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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46534
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 21:39:16 -
[1] - Quote
Iron Breaker wrote:So before I come back, has the Alpha clone thing just made it easier for griefers to pester casual players? It's a bit like an adult being griefed by a child. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46534
|
Posted - 2017.01.06 22:15:23 -
[2] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Iron Breaker wrote:So before I come back, has the Alpha clone thing just made it easier for griefers to pester casual players? It's a bit like an adult being griefed by a child. I would suggest that many Indy characters would not be able to fight a combat focused Alpha character, certainly that would be the case from what I saw with many AG players who used low SP alts. But there are a number of reasons why Alpha's don't really add to the issue in terms of ganking of casuals, restrictions on operating Alpha accounts with other accounts is the most evident one. -»\_(pâä)_/-». None of that is counter to what I said.
Adults deal with things, so alphas bugging them isn't a problem. If it is a problem, then they probably aren't really adults. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46535
|
Posted - 2017.01.07 09:31:29 -
[3] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Iron Breaker wrote:So before I come back, has the Alpha clone thing just made it easier for griefers to pester casual players? It's a bit like an adult being griefed by a child. I would suggest that many Indy characters would not be able to fight a combat focused Alpha character, certainly that would be the case from what I saw with many AG players who used low SP alts. But there are a number of reasons why Alpha's don't really add to the issue in terms of ganking of casuals, restrictions on operating Alpha accounts with other accounts is the most evident one. -»\_(pâä)_/-». None of that is counter to what I said. Actually it is, your assumption only works if everyone trains their characters to be good in combat too... Not at all.
We are just looking at it differently but each to their own. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46535
|
Posted - 2017.01.07 09:34:56 -
[4] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Iron Breaker wrote:So before I come back, has the Alpha clone thing just made it easier for griefers to pester casual players? It's a bit like an adult being griefed by a child. I would suggest that many Indy characters would not be able to fight a combat focused Alpha character, certainly that would be the case from what I saw with many AG players who used low SP alts. But there are a number of reasons why Alpha's don't really add to the issue in terms of ganking of casuals, restrictions on operating Alpha accounts with other accounts is the most evident one. -»\_(pâä)_/-». None of that is counter to what I said. Actually it is, your assumption only works if everyone trains their characters to be good in combat too... Nope
We are just looking at it differently. You're looking at it from character capabilities, I'm looking st it from player maturity. But each to their own. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46537
|
Posted - 2017.01.07 19:22:10 -
[5] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote: Not at all.
We are just looking at it differently.
You're looking at it from character capabilities, I'm looking at it from player maturity. People that are mature don't get upset by things that happen in a video game.
But each to their own. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
So you cannot discuss that point rationally and instead go to name calling. People who are mature may get upset by things that happen in a video game there is nothing immature about that, the smug arrogance of your posting is amusing. There's no name calling there. It's just an opinion; and no, people that are mature (emotionally) have no need to get upset over anything that happens in a video game.
I'm not looking for an argument. I just put my view in the thread and have been clarifying it after you addressed it. We are both entitled to our own opinion, even if they differ. It's possible to both be rational, having different points. Unfortunately that aspect seems to have been missed. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46538
|
Posted - 2017.01.07 21:47:31 -
[6] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:It is not a case of immaturity and saying it like that as a throw away line is really being insulting. People want to win and sometimes they get angry at losing, too angry at times, or they get upset if they see it as unfair, in many cases they are wrong, but in some areas they have a point. To call it simply immaturity is wrong, is it immature to get a high for blowing someone up and gathering his tears in a vidoe game if I use your example, no it is not. It works both ways, the thing is suggesting someone is immature because he gets upset is simplistic and judgemental and is an easy way to say I am superior when it means nothing apart from that person needs to take it less seriously and control his anger better. Ho hum.
This is why it gets pointless trying to discuss some things with some people. No matter what, it's just gets turned for their own purpose and interpretation.
I haven't said any of those things in your post, but this is pointless. I have my view and it isn't an insulting view towards anyone.
