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Rain6637
NulzSec
34749
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Posted - 2017.01.10 04:10:39 -
[1] - Quote
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:and otherwise you can open a support ticket to let them know directly. Haha, support told me to write it in the forums, no joke.^^ wow that is ****** up.
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34749
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Posted - 2017.01.10 04:14:25 -
[2] - Quote
if that's true they sent you here knowing how you'd be treated.
It's normally against the rules to release support correspondence but I would be very interested to know who handled your support ticket and what was said.
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Rain6637
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Posted - 2017.01.10 04:45:04 -
[3] - Quote
you could be proven wrong with hours logged in and whether they played for 40 days.
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34749
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Posted - 2017.01.10 04:54:13 -
[4] - Quote
Feedback is normally very hard to get from people who are on their way out. If this is real, the feedback is more valid than you think. Personally I think there's an ethical responsibility when the game's developers benefit from scams, especially ones involving PLEX purchases. I think alphas or even true first-time players should receive the same protection as character bazaar sales.
Something like prohibiting scams against characters less than six months old.
Yes this would include veterans who have characters younger than six months, but it would be for the sake of those younger characters who are truly new. And in the case of blanket scams, if a character messages a scammer asking for their ISK back, it better be given back.
While it's true that scamming has been a part of EVE, that doesn't mean it always has to be. It's not balanced with game mechanics, so not only is it outside the scope of game design, there's also a real money benefit from PLEX sales.
Scamming should end and EVE would be a better game environment.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34749
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Posted - 2017.01.10 05:55:48 -
[5] - Quote
No it's still me. I think the social engineering aspect of what's basically nigerian email scams shouldn't be condoned just because it's in a video game. I see a lot of parallels between third party gambling and ISK scams. They entice a person with promises of more ISK.
When you message someone and communicate directly, it's outside of the game mechanics. I also think scams are on a more serious level than playing a video game and cause moral injury.
There is a very big difference between a margin scam involving a market item and messaging a player to basically lie to them. I think if it's something you couldn't accomplish without written chat, it shouldn't be allowed as part of the game.
We might have to disagree.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34751
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Posted - 2017.01.10 06:59:54 -
[6] - Quote
Thylarctos Sturzka wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Something like prohibiting scams against characters less than six months old. How? Leaving aside whether it would be a good idea to have that kind of protection, how would you do it? The same way character bazaar scams are prohibited and enforced. Tell people don't do it.
Margin scams where overpriced buy orders fail, those are okay. Someone did the math and thought they'd get away with something clever. It uses game mechanics.
Docking rights games should be prohibited against characters younger than six months, or perhaps 1 year. So if the hauler character messages the contract owner, they should get their ISK back and have the option of submitting a ticket.
Social engineering scams based in chat text should be prohibited altogether. Those prey on the basic trust people have in others.
Between fifteen new players and one scammer who causes them to leave, I would rather keep the new players and ban the scammer (and all their accounts), perhaps after two offenses. They are one leaky hole in the bucket that hemorrhages players. It is also the type of policy change that over time will improve the reputation that is passed by word of mouth.
You advertise large fleet fights. Infiltrating organizations and taking their stuff. You don't advertise tricking new players who don't know what's going on because it's wrong.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34751
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Posted - 2017.01.10 07:06:44 -
[7] - Quote
Arkady Romanov wrote:Rain6637 wrote: moral injury.
:laffo: I'd argue that your ~art~ caused more "moral injury" to good taste than Scooter McCabe ever has to another player by scamming. Not that Scooter has ever scammed anyone. *cough* :laffo:
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 09:18:14 -
[8] - Quote
Thylarctos Sturzka wrote:Rain6637 wrote: [quote]Margin scams where overpriced buy orders fail, those are okay. Someone did the math and thought they'd get away with something clever. It uses game mechanics.
I completely disagree. A player should be able to look at the details of a public contract or market order and expect that the advertised exchange will happen if they accept the order/contract. I would agree with you if there was a way to separate the Margin Trading skill from this scam, but there isn't. You could check to see if market orders can be filled and then cancel them, but even that can be manipulated after the corresponding sell order for the scam.
Thylarctos Sturzka wrote: Making a certain class of players immune to scams by decree is not practical, and not a good idea anyway. Either outright ban the public advertising of various scams, or accept that anyone who falls for one learns an expensive lesson as a result of their own greed. Trying to have a middle ground of isk-doubling scams are allowed, hauling scams are allowed, quitting the game sale scams are allowed, but if it's a newer player that falls for it you have to give them back their money, that's silly.
ISK doubling scammers should be required to put their scam in contracts. The scams where it's you typing promises to someone, that's just lying. It's not gameplay, it's just a chat window inside the game. The point of the character age requirement is giving them fair time to find out about scams or be warned.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 09:30:16 -
[9] - Quote
I don't have the motivation to help you out and explain why your logic is bad.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 09:33:03 -
[10] - Quote
Going negative could work, but you could also dispose of the character.
