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Arkady Romanov
Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation
651
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 06:59:02 -
[61] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: moral injury.
:laffo:
I'd argue that your ~art~ caused more "moral injury" to good taste than Scooter McCabe ever has to another player by scamming.
Not that Scooter has ever scammed anyone. *cough*
Whole Squid: Get Inked.
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34751
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 06:59:54 -
[62] - Quote
Thylarctos Sturzka wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Something like prohibiting scams against characters less than six months old. How? Leaving aside whether it would be a good idea to have that kind of protection, how would you do it? The same way character bazaar scams are prohibited and enforced. Tell people don't do it.
Margin scams where overpriced buy orders fail, those are okay. Someone did the math and thought they'd get away with something clever. It uses game mechanics.
Docking rights games should be prohibited against characters younger than six months, or perhaps 1 year. So if the hauler character messages the contract owner, they should get their ISK back and have the option of submitting a ticket.
Social engineering scams based in chat text should be prohibited altogether. Those prey on the basic trust people have in others.
Between fifteen new players and one scammer who causes them to leave, I would rather keep the new players and ban the scammer (and all their accounts), perhaps after two offenses. They are one leaky hole in the bucket that hemorrhages players. It is also the type of policy change that over time will improve the reputation that is passed by word of mouth.
You advertise large fleet fights. Infiltrating organizations and taking their stuff. You don't advertise tricking new players who don't know what's going on because it's wrong.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
34751
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 07:06:44 -
[63] - Quote
Arkady Romanov wrote:Rain6637 wrote: moral injury.
:laffo: I'd argue that your ~art~ caused more "moral injury" to good taste than Scooter McCabe ever has to another player by scamming. Not that Scooter has ever scammed anyone. *cough* :laffo:
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Thylarctos Sturzka
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 08:42:47 -
[64] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: The same way character bazaar scams are prohibited and enforced. Tell people don't do it.
That's feasible if you simply say scams aren't allowed. That's not feasible if you say these people can be scammed and these ones can't.
Unless you want to introduce a system for players to open tickets and say 'I bought a publicly available deal, but now realise I shouldn't have, I need ccp to intervene and give me back my isk'.
Quote:Margin scams where overpriced buy orders fail, those are okay. Someone did the math and thought they'd get away with something clever. It uses game mechanics.
I completely disagree. A player should be able to look at the details of a public contract or market order and expect that the advertised exchange will happen if they accept the order/contract.
Quote:Docking rights games should be prohibited against characters younger than six months, or perhaps 1 year. So if the hauler character messages the contract owner, they should get their ISK back and have the option of submitting a ticket.
Social engineering scams based in chat text should be prohibited altogether. Those prey on the basic trust people have in others.
Between fifteen new players and one scammer who causes them to leave, I would rather keep the new players and ban the scammer (and all their accounts), perhaps after two offenses. They are one leaky hole in the bucket that hemorrhages players. It is also the type of policy change that over time will improve the reputation that is passed by word of mouth.
You advertise large fleet fights. Infiltrating organizations and taking their stuff. You don't advertise tricking new players who don't know what's going on because it's wrong.
I'd prefer to lose the scammers, too. But in most cases, the victims are only victims because they were greedy. Because they were stupid. You give isk to someone expecting them to give you back double, you accept an item exchange contract because you think you're ripping off the other person, I've got very little sympathy. And once you start banning scams, you get the issue of how you draw the line between scam and simply overpriced item. You get the issue of all the extra effort required to police it. And the only benefit is you let greedy people make a costly mistake and have it not count, if they are new. Which I don't see as much of a benefit. Do you do the same for other expensive new player mistakes? Earn first 25 million isk, spend 22 million on a new cruiser, promptly lose it by jumping into low for the first time and straight into a gatecamp? I've got more sympathy for those players than I do for someone who paid 22 million for a vexor hull because they thought they were getting a cheap vexor navy issue.
Making a certain class of players immune to scams by decree is not practical, and not a good idea anyway. Either outright ban the public advertising of various scams, or accept that anyone who falls for one learns an expensive lesson as a result of their own greed. Trying to have a middle ground of isk-doubling scams are allowed, hauling scams are allowed, quitting the game sale scams are allowed, but if it's a newer player that falls for it you have to give them back their money, that's silly.
