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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2017.01.18 23:24:44 -
[1] - Quote
So, a thought.
Marauders are in a tough place both in PVP and in nullsec. Sure they work, and sure lots of people use them. But there's a pretty major flaw in a ship that will likely run you up a few billion, before implants. And I'll say here (before most people TLDR to the bottom) that I recognize marauders are presently viewed as PVE ships.
They can use their bastion module (the sole reason for owning a marauder over a faction BS, really) at a cost of mobility, or they can not use their bastion module at a cost of flying a ship that performs on-par with ships that cost a billion isk less.
On the premise that a marauder isn't really worth flying without bastion, what about (non-consentual) PVP. What if you're ratting in null and a scout/fleet jumps in? You're SOL. In PVP fleets kind of the same thing... range dictation wins fights.
What if marauders could activate a MJD while bastion was active? I'm not talking about scram-immunity. Or the ability to align their ships. Just activate the MJD, and 9 seconds later end up 100km forward of your current position, current cooldowns applicable.
With regards to being tackled while ratting, if they only have long points, you might have a chance to get away (time the jump to coincide with bastion cycle ending, then after jumping, hopefully warp to a safe place). With regards to pvp, they'd have very limited movement to help with range dictation... marauder sniper fleets might be an interesting comp at that point. I mean heck, a tachyon paladin with aurora can easily run 600 dps out to 250km, assuming they can target that far. I'm sure other races can do similar. Only a moron would field a fleet of marauders for pvp though, for the obvious reasons.
I guess ultimately the question becomes would the ability to MJD once every 54seconds too heavily negate the weakness that bastion is supposed to impart (mobility), or increase the ship's flexibility enough to see it get used more? Especially given that the MJD will sig-bloom the heck out of the BS.
In the end, using bastion is a false choice - a marauder not using it is doing it wrong. If you do use it, you've got no counter to a roaming fleet, and no amount of situational awareness will be sufficient to save you from getting caught, because you simply can't move. It's "a chance"... even if only a small one at that.
Thoughts? |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5191
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Posted - 2017.01.18 23:59:35 -
[2] - Quote
...Why?
This would only be useful in the nichest of niche cases. I mean, what kind of a gang that is capable of cracking a marauder, not an easy prospect in itself, is not going to have a single scram with it?
If you're solo, why should you have a counter to a FLEET anyway? Besides your 30,000 DPS tank or whatever absolute nonsense you can squeeze out of a vargur these days. |
Lienzo
Amanuensis
95
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Posted - 2017.01.19 00:13:26 -
[3] - Quote
I think they could benefit from a module that makes them a fleet pvp asset. I'd like to see something that makes both the user and the target immune to remote repair, or perhaps any remote effects. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3834
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Posted - 2017.01.19 01:04:55 -
[4] - Quote
Or they could just remove the immobility from Bastion. It still forces you to commit, it still blocks RR and other things. It just means you can actually maraud and use grid positioning while it's running.
The Immobility is a relic from before they split the Ewar resistances as you can be pointed while bastion is running, so it doesn't matter if you are aligned already. You can't warp till cycle ends and they can land and get a point on you in the mean time. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2017.01.19 01:39:49 -
[5] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote: This would only be useful in the nichest of niche cases. I mean, what kind of a gang that is capable of cracking a marauder, not an easy prospect in itself, is not going to have a single scram with it?
Because it's a small chance. As you say they have obscene tanks. I-WIN buttons aren't fun for 99% of players.
So I present to you a very likely (and common-ish) scenario.
You're ratting away, and because you're a scrub you aren't watching local. All of a sudden you see a Tengu landing on grid. Uhoh.
With MJD: You activate your MJD before the tengu even lands on you (he brought probes, just to make it even harder for you), and with LUCK, you will have enough time to get the MJD off before he can land and scram you. Now you're 100km off with guns built for slamming the crap out of things at range. Tengu has to decide whether to burn to you and tackle, light the cyno and hope that the marauder dies before it does (still isk-positive but it's always a killjoy losing a T3C), or warp off.
Without MJD: Tengu lands, lights a cyno, and capitals (or a bomber fleet) drop-kick you right back to your medical clone location. No way to answer, no way to fight. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3525
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Posted - 2017.01.19 01:53:57 -
[6] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote: Sure they work, and sure lots of people use them.
sounds like there is no issue then
its almost like despite the cost they are still worth fielding in the correct situations
BLOPS Hauler
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3525
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Posted - 2017.01.19 01:57:36 -
[7] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote: Tengu lands, lights a cyno, and capitals (or a bomber fleet) drop-kick you right back to your medical clone location. No way to answer, no way to fight.
the fight started before the tengue entered system. you were fighting as he slipped by intel chs you were fighting when he entered local and you missed it, you were fighting when he launched probes and you didn't use d-scan. so there were plenty of answers and plenty of ways to fight
BLOPS Hauler
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2017.01.19 02:03:31 -
[8] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Old Pervert wrote: Sure they work, and sure lots of people use them. sounds like there is no issue then its almost like despite the cost they are still worth fielding in the correct situations
Lots of people use meth too, works good for getting them high. Doesn't mean there isn't an issue with it.
