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Roscojameson
The Riot Formation
4
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Posted - 2011.12.26 19:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Fedimart wrote:We could just make all ships and turrets exactly the same and just have different graphics for them. For example an AC Hurricane would be exactly the same as a HAM Drake except look different... Would that make all the people crying for "balance" happy? How about just accept the fact that different ships will have different uses, tanks, range and DPS. Yes the CNR and Ferox aren't on the top of ships used for PVP but so what? Get yourself the correct ship for the job and quit crying about not being able to do it with some other ship. If all ships were "balanced" Eve would suck!
People aren't crying for equality. They're crying for their SP to not be completely wasted. There are no fleets out there that want a Gallente Battleship. Really, Gallente and Caldari battlehips are only worth mentioning for their ability to do missions well in one way or another. That's kind of silly in a PvP oriented game. |
Fedimart
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
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Posted - 2011.12.26 20:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Roscojameson wrote:Fedimart wrote:We could just make all ships and turrets exactly the same and just have different graphics for them. For example an AC Hurricane would be exactly the same as a HAM Drake except look different... Would that make all the people crying for "balance" happy? How about just accept the fact that different ships will have different uses, tanks, range and DPS. Yes the CNR and Ferox aren't on the top of ships used for PVP but so what? Get yourself the correct ship for the job and quit crying about not being able to do it with some other ship. If all ships were "balanced" Eve would suck! People aren't crying for equality. They're crying for their SP to not be completely wasted. There are no fleets out there that want a Gallente Battleship. Really, Gallente and Caldari battlehips are only worth mentioning for their ability to do missions well in one way or another. That's kind of silly in a PvP oriented game.
I have both Gallente and Caldari Battlehip 5 and yes they might not be the best for PVP... I'll be the first to say Caldari Battlehips suck at general purpose PVP but I can't seem to remember anyone forcing me to train it. If you're a PVP oriented pilot and you're going to cry about wasted SP in Caldari Battlehip well you only have yourself to blame. For me it wasn't a waste since I run missions. |
Roscojameson
The Riot Formation
4
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Posted - 2011.12.26 21:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
Fedimart wrote:Roscojameson wrote:Fedimart wrote:We could just make all ships and turrets exactly the same and just have different graphics for them. For example an AC Hurricane would be exactly the same as a HAM Drake except look different... Would that make all the people crying for "balance" happy? How about just accept the fact that different ships will have different uses, tanks, range and DPS. Yes the CNR and Ferox aren't on the top of ships used for PVP but so what? Get yourself the correct ship for the job and quit crying about not being able to do it with some other ship. If all ships were "balanced" Eve would suck! People aren't crying for equality. They're crying for their SP to not be completely wasted. There are no fleets out there that want a Gallente Battleship. Really, Gallente and Caldari battlehips are only worth mentioning for their ability to do missions well in one way or another. That's kind of silly in a PvP oriented game. I have both Gallente and Caldari Battlehip 5 and yes they might not be the best for PVP... I'll be the first to say Caldari Battlehips suck at general purpose PVP but I can't seem to remember anyone forcing me to train it. If you're a PVP oriented pilot and you're going to cry about wasted SP in Caldari Battlehip well you only have yourself to blame. For me it wasn't a waste since I run missions.
By that logic, why even bother having multiple races? Minmatar and Amarr both have amazing ships for PVE, on top of being the PvP kings. We'll just have 2 sets of ship skills. We'll call them "PVE battlehips/cruisers/frigates" and "Anything your heart desires battlehips/cruisers/frigates"
It's not like you start the game and gallente and caldari are labeled as being bad at PvP. Cross-training can take months depending on how big of ships you want to cross-train to. Don't waste your time with ******** statements like "nobody told you to train xxx." That's just ignoring the problem.
Edit: Could you imagine how balancing would be if everyone thought like this? Theoretical situation:
"Ah s***, we nerfed HML's so bad they hardly cut it for missions. Oh well, minmatar ships can pick up the slack with the projectiles. Everyone's bound to train for them sooner or later." |
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
30
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Posted - 2011.12.26 21:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:The Fix ....
decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before
Maths, you're failing at it. |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2011.12.26 21:39:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sir I find your argument stupid, your manner arrogant and your pursuit of a bland generic eve online quite frankly frightful.
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Fade Azura
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
6
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
Masamune Dekoro wrote:Fade Azura wrote:The Fix ....
decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before
Maths, you're failing at it.