There are cases like courier contracts where you can't tell whether the value of the item is worthwhile, or whether you can dock at the destination. Did you see the explanation about the workaround to docking rights? Get someone with docking rights to put the items in the citadel, as if it's impossible to run your own one-person citadel.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 09:34:48 -
[11] - Quote
No I don't have the energy to unravel your ball of fallacies with a helping of analogies on top.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 10:00:31 -
[12] - Quote
Thylarctos Sturzka wrote:Quote:There are cases like courier contracts where you can't tell whether the value of the item is worthwhile, or whether you can dock at the destination. Did you see the explanation about the workaround to docking rights? Get someone with docking rights to put the items in the citadel, as if it's impossible to run your own one-person citadel. My assumption is that the issuers of the scam contracts revoke docking rights from everyone, to prevent them using a friend/alt to deliver it. yeah basically. so the support ticket response doesn't work.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 10:35:13 -
[13] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:I'd like to highlight a rather important bit about the courier contract scam again: http://imgur.com/a/rAEL2 You have been warned. No fix required. That's a valid point. Do you think there is a reason why citadels shouldn't have a delivery bin?
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 10:52:03 -
[14] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Neuntausend wrote:I'd like to highlight a rather important bit about the courier contract scam again: http://imgur.com/a/rAEL2 You have been warned. No fix required. That's a valid point. Do you think there is a reason why citadels shouldn't have a delivery bin? Certainly not. A delivery bin should be optional, though. It would need to be a choice you can't change quickly, so you can't bait and switch with it, and the contractor could then make an educated choice about delivering things to a citadel that doesn't have one, like they can now for citadels in general. permanent, though. Is there a reason other than scamming why citadels shouldn't have a delivery bin
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 11:20:43 -
[15] - Quote
uh huh.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 11:35:20 -
[16] - Quote
nice edit.
Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Neuntausend wrote:I'd like to highlight a rather important bit about the courier contract scam again: http://imgur.com/a/rAEL2 You have been warned. No fix required. That's a valid point. Do you think there is a reason why citadels shouldn't have a delivery bin? Certainly not. A delivery bin should be optional, though. It would need to be a choice you can't change quickly, so you can't bait and switch with it, and the contractor could then make an educated choice about delivering things to a citadel that doesn't have one, like they can now for citadels in general. permanent, though. Is there a reason other than scamming why citadels shouldn't have a delivery bin No. And? Scamming is an integral part of what makes Eve.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 12:11:18 -
[17] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Yebo Lakatosh wrote:There are too few games that have this. Mostly forgotten ones with a small percentage of the local player population. Yup. And usually they start dying when they grow soft. UO: Rennaissance, anyone? Maybe there's a reason why the games that have scamming are too few and mostly forgotten
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 12:23:19 -
[18] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Yebo Lakatosh wrote:There are too few games that have this. Mostly forgotten ones with a small percentage of the local player population. Yup. And usually they start dying when they grow soft. UO: Rennaissance, anyone? Maybe there's a reason why the games that have scamming are too few and mostly forgotten Yup. People started crying, devs caved in, made the games "fair" and "balanced". They became boring and people left. You're doing it again
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 12:26:38 -
[19] - Quote
So could your gameplay survive without scamming?
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 12:37:14 -
[20] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:So could your gameplay survive without scamming? Probably. It would be less interesting, though. Can yours survive with scamming? I don't scam and I think I'm just here because I like posting on forums.
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 12:48:19 -
[21] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:So could your gameplay survive without scamming? Probably. It would be less interesting, though. Can yours survive with scamming? I don't scam and I think I'm just here because I like posting on forums. Were you trying to get anywhere with that question, then? yeah I wanted to see just how vile a player you were willing to claim to be.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 12:54:15 -
[22] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:So could your gameplay survive without scamming? Probably. It would be less interesting, though. Can yours survive with scamming? The OP did not... yyyeahp. And my question is in broad terms, if citadel courier scams weren't allowed, do you think EVE would see a net gain or loss of players as a result.
OP experienced and tried a lot of different things, and just because you think something is harmless doesn't mean other people feel the same way. I figure the ratio of scammers to marks is pretty skewed to be mark-heavy. Purely for subscription / player retention purposes, which group should you keep?
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
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34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 13:08:36 -
[23] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote: I'm not that vile - where did you get that idea? I tried scamming, and it turned out I'm too soft-hearted for it, even though I know it's just a game. Yeah, alright I took a couple hundred mil here and there through recruitment scams - the victims could afford it anyway. I ransomed a couple guys in lowsec in the olden days, I extorted the occasional billion using highsec wars, but I'm nowhere even close to the likes of Scooter McCabe. I still love the fact that it is possible in Eve, and I like the idea that every other player could try to f\\k me over at any time.