But whatevs. Good luck with your forum pvp. It doesn't interest me. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46538
|
Posted - 2017.01.07 21:58:30 -
[7] - Quote
Double post |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46549
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 17:11:16 -
[8] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Dracvlad wrote:It is not a case of immaturity and saying it like that as a throw away line is really being insulting. People want to win and sometimes they get angry at losing, too angry at times, or they get upset if they see it as unfair, in many cases they are wrong, but in some areas they have a point. To call it simply immaturity is wrong, is it immature to get a high for blowing someone up and gathering his tears in a vidoe game if I use your example, no it is not. It works both ways, the thing is suggesting someone is immature because he gets upset is simplistic and judgemental and is an easy way to say I am superior when it means nothing apart from that person needs to take it less seriously and control his anger better. Ho hum. This is why it gets pointless trying to discuss some things with some people. No matter what, it's just gets turned for their own purpose and interpretation. I haven't said any of those things in your post, not one. However, this is pointless. I have my view and it isn't an insulting view towards anyone. But whatevs. Good luck with your forum pvp. It doesn't interest me. That is because you use immaturity only when it suits you, is it immature to get a high from upsetting someone? Two immature people together? Where does it end and where does it start, that is why so many people despise ganker aligned players because most are roaring hypocrites. Well you define anyone as losing their temper over a game as immature, I think that is a simplistic and immature thing to say, after all I have seen tennis stars throw their rackets into the crowd with a bad line call, or smash them into the ground, they were taking out their frustration on losing, now I would get upset with the first example because that could have hurt someone but the second was acceptable, if he wants to break an expensive racket then it is his lookout. That explosive reaction to high stakes in a game is commonplace, is it really immature? That is why I never react to that initial rage and anger in Eve. You have your opinion fine, but mature people see it as bullshite in this case. Sorry Drac, but again I haven't written a single bit of what you've claimed there, not one bit. That doesn't represent my view on anything at all. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46551
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 17:46:58 -
[9] - Quote
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:People that are mature don't get upset by things that happen in a video game. Is deriving joy from a video game also a sign of immaturity? After all, it's just a video game, right? Athletes get upset over losses all the time. That doesn't make them immature. It makes them human. They're not robots. Now, obviously how you control your feelings is a different story all together. No, I don't believe deriving joy from a video game is a sign of immaturity. Neither is it a sign of maturity. It's not at all relevant to what I have written.
Sure athletes get upset over losing and I agree it doesn't necessarily make them immature. I haven't said anything about immaturity at all. I never would as I dont believe I have anywhere near enough knowledge to have that sort of opinion.
As a result, it isn't what I've said. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 18:32:38 -
[10] - Quote
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:As a result, it isn't what I've said. You said: Scipio Artelius wrote:People that are mature don't get upset by things that happen in a video game. By extension, someone that gets upset over a loss in a video game is not mature. I'm trying to figure out if you also apply this logic to someone that derives joy from a video game. Does your comment apply to ball games and wooden boards/pieces, or is only applicable to video games? i'm trying to understand the extent to which you believe this. If you say so I guess. That isn't what I'm saying at all.
I think I addressed the aspect of joy from a video game in my previous post. It's neither and not even relevant to this thread. |
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 18:46:58 -
[11] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Aside from that, the fact that I believe that being griefed by an alpha is like an adult being grieved by a child, is really just one opinion. Can you explain this? I can, yes.
**Edit with more detail coming. I'm out photographing at the moment so just typing on a phone. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 19:12:16 -
[12] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: You refused to substantiate your opinion of labeling new players as children, and those beset by them, as somehow reacting badly to the actions of a child.
I don't see the relevance, substance or rationale behind your opinion at all.
Like I wrote before, people will interpret what I write for exactly their own purpose, just like here.