Care to elaborate how i am failing at maths ohh great professor Masamune?? if you hit half as hard but half again as fast it would still be the same overall dps. DERP.
anyways you know where i am going with that ... reduce artillery alpha and increase ROF so the dps is the same (or even possibly slightly higher) however thats achieved i dont care as long it balances the long range turret systems more. |
Fade Azura
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
6
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
Baron vonDoom wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Came here expecting turret balancing discussion but got stealth nerf minmatar long range guns,short range guns,range,tracking,targeting range,targeting speed,sig rad,impulse speed,ab/mwd speed,agility,ammo types,nerf base dps,nerf all dps, nerf droines on mini ships,cpu,power grid,amount of guns and slots in general type of thread and left...
disappointed . Probably that's related to the fact that it's impossible to achieve balance without nerfing minmatar or buffing everything else.
This man speaks with wisdom and truth!
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Roscojameson
The Riot Formation
8
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:Masamune Dekoro wrote:Fade Azura wrote:The Fix ....
decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before
Maths, you're failing at it. Care to elaborate how i am failing at maths ohh great professor Masamune?? if you hit half as hard but twice as fast it would still be the same overall dps. DERP
Actually, because arties have such huge numbers both damage and activation time, gyrostabs have the hopefully intended effect(larger numbers =more with %'s). With your numbers gyrostabs effect them exactly half as much.
If you cannot see something as simple is that, why should anybody even give your ideas the light of day? |
Fade Azura
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
6
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:19:00 -
[39] - Quote
Roscojameson wrote:Fade Azura wrote:Masamune Dekoro wrote:Fade Azura wrote:The Fix ....
decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before
Maths, you're failing at it. Care to elaborate how i am failing at maths ohh great professor Masamune?? if you hit half as hard but twice as fast it would still be the same overall dps. DERP Actually, because arties have such huge numbers both damage and activation time, gyrostabs have the hopefully intended effect(larger numbers =more with %'s). With your numbers gyrostabs effect them exactly half as much. If you cannot see something as simple is that, why should anybody even give your ideas the light of day?
ahh ok so they would be recieving the same benefit as the dmg mods for hybrids do ... seems fair to me.
in your own words if you cannot see that why should anyone listen to YOU? DERPITY DOOOOOO
and besides i could care less what some forum trolls think ... my message only needs to get across to 1 party .. CCP .. and the stats do not lie ... Winmatar nerfs INCOMING |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2163
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:Masamune Dekoro wrote:Fade Azura wrote:The Fix ....
decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before Maths, you're failing at it. Care to elaborate how i am failing at maths ohh great professor Masamune?? if you hit half as hard but half again as fast it would still be the same overall dps. DERP. GǪexcept that that's not what you said.
You said reduce damage by half and increase damage delivery speed by one and a half GÇö end result: a quarter less damage output.
You're forgetting the basic workings of percentages: -¦n% Gëí +ù(1-¦n/100). So +50% -50% Gëí +ù1.5 +ù0.5 = +ù0.75 Gëí -25%. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
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Fade Azura
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
6
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
well if you wanna do the specific maths to get the right numbers to achieve the basic concept of my idea please do ... you get the general idea of where i am going. feel free to fix it for me in fact it would be much appreciated. in fact i am sure some mathematician wizard can come up with the perfect equation for what i am getting at. |
Roscojameson
The Riot Formation
8
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:Roscojameson wrote:Fade Azura wrote:Masamune Dekoro wrote:Fade Azura wrote:The Fix ....
decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before
Maths, you're failing at it. Care to elaborate how i am failing at maths ohh great professor Masamune?? if you hit half as hard but twice as fast it would still be the same overall dps. DERP Actually, because arties have such huge numbers both damage and activation time, gyrostabs have the hopefully intended effect(larger numbers =more with %'s). With your numbers gyrostabs effect them exactly half as much. If you cannot see something as simple is that, why should anybody even give your ideas the light of day? ahh ok so they would be recieving the same benefit as the dmg mods for hybrids do ... seems fair to me. in your own words if you cannot see that why should anyone listen to YOU? DERPITY DOOOOOO and besides i could care less what some forum trolls think ... my message only needs to get across to 1 party .. CCP .. and the stats do not lie ... Winmatar nerfs INCOMING
So your solution to balance is hit the FOTM with the nerf bat as hard as you can? Stop acting like a tard and at least pretend you're trying to achieve balance and not ruin weapon system after weapon system. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
57
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Roscojameson wrote:Fade Azura wrote:Masamune Dekoro wrote:Fade Azura wrote:The Fix ....
decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before
Maths, you're failing at it. Care to elaborate how i am failing at maths ohh great professor Masamune?? if you hit half as hard but twice as fast it would still be the same overall dps. DERP Actually, because arties have such huge numbers both damage and activation time, gyrostabs have the hopefully intended effect(larger numbers =more with %'s). With your numbers gyrostabs effect them exactly half as much. If you cannot see something as simple is that, why should anybody even give your ideas the light of day? You sir have a very poor understanding of how turret ROF works I think.
