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Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
1183
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Posted - 2017.01.10 07:45:24 -
[211] - Quote
Alpha accounts give new players an 'unlimited' trial period where they can experience much of what the game has to offer before plonking down the readies for a subscription. Alphas *seem* to be doing a decent job of getting newer players into EVE. Bittervets can let their accounts lapse and still stay socially active through the game while taking a hiatus as an Alpha.
No, I wouldn't say Alpha clones are a *problem*. More like an elegant solution to a complex problem, actually.
The next step is when major alliances weaponize Alpha clones en-masse. Swarms of newbros in Crucifiers, Celestii, Arbitrators and Maulus is a battle proven tactic and a fleet role the Alpha can really excel at, especially when deployed in numbers.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2731
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Posted - 2017.01.10 07:48:00 -
[212] - Quote
Reason why Eve is declining at this point, no real goal for casuals, when CCP decided to give destroyers heavy DPS and did not increase mining ship tank so all had the tank of a wet paper back and left it like that for two and a half years, massive decline in subs. The gankers cannot prove that wrong. CCP Falcons decision on hyperdunking resulting in a wave of bumping of freighters for hours also had an impact, and of course we should not forget the choice to shift manufacturing advantage to null sec. which was another impact on casual play.
Now back to the matter in hand, Salvos you make some interesting points, a ganker can set up multiple Alpha accounts, then all he does is train them up to max gank related skills within the Alpha range then when they are there he just subs them for a month train up T2 small blasters or Vexor and T2 sentry skills or use injectors and there you go, one up to speed gank toon. If they do that systematically and if one looks at the way they mine (gank) freighters which is systematic they will they can roll them over no issue.
So it will speed up the availability of gank toons, however most freighter and miner gankers such as CODE use -10 toons, at the moment with bumping they have no issues with being -10 because they bump the freighter until the pilot logs in disgust or is not trying to warp then they hold it in position to warp in on. All they have to do is keep moving to keep away from the faction police and they largely use SB's now so the range is not an issue, mainly because AG was bumping the freighter out of Catalyst optimal.
CODE also use -10's for miner ganking because the preferred ship a Catalyst is fast and has high DPS so they warp to a scout next to the miner and blap, so using a long established toon is not an issue.
Should the bumping mechanism change then they will use those Alpha accounts more because they might have to play gate games with a freighter who holds his cloak, this is why the bumping mechanism is such a huge advantage to them, from my point of view I would trade the ease of bumping for gankers using Alpha accounts like this, but that will only be an issue should CCP ever do anything about bumping and due to the vested interests of certain players and their closeness to certain devs it is not going to happen, look how they got freighter EHP changed so quickly when AG started ganking freighter wrecks and compare that to how slow they are implementing this naff fix to bumping to see a certain amount of corruption there..
What it does affect is the run of the mill gankers sitting on gates in Vexors or around hubs in Tornados, they had an impact in terms of training the right skills, Vexor's T2 Sentries and T2 blasters for the gate gankers and had to keep getting security status sorted, this will be come easier because they can just roll them over, so it will make ganking easier, but I don't see a major issue from that as most of them roll over toons with ratting and buying those tags, it will just make that part easier.
I am likely missing something, but that is about how I see it which is why I said I don't think the impact is major at this moment, if you can pick holes in that or see anything I have not thought about I would appreciate it.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3426
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Posted - 2017.01.10 07:51:13 -
[213] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: When CCP introduced Alphas, they changed the systems of EVE.
It is now actually possible (not theoretically possible) to create 10/100/1000 throwaway alts, incubate them to 5mil SP, for purposes of avoiding the CCP recycling policy regarding avoiding sec loss repercussions.
This is nothing new and was possible before. Since the revision of the new player skills it took only 16min to create a new Catalyst alt: http://www.minerbumping.com/2015/10/catalyst-training-under-new-system.html
If you wanted an throwaway alt which can not be multiboxed this was always possible. The sec status hits if you kill someone in Highsec are so severe that you will reach the limit of it's usability in under 15 days anyway if sec status is the issue (which it isn't, we solved that one a long time ago).
