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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
31
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Posted - 2017.01.20 03:24:03 -
[1] - Quote
I won't deny that Target painters are useful, they are. Increasing damage application is important, especially in medium and large groups and when large ships engage small ones, but the situations where they are more useful than the disruptive types of Ewar are few and far between. I think they should be more useful than they currently are and so make the following suggestion.
I would suggest that target painters become able to apply to their targets an additional negative affect to Agility, on top of Signature, and then have optimization scripts to focus on one or the other.
I think this will make them more useful in close range combat and give the option towards applying an actual disruptive effect to opponents rather than just making them a bigger target. The disruption of agility may also be more helpful for turret based weapons than just a signature increase as it will allow the ability to out maneuver targets by decreasing their angular velocity and slow their acceleration.
I think doing this would give them much more usability in most pvp aspects, and may even make them worthwhile to fit on non-bonused ship hulls.
Could this work? Any other suggestions for changes to Target Painters? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3109
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Posted - 2017.01.20 03:57:19 -
[2] - Quote
Target painters are fine, stop trying to make that oversized AB armor bellicose happen, it's not going to happen.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE
627
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Posted - 2017.01.20 04:11:42 -
[3] - Quote
Could be a nice tool for kiters. Have to think about it. The question is more if the TP needs a buff like that.
At the other hand, i allways thought it would be cool if Target painters would increase the Heat Damage a ship get's from overloading it's Modules as a secondary effect. Same % amount as the Signatur Radius increase. Don't know exactly why but that nice, red beam crys out for it somehow.... |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
3110
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Posted - 2017.01.20 04:48:12 -
[4] - Quote
Rovinia wrote:Could be a nice tool for kiters.
Because that really needs a little something extra.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Shu t'Me
31
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Posted - 2017.01.20 07:45:03 -
[5] - Quote
Deckel wrote:and may even make them worthwhile to fit on non-bonused ship hulls. If you think painters aren't worth putting on a non-bonused hull, you don't know how they work. The sig bloom from just a single non-bonused painter helps a lot if you're shooting a single size category down. |
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
32
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Posted - 2017.01.20 07:54:30 -
[6] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Target painters are fine, stop trying to make that oversized AB armor bellicose happen, it's not going to happen.
lol, you remember that huh? In any case this particular change wouldn't really do much to make that fitting much more viable, besides making it a little more useful in close range fast fights maybe, which it would do for any Bellicose, and that is exactly what I think target painting is missing, an option to make them viable at a closer range, rather than as a sniping aid or being disengaged 50-100 km away from any fight.to ensure safety. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5189
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Posted - 2017.01.20 08:04:22 -
[7] - Quote
No, but yes, but no... but yes, but no. Nope. Definitely nope.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3537
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Posted - 2017.01.20 08:08:02 -
[8] - Quote
... sounds like what you want is a long web. good news a lot of TP ships have just that
BLOPS Hauler
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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
32
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Posted - 2017.01.20 08:14:58 -
[9] - Quote
Shu t'Me wrote:Deckel wrote:and may even make them worthwhile to fit on non-bonused ship hulls. If you think painters aren't worth putting on a non-bonused hull, you don't know how they work. The sig bloom from just a single non-bonused painter helps a lot if you're shooting a single size category down.
A single tracking computer usually works better, and is more versatile though, This means its use is pretty much invalidated for most damage application cases in exceptionally small groups or 1 vs 1 cases.
When the target painters can intrude as a practical form of ewar in 1vs1 frigate/destroyer combat or ships of similar size, then I may consider them being in a good spot, but if their only use is to allow big ships to shoot smaller ships then I think they are lacking. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3537
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Posted - 2017.01.20 08:59:29 -
[10] - Quote
not every tool is for every job
tracking computers are better 1v1 however even in small gangs you and your friends fit with a couple tps rather than everyone with a sebo tends to work far better and frees up mids on a couple of the ships
If TPs were just flat always better there would be an issue. i mean would you use ECM on an unbonesed ship in 1v1? even damps have a very narrow area where 1v1 they are useful
E-war is meant to be a force multiplier so the more base force the more they are useful.