Having a higher cycle time does NOT mean that they get a bigger effect from rate of fire upgrades. Going from 10 seconds to 9 seconds is exactly the same as going from 1 second to 0.9 seconds, at least as far as DPS is concerned (ignoring damage modifiers)
A t2 damage mod gives what, 23% more DPS before stacking ?(some of it coming from ROF bonus, some from raw damage) It will give that exact same amount regardless of what the ROF and volley of the turrets in question are. A ship doing 1k DPS (10k volley 10 sec ROF) will do 1230 DPS with one damage mod on it, and a ship doing 1k DPS (5k volley 5 second ROF) will do 1230 DPS with 1 damage mod. It makes no difference from a DPS point of view. Artillery doesn't get more of an effect from damage mods by virtue of having a higher volley and longer ROF, stop being dense. |
Fade Azura
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
6
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Posted - 2011.12.26 22:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
you sound upset .... i am guessing its because you have never been with a woman yet and you are still living in your moms basement at the age of 40. and all you have left is your minmatar ships that give you some semblance of power and you want to ohhh so desperatly hold onto that ...
in other words ... U MAD BRO? |
Rixiu
North Star Networks The Kadeshi
43
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Posted - 2011.12.26 23:02:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'm confused. Why is this thread still alive? |
Roscojameson
The Riot Formation
7
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Posted - 2011.12.26 23:07:00 -
[46] - Quote
So your solution to balance is hit the FOTM with the nerf bat as hard as you can? Stop acting like a tard and at least pretend you're trying to achieve balance and not ruin weapon system after weapon system.[/quote]
you sound upset .... i am guessing its because you have never been with a woman yet and you are still living in your moms basement at the age of 40. and all you have left is your minmatar ships that give you some semblance of power and you want to ohhh so desperatly hold onto that ...
in other words ... U MAD BRO?[/quote]
Who's the troll now? Throwing memes at me and personally attacking medoesn't make you look smart or witty, it just shows your age.
To clarify what I said before, I'm asking why you feel nerfing something to uselessness is going to solve anything.
@Cambarus:yeah, I kinda screwed that one up. I should probably use paper next time I attempt quick math. |
Fedimart
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.26 23:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
To me this sounds like people complaining because they spent months training something they didn't research and now they're not happy. If you want to cry about how you spent all this time training Caldari and now you feel left out of PVP I don't feel sorry for you. Those are the same people who refuse to do the tutorials but complain about they don't know how to undock their ship. Eve isn't a game for people who don't want to or are incapable of thinking. If doing a little research before you set out on months or even years of training is a bit too challenging they're many console games that only require you to push buttons rapidly without causing any mental strain. |
Roscojameson
The Riot Formation
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.26 23:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
Fedimart wrote:To me this sounds like people complaining because they spent months training something they didn't research and now they're not happy. If you want to cry about how you spent all this time training Caldari and now you feel left out of PVP I don't feel sorry for you. Those are the same people who refuse to do the tutorials but complain about they don't know how to undock their ship. Eve isn't a game for people who don't want to or are incapable of thinking. If doing a little research before you set out on months or even years of training is a bit too challenging they're many console games that only require you to push buttons rapidly without causing any mental strain.
I don't think anybody complained about their race sucking at PvP. It's just bad design in a PvP game. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
88
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Posted - 2011.12.26 23:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
I am mystified as to how on thread after thread whiners come to the conclusion that 'Minmatar and Amarr are best at PVP", yet the only solutions offered? "Nerf Minmatar" five ways from Sunday. Everyone is just fine dandy leaving Amarr at the top of the heap for some reason?
Likely just a bunch of idiots who liked that previous unbalanced situation and are unhappy with the johnny-come-latelys to the fleet fight.
----Gallente ships do not need to be faster than Min ships. (So generous, offering 'best Agility' to Minmatar - because its sooo useful.)
Because slight advantages in speed within the ship-class pale in comparison to differences in speed between classes.
