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Tanaka Vinck
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Posted - 2007.04.18 04:30:00 -
[1]
I had an ore theif steal from me while jet can mining. I had the "Floating Cargo" window for my own jet can open and decided to take what ore I could fit in my cargo hold out of my own jet can in order to minimize my loss in case he flipped the whole can. As soon as I moved the ore from my own jet caninto my cargo hold, I was flagged and he attacked me.
I petitioned this and was told that CCP's logs indicate that I stole from this guy's can, even though I never touched his can. I suspected foul play, so I did some testing with my alt. I found that if I used my alt to steal a small amount of ore from my jet can, created a new jet can with the alt, then dragged another chunk of ore out of my main's jet can into my alt's jet can just a split second before my main also dragged the same ore into his cargo hold, the ore would appear in the alt's jet can for just a fraction of a second,then disappear and reappear in the main's cargo hold, and the main would get flagged. (Did you all follow that?) I've since added a message explaining this in my petition and am awaiting feedback. This technique should be classified as an exploit, but apparently CCP has no way right now to track when this happens, as it looks to them like I simlpy stole from my alt's jet can.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.04.18 07:17:00 -
[2]
I was able to repo this using two accounts. We tried to repro it with two players that could not see one another and could not get it to work as the timing is critical to the procedure.
Even if the timing were more loose, this tactic is easily defeated because it only works can to can. As such, a tractor beam can pull the can, the thief can only drop one jet can every three minutes. So, drag your can away from the thief, if he drops another can, drag your can a bit further, till your can is at least 3001 meters from the thief's can. Now if the thief drags a can along with him, with his own tractor and can go at least 500 m/s, well then you migt have a problem, if he can time it.
If it is a bug or exploit, that is for CCP to decide. But it does show that moving items between cans is not atomic and fails ACID. -AS |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.18 12:12:00 -
[3]
Following this in the Starbase forum as well, question is does this have anything to do with the bug that the can/cargo do not update properly?
Example, can has 1000 units, if the thief steals 1 unit - due to the update bug your can will still say 1000, thus you try to take back the 1000 units, and for some reason the 1 unit is linked to his can thus you're stealing that one too.
What would happen if you close your can, open it again then it will update to 999 units, and you take that - flagged or not flagged?
Help me help you. |
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Tanaka Vinck
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Posted - 2007.04.18 13:16:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Tanaka Vinck on 18/04/2007 13:14:05 I don't know if it has anything to do with an update bug or not. But I suspect it doesn't, since my can did update to reflect the one unit of ore that I stole from myself. It was when we both grabbed the same unit of ore at once that this happened.
As far as timing, i suspect what the ore theives are doing is simply dragging one unit at a time from your can to theirs, over and over, and hoping you trip the trap.
Edit: just got a response to my petition telling me that if I'm sure of what I just tested, I should submit it as a bug report. I'm doing so right now.
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Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.04.18 15:26:00 -
[5]
Theres an old high sec pirate trick or two around Jet Can Mining, to allow them to get high sec kills.
However its worth remembering that Jet Can Mining is in itself not something 'supported by CCP' (ie its kind of an exploit).
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Elain Reverse
Caldari Shokei
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Theres an old high sec pirate trick or two around Jet Can Mining, to allow them to get high sec kills.
However its worth remembering that Jet Can Mining is in itself not something 'supported by CCP' (ie its kind of an exploit).
Oh realy ? how would you want transfer ore from your mining ship to hauler ? And dont say sec containers as they are not big enough just to drag once for serious miner, ie 6000m3 vs 3800m3.
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Mintoko
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.18 21:42:00 -
[7]
Where is it stated that it's an exploit? I'm truly getting sick and tired of jetcan mining being called an 'exploit'. If it was, CCP would have taken care of it a loooooong time ago. Why would the can have 27,500m¦ of space if it wasn't meant to be used?
Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Theres an old high sec pirate trick or two around Jet Can Mining, to allow them to get high sec kills.
However its worth remembering that Jet Can Mining is in itself not something 'supported by CCP' (ie its kind of an exploit).
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.18 21:47:00 -
[8]
Perhaps the word exploit is not the correct term, I think the correct term is, not a supported method of mining :-)
Quote: Oh realy ? how would you want transfer ore from your mining ship to hauler ? And dont say sec containers as they are not big enough just to drag once for serious miner, ie 6000m3 vs 3800m3.
Your transfering the ore from one ship to another.
What happen here was not a coperation of 2 ships, he was mining and placing it in a jet can, which is not the purpose of a jet can.
It can be used like that, granted its a good use of resources to a pretty lame feature otherwise.