BLOPS Hauler
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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
32
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Posted - 2017.01.20 09:42:15 -
[11] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:not every tool is for every job
tracking computers are better 1v1 however even in small gangs you and your friends fit with a couple tps rather than everyone with a sebo tends to work far better and frees up mids on a couple of the ships
If TPs were just flat always better there would be an issue. i mean would you use ECM on an unbonesed ship in 1v1? even damps have a very narrow area where 1v1 they are useful
E-war is meant to be a force multiplier so the more base force the more they are useful.
There is a difference between will usually not use, and never use. There are many solo pvp fits that do use unbonused ewar, as they all have their place and can all be beneficially used in selective fights. TPs though only have a place within the group.
Just as Damps and Tracking disruptors have benefited from the use of scripts to apply a versatility of how they disrupt their opponent, I would really like to see Target painters receive a similar treatment. Versatility of use is important in a module as mundane as a target painter. To get this versatility it needs to have a secondary effect and I think an agility detrimental effect would most suit it. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3537
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Posted - 2017.01.20 10:11:37 -
[12] - Quote
what fits see unboniced racial ecm in solo pvp? there are plenty of mods in this game that are have areas in the game they are useless this is a good thing. you don't want a mod that is able to fill a place in every role
BLOPS Hauler
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Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Sherwood Hisec Industrial Technologies
309
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Posted - 2017.01.20 19:56:21 -
[13] - Quote
No thank you.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1577
|
Posted - 2017.01.20 22:45:55 -
[14] - Quote
Deckel wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Target painters are fine, stop trying to make that oversized AB armor bellicose happen, it's not going to happen. lol, you remember that huh? In any case this particular change wouldn't really do much to make that fitting much more viable, besides making it a little more useful in close range fast fights maybe, which it would do for any Bellicose, and that is exactly what I think target painting is missing, an option to make them viable at a closer range, rather than as a sniping aid or being disengaged 50-100 km away from any fight.to ensure safety.
Here is what you do with the bellicose https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioe5cLXxJBc
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
32
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Posted - 2017.01.21 03:11:53 -
[15] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Deckel wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Target painters are fine, stop trying to make that oversized AB armor bellicose happen, it's not going to happen. lol, you remember that huh? In any case this particular change wouldn't really do much to make that fitting much more viable, besides making it a little more useful in close range fast fights maybe, which it would do for any Bellicose, and that is exactly what I think target painting is missing, an option to make them viable at a closer range, rather than as a sniping aid or being disengaged 50-100 km away from any fight.to ensure safety. Here is what you do with the bellicose https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioe5cLXxJBc
Lol, I laughed as I watched that and remembered many of the wtf moments I had while I questioned the ship design when I had been trying to make a fit for it. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1577
|
Posted - 2017.01.21 08:16:02 -
[16] - Quote
Then that is a mission accomplished :-)
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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erittainvarma
Fistful of Finns WE FORM V0LTA
40
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Posted - 2017.01.22 10:48:50 -
[17] - Quote
I don't think that target painters really need any buff. If ship happens to have midslot to spare and fleet already has enough points and webs, it's painter that is going to go that slot, not tracking disruptor, damp or ecm. |
Cristl
531
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Posted - 2017.01.22 16:55:12 -
[18] - Quote
I think target painters are in an okay place. They can't be countered, and not all ewar must be equal anyway (although with alpha clones race-locked they shouldn't be too disparate either *stealth alpha grumble*)
There's something wrong with this CCP logic though:
1) TPs don't give as good an application bonus as webs, but they have long range instead
well, okay then what about:
2) TP ships like the Bellicose have appalling targeting range.
Seriously, just check you've not got any decent implants in and grab a bloody Vigil. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3546
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Posted - 2017.01.22 16:57:51 -
[19] - Quote
Cristl wrote:(although with alpha clones race-locked they shouldn't be too disparate either *stealth alpha grumble*)
since they are
A) free
and
B) can have as many as they want alphas are irrelevant when balancing
BLOPS Hauler
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Cristl
531
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Posted - 2017.01.22 17:31:07 -
[20] - Quote
Yeah, but if one race has clearly better alpha options then space will look more bland when 90% of alphas are of the same race flying the same ships, so it's still important.
