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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
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Posted - 2017.01.08 18:46:58 -
[91] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Aside from that, the fact that I believe that being griefed by an alpha is like an adult being grieved by a child, is really just one opinion. Can you explain this? I can, yes.
**Edit with more detail coming. I'm out photographing at the moment so just typing on a phone. |
Railyn Quisqueya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
59
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Posted - 2017.01.08 18:59:33 -
[92] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote: If you say so I guess. That isn't what I'm saying at all though.
I think I addressed the aspect of joy from a video game in my previous post. It's neither and not even relevant to this thread.
Aside from that, the fact that I believe that being griefed by an alpha is like an adult being grieved by a child, is really just one opinion. No more valid or invalid than anyone else's. It's certainly not worth all the time spent in this thread analysing it. I'm no one special, so my view doesn't carry any more weight than anyone else's. It's just an opinion.
I understand. I'm not trying to be a ****. But I've heard in some form or other people express this sentiment without a proper defense for it and honestly, I can't make sense of it. That's all. I'm of the opinion it's OK to have feelings over a game. To me it's just natural.
And I agree with you regarding alphas. Though at times I'm sure they can get more annoying than usual. What works for me is not showing my feelings to those searching for negative reactions out of me. |
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
1024
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:00:04 -
[93] - Quote
I used to be in the corp that the OP is in
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
1024
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:05:00 -
[94] - Quote
Well, ofc there are different levels of maturity. I get mad when I play Eve. I've even been on the verge of crying. This game is very competitive with real loss and wins. I still tremble so bad after a fight with another Capsuleer I can hardly type and click the little things on the stupid UI.
But every so very rarely i'm on comms and one of my corpmate's roomates is a total petulant child that often breaks computer mice and keyboards over stuff that happens in a game called World of Tanks. That grown-ass man needs to be slapped around and put back into reality. Totally immature. Just a game!!
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Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:06:14 -
[95] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Edit2: actually, it doesn't matter what I write. It'll be interpreted how people want, to push their own message anyway. So read into it what you want. That's what will happen no matter how much clarification is made.
Yeah. Whatever.
You refused to substantiate your opinion of labeling new players as children, and those beset by them as adults, as somehow reacting badly to the actions of a child, or vice versa.
I don't see the relevance, substance or rationale behind your opinion at all.
Emotions are normal for all humans. Adults have no more or less emotions than children do. New players are no less adult than old ones.
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:12:16 -
[96] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: You refused to substantiate your opinion of labeling new players as children, and those beset by them, as somehow reacting badly to the actions of a child.
I don't see the relevance, substance or rationale behind your opinion at all.
Like I wrote before, people will interpret what I write for exactly their own purpose, just like here.
I have never claimed any of those things. I've never said new players are children, nor that those that react to them are reacting to the actions of a child. I never would say that. It's an incorrect interpretation of what I wrote. In fact, I haven't (and wouldn't because I don't have sufficient knowledge to do so), claimed anything at all about the negative side of a response to anything.
But in the end, if everyone agreed on things the World would be a boring place, but just because I have a different opinion to someone else, doesn't make their's invalid even if I can't see the relevance or substance. As long as they can, all well and good. Opinions don't mean much in the end. We all have them and are all entitled to our own.
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Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:26:36 -
[97] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote: Like I wrote before, people will interpret what I write for exactly their own purpose, just like here..
I asked you to explain your opinion. You refused.
Therefore I have nothing else than my own interpretation of what you said.
My opinion, and the reason I asked, is I am tired of "maturity" arguments and inflections. According to most normative attitudes on what constitutes being an adult, none of us should be playing video games.
It is false to think vets are "adults", and new players "children". They are overwhelmingly as adult as you or I (barring those who actually are children).
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:26:38 -
[98] - Quote
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:I'm of the opinion it's OK to have feelings over a game. To me it's just natural. To me too. I have feelings about EvE myself. I would think it rare not to have feelings about a game. It's just not what I was referring to though in my post.
I think there is a difference between having feelings, emotions and responses to things, than there is to feeling griefed by them. |
Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:28:19 -
[99] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Therefore I have nothing else than my own interpretation of what you said. -»\_(pâä)_/-» |
Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:37:07 -
[100] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Therefore I have nothing else than my own interpretation of what you said. -»\_(pâä)_/-»
Are you positing you are an adult and mature individual, and that others here are not?
Are you claiming you have not experienced anger and frustration as a result of player action against you in this game?
Are you claiming that the experience of such emotions to a loss, is misplaced and "immature" amongst adults, as this is just a video game?
As another poster pointed out, do you not see the equivalency between joy in success, and grief at loss, as human emotional reactions even in this video game, as natural? Are they immature?