Salvos Rhoska wrote: It is furthermore a practical reality, not a theoretical possibility, that not all HS suicide ganking is conducted by CODE corp tagged members. (For purposes of which, incidentally, indefinite and anonymous Alphas can also be created as neutral hauling alts to carry off the loot)
Alpha alts can not be multiboxed and while they can probably be used as Venture gankers, which you could also do with a trial account, they are not really useful for anything else since it would need multiple characters. You can also completely forget the loot since you have no neutral alt to move the loot.
Salvos Rhoska wrote: It is furthermore a practical, demonstrable, reality, not a theoretical possibility, that when you throw an apple up on Earth, it will drop to the ground as a result of gravity.
Checkmate.
This is only true for apples thrown with v < 11.186 km/s
You are not very good at chess
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Salvos Rhoska
1936
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Posted - 2017.01.10 07:58:02 -
[214] - Quote
Nothing you have said refutes the fact that what I have said, is a practical reality, not theoretical. You have merely corroborated those as a practical reality.
As to the apple, you conveniently omitted the parts where I pointed out: -Scipio does not have the strength to accelerate an apple to those velocities by throwing it. -Even if he did, the apple would almost instantly disintegrate from that much force exerted on it, thus ceasing to be "an apple" and would get nowhere near the distance required to escape Earth's gravity well, and the pieces of that apple would fall down due to gravity.
Its still checkmate.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5714
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:08:55 -
[215] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: It is not theoretically possible.
It is actually possible, in practice.
Pretty much the same thing.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3429
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:13:05 -
[216] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nothing you have said refutes the fact that what I have said, is a practical reality, not theoretical. You have merely corroborated those as a practical reality. I did not say it can't be done. I just said your assertion that this is something new which came with alpha clones is wrong since it was possible long before that.
I did not say it is not actually happening, it may. I can just say from my experience as a suicide ganker that it is unnecessary since we worked around the sec status issue by using small agile ships and bookmarks and that it is far more cost effective to play a ganker as an omega account.
Salvos Rhoska wrote: As to the apple, you conveniently omitted the parts where I pointed out: -Scipio does not have the strength to accelerate an apple to those velocities by throwing it. -Even if he did, the apple would almost instantly disintegrate from that much force exerted on it, thus ceasing to be "an apple" and would get nowhere near the distance required to escape Earth's gravity well, and the pieces of that apple would fall down due to gravity.
Its still checkmate.
Are you serious? You edited your answer to patch your futile argument which has nothing to do with the discussion anyway?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Salvos Rhoska
1936
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:17:08 -
[217] - Quote
That is a solipsistic argument, that furthermore ignores the context in which you are applying it.
It is theoretically possible that I can buy CCP in the next five minutes. However I have no real practical means to do so, thus the theoretical possibility is reduced to zero.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3062
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:19:40 -
[218] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nothing you have said refutes the fact that what I have said, is a practical reality, not theoretical. You have merely corroborated those as a practical reality.
Other practical realities include spawning an infinite amount of tritanium via Rookie ship.
Alt recycling has pretty much always been an AG bogeyman.
Anyone with an IQ over room temperature who has actually considered it pretty rapidly realizes it's pointless. Sec status as a penalty is of no consequence to a gank alt, so there's ****-all reason to reset it.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Salvos Rhoska
1936
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:21:38 -
[219] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nothing you have said refutes the fact that what I have said, is a practical reality, not theoretical. You have merely corroborated those as a practical reality.
Other practical realities include spawning an infinite amount of tritanium via Rookie ship.
Correct.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5714
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:22:09 -
[220] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:That is a solipsistic argument, that furthermore ignores the context in which you are applying it.
Nope. A theoretical possibility is something that can happen. You are correct. A player could set up a large number of Alpha alts and use them in ganking. However, such characters are of limited use relative to an Omega alt. As has been pointed out the notion of making throw away alts has been around quite awhile and most gankers have developed ways to deal with the sec status issue. So the question remaining is it happening and if so is it something that is happening enough to be a problem. That you have not shown. Not at all. All we have is speculation and conjecture.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5714
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:24:15 -
[221] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nothing you have said refutes the fact that what I have said, is a practical reality, not theoretical. You have merely corroborated those as a practical reality.
Other practical realities include spawning an infinite amount of tritanium via Rookie ship. Correct.
