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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.14 00:17:00 -
[1]
I've just bought myself a new falcon, because I do rather like them as ships.
I look at it.
Hard.
And thing 'wtf'?
This ship, cannot jam well. OK, fair enough, jammers got nerfed. But with 3 spare highslots, and 3 lows (all used to signal distortion amplifiers), this ship... well, can cloak, and it can jam, just.
This ship needs some love. I mean, I understand that when ECM was awesome, the nerf bat had to swing, but now the falcon... well is pretty much just inferior to a buzzard.
Seriously, the falcon is just a poor ship now. It cannot do _anything_ well, apart from covert cloak, and for that a 'standard' covops is a much much better choice.
So, rather than this just being a whine. (And to be fair, it is. I loved my falcon, and it was 'ok' before. Now it's a 2 legged donkey of a ship).
Falcon needs more firepower. A drone bay, or perhaps additional launcher/turret slots. Switching the 4 highslots so it's a 3/1 (launcher/turret) layout would be lovely.
As would a drone bay. 25m3, would make it the biggest caldari drone cruiser, but it would also make it actually do some damage.
Of course, what I really think is that the 'ECM ships' ECM bonus needs to be increased. Rather than the current 10/20%, IMO it really needs 20/40%. In my opinion, Falcons, Scorpions and Rooks were 'ok' before the ECM strengths were halved. Now they're down 25% on their effectiveness, and it's really starting to show in their incipent pricecrash.
Even 15/30% would be a step in the right direction.
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.14 00:32:00 -
[2]
Actually mate, falcons are in NO WAY in need of a boost.
I fly them as my primary ship, and i can tell you now, that theyre fine as they are.
Simply put, i see it as the following, in terms of solo playing to gang warfare.
Amarr - Solo, high damage, no multi-tasking.
Gallente - Solo/Small gang, mediocre damage, slight multitasking
Minnie - Much the same as the gallente, but more gang orientated.
Falcon - Pure gang, high multitasking.
In other words, i can jam 7 targets at once with my skills and setup, and a bit of luck. Thats pure 100% neutralisation, for 20 seconds minimum, from a range of 160km, with the ability to jam any target targetting me, allowing me to recloak at will, and fly off.
The need for damage is stupid. Its a long range ecm boat. So what use would any dps be? Flown a rook? You'll know what im talking about - close range ECM = dead ecm.
Now regarding drones - Yeah they'd be nice, but would make it that bit overpowered.
As for jamming well - Well.....you saw what i said. I fly it everyday in multiple ops, and its never let me down. Ive lost a total of one out of 6 months combat, and that was due to the shakes, not skill on the others part.
ECM suffered a heavy blow, and too much so imo, but the falcon is still the best ecm ship in any fleet. Rook doesnt even compare to its usefulness.
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Kashre
Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.04.14 00:43:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Kashre on 14/04/2007 00:40:59 Edited by: Kashre on 14/04/2007 00:40:39 Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have the ECM spec skill and recon at 4 each, that's an 100% bonus to jam strength right there right? That's 7.2 for a t2 racial, which is a 34% chance to jam a megathron per cycle with no distortion amps. I dunno if distortion amps have a stacking penalty, but if they dont then 3 more of those is another 60%, which basically gives you a 55% jam chance per cycle.
Seems pretty fair to me to be able to shut down a tier 2 BS with just 2 mid slots, and get a 30% jam chance with multispecs. +++
"Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
Grimpak
Gallente Twisted Attitude
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Posted - 2007.04.14 01:39:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Grimpak on 14/04/2007 01:35:19 from all the recon ships ingame, the falcon, and the much superior rook, in terms of warfare, are the only ones that can be said of "force multipliers", because having simply 1 in your gang will tip the balance in your favour even in fights against superior gangs, either in numbers and/or firepower.