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.19 00:53:00 -
[9]
It wasn't an intended use of Jet cans... BACK IN BETA. Since EVE went live CCP have accepted it as a valid use. It's no longer an exploit because CCP say it isn't.
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Bellannaer
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Posted - 2007.04.19 04:24:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot It wasn't an intended use of Jet cans... BACK IN BETA. Since EVE went live CCP have accepted it as a valid use. It's no longer an exploit because CCP say it isn't.
They've accepted it as a valid use, that doesn't mean they support it as a proper mining method.
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Emma Royd
Caldari Ravished Husk Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.19 05:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bellannaer
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot It wasn't an intended use of Jet cans... BACK IN BETA. Since EVE went live CCP have accepted it as a valid use. It's no longer an exploit because CCP say it isn't.
They've accepted it as a valid use, that doesn't mean they support it as a proper mining method.
lol, you'll be telling me next that mining in a battleship isn't a proper method as that's not what they're intended for :p
Seriously though, the way I see it is CCP don't really care how you mine, if they didn't like it they would alter the system so you couldn't mine into a can. This sounds more like a bug than an exploit, and since we all know how long CCP take to respond to bugs, don't hold your breath
It's not often I'm wrong, apart from the comments I make in the signature, and then I'm often wrong. On the other hand maybe I'm getting confused. ......My head hurts :( |
WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.19 07:30:00 -
[12]
Its not a bug, the guy tricked him into stealing from him.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.04.19 14:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: WhitePhantom Its not a bug, the guy tricked him into stealing from him.
I can repro this, using two accounts, and I can repro it at will. The victim never takes from any can but his own.
Bug yes or no is up to the developer. -AS |
Tanaka Vinck
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Posted - 2007.04.20 04:25:00 -
[14]
I wasn't 'tricked into stealing from him' as I didn't steal from him. I moved ore from my own can to my own hold. The fact that that flags me is a bug. I've reported as such at the urging of a GM. Whether that gets it fixed is anyone's guess, but now that I know better I won't be falling for it again.
Anyone who doesn't have their theft warning turned off wanna check and see if doing this triggers the 'miner' character's "Are you sure ya wanna do that?" warning? It didn't go off for me, but I may have shut that message off.
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2007.08.19 22:29:00 -
[15]
No it was a bug, is a bug. It is STILL a bug. And I've filed what is surely the thousandth bug report on this so far.
It is STILL a bug.
What is the correct number of bug reports one has to file before a bug is considered real, as opposed to fantasy, or important, as opposed to acceptable?
And does it have anything to do with BoB members getting done down because of bugs?
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Ladyah Liandri
A GmbH
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Posted - 2007.08.20 09:20:00 -
[16]
Originally by: WhitePhantom Its not a bug, the guy tricked him into stealing from him.
I wonder who tricked you WhitePhantom into constantly posting stuff that you obviously have no clue of.
Anyways this behaviour is quite easily reproducable. In my experience the trick is to not steal an entire pile of ore but only a fragment.
It seems as if you'll become owner of this fragment pretty much instantly i.e. BEFORE you actually drop it into your own can.
So if the original owner at the same time tries to move the entire pile back to cargo - including the floating part you are about to steal - he will be flagged.
To me that clearly counts as a bug.
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.08.20 17:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ladyah Liandri
Originally by: WhitePhantom Its not a bug, the guy tricked him into stealing from him.
I wonder who tricked you WhitePhantom into constantly posting stuff that you obviously have no clue of.
Anyways this behaviour is quite easily reproducable. In my experience the trick is to not steal an entire pile of ore but only a fragment.
It seems as if you'll become owner of this fragment pretty much instantly i.e. BEFORE you actually drop it into your own can.
So if the original owner at the same time tries to move the entire pile back to cargo - including the floating part you are about to steal - he will be flagged.
To me that clearly counts as a bug.
I say what I feel like saying, nobody tricks me into saying anything, I say what I feel is correct.
I am smart enough not to flame somebody 4 months later...
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Grainsalt
Free Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.03 08:02:00 -
[18]
Interesting couple of issue we had over the weekend.
1) Got agroed moving an item from our own can to my hold, which was "flipped" as I was moving the item. I never touched the new can but got agroed and died anyways.. "Thanks Rackateers"
2) Whilst looting and salvaging wrecks of my own last night I managed to salvage and loot a wreck at the same time and a normal jet can was sat in space with no items holding it open.. Which is very weird.
Anyway, only lost 45m of so, so no biggie. But looks like this bug is back in some form or other. ---
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=554257
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