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Roggo II Seuchenvogel
Roggos GmbH
8
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Posted - 2017.01.10 08:44:31 -
[65] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:if that's true they sent you here knowing how you'd be treated.
It's normally against the rules to release support correspondence but I would be very interested to know who handled your support ticket and what was said.
Well, after I reported the scam, they gave me the answer that changing the docking-rights is a game mechanic. They "fear" they cant help me because there is a theoretical way to deliver goods into locked stations:
I have to find a person who still has docking rights to the locked station. Then I have to give him my cargo. He docks into the station and he gives me the cargo back via trading-contract and then I can finsih the contract.
Thats well said, there are only a few problems: - I never owned a station so I have no clue who has docking rights to locked stations. Even in the Web there is nothing about this topic. - I guess the only guy who has still access to the station is the owner of the station, so I should give the person who scammed me also my cargo?! - Iam a beginner, I only have 3 contacts in my friendlist. How should I find a person with docking-rights to a particular station 12 jumps away from my homebase? - Even if I find someone who has still access to a locked station (idk a corpmate or his ingame-wife lol) I really doubt that they will do this for me.
Anyway, after I answered with my explainations they told me that they see my answer as "feedback" and feedback belongs to the forums. They gave me two links (one to the german, one to the english forums) and thats it. |
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
23964
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 08:47:07 -
[66] - Quote
What I have seen is that CCP selling point of this game is you can scam and be a thief. And that is what makes it different from many other MMO games, so they are not eager to give it up. Also they give you freedom to scam back the guy who scammed you. So its not so unfair as it seems.
Also LOL at wanting 500 M isk back from CCP or else he would not play. Even if you would get that back, you will lose it again and again, maybe not to scams, but you will. Will you beg CCP for every 1M ISK you lost in the game or only past 500M margin loses, "because it was unfair game mechanics"?
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
268
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 08:53:38 -
[67] - Quote
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:Hy,
after ~40 days (mid Nov GÇô late Dec.) of playing EVE online as an Alpha-Clone I want to give a little review and some of my impressions. I want to give points (0min - 10max) for every aspect of the game:
A well written review.
The Alpha update brought me back for a look around. The main benefit would seem to be keeping a connection to players so that they aren't entirely lost if they stop paying. I like logging in every few days and updating the training queue.
Apart from that I'm not really interested in doing stuff, I'm not a PvPer, apart from on various forums. I have a good opinion of EVE but I wanted more from it, than it was able to give.
I'll twiddle my thumbs and wait for someone to make Minecraft in Space, that might be nice.
~
~~
Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox.
~~
~
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
23964
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:01:38 -
[68] - Quote
And why would you give 1/10 for PvP? I only licked it few times and have a lot better impressions as an entitled carebear. There is so much depth to it in all directions and I see you dont even managed to notice you are bad at engaging right targets. I have not seen a fair PvP in any game to date. You always have to deal with what others prepare for you, and you may be sure they will make every effort to have as much advantage over you as they can.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
|
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
23964
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:13:14 -
[69] - Quote
And I like Rain's art.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
|
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
87
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:14:16 -
[70] - Quote
EVE doesn't always go your way and unless you put in active effort to learn and MAKE it go your way then it'll probably go someone else's way. This is the basis of EVE be it in trading, PVP, production, scamming and whatnot. If you can't deal with this basic "rule" then EVE is not for you which is fine of course. If you can deal with it as long as it IS going your way but go mental when it doesn't, you're just a sore loser.
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Roggo II Seuchenvogel
Roggos GmbH
8
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:17:52 -
[71] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:And why would you give 1/10 for PvP? I only licked it few times and have a lot better impressions as an entitled carebear. There is so much depth to it in all directions and I see you dont even managed to notice you are bad at engaging right targets. I have not seen a fair PvP in any game to date. You always have to deal with what others prepare for you, and you may be sure they will make every effort to have as much advantage over you as they can.