It's not all the same. As an example alternative, you can make a courier contract and then shoot the courier in space. This isn't a matter of making EVE a child's playpen. It's a matter of cleaning up the ways you can betray players.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
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34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 13:11:58 -
[24] - Quote
lol
shutting the doors to your citadel before the courier arrives is no better than a trade window scam.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
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Posted - 2017.01.10 13:28:21 -
[25] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:
so in this particular case, how could you control the newbro not to be scammed?
the scammer could not control that the people that would accept his contract to be more than 6 mo. only.
if you insist on this, we still gonna see quiting thread like this only by different OP.
delivery bin sounds good.
Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:It's not all the same. As an example alternative, you can make a courier contract and then shoot the courier in space. This isn't a matter of making EVE a child's playpen. It's a matter of cleaning up the ways you can betray players. That is understood. I don't understand why. If you make a contract, and then shoot the courier, then you betray them. If you make a contract, and then shut the doors and prevent him from completing the contract, then you betray them. They are just different means to the same end. I don't see why one method is apparently ok with you, and the other isn't. Rise said something about players staying in the game longer if they were shot within their first three months. Pretty sure you can't say the same about players who were scammed within their first 40 days.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34754
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Posted - 2017.01.10 13:55:16 -
[26] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Rise said something about players staying in the game longer if they were shot within their first three months. Pretty sure you can't say the same about players who were scammed within their first 40 days. Scams may hurt player retention, they may help it, or they may not do anything for it at all. I suppose that will have to stay open to speculation. [a bunch of rhetoric on a bad claim] No it doesn't have to stay open to speculation. This thread is an example of how the citadel courier scam hurts retention. The scam citadel owner can find other more engaging ways to get players' ISK.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34755
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Posted - 2017.01.10 13:58:19 -
[27] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Confirming Rift is a panda bear riding, cleavage showing, hello kitty sympathizing, hand holding, rail riding grindy tween fest. I am now un-surprised you did not cut it in EvE. There isn't enough HTFU to adequately smother this thread you seem to know a lot about Rift
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34756
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Posted - 2017.01.10 14:34:58 -
[28] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Case in point: Can flipping. In the olden days, nasty evildoers would steal from a miners jet can to coerce them into a CONCORD-legal engagement. Then barges got bigger cargo holds, and the nasty evildoers had to find a new way. They opted to just suicide gank them, with no chance to fight back. Is that any better?
Case in point: Ganking. In the olden days, people would often use artillery tempests to gank freighters. They would wait on the gate, the freighter would decloak maybe 20km off of them, they'd fire, die and get insurance for their battleships. Then the insurance was taken away for suicide ganks and this was not worthwhile anymore. So people had to find a new method. They found catalysts to work, but catalysts need to be in range. This takes a while, so the freighter would have to be held in place. How do people do that? They bump the freighter around. For 5 minutes, 10 minutes, half an hour? Is that any better?
I want people to look at this part very closely because this poster is being very liberal with the truth. That's what you get for engaging with it at length
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34758
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Posted - 2017.01.10 16:18:16 -
[29] - Quote
I'm going to online my personal citadel in the buttcrack of nowhere and do courier scams hur durr keep the game the way it is because muh gameplay
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34787
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Posted - 2017.01.11 13:52:15 -
[30] - Quote
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:^^ that right there.
It's completely understandable that new players have no clue on what EVE actually is and how it's played, it's just very different from other games. It's completely fine to end up not liking (bits of) EVE and to move on. What I don't understand is how egocentric one must be to play a new game, disagree with its premise and then ask for that game to be changed so you WILL like it. Disagreeing on specific details is understandable, disagreeing with the basics of the game and asking for it to be changed is silly.
EVE is a PVP sandbox that has spaceships in it, if you JUST want spaceships and don't like the PVP sandbox thingy then go play another game that suits you more. bbbbrrruh the citadel docking game is damn near an exploit and people don't like that in games.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34796
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Posted - 2017.01.12 16:28:48 -
[31] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: If you are playing, and if you aren't why are you posting.
I wouldn't expect you to understand a non-upvote message board model.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
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34796
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Posted - 2017.01.12 16:43:16 -
[32] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: If you are playing, and if you aren't why are you posting.
I wouldn't expect you to understand a non-upvote message board model. What exactly does that have to do with anything? I made mo mention of message boards. QED
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
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34796
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Posted - 2017.01.12 17:38:09 -
[33] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: If you are playing, and if you aren't why are you posting.
I wouldn't expect you to understand a non-upvote message board model. What exactly does that have to do with anything? I made mo mention of message boards. QED I get it, you're really bored today. yeah!
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