Frigates.
Or die to a "non-combat ship."
How did you Veterans start?
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:01:08 -
[55] - Quote
I know Im a crybaby but thank you everyone for your patience.
I read all the answers but sometimes its like hebrew, especially those videos of pros makin it look easy, like changing socks.
I could apply for the dev. team and make this game better...
I miss my IS-7
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11284
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:07:48 -
[56] - Quote
The only two things the "pros" truly have over you is experience and knowledge.
That's it.
No... seriously... that is literally it.
If you learn how the weapon mechanics work, you can avoid incoming damage and maximize your own. If you learn how your Directional Scanner works and how to use it well, you can avoid unfavorable situations and hunt down favorable ones.
It simply takes time and a willingness to go out there and "duu eeeeeeet!!!"
How did you Veterans start?
|
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1808
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:14:57 -
[57] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Im hopeless, I know.
Okay forget the level cap thing and instead have a specific amount of skillpoints that you can have? Like fitting a ship, use your points visely.
Also doesnt the skillinjectors open for that pay 2 win (dominate) direction? You are far from hopeless just learning.
My first year in this game was a rough ride for me. Mostly because I had a hard time letting go of things that I learned in WoW. I was playing this game as if it were WoW and this game kicked my ass. This is mostly why I forum warrior here in the NC Q&A because I want to help new converts get past it quicker than I did.
As far as pay to win that might be true if: - This were a free to play game, which it is not and - Skill points determined the winner in PvP
Eve is a subscription based game with an unlimited duration free trial period. I know CCP tries to sell it as if it were F2P but it's not it is a subscription game.
Combat in this game is about counter's and match ups. Every ship and pretty much every module and even every specific load out has situation where it can dominate and also it's exact counter. Winning at PvP in this game has a lot to do with know when to fight and when to run. Most PvP encounters are won or lost before the first shot is fired. There is an awful lot of meta gaming here. Meaning that you typically have to convince your opponent that he has a chance to win while at the same time making sure that he doesn't. Keeping in mind that he is trying to do the same.
Balance in this game is not about making sure that each ship has an equal chance to win against every other ship. It's about making sure that each ship has enough situations where it is good and enough where it is not.
You also have to keep in mind that there is no queueable PvP with a set number of players against the exact same number of players of the same level with similar gearscores or ratings. You can play the Damsel in distress in this game just to have a bunch of friends jump in and join the fight as soon as you get the other guys to commit to combat. You can pick a solo fight against someone in a ship that you think would be a fairly even match for you but there is nothing stopping him from providing a warp to point for a fleet of 20 of his closest friends. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1809
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:20:31 -
[58] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Hmm, not easy to know what you want.
One side wants WoT-like epic battles, another side wants to explore. Even roaming around in a small group doin helpful things would be nice.
Hell, crusin that fearsome lookin Rokh would be nice.
All this before nursery-home though. You can do all of this. Nothing stopping you from doing any of it. One thing to note about this game. Since it is a sandbox there is no structure to make specific things happen. You can do anything that you want in this game but you have to make it happen. After the tutorials the game is not going to hold your hand and walk you through anything.
If you want to get involved in huge null sec battles then you need to find a null sec corp that does that. Exploring in a small group and day tripping into wormholes can also be easily done in that same null sec corp.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:@ergherhdfgh
Watched til 17 mins. Maan, I felt like a ******. No clue what Im doin. Ya I figured as much which is why I summed it up for you. |
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
299
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:27:26 -
[59] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Sorry but I cant let this go.
Took a look at the ingame shiptree.
If you want to be good at flying a Leviathan you need skills worth 1333 days!
4 years to fly a ship? Admit it fanboys, this cant be right. Wouldnt this game be more awesome with more variety in ships?
Edit: thats not even worst case.
Yea, it is insane for those living outside a game, thats likely a pretty normal response. I dont plan a week ahead on what I'm going to do on the weekend, never mind planning for a video game. Eve is an old game and it has some old mmo bad habits in it's mechanics. you are getting some fanboy sunshine blown up your rear a bit here. Having said that, also getting lot's of straight information and great advice. Realistically you have to think about what you want to do, I like to explore and sometimes do a L4 here and there, so my focus has been on flying a Machariel for L4's and cruisers for exploration. You figure what it is you like and aim in that direction, if you want to speed up training I would suggest get a Mach and do L4's or join a corp in more lucrative space to make isk. That brings me to why you could use that isk, if training times freak you out. 2 words, skill injectors, it makes the insane possible. that 30 day training no longer looks so bad when you can take a couple 8 day training chunks out of it during the training duration by buying injectors. But whatever you do to make that isk, do what you enjoy so it doesn't become a repetitive grind.