Someone wrote I cant accapt that I got scammed, and thats true. I play MMOs now for nearly 10 years and what you think how often I sold things for 1% of it worth or trashed rare item etc. I had no problems with this because it was always my fault. But in this case I think it was not my fault. I dont care about the ISK its about the principle. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:18:14 -
[72] - Quote
Thylarctos Sturzka wrote:Rain6637 wrote: [quote]Margin scams where overpriced buy orders fail, those are okay. Someone did the math and thought they'd get away with something clever. It uses game mechanics.
I completely disagree. A player should be able to look at the details of a public contract or market order and expect that the advertised exchange will happen if they accept the order/contract. I would agree with you if there was a way to separate the Margin Trading skill from this scam, but there isn't. You could check to see if market orders can be filled and then cancel them, but even that can be manipulated after the corresponding sell order for the scam.
Thylarctos Sturzka wrote: Making a certain class of players immune to scams by decree is not practical, and not a good idea anyway. Either outright ban the public advertising of various scams, or accept that anyone who falls for one learns an expensive lesson as a result of their own greed. Trying to have a middle ground of isk-doubling scams are allowed, hauling scams are allowed, quitting the game sale scams are allowed, but if it's a newer player that falls for it you have to give them back their money, that's silly.
ISK doubling scammers should be required to put their scam in contracts. The scams where it's you typing promises to someone, that's just lying. It's not gameplay, it's just a chat window inside the game. The point of the character age requirement is giving them fair time to find out about scams or be warned.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1322
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:26:44 -
[73] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Feedback is normally very hard to get from people who are on their way out. If this is real, the feedback is more valid than you think. Personally I think there's an ethical responsibility when the game's developers benefit from scams, especially ones involving PLEX purchases. I think alphas or even true first-time players should receive the same protection as character bazaar sales.
Something like prohibiting scams against characters less than six months old.
Yes this would include veterans who have characters younger than six months, but it would be for the sake of those younger characters who are truly new. And in the case of blanket scams, if a character messages a scammer asking for their ISK back, it better be given back.
While it's true that scamming has been a part of EVE, that doesn't mean it always has to be. It's not balanced with game mechanics, so not only is it outside the scope of game design, there's also a real money benefit from PLEX sales.
Scamming should end and EVE would be a better game environment. There's plenty of more or less eloquent "Feedback" from people on their way out. Usually it goes like this:
"I haven't really played much of the game, and I understand only a very tiny fraction of how anything works, but you need to fix scams/ganks/theft/wars/whatever it was I didn't understand and got pwned at".
If they were to "fix" those issues in the way those on their way out imply (usually remove/prohibit them alltogether), just wait what the "Feedback" from people on their way out would look like then.
The thing is - all those "bad" things are pretty much Eves strongest selling points. If they were to remove all the skullduggery players rage about on their way out, Eve would just be bland, repetetive and rather pointless. Now you could argue that they'd just need to make more engaging Storyline and PvE content, but aside from the fact that this would be a massive undertaking, but it would be the same approach we've seen on so many other MMOGs. And not only do we have enough of those already, but they are also not doing so well either for the most part.
Suggesting to remove scams from Eve because you can't handle scamming would be like prohibiting soccer players from running, because you are not good at that, and giving the players rackets, because kicking the ball hurts your feet. It would be a wholly different game.
Rain6637 wrote:ISK doubling scammers should be required to put their scam in contracts. The scams where it's you typing promises to someone, that's just lying. It's not gameplay, it's just a chat window inside the game. The point of the character age requirement is giving them fair time to find out about scams or be warned. There's no better way to teach a new player how to play the game than letting them play it. You wouldn't ask for a "don't snipe newbies" rule in Counterstrike either, to give them a chance to learn by ... watching, I suppose, that they can be sniped if they are out in the open and don't watch out.
I do agree, btw, that scamming typically involves lying. So what? That is what makes it interesting in the first place. At some point, you should learn to not be so gullible as to just believe what a random guy you know nothing about in an online game tells you. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:30:16 -
[74] - Quote
I don't have the motivation to help you out and explain why your logic is bad.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Thylarctos Sturzka
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:30:30 -
[75] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: I would agree with you if there was a way to separate the Margin Trading skill from this scam, but there isn't. You could check to see if market orders can be filled and then cancel them, but even that can be manipulated after the corresponding sell order for the scam.
