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Lothar Mandrake
Min Wei Corporation
22
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Posted - 2017.01.09 00:33:33 -
[1] - Quote
I just sat in Perimeter to watch The Horde attack the Perimeter V Fortizar. I was also in M-E008 (think I spelled that right) for the Keepstar attack more than a few weeks ago.
Both were pathetically messed up defensively. The Perimeter V Fortizar was pumping out missiles with practically no effect. Why even bother putting missiles on structures? CCP seems obsessed with making it a ship vs ship fight everywhere. In a perfect cluster that would be fine, but not every corp can go toe to toe with others. Some falsely believe their citadel and structure defenses will help keep them safe. No offense, but the damn things should fight better than they do right now.
If The Horde continues it's assault on Perimeter V it will be an easy kill for them. It won't even be any fun to watch, it will be a slaughter. Everyone stay home and see the clips on You Tube. it's not worth your time to see it in person.
Last week, I watched a guy alone in a Raitaru who with missiles flying couldn't fight off 2 battleships. It was so pathetic to see the impotence of ASML-LD missiles in action. My stomach turned at the sight.
How about it CCP? I would love to hear something positive from you on this subject.
Side Notes:
- I am neutral regarding the Perimeter fight. I am not in any way associated with either side. That being said, it was beautiful to watch The Horde's waves of Hurricane fighters in action while I sat cloaked at 50-150km. Very impressive display of a corp working together. That is one of the remaining few pleasures of EVE because CCP keeps changing most things for the worse (except the Orca, still pissed about The Hulk changes). Don't even get me started on the new crap Skill List.
- Also Kudos to CCP's graphics and audio teams for making it an incredible thing to watch and hear on my 55" Ultra 4K monitor and Bose Wave audio. You guys in graphics and audio don't get anywhere near the credit you deserve. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3037
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Posted - 2017.01.09 00:41:56 -
[2] - Quote
Can't imagine what point you think you're making.
You basically just described citadel defense working exactly as intended, which is to say that it is a force multiplier, and not a replacement for actually showing up to defend your assets.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels
69
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Posted - 2017.01.09 00:43:15 -
[3] - Quote
Not familiar with what their performance is but I would have assumed they wete able to defend themselves. I thought you needed dreadnoughts to destroy stuff like that since they're designed to blow up structures. Don't see a good reason why 2 battleships can take one.
Do citadels get bonuses per level like ships do? Maybe that would help if you would try to suggest to make them stronger. Never actually looked up their stats. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
580
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Posted - 2017.01.09 00:45:04 -
[4] - Quote
The Citadels aren't there to provide dps. The defending fleet is supposed to do that. The Citadel is there to support the defending fleet. CCP has already stated, that the Citadel is not supposed to be able to defend on it's own.
But yeah, those 250km scrams ain't OP enough :D
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8685
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:04:39 -
[5] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Can't imagine what point you think you're making.
You basically just described citadel defense working exactly as intended, which is to say that it is a force multiplier, and not a replacement for actually showing up to defend your assets.
/thread
One of the most fundamental 'rules' of EVE is, if you can't protect what you have, you don't deserve it and are going to lose it.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Lothar Mandrake
Min Wei Corporation
23
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Can't imagine what point you think you're making.
You basically just described citadel defense working exactly as intended, which is to say that it is a force multiplier, and not a replacement for actually showing up to defend your assets.
Let me clarify. I'm not making a point. I am trying to get others to weigh in.
Other than the attackers movements just like a flock of birds (nice job ladies and gents), the whole thing was BORING! If that's CCP's objective, Congrats! They made citadel fights BORING! Even the attackers were "Ho Hum" about it during and after the fight. The fight (sorry, there was no real fight, that requires 2 sides).....I mean the attack itself was uninteresting.
Something as BIG as a structure or citadel should be able to handle the 1st hundred or so attackers. Defenders in ships should take out the rest.
It's sad when NPC mining fleets have better hit points than a citadel! |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3040
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:17:21 -
[7] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Can't imagine what point you think you're making.
You basically just described citadel defense working exactly as intended, which is to say that it is a force multiplier, and not a replacement for actually showing up to defend your assets. Let me clarify. I'm not making a point. I am trying to get others to weigh in. Other than the attackers movements just like a flock of birds (nice job ladies and gents), the whole thing was BORING! If that's CCP's objective, Congrats! They made citadel fights BORING! Even the attackers were "Ho Hum" about it during and after the fight. The fight (sorry, there was no real fight, that requires 2 sides).....I mean the attack itself was uninteresting. Something as BIG as a structure or citadel should be able to handle the 1st hundred or so attackers. Defenders in ships should take out the rest. It's sad when NPC mining fleets have better hit points than a citadel!