My point is that there is a vulnerability/weakness which seems to be excessive. A minor tweak allowing a modicum of mobility would be an improvement that may see more marauders used more frequently. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2017.01.19 02:10:41 -
[9] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Old Pervert wrote: Tengu lands, lights a cyno, and capitals (or a bomber fleet) drop-kick you right back to your medical clone location. No way to answer, no way to fight.
the fight started before the tengue entered system. you were fighting as he slipped by intel chs you were fighting when he entered local and you missed it, you were fighting when he launched probes and you didn't use d-scan. so there were plenty of answers and plenty of ways to fight
And yet if you are ratting at a time when your membership is not frequently on, you may not have any intel. "Get good" isn't an answer to that, "join a bigger corp/alliance" is.. and some people prefer small gang - not something I can fault them for.
I agree that once in-system, a bad player deserves to lose their ship (d-scan, local, etc). But with bastion cycle time, even a good player will lose their ship, unless they have good intel. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5179
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Posted - 2017.01.19 06:32:03 -
[10] - Quote
Changing Bastion to a 30-second cycle would help. Not sure about being able to MJD while in Bastion but it's an interesting idea. I'd certainly exploit the heck out of it in PvE.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Shu t'Me
28
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Posted - 2017.01.19 07:18:38 -
[11] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Changing Bastion to a 30-second cycle would help. Not sure about being able to MJD while in Bastion but it's an interesting idea. I'd certainly exploit the heck out of it in PvE. My mission alt would only ever leave bastion to warp. With the cooldown bonus to MJD, Marauders are the fastest battleships in the game. Coupling this level of maneuverability with never having to leave bastion is way OP. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2017.01.19 07:57:35 -
[12] - Quote
Shu t'Me wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Changing Bastion to a 30-second cycle would help. Not sure about being able to MJD while in Bastion but it's an interesting idea. I'd certainly exploit the heck out of it in PvE. My mission alt would only ever leave bastion to warp. With the cooldown bonus to MJD, Marauders are the fastest battleships in the game. Coupling this level of maneuverability with never having to leave bastion is way OP.
Fastest, unless you only need to move <49km.
Remember you would have to leave bastion to align your ship to jump in the right direction, which you can already do. There might be a few edge cases where all you need to do is move forward 100km, but jumping 100km toward a gate for example, when it's 30km away, is pointless.
Yes, you could pre-align if you're farming and you know where they'll spawn. But that's the only abuse, and really, you can do it already anyways (bastion cycle is 60s, MJD cooldown is 54). |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3835
|
Posted - 2017.01.19 08:48:54 -
[13] - Quote
Shu t'Me wrote: My mission alt would only ever leave bastion to warp. With the cooldown bonus to MJD, Marauders are the fastest battleships in the game. Coupling this level of maneuverability with never having to leave bastion is way OP.
Ok, and? Shouldn't the Billion Isk T2 Battleship actually be terrifying. It's not like plenty of stuff doesn't outpace them even with the MJD use, Cruisers can outpace them even while they MJD, and that assumes the enemy doesn't have a Command Destroyer themselves to sling the interceptors or what have you. Having to sit still might be fine for crashing a gate camp and just shooting anyone who tries to stay and fight you, but it's not interesting, it denies you all those fine attributes of positioning. And it's just not needed any more, it's a relic from before Ewar resists splitting things.
You can't pre aling in bastion btw, your ship doesn't have a facing, only a velocity, so you couldn't be at 0 and MJD because the server doesn't know which way to send you. Which makes the ability to move mandatory for this anyway. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5179
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Posted - 2017.01.19 09:59:07 -
[14] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Shouldn't the Billion Isk T2 Battleship actually be terrifying. It pays for itself in a terrifyingly short timeframe...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat Snuffed Out
3858
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Posted - 2017.01.19 10:17:06 -
[15] - Quote
nah bastion is like saying "lets do this"
Alliance Logo Design Service
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Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5180
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Posted - 2017.01.19 10:18:29 -
[16] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:nah bastion is like saying "lets do this" I thought it was subtly advertising "drop a carrier on me"...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat Snuffed Out
3858
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Posted - 2017.01.19 10:20:10 -
[17] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Lan Wang wrote:nah bastion is like saying "lets do this" I thought it was subtly advertising "drop a carrier on me"...
yeah BRING THE RAIN!
Alliance Logo Design Service
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Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3526
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Posted - 2017.01.19 12:00:08 -
[18] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Old Pervert wrote: Tengu lands, lights a cyno, and capitals (or a bomber fleet) drop-kick you right back to your medical clone location. No way to answer, no way to fight.
the fight started before the tengue entered system. you were fighting as he slipped by intel chs you were fighting when he entered local and you missed it, you were fighting when he launched probes and you didn't use d-scan. so there were plenty of answers and plenty of ways to fight And yet if you are ratting at a time when your membership is not frequently on, you may not have any intel. "Get good" isn't an answer to that, "join a bigger corp/alliance" is.. and some people prefer small gang - not something I can fault them for. I agree that once in-system, a bad player deserves to lose their ship (d-scan, local, etc). But with bastion cycle time, even a good player will lose their ship, unless they have good intel.