that's how powerfull the falcon and the rook are. -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Eternal Light
Caldari Global Solutions
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Posted - 2007.04.14 03:12:00 -
[5]
Falcon is a great ship, my gang love me, Why? cause nobody lose ship (or just a little) cause i jam ennemy then no damage for them or just a little. When i see people say : nerf jam = so bad for caldari, i say : No, falcon and rook re great ship to have in a gang, for me, falcon is just the better recon ship for gang, i can scout, i can probe, i can jam. u just need to stay distance of the fight, and active ur racial jam, u jam, u miss but with good skill u jam often ;)
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Kristoffer
Amarr Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.14 07:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 14/04/2007 01:35:19 from all the recon ships ingame, the falcon, and the much superior rook, in terms of warfare, are the only ones that can be said of "force multipliers", because having simply 1 in your gang will tip the balance in your favour even in fights against superior gangs, either in numbers and/or firepower.
that's how powerfull the falcon and the rook are.
This man knows what hes talking about.
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Ryysa
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 08:37:00 -
[7]
Have to do a slight correction on the damage.
Huginn does really nice damage for a recon, so does the Lachesis.
But generally, 100% agree with what Waxau and Grimpak said, don't think there is a way to put it better either.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill
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Posted - 2007.04.14 09:30:00 -
[8]
Awesome ship, it also keeps your POD warm as an extra layer of tinfoil
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.14 10:45:00 -
[9]
Yeah - personally only fly caldari recons, but heck...
someone point out to me a ship which can scout, cloak, jam, probe, cyno, and fully neutralise a ship instantly, for 20 seconds - And be good at them all.
Whilst the ecm nerf hit them hard, i still wet my undies when i hear of another falcon in a gang.
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Ryysa
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 10:47:00 -
[10]
Arazu can...
However, I don't want to turn this into a Dampening vs ECM argument - they work differently and both have advantages and disadvantages.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.04.14 10:49:00 -
[11]
Shockingly only Amarr, Gallente & Minmatar pilots think they're good...
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.14 10:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ryysa Arazu can...
However, I don't want to turn this into a Dampening vs ECM argument - they work differently and both have advantages and disadvantages.
Lol - i stand corrected then :P
However, due to the lack of damage, no one bothers fitting weapons etc in highs, so free to fit probes, cloak, and cyno easily.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.14 11:25:00 -
[13]
I do think the Falcon needs something. If we look at all the force recons and the ships they are based on they all get some stuff like resists, +1 mid, +1 low, cover ops cloak bonus and last but not least one unuiqe cool bonus.
Arazu get scramble range, rapier get web range, pilgrim get nos amount but what cool unique bonus do the falcon get? ECM cap usage...
And the strength bonus the blackbird has have been moved from the cruiser skill to the covert op skill which means that for the majority of all falcon pilots they will actually have higher ecm strength when they are in their blackbirds. Unless they have Recon Ships level 5 at which they get the same.
My suggestion is to change the strength bonus to 15%. Not as much as the rook but better than the blackbird. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Ryysa
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 11:47:00 -
[14]
Well you know...
Minmatar get TARGET PAINTING BONUS....
Sorry, I had to say it...
N.F.F. Recruitment - Killboard Mirroring tool |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 11:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hoshi And the strength bonus the blackbird has have been moved from the cruiser skill to the covert op skill which means that for the majority of all falcon pilots they will actually have higher ecm strength when they are in their blackbirds. Unless they have Recon Ships level 5 at which they get the same.
No because of 2 reasons. - the falcon has an additional low, allowing for a 3rd ecm mod. Which will give them a higher strength than a BB with recon 4. - it has an additional med as well, allowing for one additional ECM.
A 15% instead 10% bonus does not sound that bad, although if you figure in the additional low it will have 95% of the rooks ECM strength per jammer with it. Might be balanced, might be not. I have no idea.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.14 12:25:00 -
[16]
I don't think you can really use the slot argument here, all force recons get +1 mid, +1 low. This means that for example the arazu get better at dampning due to its extra mid while still having the scramble range bonus and an extra low to tank.
So we are still back to the fact that the only unique bonus the falcon get is an ecm cap usage bonus. If you can't give it higher ecm strength then change the cap bonus to something else more useful. The point of the cap bonus is to allow it to use multispecs but with the ecm strength it currently have multispecs are not really an option anyway.