As far as the game needing more ships, it really has enough with many different roles, there seems to be a big gap in progression where going up to a BS and pirate class is steady but going to T2 and those interesting ships is an eternity(for an average human). But again, skill injectors have you covered there, it was a pretty brilliant addition by the devs to open up the game this way. so dont fret about duration for now just get skills to 4 with a few 5's and you should be pretty functional in around a month. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1809
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:32:26 -
[60] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: On a personal note though... you will find a great many people in EVE (including myself) to be a little disgruntled by the skill injector system. It is a "the principle of the matter" for us.
For me it was that before skill injectors I would occasionally see the random new player that purchased a high skill point character thinking that he could buy glory in this game and then come here to the forums and cry about how unfair the game was.
It was a long hard struggle to show the guy that the very fact that you could not pay to win in this game was the definition of fair. It blew my mind that people could try to pay to win and then fail and somehow see that is proof that the game was "not fair".
Anyway I knew that the skill injectors would only further the problem with new players thinking that they could pay to win. It seems to me that it has.
It just seems funny to me that you can tell a new player that this game is about what you know not your skill points nor what they are flying. They won't believe you, they can go out and trying to pay to win by buying skill points and blinging out a ship and then when they realize for themselves that this is true they then say that the game is not fair because vets have all of the advantage even with cheaper ships and lower skill points.
You have to learn this game to be good at it. Sitting around waiting for skill points to train or complaining about the skill points that you don't have won't teach you this game. Going out and playing it will. Once you learn the game and get good at it you will be able to win even on cheaper ships and even with lower skill points.
So just go out and get your experience. |
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
622
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 21:39:53 -
[61] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:My point of this is said Memphis Baas. 34 years to get all level5.
34 years!!! Thats beyond comprehension. Nothing lasts that long. Couldnt like 5 years be a cap?
you don't need all the skills trained to level 5...
i don't even have a single planet management, resource processing, structure management, corporation management, and production skills injected and i don't think i will ever on this character.
i also don't plan on injecting all of the science, trade, neural enhancement, fleet support, rigging, social, scanning, and most of the capital/super capital in this character.
join a corp. based on your preferred activities. get their fits/doctrine and focus on that first.
Just Add Water
|
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
1468
|
Posted - 2016.12.31 23:17:51 -
[62] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Why so many skills? Its about crumbs.
Why so big leap between level 4 and 5?
The entire game is based around the concept of diminishing returns. Skills, ships, modules, implants, everything. It keeps the artificial barriers to newbies low so they can catch up to vets pretty quickly.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
|
Memphis Baas
2621
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 05:21:24 -
[63] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Okay forget the level cap thing and instead have a specific amount of skillpoints that you can have? There is no limit to how many skillpoints you can have. And as I said in an earlier post, no skill or specialty will prevent you from using another skill or specialty.
No, he's not asking, he's suggesting that CCP change the game to put in a limit of some sort. He's trying to deal with the fact that he's a newbie and (supposedly) we're all veterans, and he'll never catch up. You can see the progression of questions from "how to do x" to the realization that there's no way to jump to whatever he sees as the "end game" without either a lot of time or a lot of RL money.
So after 4 pages of advice, he's learning stuff, but it's mostly that he can't bypass the time requirement for skills. He hasn't moved on from the topic; for a while it looked like he was going to move to fittings, but no, he's staying on the skillpoints and time required. So my prediction is that once it sinks in that he can't bypass it (despite the advice on how to focus his training), he will be quitting.
It's not a fast game, it's not a 3-month MMO, he won't stay.
Some people need to reach an end, and mostly as proof that everyone else is blocked by the same end. This game doesn't have that, and he doesn't get that people delete their characters and extract their skillpoints and otherwise lose interest, so we all must be maxed-out veterans.
Reality is different, of course.