I see these things ratting all the time in WH where there is no local or intel they seem to be doing just fine
you don't seem to be upset about how useful this ship is in pvp but how weak a PvE fit ship is in pvp. with a pvp fit these things can take on rather large gangs solo and do not need any more advantages
BLOPS Hauler
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat Snuffed Out
3860
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Posted - 2017.01.19 12:01:27 -
[19] - Quote
you can always use a tempest if you are too scared of bastion...
Alliance Logo Design Service
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Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2017.01.19 16:07:15 -
[20] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I see these things ratting all the time in WH where there is no local or intel they seem to be doing just fine
you don't seem to be upset about how useful this ship is in pvp but how weak a PvE fit ship is in pvp. with a pvp fit these things can take on rather large gangs solo and do not need any more advantages
They can absolutely take on a rather large gang. And what I'm advocating will not really improve their odds at all against a gang (as was said earlier, a gang will probably have a scram anyways). What I'm advocating will give them a slight GTFO IFF they happen to spool up their MJD before the initial tackle lands on them.
Lan Wang wrote: you can always use a tempest if you are too scared of bastion...
I use a nightmare at the moment, I haven't trained marauders at all yet (yay for new doctrines... ironically they are tempests lol). Planning to train a paladin up though, because more isk means I can finance more fun.
Truth be told, I'm not expecting the change I'm suggesting. I'd like it, I think it would increase dynamics and give the player more tactical choices. Until then I'll just throw a cyno on it to counter-drop whatever lands on me.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3534
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Posted - 2017.01.19 16:41:14 -
[21] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I see these things ratting all the time in WH where there is no local or intel they seem to be doing just fine
you don't seem to be upset about how useful this ship is in pvp but how weak a PvE fit ship is in pvp. with a pvp fit these things can take on rather large gangs solo and do not need any more advantages They can absolutely take on a rather large gang. And what I'm advocating will not really improve their odds at all against a gang (as was said earlier, a gang will probably have a scram anyways). What I'm advocating will give them a slight GTFO IFF they happen to spool up their MJD before the initial tackle lands on them.
but thats just it eve is about risk vs reward if you want the power that comes from a bastion tank you are going to need to take on more risk. just like with the rorq or a dread
BLOPS Hauler
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Cade Windstalker
711
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Posted - 2017.01.19 20:16:32 -
[22] - Quote
OP, and anyone else curious about this, I direct you to the almost 400 page thread from the original Marauder rebalance. Pretty much exactly that was proposed at some point (like five times) during that thread, there's probably either A. some good discussion or B. an answer addressing this somewhere in that thread.
In either case what's definitely in there is a lot said by CCP on the role of Marauders and the trade-offs the Bastion module is supposed to provide.
The really really short summary? Marauders aren't supposed to be PvP pwn mobiles. They see some limited use and that's fine. |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
1105
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Posted - 2017.01.20 00:55:45 -
[23] - Quote
Dislike bastion since it went live in game
Kronos and Paladin had 90% web bonus before and all of them got drone bay reduction and Vargur got butchered its speed and agility, mass added etc.
Some nice pvp virtues got replaced for what?
Giant self tackling punch bag there are not marauders any more... you take bastion and dig out potato from your garden stick it on scan it in game and voila there's your marauder,hull doesn't matter its all about the module remove module and these ships are garbage material < i just dont EVE like this it is abysmally lame i will never use it in PVP as long as i am sober cant support lame gameplay on any level.
Projection tank ewar too much in module too little in ships i would honestly like to see it smashed properly with a nerfbat and some less carebare / lame variations got out something fitting name marauder more not making em immobile pigs dressed in bullet vests.
Typhoon Fleet Issue SOE skin for the win.
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5189
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Posted - 2017.01.20 02:26:36 -
[24] - Quote
Yes, the great web nerf of 2015... gone but apparently not forgotten.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3537
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Posted - 2017.01.20 10:23:12 -
[25] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Dislike bastion since it went live in game
Kronos and Paladin had 90% web bonus before and all of them got drone bay reduction and Vargur got butchered its speed and agility, mass added etc.
Some nice pvp virtues got replaced for what?
Giant self tackling punch bags they are not marauders any more... you take bastion and dig out potato from your garden stick it on scan it in game and voila there's your marauder,hull doesn't matter its all about the module remove module and these ships are garbage material < i just dont EVE like this it is abysmally lame i will never use it in PVP as long as i am sober cant support lame gameplay on any level.
Projection tank ewar too much in module too little in ships i would honestly like to see it smashed properly with a nerfbat and some less carebare / lame variations got out something fitting the name marauder not making them immobile pigs dressed in bullet vests.
i rarely found my self using these ships in pvp before bastion after bastion they have become amazing to use in fleets of 2-3. from your description it doesn't seem like its a bad or "lame" change just a change that doesnt fit your play style
BLOPS Hauler
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