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46552
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:41:39 -
[101] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Therefore I have nothing else than my own interpretation of what you said. -»\_(pâä)_/-» Are you positing you are an adult and mature individual, and that others here are not? If it was anyone else asking these questions Salvos, I would probably feel like responding. I just don't have the care to devote much time to you at all. |
Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 19:43:02 -
[102] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Therefore I have nothing else than my own interpretation of what you said. -»\_(pâä)_/-» Are you positing you are an adult and mature individual, and that others here are not? If it was anyone else asking these questions Salvos, I would probably feel like responding. I just don't have the care to devote much time to you at all.
Oh, so its personal
How mature of you.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5674
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Posted - 2017.01.08 20:28:39 -
[103] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Edit2: actually, it doesn't matter what I write. It'll be interpreted how people want, to push their own message anyway. So read into it what you want. That's what will happen no matter how much clarification is made. Yeah. Whatever. You refused to substantiate your opinion of labeling new players as children, and those beset by them as adults, as somehow reacting badly to the actions of a child, or vice versa. I don't see the relevance, substance or rationale behind your opinion at all. Emotions are normal for all humans. Adults have no more or less emotions than children do. New players are no less adult than old ones.
Way to prove Scipio right. He decides that it is not worth fleshing out his argument and is fine to let it drop, but here you are trying to interpret his argument in a way that he did not imply.
Nowhere did Scipio write or imply that a new player is like a child. He said that getting "griefed" by an alpha is like getting griefed by a child. Further from reading Scipio's posts he sees griefing not as a specific act, but a mindset/frame of mind. If you get killed on a NS gate by a camp and call it griefing you have the mindset that Scipio is talking about. If you got killed in NS to a gate camp and view it as just part of the game and move on....you do not have that mindset.
Part of the problem with all these griefing threads, IMO, is that people have a mindset that is not really suited to the game. If you die in a way you don't like that is not griefing. Griefing in EVE is very limited. Luring noobs into a fight in a starter system is an example of griefing, for example. Ganking, corp thefts, scams, gate camping in NS/LS, roams, BLOPs are not griefing no matter how much you don't like it. It is a part of the game that CCP not only tolerates, IMO, but that they implicitly encourage. They have a farking video out there of a guy getting revenge on an alliance by robbing them blind.
Yes, emotions are normal, but when you are an adult it is expected that your emotions have less control over you than a child. We expect a child to throw a tantrum, we do not expect it from a child. Are new players children? No, and nothing Scipio wrote indicates he thinks this way. And I don't want to hear your "by extension" bullshit because that stuff is just an outright lie.
Oh, and heads up, Alpha clones are not necessarily "new players". If I let my account lapse I'd be an Alpha clone, but I'd be nowhere close to being a new player.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5674
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Posted - 2017.01.08 20:31:37 -
[104] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Therefore I have nothing else than my own interpretation of what you said. -»\_(pâä)_/-» Are you positing you are an adult and mature individual, and that others here are not? If it was anyone else asking these questions Salvos, I would probably feel like responding. I just don't have the care to devote much time to you at all. Oh, so its personal How mature of you.
Maybe it is your twisting his statements.
Please link or quote where Scipio wrote that a new player is immature.
I know you'll link or quote something, but it won't say that new players are immature. What Scipio implied is that people who feel that they have been griefed in game are immature. People who feel that way can be old, or new.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46555
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Posted - 2017.01.08 20:41:02 -
[105] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Further from reading Scipio's posts he sees griefing not as a specific act, but a mindset/frame of mind. If you get killed on a NS gate by a camp and call it griefing you have the mindset that Scipio is talking about. If you got killed in NS to a gate camp and view it as just part of the game and move on....you do not have that mindset. That's the essential core of my opinion, yes. Worded much better, which is my limitation. |
Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 20:43:25 -
[106] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Way to prove Scipio right. He decides that it is not worth fleshing out his argument and is fine to let it drop, but here you are trying to interpret his argument in a way that he did not imply.
Scipio specifically refused to ecplain his opinion, and therafter specifically stated its personal.
Nowhere did Scipio write or imply that a new player is like a child. He said that getting "griefed" by an alpha is like getting griefed by a child. Further from reading Scipio's posts he sees griefing not as a specific act, but a mindset/frame of mind. If you get killed on a NS gate by a camp and call it griefing you have the mindset that Scipio is talking about. If you got killed in NS to a gate camp and view it as just part of the game and move on....you do not have that mindset.
The direct conclusion, is that Alphas are children, and getting griefed by them is like being griefed by a child, by your own explanation. Which implicates an adult player to react to them, as if to a child, rather than the adult they are. I agree on your delineation of what constitutes griefing. I hate the term myself, and its misused.