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 07:45:58 -
[64] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:Okay forget the level cap thing and instead have a specific amount of skillpoints that you can have? There is no limit to how many skillpoints you can have. And as I said in an earlier post, no skill or specialty will prevent you from using another skill or specialty. No, he's not asking, he's suggesting that CCP change the game to put in a limit of some sort. He's trying to deal with the fact that he's a newbie and (supposedly) we're all veterans, and he'll never catch up. You can see the progression of questions from "how to do x" to the realization that there's no way to jump to whatever he sees as the "end game" without either a lot of time or a lot of RL money. So after 4 pages of advice, he's learning stuff, but it's mostly that he can't bypass the time requirement for skills. He hasn't moved on from the topic; for a while it looked like he was going to move to fittings, but no, he's staying on the skillpoints and time required. So my prediction is that once it sinks in that he can't bypass it (despite the advice on how to focus his training), he will be quitting. It's not a fast game, it's not a 3-month MMO, he won't stay. Some people need to reach an end, and mostly as proof that everyone else is blocked by the same end. This game doesn't have that, and he doesn't get that people delete their characters and extract their skillpoints and otherwise lose interest, so we all must be maxed-out veterans. Reality is different, of course.
Ouch, thats kinda hard and judgemental.
Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.
It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.
Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated and depending on fittings and skills.
You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot. You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should not be brushed off but atleast considered.
Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.
I miss my IS-7
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11292
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 08:02:43 -
[65] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ouch, thats kinda hard and judgemental. Do not take it too personally.
We see a lot of people who come and go on these forums... spouting some nonsense here and ranting about how "this game would be so much better if (insert core mechanic here) were completely replaced."
So we have become a little cynical.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed. That is what makes EVE nice.
You are not mechanically forced to "grind" in order to do anything in the game.
If you can find a way to make easy money (either by extorting others, snatching riches from another, or being a leader) then the game will let you do just that. You do not have to do X quest to get Y gear.
You do not even need Y gear to perform well in X quest. Simply find a way around it.
Quote:Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated and depending on fittings and skills. That actually makes the game more fair than most.
While skills make you more effective, it is your creativity and tactical prowess that will decide how well that effectiveness will be applied... or how well you can mitigate the tactical prowess of others.
Quote:You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot. Actually... you do.
But it is slower and not a "twitch" thing that other games have.
And there is "aiming." But it is a little tricker and more convoluted.
Quote:trying to suggest different approaches should not be brushed off but atleast considered. You will find that well thought out ideas are recieved well and considered... especially when presented in a cogent way.
However, ideas that... - directly fly in the face of what makes EVE "great" (or why many of us joined the game in the first place)... - are based on "I want" or "I do not like"...
... tend to see some form of backlash.
How did you Veterans start?
|
Memphis Baas
2624
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 11:09:51 -
[66] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated and depending on fittings and skills.
You're a ship captain, not a dogfighter pilot. You give orders, like Capt. Kirk of the Enterprise, and they get carried out. When the Enterprise fires its lasers, they hit, its torpedoes, they are already locked on target. Kirk doesn't even push a button, he just waves his hand. Enterprise doesn't dogfight; it either absorbs damage to its shields, or not.
This is a strategy game. Ships are designed to be rock / paper / scissors. If you undock the paper, and the scissors is waiting outside, the fight is mostly predetermined, and you'll lose; the trick of this game is to realize that the scissors is waiting, and to undock the rock instead.
In an RTS (strategy) game, you may be able to upgrade the units a bit, but the point is to use the correct units to achieve your goal, not to grab a hold of one unit and hero it against the entire opponent's army. In an RTS game, you learn what the units can do, and how to control the user interface to show you what's going on properly, and then you're off to fight matches against other players. You don't get hung up on why units function that way or why it takes so long to unlock the bigger units.
You don't argue that the rules of chess should be changed. You simply play the game, or not. I mean, try it on a chess forum if you want, see how they react.
It was a bit rude to talk to Shah about you in this thread where you can see it, and I apologize for that, but I was not off-topic and thus was within the rules of the forum.
I hope you end up liking the game as it is, and continue playing it.
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 11:48:28 -
[67] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:[quote=Trasch Taranogas]
This is a strategy game. Ships are designed to be rock / paper / scissors. If you undock the paper, and the scissors is waiting outside, the fight is mostly predetermined, and you'll lose; the trick of this game is to realize that the scissors is waiting, and to undock the rock instead. Information, scouting, espionage. .
This is the eyeopener. This is the thing I have a hard time with.
No worries, I dont get offended. I have self managed forums in the modmaking community and it takes a lot of self discipline to stay smiling and understanding when people goes after the forum-keeper in the most outrageous way possible.
I know the drills, oldies and noobs has to get along in the interest of CCP, otherwise we are just wasting their time and energy. In the end we all lose.
The purpose of these cesspools called forums are that skilled community managers can pick out the good bits and "feel" the vibe of the players.