You could. Margin trading just means you don't have to tie up all your isk in escrow. But if an order is filled and you don't have isk on hand because you moved it or otherwise spent it, then the order should still go through, and your isk total could go negative.
Quote: ISK doubling scammers should be required to put their scam in contracts. The scams where it's you typing promises to someone, that's just lying. It's not gameplay, it's just a chat window inside the game. The point of the character age requirement is giving them fair time to find out about scams or be warned.
That'd work, too. But if anyone takes an item exchange contract without checking whether it's actually decent value, then I think that's on them, new or old. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:33:03 -
[76] - Quote
Going negative could work, but you could also dispose of the character.
There are cases like courier contracts where you can't tell whether the value of the item is worthwhile, or whether you can dock at the destination. Did you see the explanation about the workaround to docking rights? Get someone with docking rights to put the items in the citadel, as if it's impossible to run your own one-person citadel.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1322
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:33:57 -
[77] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I don't have the motivation to help you out and explain why your logic is bad. Or in other words: You got nothing. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:34:48 -
[78] - Quote
No I don't have the energy to unravel your ball of fallacies with a helping of analogies on top.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
1635
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:37:50 -
[79] - Quote
From what I observed hauling took quite a hit with the introduction of citadels and the "lock you out from delivery" scam. Whenever someone new was in need of ISK I let them salvage my missions or tossed them a hauling contract for something I was too lazy to move myself. (I drop my WH exploration loot all over highsec by dumping it whenever I get a connection.) And recently a lot of players told me that they got scammed by hauling contracts through highsec and that they wonGÇÖt haul anymore.
I am totally fine with the "we will blow you up in that one lowsec system that you must pass and collect the collateral" thing. Fair game to me and the scammer has to put a bit of effort into it. But the lockout scam is a big newbie trap and I donGÇÖt like that the scammer just has to do one click instead of luring and blowing stuff up. I would be very, very happy if stations and citadels had drop-off boxes. This would beef up the whole spying/traitor game too, as you could supply an GÇ£enemyGÇÖsGÇ¥ corp structure.
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1322
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:37:54 -
[80] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:No I don't have the energy to unravel your ball of fallacies with a helping of analogies on top. Yet you claim fallacies and false logic. That should be easy to prove wrong. You got nothing. |
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
23966
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:42:31 -
[81] - Quote
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:And why would you give 1/10 for PvP? I only licked it few times and have a lot better impressions as an entitled carebear. There is so much depth to it in all directions and I see you dont even managed to notice you are bad at engaging right targets. I have not seen a fair PvP in any game to date. You always have to deal with what others prepare for you, and you may be sure they will make every effort to have as much advantage over you as they can. Someone wrote I cant accapt that I got scammed, and thats true. I play MMOs now for nearly 10 years and what you think how often I sold things for 1% of it worth or trashed rare item etc. I had no problems with this because it was always my fault. But in this case I think it was not my fault. I dont care about the ISK its about the principle. First, if you are accepting contract, you have to be sure you can dock up in the destination station. Every player owned structure like citadel for example is very risky destination target to accept. Now you know why. You made a mistake. Deal with it.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
|
Roggo II Seuchenvogel
Roggos GmbH
8
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:52:17 -
[82] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Deal with it.
I have already delt with it, I bought and play another game. |
Thylarctos Sturzka
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:52:44 -
[83] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Going negative could work, but you could also dispose of the character.
There are ways to fix that from CCP's standpoint, too. Removing the ability to put up a scam buy order that fails on fulfilment would remove the ability to scam others with it, so I'd expect the scam itself to stop being used. So the only ones that'd run into issues and go negative would be legitimate traders who've miscalculated a bit, and they'd likely be pretty quick to get the isk total back in the black. In what I think would be the rare case of someone deliberately going very negative with market trading skill prior to disposing of/ignoring the character, then they're scamming CCP out of isk, and CCP could whack them hard with the banhammer and/or recover the isk from other characters. Not a perfect solution, but I think it's quite workable.
Quote:There are cases like courier contracts where you can't tell whether the value of the item is worthwhile, or whether you can dock at the destination. Did you see the explanation about the workaround to docking rights? Get someone with docking rights to put the items in the citadel, as if it's impossible to run your own one-person citadel.