I have never claimed any of those things. I've never said new players are children, nor that those that react to them are reacting to the actions of a child. I never would say that. It's an incorrect interpretation of what I wrote. In fact, I haven't (and wouldn't because I don't have sufficient knowledge to do so), claimed anything at all about the negative side of a response to anything.
But in the end, if everyone agreed on things the World would be a boring place, but just because I have a different opinion to someone else, doesn't make their's invalid even if I can't see the relevance or substance. As long as they can, all well and good. Opinions don't mean much in the end. We all have them and are all entitled to our own.
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 19:26:38 -
[13] - Quote
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:I'm of the opinion it's OK to have feelings over a game. To me it's just natural. To me too. I have feelings about EvE myself. I would think it rare not to have feelings about a game. It's just not what I was referring to though in my post.
I think there is a difference between having feelings, emotions and responses to things, than there is to feeling griefed by them. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 19:28:19 -
[14] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Therefore I have nothing else than my own interpretation of what you said. -»\_(pâä)_/-» |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 19:41:39 -
[15] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Therefore I have nothing else than my own interpretation of what you said. -»\_(pâä)_/-» Are you positing you are an adult and mature individual, and that others here are not? If it was anyone else asking these questions Salvos, I would probably feel like responding. I just don't have the care to devote much time to you at all. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46555
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 20:41:02 -
[16] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Further from reading Scipio's posts he sees griefing not as a specific act, but a mindset/frame of mind. If you get killed on a NS gate by a camp and call it griefing you have the mindset that Scipio is talking about. If you got killed in NS to a gate camp and view it as just part of the game and move on....you do not have that mindset. That's the essential core of my opinion, yes. Worded much better, which is my limitation. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46556
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 21:04:08 -
[17] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Yes, emotions are normal, but when you are an adult it is expected that your emotions have less control over you than a child. We expect a child to throw a tantrum, we do not expect it from a child. Are new players children? No, and nothing Scipio wrote indicates he thinks this way. And I don't want to hear your "by extension" bullshit because that stuff is just an outright lie.
He implied Alphas as children, and Omegas as adults. He furthermore stated that an emotional reaction to what happens in a video game is "immature" and hence childish. I argue that the emotional experience of frustration and anger at a loss, is normal. I agree its expression should be tempered by maturity, but the fact that we experience it, is normal and natural in both adults and children.
No, if anything it was the opposite. What Scipio wrote was that if an Omega feels like Alphas are used for "griefing" that it is the Omega who is immature/of the incorrect mindset. You have it exactly backwards and Scipio's view is more about mindsets than it is clone status, he has already indicated this. I really don't see the clone state as crucial to this thread, except for the context in which it is used in the OP.
I certainly haven't claimed, or tried to imply, that Omegas are adults and that alphas are children. I have both omega and alpha characters and their account status doesn't determine how I might respond to something. I don't think I am somehow unique in that.
My opinion is about the mindset of the player, not the account status that the character is on. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46561
|
Posted - 2017.01.08 22:33:17 -
[18] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:If they don't get uptight are they unfeeling, uncaring and lack emotion? That's a good question; and no it's not my view that one means the other.
Just like many things can be represented by a bell curve, in society how people as a whole react to situations can be represented by a bell curve and within that curve, there is a range of emotion that is generally accepted as 'normal'.
For example, if a stranger past me on a walk and said hello, I'd say hello back. That would be normal. But if that same stranger came and gave me a hug, I'd probably be a bit creeped out. Not trying to define absolutes, just trends, norms, etc.
So for me personally, in reacting to things that happen in game, there is also going to be a range of emotions and reactions that is perfectly normal.
The feeling of being griefed is to me, outside that normal range of feelings over a video game. It's at the extreme in my view.
From that, people that are emotionally in check (which I hope is more easily understood than my earlier wording) are not going to be griefed, because they simply can deal with it and move on.
I have not said anything about immaturity. That's all been said by others. I only feel that people who are emotionally secure, no matter whether they are alpha or omega clones, can't ever be griefed in this game and therefore the introduction of alphas hasn't made it any easier or difficult.