I dont know the History of Eve Online, I dont know if they have financial problems. In that case we noobs are the main focus. That does NOT give us the right to missbehave.
So you all noncontributing, "stuck in the past" oldies better keep smiling.
(Yeah I know, that last sentence was a little payback)
Lets keep up the good vibe we have here.
I miss my IS-7
|
Memphis Baas
2624
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 12:04:04 -
[68] - Quote
This is the dogfight game. You can see the size of the ships there, too. |
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 12:20:29 -
[69] - Quote
Looking good, too bad VR hasnt taken off yet.
No wonder Eve Online has lost a bit of motherly love when this project has been the focus.
I miss my IS-7
|
mkint
1337
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 12:29:06 -
[70] - Quote
Yeah, after seeing some of OP's other posts and locked threads, pretty sure he's just trolling.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
|
|
Torin Corax
Mosh Pit
177
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 15:26:08 -
[71] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Ouch, thats kinda hard and judgemental.
Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.
It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.
Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated and depending on fittings and skills.
You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot. You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should not be brushed off but atleast considered.
Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.
Given you are a WoT fan, I just thought I'd throw a few things out for consideraton..
Ever drive a pre- nerf KV1-S? The tank that was cried about on the forums for being OP as hell by people who couldn't be bothered to learn it's weaknesses? Ever see what happens to those same "cry-babies" that jump into their shiny 1-S and think that they are now Gods-gift to WoT PvP...Then they go and sit in front of a TOG II (arguably the biggest joke tank in the game) thinking it's a nice fat kill? (Hint: TOG was my favorite tank, and I just loved the accusations of hacking/ cheating that came after vaporising clueless 1-S drivers)
If the answer is yes to the above then the concept transfers over to Eve quite nicely. SP is not all that important ( beyond being required for unlocking purposes), knowledge of the game trumps sp almost every single time.
Hell, are you trying to tell me you never, not once, got your IS circle strafed by a competent light driver or two who kept you perma-tracked while chipping away at your rear? If not then you got lucky at never meeting decent light drivers....or you just learned as much as you could about the game and used your knowledge effectively to beat your opponent.
Not that different after all really, except that Eve has way more to learn than WoT. Which in my opinion makes it by far the better game. |
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
1172
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 18:33:56 -
[72] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Sorry but I cant let this go.
Took a look at the ingame shiptree.
If you want to be good at flying a Leviathan you need skills worth 1333 days!
4 years to fly a ship? Admit it fanboys, this cant be right.
By the time you've trained those skills, ideally, you'll be in a position to actually make use of them.
There are plenty of examples out there of people who have played credit-card warrior to *rush* into a Titan, only to discover that without a support fleet and without a network of friends, they're nothing more than a loot pinata waiting to go boom, much to the amusement of all and sundry.
Here is but one example.
EVE is a game where co-operation and teamwork are far more important than raw SP or ISK. It's a cliche, but it's also a truth: The best ship in EVE is FRIENDSHIP.
Someone with no friends and a Titan will very quickly become someone with no friends and no Titan.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 20:40:48 -
[73] - Quote
Torin Corax wrote:Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Ouch, thats kinda hard and judgemental.
Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.
It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.
Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated and depending on fittings and skills.
You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot. You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should not be brushed off but atleast considered.
Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.
Given you are a WoT fan, I just thought I'd throw a few things out for consideraton.. Ever drive a pre- nerf KV1-S? The tank that was cried about on the forums for being OP as hell by people who couldn't be bothered to learn it's weaknesses? Ever see what happens to those same "cry-babies" that jump into their shiny 1-S and think that they are now Gods-gift to WoT PvP...Then they go and sit in front of a TOG II (arguably the biggest joke tank in the game) thinking it's a nice fat kill? (Hint: TOG was my favorite tank, and I just loved the accusations of hacking/ cheating that came after vaporising clueless 1-S drivers) If the answer is yes to the above then the concept transfers over to Eve quite nicely. SP is not all that important ( beyond being required for unlocking purposes), knowledge of the game trumps sp almost every single time. Hell, are you trying to tell me you never, not once, got your IS circle strafed by a competent light driver or two who kept you perma-tracked while chipping away at your rear? If not then you got lucky at never meeting decent light drivers.... or you just learned as much as you could about the game and used your knowledge effectively to beat your opponent.Not that different after all really, except that Eve has way more to learn than WoT. Which in my opinion makes it by far the better game.