IE, Min BS are faster than Gal BS, but slower than Gal BC, C, HAC, AF, etc....and guess which classes are going to be doing the tackling.
Even in your fictitious 1 v 1 like-type Gal-Min matchup, Gal wins outright at close range, Min wins at intermediate range, seems balanced to me.
----On the Arty discussion, looks like Tippia pwnd you on basic math, but aside from that - it seems you are simply trying to roll back the previous arty fix. My guess is your Hulk got ganked or something, because that version of arty was worthless.
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Alara IonStorm
733
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Posted - 2011.12.27 00:02:00 -
[50] - Quote
A very good read.
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Fedimart
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2011.12.27 00:07:00 -
[51] - Quote
Also I think people are forgetting one thing. Yes in a this is a PVP oriented game but there are those that choose to avoid the PVP aspect of Eve. They run missions or mine and other than the occasional gank have no interest or would ever want to fit their ship or even care how it works for PVP. They are perfectly happy that even though their CNR would get owned in a PVP fight it grinds through missions with ease. Most Eve players understand that some ships are best suited for PVE while others are best for PVP. It's just a few that insist that they should be able to PVP in a ship that is suited for PVE and cry when they fail... Just train for the ship that is best for what you want to do. If you didn't do your research and trained for a Hulk when you wanted to do POS, bashing maybe you need to ask your corp mates for help on a skill plan. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
174
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Posted - 2011.12.27 01:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
I might not agree with noisr on many things, but he knows pretty damn well what he's saying.
and with that said,
/thread. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Baron vonDoom
Scorn.
13
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Posted - 2011.12.27 01:42:00 -
[53] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:Baron vonDoom wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Came here expecting turret balancing discussion but got stealth nerf minmatar long range guns,short range guns,range,tracking,targeting range,targeting speed,sig rad,impulse speed,ab/mwd speed,agility,ammo types,nerf base dps,nerf all dps, nerf droines on mini ships,cpu,power grid,amount of guns and slots in general type of thread and left...
disappointed . Probably that's related to the fact that it's impossible to achieve balance without nerfing minmatar or buffing everything else. This man speaks with wisdom and truth!
I do. However, regardless of how hard Minmatar needs to be nerfed (and they need really, really hard nerfing), don't regard my post as an agreement of your terrible op. You're a clueless idiot scrub. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
532
|
Posted - 2011.12.27 02:33:00 -
[54] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:The Fix ....
decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before but lose the huge alpha strike advantage. making hybrid and laser long range turret systems more appealing then they are now.(arties probably still be better or at worst equal)
Give hybrids and lasers selectable damage type ammo like projectiles .... there is no reason not to do this ... it would bring balance as everyone could use whatever type ammo they wanted.
Gallente ships have to be the fastest and speed increased on caldari turret boats ... no other solution for blasters ... Minmatar can keep the best agility. but gallente(and caldari hybrid boats) need to be the fastest because of how blasters work. otherwise the whole system fails like it is now.
Remove all penalties from all t2 ammo for everyone .... these penalties are stupid and cause people to not use it in favour of faction ammo more often then not .... the best ammo needs to be the best ammo period.
these 4 simple fixes would bring the game into balance IMO
Suggestions and feedback are welcome DISCUSS
My answer would be (was) long and this forum hates for whatever reason that you take longer than a few seconds to post...stupid forum.
To make it simple:
Top20 1 year ago
Top20 6 months ago
Top 20 3 months ago
Top 20 after release of the "awesome" hybrids rebalance
What do you think the top 20 will be in about 1 month? |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
532
|
Posted - 2011.12.27 02:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:No - whilst there is dire need for balancing, equalizing all turrets will take away flavour and render them undistinguishable from each other.
I already know about you by reading your post but in what I'm concerned, Id really like to be has much effective with my wallente crap and crap hybrids in large/small fleets (small I consider those about 10 peeps) has I am with Minmatar stuff that I HAD to train if I wanted to pvp with the best chances on my side.