A person reacting to an action doesn't care if it's an alpha or an omega that shot them (or whatever they did). That's not the cause of them feeling griefed. It's their own choice to feel that way and it is at the extreme end of reactions in my view. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46564
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 07:58:09 -
[19] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:You're looking at it from character capabilities, I'm looking at it from player maturity. People that are mature don't get upset by things that happen in a video game.
But each to their own. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. This is what you said, so by implication any one that gets upset is immature, so is not an adult and so implication is a man-child so worthy of only contempt.] Didn't we go through this already? Maybe not. I don't know anymore. It's just an opinion.
However, the 'by implication' is your interpretation. It is not my intent at all. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46564
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 08:28:02 -
[20] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:That is what you wrote, either you meant it or you did not, words are clear, ... I did mean it. Yes.
I didn't mean other things that I did not write, but that has been said I did mean.
Unfortunately once again, it doesn't matter what clarification is provided, it'll just be used to push a different message. I'm not interested in that. I meant what I wrote. I stick by it. I didn't at all mean any of the extrapolations of my words. |
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46564
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 08:40:55 -
[21] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:This stuff about "emotionally stable people don't mind being griefed" is just crazy.
I agree. It certainly would be if that was a view that was expressed by anyone. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be a view expressed at all in this thread. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46564
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 08:59:34 -
[22] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:Look up the page.
My version isn't an exact quote ... Ah ok. My mistake.
I thought you were quoting someone when you put it in quotation marks. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46567
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 21:19:20 -
[23] - Quote
Zoe Chu wrote:It costs the ganker a pittance comparatively and they biomass the character after the negative status becomes burdensome. This gets mentioned quite often when it comes to ganking and CODE. and other gankers always deny it.
Looking at the data just for CODE., overwhelmingly they gank with experienced characters that are outlaw and they don't appear to biomass them at all.
Taking the last 1000 ship kills (1013 to keep the analysis to whole days) in highsec by CODE.:
https://puu.sh/tgPEV/6b7bf967f5.png
There are a total of 72 members of CODE. that have been involved.
62 are outlaw status 10 are not outlaw
Of those 62 outlaws, they appear 1768 times on the 1000 ship ganks (ie. most ganks are not solo). The non-outlaw characters appear on just 48 of those ship kills.
They are overwhelmingly ganking with outlaw characters and the names are fairly consistent running the analysis as a time series, rather than limiting it to the number of kills.
If this continues, which I suspect it will, it will suggest that the answer to the OPs question will most likely be no, even when looking at 'griefing' as being an action rather than a mindset. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46568
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 21:42:02 -
[24] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:1) You are presuming that only CODE members gank, which is false. 2) You are presuming that all CODE affiliated players, use only characters in CODE corp, which is also false. Incorrect.
I only showed the analysis for CODE. in that post. I have run the analysis for all ganking in highsec. I regularly run it for all ganking.
It doesn't matter how many times you state something over and over. Stating it doesn't make it true. The data so far shows a different situation. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46568
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 21:56:55 -
[25] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Your own submitted data shows a discrepancy between CODE and non-CODE ganker figures, both of which corroborate and support both of my points. What? lol
There are no non-CODE figures in that data. It is only CODE. members presented there.
Salvos Rhiska wrote:Furthermore you ignored my points on the factual state of the Alpha system promulgating and enabling the generation of an indefinite ite amount of 5mil SP Alpha gank toons, ad infinitum. (As was OPs concern and topic of this thread) Nope. The theory isn't so far matched by the actual practice. If that changes, then it will be interesting and good to know, but currently the data overwhelmingly shows omega clones (from Weapon Type) are used in ganks.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Im beginning to have serious doubts about your vested interests in this issue. That's ok. I don't care what doubts you have.
The great thing about the data is anyone can go and download it and analyse it independently. You don't need to take me word for any of it. Go analyse it yourself. The results will be the same, because none of it is changed by me. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46570
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 22:07:20 -
[26] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You stated you follow ganking stats across the spectrum.