Aside from the rather staggering opportunity cost.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3430
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:24:21 -
[222] - Quote
May I also point out that one of the reasons that alpha clones can't be multiboxed was the fear of the community of people creating free gank alts, no matter how many times we pointed out that:
- sec status is no issue because we worked around that for a long time by limiting our gank alts to small agile ships and using bookmarks - omega gank clones are practically free since the introduction of SP extractors which was pointed out back then in the threat where they announced them (no body listened)
The only thing that changed related to suicide gank alts is the following:
You can now grow a Catalyst alt with less PLEX as before since you can just alpha train him and he will be ready for omega upgrade and the SP extraction cycle by the time he has finished all the skills an alpha is capable of learning.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3063
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:32:04 -
[223] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nothing you have said refutes the fact that what I have said, is a practical reality, not theoretical. You have merely corroborated those as a practical reality.
Other practical realities include spawning an infinite amount of tritanium via Rookie ship. Correct.
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical, less capable, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
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Scipio Artelius
Savage Moon Society
46579
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:32:09 -
[224] - Quote
Bad Scipio.
At least I now understand why the apple has caused so much trouble throughout history. Such a simple fruit. |
Salvos Rhoska
1936
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:40:02 -
[225] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
No.
I was concerned with repudiating claims that it was theoretical, rather than real.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5716
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:42:20 -
[226] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You are correct. Thank you for acknowledging that. As to the rest of your post, they apply only to your own implications and conjecture. Not what I have actually said or argued.
Nope. You are wrong. Creating a number of Alpha clones is possible for ganking, but as has been pointed out why bother? Set up one Alpha account, set up the skills for ganking, let it train. When ready, sub it and start using it. When it is "full trained" use it as an SP farm or part of an SP farm. Gank. Get some loot, ISK from SP and use it buy a PLEX for said gank alt. There. Free gank alt that is generating ISK, maybe even more than sufficient ISK for a PLEX, and no need to ditch the character for sec status as people have adapted to that issue.
The idea of setting up Alpha clone after Alpha clone ignores the notion of opportunity costs. All the time I spend setting up such characters I could be ganking or letting my Omega gank alt earn some SP. Or even doing something else entirely.
And there is exactly zero evidence for your position. None. Zilch. Nada. Zero. The empty set. All there is is your hypothesis. You cannot point to a single example of this happening.
So yes, you are correct. It is possible. But nobody seems inclined to do it, and there appears to be no evidence that any actually has done it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5716
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:44:04 -
[227] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
No. I was concerned with repudiating claims that it was theoretical, rather than real.
It isn't real because there is no evidence it has happened. All it is is a conjecture. A possibility. Nothing more. Now, if you go find somebody actually doing this. Heck, go start doing it yourself. Start setting up Alpha gank alts. Come back and tell us how long it took you set up 50 of them.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
1936
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:45:37 -
[228] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So yes, you are correct.
Thank you.
The rest of of your post applies conditionals that I have never argued, or stated, and which I am not required to defend as if I had.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3434
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:47:31 -
[229] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
No. I was concerned with repudiating claims that it was theoretical, rather than real. I agree that the possibility is real. If it was not, people would not address the practicability which is actually dependent on it.
But if I am not mistaken you also asserted that this possibility is new and this part is just not true since I described that it could be done with trial accounts before alpha clones existed. They would have been even worse given the fact that they trained at twice the rate an alpha clone does.
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5716
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:47:32 -
[230] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nothing you have said refutes the fact that what I have said, is a practical reality, not theoretical. You have merely corroborated those as a practical reality.
Other practical realities include spawning an infinite amount of tritanium via Rookie ship. Correct. So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
Yes, just like the dingbat trying to spawn a billion units of tritanium via rookie ships. I imagine even the most dedicated person would quit after about the 100th rookie ship. And I bet in that amount of time you could get an order of magnitude more ISK in one rookie ship than via spawning it by new rookie ships.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
1937
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:50:26 -
[231] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
No. I was concerned with repudiating claims that it was theoretical, rather than real. I agree that the possibility is real. If it was not, people would not address the practicability which is actually dependent on it. But if I am not mistaken you also asserted that this possibility is new and this part is just not true since I described that it could be done with trial accounts before alpha clones existed. They would have been even worse given the fact that they trained at twice the rate an alpha clone does.