My assumption is that the issuers of the scam contracts revoke docking rights from everyone, to prevent them using a friend/alt to deliver it.
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Thylarctos Sturzka
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 09:58:27 -
[84] - Quote
Gregorius Goldstein wrote: I would be very, very happy if stations and citadels had drop-off boxes. This would beef up the whole spying/traitor game too, as you could supply an GÇ£enemyGÇÖsGÇ¥ corp structure.
I like that idea.
I'd like to be able to put hauling contracts for my own exploring loot to be delivered to where I build stuff, without it looking like a scam due to the destination not being an NPC station.
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Mala Zvitorepka
A.I.R.
1
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 10:00:16 -
[85] - Quote
Well, there are scams that rely on people being careless, naive or dumb. Usually all 3. And then there are scams that rely on poor or broken game mechanics that should be considered exploits (but usually aren't simply because fixes aren't expected).
Isk doubling, advertising selling something with different goods in the package, overpriced sells and underpriced buys etc all are fine. Everyone is able to see the scam and only the person falling victim to the scam is to be blamed. Hauling scam when the purpose is to get hauler destroyed are completely in line with game mechanics too - people hauling should expect their ship might get destroyed.
This hauling scam here is a result of poor game mechanics. Someone new cannot really expect that station owner can put him on "cannot access station" list the moment he accepts contract, as he could dock before accepting it (failing to check in the first place is hauler's fault). But how to fix and not open up another abuse of the system? Perhaps make access changes happen with a few hour delay (and when you check access on the station, you see whether you are able to dock, will not be able after X hours, will be able after Y hours, aren't able).
Margin trading is a scam that an outsider simply cannot know about and is result of totally ancient and broken market. If I were new, I would reasonably expect that all the buy and sell orders on the market can be actually taken. Hopefully this gets eventually implemented. Not just to prevent scams, but to make selling and buying better. Skill does make sense, for example when I want to buy tons of different minerals and other building materials and cannot fully cover all the costs initially. It would be great if this skill was even more powerful and there was a buy counterpart. So I could post permanent unlimited "X @ Y" orders, both for buys and sells. When I run out of ammo to sell, or ISK to buy stuff, order would simply disappear, to come up again when I get money or ammo. With ammo to sell staying in the hangar until it is bought. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 10:00:31 -
[86] - Quote
Thylarctos Sturzka wrote:Quote:There are cases like courier contracts where you can't tell whether the value of the item is worthwhile, or whether you can dock at the destination. Did you see the explanation about the workaround to docking rights? Get someone with docking rights to put the items in the citadel, as if it's impossible to run your own one-person citadel. My assumption is that the issuers of the scam contracts revoke docking rights from everyone, to prevent them using a friend/alt to deliver it. yeah basically. so the support ticket response doesn't work.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1322
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 10:20:46 -
[87] - Quote
I'd like to highlight a rather important bit about the courier contract scam again: http://imgur.com/a/rAEL2
You have been warned. No fix required. |
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
23966
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 10:23:58 -
[88] - Quote
Roggo II Seuchenvogel wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:Deal with it. I have already delt with it, I bought and play another game. Actually, if you would ever again want to do really risky and dangerous stuff, also maybe feel like a fool afterwards, remember, you are not safewalled out here, so you can learn something.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
|
Rain6637
NulzSec
34753
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 10:35:13 -
[89] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:I'd like to highlight a rather important bit about the courier contract scam again: http://imgur.com/a/rAEL2 You have been warned. No fix required. That's a valid point. Do you think there is a reason why citadels shouldn't have a delivery bin?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1325
|
Posted - 2017.01.10 10:40:06 -
[90] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Neuntausend wrote:I'd like to highlight a rather important bit about the courier contract scam again: http://imgur.com/a/rAEL2 You have been warned. No fix required. That's a valid point. Do you think there is a reason why citadels shouldn't have a delivery bin? Certainly not. A delivery bin should be optional, though. It would need to be a choice you can't change quickly, so you can't bait and switch with it, and the contractor could then make an educated choice about delivering things to a citadel that doesn't have one, like they can now for citadels in general. |
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