So lets keep the flavor has it is. Indeed it's the most awesome example of diversity. |
Monica Sharezan
Azura Industries The World of Friends Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.12.27 03:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
Baron vonDoom wrote:Fade Azura wrote:Baron vonDoom wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Came here expecting turret balancing discussion but got stealth nerf minmatar long range guns,short range guns,range,tracking,targeting range,targeting speed,sig rad,impulse speed,ab/mwd speed,agility,ammo types,nerf base dps,nerf all dps, nerf droines on mini ships,cpu,power grid,amount of guns and slots in general type of thread and left...
disappointed . Probably that's related to the fact that it's impossible to achieve balance without nerfing minmatar or buffing everything else. This man speaks with wisdom and truth! I do. However, regardless of how hard Minmatar needs to be nerfed (and they need really, really hard nerfing), don't regard my post as an agreement of your terrible op. You're a clueless idiot scrub.
well 1 idiot scrub calling another person an idiot scrub doesnt hold much weight lol |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
25
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Posted - 2011.12.27 05:42:00 -
[57] - Quote
Monica Sharezan wrote:Baron vonDoom wrote:Fade Azura wrote:Baron vonDoom wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Came here expecting turret balancing discussion but got stealth nerf minmatar long range guns,short range guns,range,tracking,targeting range,targeting speed,sig rad,impulse speed,ab/mwd speed,agility,ammo types,nerf base dps,nerf all dps, nerf droines on mini ships,cpu,power grid,amount of guns and slots in general type of thread and left...
disappointed . Probably that's related to the fact that it's impossible to achieve balance without nerfing minmatar or buffing everything else. This man speaks with wisdom and truth! I do. However, regardless of how hard Minmatar needs to be nerfed (and they need really, really hard nerfing), don't regard my post as an agreement of your terrible op. You're a clueless idiot scrub. well 1 idiot scrub calling another person an idiot scrub doesnt hold much weight lol
And both of them being wrong...amusement never ends.
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Maxx Phobos
The Capsuleers
0
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Posted - 2012.01.01 12:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
didn't bother to read entire thread , just op's post.
I'm still a bit new to the game but I think the real faults in minmatar turrets being so over used is due to the versatility in dmg types.
More ways of fixing this would be to put them in the same boat as the rest by limiting them to 2 dmg types.
for instance replace emp with an antimatter equivalent boasting dmg but limiting it to kinetic & explosive dmg , Same for other projectile ammo types .. Remove all but kinetic & explosive dmg types like all other ammo/crystals get.
OR
Give all races the same dmg type selections to pick from.
Rails are still meh after months of playing with arties .. hoping ccp is still looking at this and plans to actually get them on par with everything else .. since many of us stuck millions of sp into hybrids when we first started playing not knowing they were terrible.
as for Blasters .. Why not add a mass reduction bonus to them so that using them would actually make the ship they are fitted to a bit lighter ? ..( similar-ish to Nano mods but not as strong ) , This bonus could be higher the larger the turret is.
Could even go a step further and add mass to other gun types leaving blasters as the lightest and rebalancing ships around this concept but thats probably asking a bit much.
just some thoughts.
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VR Highfive
Raptor Industries Art of War Alliance
57
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Posted - 2012.01.01 19:20:00 -
[59] - Quote
Great another balance thread. I have a good idea that will resolve these discussions once and for all:
Remove Gallente, Minmatar and Caldari races from the game altogether.
Everybody will fly Amarr ships and weapons. Tada... problem solved! No more balance issues. Why Amarr you may ask? .. meh, just because.
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Surge Roth
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2012.01.01 21:57:00 -
[60] - Quote
Tippia wrote:What turrets need is a mitigation factor similar to the Damage Reduction Factor / Damage Reduction Sensitivity pair we have in missiles.
We need some mechanism that allows us to apply a non-linear effectiveness curve on, say, tracking to make some turrets immensely better at tracking targets of the right size without actually becoming any better at tracking smaller (or, for extra fun, larger) targets as a result of that tracking change.
This would allow for a different avenue of differentiation and effectiveness scaling which opens up for a lot more role separation between different turret types. Right now, all we really have to play with is more/less DPS vs. Alpha; more/less Optimal vs. Falloff. Tracking is certainly an on-the-paper differentiator, but in order for larger turrets not to be too effective against small targets, that differentiator has to be left small, to the point where you gain far better tracking benefits by using longer range. Something more is needed to let that attribute stand out more without causing unwanted side-effects.
If they ever did something like this they would have to compensate larger ships by giving them more high slots for more guns and what have you so they can fit smaller guns without sacrificing effectiveness against same sized ships. It's absolutely ******** that a small gun can 'take up the same space' as a large gun on a ship. It's also dumb that smaller targets can indefinitely out run larger guns. In other games where this is possible the solution would be to turn your guns in the other direction and fire when the target finally got in its sights. Missiles are already broken as is when it comes to hitting smaller targets. I don't want the same for turrets. What they got is already ****. |
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