Part of the problem with all these griefing threads, IMO, is that people have a mindset that is not really suited to the game. If you die in a way you don't like that is not griefing. Griefing in EVE is very limited. Luring noobs into a fight in a starter system is an example of griefing, for example. Ganking, corp thefts, scams, gate camping in NS/LS, roams, BLOPs are not griefing no matter how much you don't like it. It is a part of the game that CCP not only tolerates, IMO, but that they implicitly encourage. They have a farking video out there of a guy getting revenge on an alliance by robbing them blind.
I agree.
Yes, emotions are normal, but when you are an adult it is expected that your emotions have less control over you than a child. We expect a child to throw a tantrum, we do not expect it from a child. Are new players children? No, and nothing Scipio wrote indicates he thinks this way. And I don't want to hear your "by extension" bullshit because that stuff is just an outright lie.
He implied Alphas as children, and Omegas as adults. He furthermore stated that an emotional reaction to what happens in a video game is "immature" and hence childish. I argue that the emotional experience of frustration and anger at a loss, is normal. I agree its expression should be tempered by maturity, but the fact that we experience it, is normal and natural.
Oh, and heads up, Alpha clones are not necessarily "new players". If I let my account lapse I'd be an Alpha clone, but I'd be nowhere close to being a new player.
This is obvious. But apparently not to Scipio, whom directly associated Alphas as "children".
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
1028
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Posted - 2017.01.08 20:50:41 -
[107] - Quote
Oh look everyone, it's Semantics Salvos
@lunettelulu7
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5675
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Posted - 2017.01.08 20:53:13 -
[108] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Nowhere did Scipio write or imply that a new player is like a child. He said that getting "griefed" by an alpha is like getting griefed by a child. Further from reading Scipio's posts he sees griefing not as a specific act, but a mindset/frame of mind. If you get killed on a NS gate by a camp and call it griefing you have the mindset that Scipio is talking about. If you got killed in NS to a gate camp and view it as just part of the game and move on....you do not have that mindset.
The direct conclusion, is that Alphas are children, and getting griefed by them is like being griefed by a child, by your own explanation. Which implicates an adult player to react to them, as if to a child, rather than the adult they are. I agree on your delineation of what constitutes griefing. I hate the term myself, and its misused.
[Note: bold and italics in the original]
No, that literally does not follow at all. That is a classic example of a non-sequitur. What Scipio is saying is that people who complain about a variety of totally valid forms of game play in EVE Online as griefing have the incorrect mindset. He used the term immature and that might be unpleasant, but it in all likelihood may be true as well in many cases.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 20:55:02 -
[109] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:Oh look everyone, it's Semantics Salvos
Quoting those 5 instances would have broken the forum rules.
Give me credit where its due. I take pains to answer to specific points, and try to otherwise deliver my own arguments in itemized, numbered format so as to make it easier for others to address them in a systematic fashion.
You can poop on me for many things, but not for the above.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5675
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Posted - 2017.01.08 20:57:23 -
[110] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Yes, emotions are normal, but when you are an adult it is expected that your emotions have less control over you than a child. We expect a child to throw a tantrum, we do not expect it from a child. Are new players children? No, and nothing Scipio wrote indicates he thinks this way. And I don't want to hear your "by extension" bullshit because that stuff is just an outright lie.
He implied Alphas as children, and Omegas as adults. He furthermore stated that an emotional reaction to what happens in a video game is "immature" and hence childish. I argue that the emotional experience of frustration and anger at a loss, is normal. I agree its expression should be tempered by maturity, but the fact that we experience it, is normal and natural in both adults and children.
No, if anything it was the opposite. What Scipio wrote was that if an Omega feels like Alphas are used for "griefing" that it is the Omega who is immature/of the incorrect mindset. You have it exactly backwards and Scipio's view is more about mindsets than it is clone status, he has already indicated this.
BTW, this is another non-sequitur.
Also, Scipio said that adults/mature people do not have emotions. You have quite clearly read that into his posts.
Is it any wonder he is not interested in discussing this with you?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:01:02 -
[111] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, that literally does not follow at all. That is a classic example of a non-sequitur. What Scipio is saying is that people who complain about a variety of totally valid forms of game play in EVE Online as griefing have the incorrect mindset. He used the term immature and that might be unpleasant, but it in all likelihood may be true as well in many cases.
Immaturity is synonymous with childhood.
He specifically expressed his opinion of Alphas as children, and thus the reactions of others as requiring adult maturity.
I agree those forms of content do not constitute griefing, and that the term is misused. I also agree that those persons whom are victim to them, do not have the right mindset in EVE if they lose their mind over it.
But "maturity" or "immaturity" in no way shape or form applies to any of this, nor can the maturity of that person be deduced from their reaction to loss.