As for the target painter bonus I agree it needs looking at but what I am trying to show here is how they compare to their t1 versions.
The Bellicose is much worse than the Blackbird so we then have two options. 1. Pre-nerf the t2 ships which is based on the blackbird or 2. Boost the Bellicose.
I know which one I would choose. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Miriyana
Gallente Jita International Traders and Antagonists
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Posted - 2007.04.14 13:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ryysa Have to do a slight correction on the damage.
Huginn does really nice damage for a recon, so does the Lachesis.
But generally, 100% agree with what Waxau and Grimpak said, don't think there is a way to put it better either.
Indeed, huginn and lach actually do the highest damage of any recon, it just looks like the curse does because no one can tank it due to not having any cap :P
- - - - - - Change just leads to more problems |
VaderDSL
Caldari Incoherent Inc
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Posted - 2007.04.14 14:13:00 -
[18]
Falcon+Rook + Eos & Info Links + Mindlink (my next step) for the absolute win
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.14 14:44:00 -
[19]
The cloak is the main advantage of the falcon.
All ECM is usually marked primary in most fleet ops. Therefore you die in any of them rather fast. Except the falcon.
You can uncloak after primary has been called, you can cloak and run if needs be, you can jam whenever you need to, and then just flee. Its in a class of its own.
Im up for any boost it can get, but it doesnt need it. It can jam other targets easily, and its cloak just makes it soooo hard to counter, theres no point it getting a boost.
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.14 14:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hoshi
1. Pre-nerf the t2 ships which is based on the blackbird or 2. Boost the Bellicose.
I know which one I would choose.
Well lets boost all ships then shall we? Cos you'd choose that.
Get real. Just because you want something boosted, doesn't make it healthy for the game.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 14:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hoshi I don't think you can really use the slot argument here, all force recons get +1 mid, +1 low. This means that for example the arazu get better at dampning due to its extra mid while still having the scramble range bonus and an extra low to tank.
I can when you compare it vs it's t1 version. Of cource all other force recons get this as well, but this does not change anything that the falcon is a stronger jammer than the BB. A ship isn't only it's ship bonus.
Quote: So we are still back to the fact that the only unique bonus the falcon get is an ecm cap usage bonus. If you can't give it higher ecm strength then change the cap bonus to something else more useful. The point of the cap bonus is to allow it to use multispecs but with the ecm strength it currently have multispecs are not really an option anyway.
I would agree with you there, though. What is the question however. An higher ECM strength as the OP suggests is IMO a rather bad idea. They already have a range bonus. Drone/dps boni are a bit silly considering you typcially operate at ranges where you cannot use them anyways. So, what? A 5% bonus on multispec jammer strength (10% would be too much since this would give them the same performance as racials) so they can be use more effeciently on it, but not with any hope to sustain them?
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 14:52:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Aramendel on 14/04/2007 14:50:28
Originally by: Miriyana Indeed, huginn and lach actually do the highest damage of any recon, it just looks like the curse does because no one can tank it due to not having any cap :P
My (theoretical max) 560 dps curse ratting setup disagrees
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Ryysa
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 14:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Waxau Get real. Just because you want something boosted, doesn't make it healthy for the game.
In fact, I don't remember ever fitting a target painter on my huginn.
Also, if you take a number of caldari pvp pilots and a number of matari pvp pilots and then ask them the following question:
For the Caldari pilots: "Have you ever flown a blackbird?" For the Matari pilots: "Have you ever flown a bellicose?"
What do you think would be the approximate ratio between yes and no for Caldari and the approximate ratio between yes and no for the Matari pilots?
Sorry, but please don't say that target painting bonus is good, the module itself is fairly useless already and well, what does it make a ship which gets a useless bonus to a useless module?
That's right, even more useless.
Please don't say that bellicose couldn't use a buff - it is nearly completely unused compared to the arbitrator, the celestis and the blackbird (or I will send dozens of matari fanbois into your room while you are sleeping ).
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 14:57:00 -
[24]
I think this was more aimed as answer to hoshi. I doubt that anyone in his right mind would disagree that the minni recial ewar is a bit ...useless.