Ahh, interesting. Somebody who might have actually driven in WoT.
I could write pages about this. Well to just comment, KV-1S was kinda OP. Mine and many russkies favorite tank. Yep, I kinda mastered that game with the russian line, did ok in lights, hated meds and absolutely loved TDs. Say hello to my little BL-10.
Well, back to point. I knew exactly what to do, where to go and how to react to my own team and the enemy team depending on map and the tank I drove. Thats why EVE is so frustrating at the moment, Im lost and reaching out in this forum. Maybe a bit of an attentionwhore.
Best part, this evening it all fell into place!
Burning Down The Hive: lost my suped up Cormorant. Got mad and picked up my Ibis, fitted it with whatever long range gun (150mm Rail Gun) loaded Iron Charge S, Afterburner and some long range thingy, maybe F-90 something. Went back and kited down 4 of those Avi. Ran out of ammo (160) then I got webified (let them too close)... died.
Im proud. Would say it was a turning point
I miss my IS-7
|
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 21:35:29 -
[74] - Quote
Whooooo.
Thank you all for putting up with me. Burning down the hive is now completed.
3rd attempt. You guys are absolutely right. Im totally convinced that training and fitting is the key to this game.
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster did all the difference. Thats why Ibis stood up against them too, with only 1 Railgun. LOL.
Could have fitted Magnetic Field Stabilizer too on Cormorant.
I miss my IS-7
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11297
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 22:02:29 -
[75] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Whooooo.
Thank you all for putting up with me. Burning down the hive is now completed.
3rd attempt. You guys are absolutely right. Im totally convinced that training and fitting is the key to this game.
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster did all the difference. Thats why Ibis stood up against them too, with only 1 Railgun. LOL.
Could have fitted Magnetic Field Stabilizer too on Cormorant. Try using something like this when you get enough money...
[Cormorant, Newbie PvE] Damage Control I Magnetic Field Stabilizer I
1MN Afterburner I Small Shield Booster I Small Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 200
125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S 125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S 125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S 125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S 125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S 125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S 125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S [empty high slot]
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Notes:
- I made this fit with "skills set to 0" and with Tech 1 mods only. If you wish to "upgrade" the modules, do so.
- If you have trouble fitting anything, try training up the skills "Engineering" and "CPU Upgrades." You will find them in the Engineering skill section in your character sheet.
- The Damage Control is a passive modules that increases your ship's resistance to incoming damage.
- The Magnetic Field Stabilizer boosts your firing rate and volley damage
- The Afterburner will give your ship a small boost in speed. It should be sufficient for being able to maintain range over most NPC ships. However, you should still prioritize the destruction of fast ships just to be sure.
- The Small Shield Booster is pretty self explanatory.
- The Small Capacitor Booster is a module that you load with Cap Booster charges (see: consumable "batteries"). Use this when you are running low on capacitor power. It is recommended that you try NOT to use this module except when you have no other choice. Get into the habit of micro-managing your modules to conserve capacitor power. For this fit, the biggest drain on your capacitor is going to be your Shield Booster.
- While not the biggest gun you can buy for this ship, the 125mm Railgun offers a good balance between hitting power, tracking, and fitting cost. You can downgrade to the 75mm Railgun... which gives you better damage application at shorter ranges and is VERY easy to fit to a ship. But it will come at the cost of range and punching power. You can also upgrade to the 150mm Railgun which offers lots of range and damage... but it is VERY hard to fit on a ship due to its high CPU and Powergrid needs.
- Ammo is another thing to consider. Generally speaking, short range ammo hits hardest while long range ammo deals minimal damage. In your case, Lead ammo offers the "middle ground" in damage and range... and has the added benefit of cutting the capacitor consumption of your guns in half.
- The Collision Rig is optional. It will boost the damage you deal per volley by 10% and is fairly cheap.
How did you Veterans start?
|
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
300
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 22:43:52 -
[76] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Whooooo.
Thank you all for putting up with me. Burning down the hive is now completed.
3rd attempt. You guys are absolutely right. Im totally convinced that training and fitting is the key to this game.
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster did all the difference. Thats why Ibis stood up against them too, with only 1 Railgun. LOL.
Could have fitted Magnetic Field Stabilizer too on Cormorant.
Maybe you've still got the final missions to finish. A couple are also hard for new players.
I just finished the SOE arc (again), this time in a Dramiel, which would probably only need about 5M SP in appropriate skills.
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Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2017.01.01 23:09:33 -
[77] - Quote
@ShahFluffers
Thanks for that, yep its important to get that capacitor working for you.