By your logic ships didn't need to be balanced at all before alpha clones either, since we could all fly all ships. So every T1 combat cruiser could have been a Caracal and that would be balanced. That would be true, logically, but also boring. There still needs to be a nice variety. Not perfect balance, but I don't want all guides to start saying: "...always make a Gallente character...", for example. |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3546
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Posted - 2017.01.22 18:15:49 -
[21] - Quote
not all ships are as useful as others though so your logic fall flat. all ships need is a place that they are the better option and have a point to exist and no ship should be the defacto go to for almost all situations. however one ship can by all means be less usefull in general to us than another same with weapon systems and e-war
BLOPS Hauler
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Cristl
531
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Posted - 2017.01.22 18:29:19 -
[22] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:not all ships are as useful as others though so your logic fall flat. all ships need is a place that they are the better option and have a point to exist and no ship should be the defacto go to for almost all situations. however one ship can by all means be less usefull in general to us than another same with weapon systems and e-war Are you stoned, mate?
Here are my opening two sentences, I'll underline for emphasis:
I think target painters are in an okay place. They can't be countered, and not all ewar must be equal anyway (although with alpha clones race-locked they shouldn't be too disparate either *stealth alpha grumble*)
So, in case you're having trouble grasping this:
1) I think target painters are okay 2) I believe different ewar modules can be unequal in general usefulness, but 3) I believe they shouldn't be too dissimilar in power either
You say "your logic fall flat" (sic), and then basically restate exactly my points. What?! |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3546
|
Posted - 2017.01.22 19:00:33 -
[23] - Quote
not even what i was responding to did you just blank out your last post?
BLOPS Hauler
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Cristl
531
|
Posted - 2017.01.22 19:10:49 -
[24] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:not even what i was responding to did you just blank out your last post? No, you can check that it's unedited.
Explain more clearly what you have issue with, you seem to be focusing on a tiny comment made parenthetically, and not really focusing too much on the whole point of the thread, which is where target painters sit in the current 'meta'. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3546
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Posted - 2017.01.22 20:07:02 -
[25] - Quote
that would be because the entire reply was to the comment that was over half your post
BLOPS Hauler
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Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
180
|
Posted - 2017.01.23 08:34:10 -
[26] - Quote
Deckel wrote:I won't deny that Target painters are useful, they are. Increasing damage application is important, especially in medium and large groups and when large ships engage small ones, but the situations where they are more useful than the disruptive types of Ewar are few and far between. I think they should be more useful than they currently are and so make the following suggestion.
I would suggest that target painters become able to apply to their targets an additional negative affect to Agility, on top of Signature, and then have optimization scripts to focus on one or the other.
I think this will make them more useful in close range combat and give the option towards applying an actual disruptive effect to opponents rather than just making them a bigger target. The disruption of agility may also be more helpful for turret based weapons than just a signature increase as it will allow the ability to out maneuver targets by decreasing their angular velocity and slow their acceleration.
I think doing this would give them much more usability in most pvp aspects, and may even make them worthwhile to fit on non-bonused ship hulls.
Could this work? Any other suggestions for changes to Target Painters?
Leave them like they are. They are not bad and not broken.
-1 |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2446
|
Posted - 2017.01.24 17:53:51 -
[27] - Quote
Deckel wrote:Shu t'Me wrote:Deckel wrote:and may even make them worthwhile to fit on non-bonused ship hulls. If you think painters aren't worth putting on a non-bonused hull, you don't know how they work. The sig bloom from just a single non-bonused painter helps a lot if you're shooting a single size category down. A single tracking computer usually works better, and is more versatile though, This means its use is pretty much invalidated for most damage application cases in exceptionally small groups or 1 vs 1 cases. When the target painters can intrude as a practical form of ewar in 1vs1 frigate/destroyer combat or ships of similar size, then I may consider them being in a good spot, but if their only use is to allow big ships to shoot smaller ships then I think they are lacking.
The single tracking computer works better for the ship it's fitted to. The single tracking computer does nothing for the other ships in the gang. A TP on the other hand spoons out luvin' for everyone on your side. You seem to be solo focused, which is cool, but Eve isn't and never will be solo focused.
Being able to get at a ships agility isn't a bad idea for a module, but don't bundle it with a target painter. |
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