So basically what you're saying is that nobody showed up to defend it, and this is somehow the fault of the citadel?
And, not to **** in your cheerios or anything, but re: the coordinate ballet-like motion of the attackers?
Yeah, they all just hit approach on one guy.
It's called "anchoring".
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Lothar Mandrake
Min Wei Corporation
23
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:25:23 -
[8] - Quote
When one Raitaru can't take out a battleship with ASML-LD missiles, there is a HUGE problem with the mechanic of structure defenses in general. Just say it like it is, "Save Your ISK and don't buy missile launchers, they won't do anything anyway". |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
581
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:27:53 -
[9] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:Something as BIG as a structure or citadel should be able to handle the 1st hundred or so attackers. Defenders in ships should take out the rest. Yeah, needing 100+ people to take down a single citadel sounds balanced. Especially, given how easy they are to set up and how they are spammed across New Eden.
And no one is attacking you, we are just echoing what CCP have stated in the initial dev blogs. The Citadels where never meant to defend itself on its own. Instead, they are extremely good support to the defending fleet, if it actually shows up.
It is not CCPs fault, that people put out citadels without the means to defend it, thus resulting in a boring fight. Luckily people only have to sit and bash for 30min. So it's really not that bad.
If you want interesting fights, then tell people to go attack Citadels people actually want to defend.
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Wanda Fayne
415
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:29:50 -
[10] - Quote
Okay let's put this in perspective: Battle Report
your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic
-Lan Wang-
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Locator Agents cease to function on Offline Players:
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8685
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:31:36 -
[11] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote: Something as BIG as a structure or citadel should be able to handle the 1st hundred or so attackers. Defenders in ships should take out the rest.
Why? A citadel is meant to be a corp-level asset, especially a Fortizar. Tell me why there should be no requirement for that corp to defend it at any stage of an attack if they don't want to lose it.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
582
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:38:02 -
[12] - Quote
In addition, highsec Citadels are already a PITA to take down. Not only do you have to wait for that 30min window to actually apply damage to it, you also need to get through 2 timers between every defence layer, and asset safety makes it a very unattractive grind compared to the time investment needed.
So let's not make it even safer than it already is, by additionally requiring a fleet of 100+ to even consider taking down a Citadel. |
Lothar Mandrake
Min Wei Corporation
23
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:42:36 -
[13] - Quote
Now you're bringing defenders into it which defeats the whole point. I would like to see the same Battle Report with only the structure defense kills and no pilots.
I should put up a citadel and hire The Horde to kill it. I'll only use citadel defenses to fight back. That way I can show you in print what I mean. Keep it focused. I'm trying to show the issues with the ASML's very limited abilities. That mechanic needs a shot of Viagra. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20020
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:50:12 -
[14] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:Now you're bringing defenders into it which defeats the whole point. no that is the point.
these things are conflict drivers first, force multipliers second, but even as force multipliers they will burn if undefended.
Horde have 11774 as of writing , damn straight its an easy kill.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Lothar Mandrake
Min Wei Corporation
23
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:51:01 -
[15] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:In addition, highsec Citadels are already a PITA to take down. Not only do you have to wait for that 30min window to actually apply damage to it, you also need to get through 2 timers between every defence layer, and asset safety makes it a very unattractive grind compared to the time investment needed.
So let's not make it even safer than it already is, by additionally requiring a fleet of 100+ to even consider taking down a Citadel.
I'm not thrilled with the timers idea period. This game promotes itself on realism. Citadel defenses should be 100 times greater than they are (variable based on structure size). Timers should not exist. Who takes a time out if this was real? If you noticed, I made a hit against structure defense. I'm not just advocating more realistic defense but realistic destruction of structures too.
I'm not a head bobbing repeater of CCP documentation. I question everything that takes the game away from realism. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20020
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:55:36 -
[16] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:This game promotes itself on realism. sure thing , internet spaceships , realism , what?