Shipfittings are definitely priority number 1 from now on.
@Avaelica Kuershin
Dragan is going down.
I miss my IS-7
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Memphis Baas
2634
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Posted - 2017.01.02 03:02:01 -
[78] - Quote
Also, destroyers cannot sig-tank (rely on small size as a defense), because they have frigate armor/shields but BIG size and low agility.
If you're in a mission where they shoot missiles at you, especially cruiser-sized Heavy Missiles, a frigate will take half damage and a destroyer will take full damage. Your destroyer would do more damage, but if you can't survive to apply it, it's better to take a frigate and get the mission done.
Some missions are DPS checks (perfect for destroyer), others are survivability checks (bring a frigate to survive). You've unlocked both ships, bring the correct one for the mission.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1814
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Posted - 2017.01.02 03:23:25 -
[79] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote: Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.
It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.
What you know and, more importantly, who you know are the key factors. The 10% rat of fire increase on your lazors won't do you any good when your opponent neuts you to zero cap, but your three buddies two systems over will help a bunch.
Trasch Taranogas wrote: Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated and depending on fittings and skills.
Fitting is an art not a skill. Piloting might be a skill but some people make it look like art also.
We already went over how skill points don't mean nearly as much as most new players think they do. I already told you about how Suitonia on an alt with a couple hundred thousand skill points can beat 3 pilots with at least tens of milllions of skill points in much more expensively fit T2 frigates, so I'm thinking that you aren't talking about skill points.
When you say fitting... There is no best in slot for anything in this game. There is no "best fit" for any ship. There is only good fits for specific situations. In some cases fitting a ship poorly can get you a win because your opponent was assuming that you had a more standard fit.
You choose your fit and you choose when to engage or run. So I'm not really clear on where you are saying this game seems unfair when winning comes down to things completely within your control.
However I will agree with you that this game is indeed not fair. There really is no way to get a truly fair fight in this game. I would go so far as to say that fairness has nothing to do with this game. This game is all about turning the odds in your favor. Making it unfair for your opponent. The only problem is that at the same time you need to make your opponent think that he has the advantage or there won't be a fight.
So it's fair in the sense that everyone is trying to make it unfair for everyone else.
Trasch Taranogas wrote: You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot. You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should not be brushed off but atleast considered.
There are a lot of things that I suggested early on for which I was told to let go of and that they were not good ideas for this game. After having played for a while I found out what those other guys were talking about and have since "corrected" other new players for suggestions that I myself made early on.
More importantly I think that trying to give advice on how this game could be made better when you don't even really know how to play it yet seems unproductive. I mean you aren't really wasting much of our time but unproductive for yourself. You can't really learn the subtle ins and outs of this game when your are focusing on what is wrong with it.
Play the game for what it is and learn it as is and then make suggestions once you know more about it. When we tell you that your ideas of how to "improve Eve" are not valid we are not telling you that you are wrong and need to STFU. We are hinting that there is an aspect of what you are suggesting that you don't yet understand and if you just hang in there, we feel, that you will figure it out and understand why it is not that way.
WIth regards to piloting and aiming. You don't have to pilot or aim in the first person sense but you certainly do have to pilot and aim in this game. If you just tell your ship to orbit at optimal and then hit fire you will have trouble winning any PvP engagements. Learn about manual piloting and learn about controlling range. You need to have at least a concept of how to do both of those before you can expect to even survive long in any encounters.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.
I can only speak for myself on this. I never saw alpha clones as blasphemy or even a bad idea. However I was and still am very unpleased with CCP's decision to market it as F2P when in actuality it is just an unlimited trial, much like WoW being free to level 20. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1814
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Posted - 2017.01.02 03:34:56 -
[80] - Quote
Trasch Taranogas wrote:Looking good, too bad VR hasnt taken off yet. No wonder Eve Online has lost a bit of motherly love when this project has been the focus. Actually the CCP devs made the first version of that game pretty much on their own time. CCP has a thing where on Fridays devs can work on what ever they want. It's a goof off day for them. So some of them made the first working version of this game and they showed it at a fan fest a few years back just to show what they could do goofing off.
It was not until fans started asking when it was coming out that CCP even considered developing the game.
As far as VR not taking off yet... CCP has a history of trend setting. They take chances and do some bleeding edge stuff. IMHO they are a huge part of what is pushing the gaming industry. I think that they have way more influence than their market share alone warrants. |
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