If someone loses their wallet IRL, and gets angry/frustrated about it, that can hardly be considered immature. Its normal. Their emotional control may lapse in the face of the loss, but it is not an indicator of immaturity.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5675
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:02:39 -
[112] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Lulu Lunette wrote:Oh look everyone, it's Semantics Salvos Quoting those 5 instances would have broken the forum rules. Give me credit where its due. I take pains to answer to specific points, and try to otherwise deliver my own arguments in itemized, numbered format so as to make it easier for others to address them in a systematic fashion. You can poop on me for many things, but not for the above.
Lulu was not talking about your quoting, but about the fact that you take what somebody has written and run with it in ridiculous directions. You last post has two non-sequiturs and one straw man at least.
Did Scipio write or imply that Alphas are children/immature? No.
Did Scipio write or imply that mature/adult players do not experience emotions related to the game? No.
You are literally arguing that Scipio holds both views when it is quite clear he does not.
Here, lets settle this.
Scipio,
Do you believe that Alphas are children or are immature?
Do you think that adults do not feel emotions in relation to playing the game EVE Online?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46556
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:04:08 -
[113] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Yes, emotions are normal, but when you are an adult it is expected that your emotions have less control over you than a child. We expect a child to throw a tantrum, we do not expect it from a child. Are new players children? No, and nothing Scipio wrote indicates he thinks this way. And I don't want to hear your "by extension" bullshit because that stuff is just an outright lie.
He implied Alphas as children, and Omegas as adults. He furthermore stated that an emotional reaction to what happens in a video game is "immature" and hence childish. I argue that the emotional experience of frustration and anger at a loss, is normal. I agree its expression should be tempered by maturity, but the fact that we experience it, is normal and natural in both adults and children.
No, if anything it was the opposite. What Scipio wrote was that if an Omega feels like Alphas are used for "griefing" that it is the Omega who is immature/of the incorrect mindset. You have it exactly backwards and Scipio's view is more about mindsets than it is clone status, he has already indicated this. I really don't see the clone state as crucial to this thread, except for the context in which it is used in the OP.
I certainly haven't claimed, or tried to imply, that Omegas are adults and that alphas are children. I have both omega and alpha characters and their account status doesn't determine how I might respond to something. I don't think I am somehow unique in that.
My opinion is about the mindset of the player, not the account status that the character is on. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5675
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:04:32 -
[114] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No, that literally does not follow at all. That is a classic example of a non-sequitur. What Scipio is saying is that people who complain about a variety of totally valid forms of game play in EVE Online as griefing have the incorrect mindset. He used the term immature and that might be unpleasant, but it in all likelihood may be true as well in many cases.
Immaturity is synonymous with childhood. He specifically expressed his opinion of Alphas as children. I agree those forms of content do not constitute griefing, and that the term is misused. I also agree that those persons whom are victim to them, do not have the right mindset in EVE if they lose their mind over it. But "maturity" or "immaturity" in no way shape or form applies to any of this, nor can the maturity of that person be deduced from their reaction to loss. If someone loses their wallet IRL, and gets angry/frustrated about it, that can hardly be considered immature. Its normal. Their emotional control may lapse in the face of the loss, but it is not an indicator of immaturity.
No he did not. You are basing all of your posts so far on logical fallacies.
This is why Scipio is not discussing this with you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:04:58 -
[115] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Here, lets settle this.
Scipio,
Do you believe that Alphas are children or are immature?
Do you think that adults do not feel emotions in relation to playing the game EVE Online?
I specifically asked him for an explanation of his opinion on exactly these points.
He refused, because of personal issues (very mature).
If you can get the explanation from him, good. I couldnt. He refused to answer me like a petulant child.
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Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:05:47 -
[116] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:You are basing all of your posts so far on logical fallacies.
Explain where and how, exactly.
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Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:06:42 -
[117] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:My opinion is about the mindset of the player, not the account status that the character is on.
Please explain this in context of this discussion.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5683
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:06:43 -
[118] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Here, lets settle this.
Scipio,
Do you believe that Alphas are children or are immature?
Do you think that adults do not feel emotions in relation to playing the game EVE Online? I specifically asked him for an explanation of his opinion on exactly these points. He refused, because of personal issues (very mature). If you can get the explanation from him, good. I couldnt. He refused to answer me like a petulant child.
Jesus ******* Christ...you can't even let him ******* answer? You have to respond to a question I put to Scipio and put words in his keyboard? Really?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5683
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:08:09 -
[119] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You are basing all of your posts so far on logical fallacies. Explain where and how, exactly.
I already.
LInk
Link
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
1918
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:08:19 -
[120] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:I believe that being griefed by an alpha is like an adult being grieved by a child
Explain this.
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