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
582
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:57:11 -
[17] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:I question everything that takes the game away from realism. Realism in a spaceship game featuring immortal clones? Yeah... let's aim for realism :D
The point by the above is, that it's a bad argument to balance something cause "realism". |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3041
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:58:30 -
[18] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:Now you're bringing defenders into it which defeats the whole point. I would like to see the same Battle Report with only the structure defense kills and no pilots. I should put up a citadel and hire The Horde to kill it. I'll only use citadel defenses to fight back. That way I can show you in print what I mean. Keep it focused. I'm trying to show the issues with the ASML's very limited abilities. That mechanic needs a shot of Viagra.
Do you have any first-hand experience with citadel combat, citadel launchers, or hell, any aspect of PvP other than losing freighters to wardecs and bizarre lowsec carriers to PL?
Because nobody cares about the opinions you've formed based on some casual observations you didn't really understand.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Lothar Mandrake
Min Wei Corporation
23
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Posted - 2017.01.09 01:59:35 -
[19] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Lothar Mandrake wrote:Now you're bringing defenders into it which defeats the whole point. no that is the point. these things are conflict drivers first, force multipliers second, but even as force multipliers they will burn if undefended. Horde have 11774 as of writing , damn straight its an easy kill.
You're stating the way things are, not the way they should be. I want your perspective on how it should be. Your opinion is much more important to me and everyone else. |
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
141
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Posted - 2017.01.09 02:03:05 -
[20] - Quote
You're getting the answers you're asking for from several people so far. |
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
582
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Posted - 2017.01.09 02:10:18 -
[21] - Quote
From personal experience, then I can at least say, that a Citadel can deter 3 Drakes + Scimi on its own.
Turns out, Drakes are crap at doing anything else than farming WHs :D |
Wanda Fayne
417
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Posted - 2017.01.09 02:19:12 -
[22] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:Now you're bringing defenders into it which defeats the whole point. I would like to see the same Battle Report with only the structure defense kills and no pilots. I should put up a citadel and hire The Horde to kill it. I'll only use citadel defenses to fight back. That way I can show you in print what I mean. Keep it focused. I'm trying to show the issues with the ASML's very limited abilities. That mechanic needs a shot of Viagra.
I referred to your example. The defenders gave better than they got, and there were only 12 (plus someone in the citadel). PH had almost 300.
As to your other example, M-OEE8, I stopped counting at 600 kills by JUST the keepstar, on only the last day. I suspect that citadel killed thousands. Structures in highsec are weaker (by design) by not having access to area-of-affect weapons. What is really the balance issue?
your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic
-Lan Wang-
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Locator Agents cease to function on Offline Players:
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Lothar Mandrake
Min Wei Corporation
23
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Posted - 2017.01.09 02:23:47 -
[23] - Quote
Cien Banchiere wrote:You're getting the answers you're asking for from several people so far.
Agreed. Good discussion people. Whatever CCP chooses to do is what will happen. My last words.....
If something doesn't change to keep new "paying" members none of this will matter anyway. Last May, I brought in 11 "paying" members and 9 are gone due to them saying the "game sucks but the graphics are great", "leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own". New money is the only thing that will keep this game alive.
None of this is my opinion, it's new people trying out the game and choosing to purchase Gameplay. I will continue to try to attract new paying players. I believe EVE is worth it. Yes, I could buy Plex with ISK too, I choose to pay real money and will continue paying real money until they kick me out, LOL! CCP can't pay their salaries and bills with ISK so I will support them with all my family's accounts (in-laws included). |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
582
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Posted - 2017.01.09 02:27:48 -
[24] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:"leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own". You can do stuff solo. Been playing solo most of my time in EvE since 2012, only started to play with friends recently.
But people need to stop thinking they will be able to take space, defend structures or take on alliances with several thousand members on their own.
With that said, I still encourage people to just play in corps especially in the beginning.
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Wanda Fayne
417
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Posted - 2017.01.09 02:39:11 -
[25] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:Cien Banchiere wrote:You're getting the answers you're asking for from several people so far. Agreed. Good discussion people. Whatever CCP chooses to do is what will happen. My last words..... If something doesn't change to keep new "paying" members none of this will matter anyway. Last May, I brought in 11 "paying" members and 9 are gone due to them saying the "game sucks but the graphics are great", "leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own". New money is the only thing that will keep this game alive. None of this is my opinion, it's new people trying out the game and choosing to purchase Gameplay. I will continue to try to attract new paying players. I believe EVE is worth it. Yes, I could buy Plex with ISK too, I choose to pay real money and will continue paying real money until they kick me out, LOL! CCP can't pay their salaries and bills with ISK so I will support them with all my family's accounts (in-laws included).