Present them then, if you wish to claim that both of my 1) and 2) points are incorrect
Such that you can demonstrate that A) All ganking is done by CODE B) All ganking is not done by alts of otherwise CODE registered members
You cant. There is no way. Oh god. I've already agreed that not all ganking is by CODE. It was just CODE. related data presented there because otherwise the data is extremely large and shows just the same outcomes.
But, nothing I present will be taken at face value, so there is no point providing any of it to you, when you can also go and download it and analyse it independently of me. Have at it. Don't take my word for it. Go look yourself and be assured by your own analysis of the data rather than mine. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46571
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 22:27:20 -
[27] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:So you present that my arguments are false, but refuse to provide evidence for it that you claim you have, and based on which you justify your position. That is a fallacy.
You furthermore still refuse to address the central topic, and OPs issue, regardiing the indefinite creation and incubation of 5mil free Alphas as throw-away alts for the purposes of bypassing CCPs policy against avoiding the repercussions of sec status loss. Not quite. The only thing you are wrong about is what you stated I presumed. I didnt presume those things at all. That was wrong.
As to what you've said about the theory of alphas, I have no problem with that. It seems obvious that theoretically it could happen because alphas are free and easy to roll. That may not be the only factor involved in deciding that an omega is better than an alpha though.
However, currently the data I have looked at doesn't show it happening in practice. If that changes in the future then that will definitely be interesting. Until then, it still remains that alphas aren't a 'griefing' issue and are not currently being used from what I can see from the data, as easy throw away alts. The data just doesn't show them being used that way.
But don't take my word for it, go download the data and confirm it for yourself. To paraphrase you from another thread, it's not my responsibility to do your homework. I dont have the fukcs to give you. Anyone else, probably.
But this is all going off topic, so I'm not going to go further down this rabbit hole. God luck with your analysis. It will just show the same thing. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46572
|
Posted - 2017.01.09 23:08:48 -
[28] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I am glad you acknowledge the systemic potential o free indefinite incubated 5mil SP Alpha alts as a means to avoid the sec status malus, and to avoid CCPs policy of restriction on avoiding repercussions of sec status loss. I also acknowledge the theoretical potential that I could throw and apple into the air and it won't come down, but will continue to go upwards forever.
Until it happens though, the theoretical potential doesn't mean much. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46573
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 01:07:18 -
[29] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, no. You are totally right. I too demand that Scipio explain why that apple won't come back down? You are both right. I should have by now realised that an analogy would be analysed beyond it's intent and I should have used a simpler example. That was my error, and my apology for it.
What I should have instead said was:
I appreciate that there are many things that are theoretically possible. However if the theory doesn't turn into practice, then it doesn't necessarily mean much. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46573
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 02:06:09 -
[30] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So take that Scipio!
Amen |
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46579
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 08:32:09 -
[31] - Quote
Bad Scipio.
At least I now understand why the apple has caused so much trouble throughout history. Such a simple fruit. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46586
|
Posted - 2017.01.11 07:40:56 -
[32] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:I headed into 0.4 in a cruiser representing most of my net worth looking for better L3 mission income, and assuming somehow 0.4 was just a little worse than 0.5 space, rather than being infested with griefers /lol. I got ganked by lowlifes, and judged it would take too long to get set up again (as per the first point). Did you perhaps mean "lowsec lifers" maybe?
I can't honestly believe someone would read the warning, confirm they want to leave highsec and the judge people who kill them in an area that everyone says people should go to for PvP, as lowlife griefers.
That really does fit in the HTFU category. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46611
|
Posted - 2017.01.17 03:05:42 -
[33] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Provide and overview of how they tried to weed out alts, if they did do this. In the look at the 80,000 players, CCP Rise stated in the presentation that it was individual people, not alt accounts.
He didn't elaborate further, but there's no reason to doubt what he said:
https://youtu.be/A92Ge2S8M1Y (@2min 31sec) |
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