Ok, thats is not exactly true. Target painters CAN be rather useful. Just usually not on a recon ship.
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Chronus26
Gallente Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.04.14 15:39:00 -
[25]
My T1 fit Blackbirds were fine after the ECM changes, I cant understand how your Falcon can have gotten *so* much worse?
Multispecs are a lost cause - just use racials, easy. 7 mid slots, thats room for a sensor booster, and 2x 3 out of 4 race jammers & then you can still fit a damage control and 2 plates, or a damage control, a 1600mm plate and an Distortion Amp. -----
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.14 15:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Waxau Get real. Just because you want something boosted, doesn't make it healthy for the game.
In fact, I don't remember ever fitting a target painter on my huginn.
Also, if you take a number of caldari pvp pilots and a number of matari pvp pilots and then ask them the following question:
For the Caldari pilots: "Have you ever flown a blackbird?" For the Matari pilots: "Have you ever flown a bellicose?"
What do you think would be the approximate ratio between yes and no for Caldari and the approximate ratio between yes and no for the Matari pilots?
Sorry, but please don't say that target painting bonus is good, the module itself is fairly useless already and well, what does it make a ship which gets a useless bonus to a useless module?
That's right, even more useless.
Please don't say that bellicose couldn't use a buff - it is nearly completely unused compared to the arbitrator, the celestis and the blackbird (or I will send dozens of matari fanbois into your room while you are sleeping ).
I was kinda referring to Hoshi wanting something boosted, rather than nerfed :P
Whilst i will agree the minnie recon target painting bonuses arent that great.......you're a phoenix's best friend :)
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Sedai Hara
Caldari The Forsakened Companions
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Posted - 2007.04.14 17:30:00 -
[27]
Rook and falcon are exelent ships. Nothign wrong with them.
The rook can as said jam 7 enemies at once with a bit of luck, that means 7 enemies out of the fight for 20 secs atleast.
Falcon can do pretty much the same, just cant jam as good, and not the same dmg either.
Still, i can think of COUNTLESS time i saved my friends ships from a fast death in my rook. I jammed 6 BSes and a tackling frig at once 1 time, and saved my gang from total destruction. Only downside is the tank, witch doesnt exist(got jumped 130km from the main gang by 2 cov ops cruisers, a arazu and a rapier. was hell fun die in that manner, they instapopped me :D)
A recon ships isnt supposed to do dmg, wanna do dmg? get a HAC or BC/BS. a recon is designed to do one thing extremely good, and its so for all recons. and combined, they make an exelent force of small, relatively cheap ships.
And wtf with this constant nagging of the ECM nerf? i have noticed jammers got better, with the rigs and the "damage jamming modules" you cna get CRAZY jamming strengh strengh. Or you can get very good cap usage on hte, enables you to jamm for a longer time. Dont get angry because you can jamm somebody with your dominix or your skills sucks. Spend some time on it and isk and it will works out fine.
Originally by: Tuxford Speed is fun and all but this is getting silly, yes we are addressing it, yes I have a blog coming about it.
2007-02-05 end of the nano-era |
Ryysa
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.14 18:17:00 -
[28]
Actually you are wrong about recons not being supposed to do any damage.
The cloaking recons aren't, indeed. But the ones without cloak put out quite a nifty amount of dps, whether it's the lachesis, the curse or the rook.
From the cloaked recons the only exception would be the pilgrim.
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.04.15 00:10:00 -
[29]
And just to reitterate - Many times ive heard shouts of 'HEEELP! IM BEING ATTACKED!!! (belt something something). At which point i warp there, jam the targets, and Mr. Friendly warps off scott free. No one can say that needs a boost ^^
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.15 10:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Waxau And just to reitterate - Many times ive heard shouts of 'HEEELP! IM BEING ATTACKED!!! (belt something something). At which point i warp there, jam the targets, and Mr. Friendly warps off scott free. No one can say that needs a boost ^^
There are some things the falcon do very well, things that you could not do in a blackbird or rook. But the above is not one of them. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
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