PH numbers are up +200 this week... coincidence
your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic
-Lan Wang-
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Locator Agents cease to function on Offline Players:
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1861
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Posted - 2017.01.09 02:51:03 -
[26] - Quote
Solo pilot here. I am surviving JUST FINE.
Surviving does not mean 'build a giant structure you can't defend'. Surviving for a solo player means being able to adapt to circumstances, being agile enough to adapt quickly and being opportunistic as hell.
Building a giant Citadel is not how one survives as a solo player. Scale down to something more manageable, why don't you?
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
641
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Posted - 2017.01.09 03:50:31 -
[27] - Quote
citadels are working as intended and I AGREE.
you don't need a citadel if you are solo. why would anybody want such PITA in his life.
Just Add Water
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8168
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Posted - 2017.01.09 04:00:42 -
[28] - Quote
I have seen POSes (remember those?) described as "Carebear death stars" and festooned with all kinds of weaponry so do I take it that citadels are harder to defend?
Were it up to meGäó I would complement citadel defense (hurr durr this is an MMO HTFU) with......
a herring!
OK just kidding.
How about giving citadels an agent that dols out rewards for defenders. Dock in the citadel, get a mission from an agent that says "attack some of these knucklheads attacking my station so I don't have to find a new apartment" and for a while hammer away. No need to deal with clunky wardec crap ...
ANYBODY CAN PLAY
(oh oh... it's not about anybody having PVP when they want it, it never is, mostly in these forums...... mostly)
But that's like, just my opinion anyway. I don't have the means for a citadel, so I'm out of my league.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1308
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Posted - 2017.01.09 06:56:21 -
[29] - Quote
Lothar Mandrake wrote:"leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own".
Weren't you the one talking realism earlier? Like that totally realistic one man corporation with a giant multi-kilometer production facility that can survive the onslaught of an army? Wait, that's not realistic at all....
But it has been said already, realism is not a factor in a game about spaceships with submarine physics and immortal pilots. You are talking balance now. But look at it this way: If a citadel on its own could take on a hundred guys if undefended, how many people would you need to bring to take it down if it was actually defended? What kind of balance would that be? You cannot make them stronger for small groups without making them stronger for large groups as well, so in the end, the game will still be in favor of the large groups.
Having strong fortifications in the strategic sense like we had in the middle ages where 20 dudes in a stronghold were able to defend against a thousand dudes outside could work, if we could actually siege them, as in blockade people from getting in and out until they starve to death. But we cannot do that, so a strong fortress like that would only break the game.
POSes are not able to do what you are asking either, by the way. Even an undefended deathstar could easily be taken down by a couple dozen guys by sniping the weapons first. It's merely annoying, time consuming and not very entertaining, but it's not difficult.
I think Citadels and Engineering Complexes are in a good place. If anything, I feel that the Astrohouses are a bit too cheap, and I also think that it's not optimal that the repair timer runs at normal speed in TiDi. I get why it does, though, and I currently see no solution to the problem.
On the point of why anyone should bother: At some point, POSes and Outposts will go away, so Citadels and ECs will be the only option. In Highsec, you can make do with NPC stations if you want, but in Sov Null there aren't any. People will need to have them, and that's why they bother - simple as that.
Citadels in Highsec on the other hand are a luxury. If you can't afford it - tough luck.
If you like to play solo, or in very small groups, that's fine and completely viable. But then owning a big corporate structure may not be for you. You can of course still use them, by either using the ones that are publicly accessible or making friends with larger groups that would allow you to use theirs. Or, if you have the funds you can just hire mercenaries to defend one you built yourself. Between the 24 hour war dec timer, reinforcement cycles and vulnerability windows, you have more than enough time and opportunity to organize that. If you are not even able or willing to do that, you really should not have one. You cannot just invest a couple billion in a giant "shoot me" sign and expect it to automagically defend itself against a proper assault. |
Black Locust
Black Flag CommonWealth Fidelas Constans
18
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Posted - 2017.01.09 08:58:56 -
[30] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Solo pilot here. I am surviving JUST FINE.
Surviving does not mean 'build a giant structure you can't defend'. Surviving for a solo player means being able to adapt to circumstances, being agile enough to adapt quickly and being opportunistic as hell.
^ This
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