The possibility of: 1) Incubating indefinite amounts of persistent 5mil SP toons, for free, is new. 2) Using those toons to avoid CCP restrictions on character recycling so as to avoid sec status repercussions, is new. 3) Trials had a 15day free period in which to accrue SP and act. 4) The Alpha system is "new", by definition.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5716
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:51:51 -
[232] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So yes, you are correct. Thank you. The rest of of your post applies conditionals that I have never argued, or stated, and which I am not required to defend as if I had.
Can we all agree that Salvos found a non-problem?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3063
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:52:36 -
[233] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
No. I was concerned with repudiating claims that it was theoretical, rather than real.
That's not where you started, though: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6787444#post6787444
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
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Salvos Rhoska
1937
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:54:18 -
[234] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So yes, you are correct. Thank you. The rest of of your post applies conditionals that I have never argued, or stated, and which I am not required to defend as if I had. Can we all agree that Salvos found a non-problem?
You tried to make a problem out of nothing, by implying things I have never argued or stated.
After several pages of futile efforts to contrive me to have said things I have not, you ended up acknowledging, twice, that I am and was correct.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5717
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:55:35 -
[235] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
No. I was concerned with repudiating claims that it was theoretical, rather than real. I agree that the possibility is real. If it was not, people would not address the practicability which is actually dependent on it. But if I am not mistaken you also asserted that this possibility is new and this part is just not true since I described that it could be done with trial accounts before alpha clones existed. They would have been even worse given the fact that they trained at twice the rate an alpha clone does. The possibility of: 1) Incubating indefinite amounts of persistent 5mil SP toons, for free, is new. 2) Using those toons to avoid CCP restrictions on character recycling so as to avoid sec status repercussions, is new. 3) Trials had a 15day free period in which to accrue SP and act. 4) The Alpha system is "new", by definition.
Aside from the substantial opportunity cost which you noted.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5717
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:56:23 -
[236] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So yes, you are correct. Thank you. The rest of of your post applies conditionals that I have never argued, or stated, and which I am not required to defend as if I had. Can we all agree that Salvos found a non-problem? You tried to make a problem out of nothing, by implying things I have never argued or stated. After several pages of futile efforts to contrive me to have said things I have not, you ended up acknowledging, twice, that I am and was correct.
I have noted that you have found a non-problem. That is it. Your rather dishonest quoting aside....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
1937
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:57:21 -
[237] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
No. I was concerned with repudiating claims that it was theoretical, rather than real. That's not where you started, though: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6787444#post6787444
Yes, it is not where I started.
Due to people making false implications and strawman arguments, I was drawn into a defense of the reality of that being possible, as opposed to theoretical.
As in that post, I still maintain that the repercussions of this now being possible in a real way, means there may be a problem when the majority of incubated 5mil toons created on or near the date of inception of Alphas start to proliferate in EVE.
That outcome is theoretical, but that it can happen, is real, not theoretical.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5717
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:58:05 -
[238] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So what you're really concerned with is that it's technically possible for a particularly stupid player to operate a gank-alt in a fashion that is less practical than, less capable than, and has no actual benefit over the status quo.
No. I was concerned with repudiating claims that it was theoretical, rather than real. That's not where you started, though: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6787444#post6787444
Yep, there he noted the rather large opportunity costs. Logging in, setting up skills, etc. Not to mention simply creating the accounts themselves. But nope, that all gets tossed out and not is so real that apparently we don't even need actual empirical evidence of it because Salvos says so.
A giant load of tripe.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Salvos Rhoska
1937
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:59:12 -
[239] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Your rather dishonest quoting aside.... I was not dishonest in my quoting.
I quoted the only part relevant to arguments I had actually made. The rest of your posts where conjecture, implications and strawmen that tried to claim I had taken positions I had not, and which I am thus not required to defend.
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Salvos Rhoska
1937
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Posted - 2017.01.10 09:01:07 -
[240] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Yep, there he noted the rather large opportunity costs. Logging in, setting up skills, etc. Not to mention simply creating the accounts themselves. But nope, that all gets tossed out and not is so real that apparently we don't even need actual empirical evidence of it because Salvos says so.
None of it got tossed out anywhere.
The fact that I specifically acknowledged and stated those opportunity costs, shows that I had already considered and included them in my position well before you ever brought those up much later.
Instead you spent 2-3 pages wasting everyones time on whether it was a theoretical possibility, or a real possibility, as made possible by the changes to EVEs systems.
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