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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:16:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: ry ry since it's technically an out of game arrangement, i suppose they might give your cash back.
i'd imagine whoever bought your character is desperately spending and transferring all the cash he can so they don't take it off him.
If CCP decide that it is in the wrong, he will end at -8.8 billion.
They take the isk even if that put the character at negative isk.
And that is not nice, as he can't even put intem on sale (require isk for the sales tax), refine loot and so on.
Will have a fun life for a period .
although if CCP decide it's wrong, and he hasn't spent anything he'll end on 0, surely?
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:34:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Na'Kunni
Originally by: ry ry since it's technically an out of game arrangement, i suppose they might give your cash back.
i'd imagine whoever bought your character is desperately spending and transferring all the cash he can so they don't take it off him.
They still take you cash off you even if you don't have it, you get a debt with the market, so if they did decide to take his money of him, an he has around 100mil isk left, then he will go into a -8.7bil debt with the market an basically his character will be unable to buy anything, until he has recoverd the money.
Not only that, he will also be unable to sell stuff(due to fees) or make contracts or docking at stations that have even a minimal docking fee or even contacting anyone who has a CSPA fee active. As other people pointed out that character will by most definitions be completly useless. He would basicly be forced to shoot npcs till he gets his 8 billion back, or get someone to loan him the money.
But what really worries me is the total lack of both morals and legal understanding thats going on here by some people. I really hope, and i honestly mean that not in a derogative way, that you are still minors and dont have to worry about that stuff yet anyway.
If you buy a car, hand the owner the money, who has a bad day and puts it in the backseat of the car which you then drive off with(aware of this error of his), your stealing. Just think about it, just because something is in your car/yard/pants/wherever does not mean it belongs to you, what kind of world would that be? The nice police man stopping you would politely ask for the the contract of the carsale, and than look for the part which mentions the 1k$ on the left backseat.
I dont know how ccp will handle this, but unless the 8 bil are mentioned in the deal as part of the characters wallet he got more than he paid for. One could even argue that the op didnt get payed for the character since the order in which the single steps are done is completly irrelevant. It doesnt matter at which point the character gets transferred, the obligation to pay for it remains. Also since there is reallife money involved in this its automatically a agreement between two people, and not between two characters in a game anymore.
P.S. Ofc thats just my understanding of this, but i imagine ccp will be very firm in these things as there is reallife money involved. Its different than accidently sending someone isk, in the real world if you accidently hand someone over to much money he cant just run off giggleing like a mad schoolgirl ... well unless she IS a mad schoolgirl maybe.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:44:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Marlenus
All the arguments from morality and out-of-game law are out the window here. This is a game, people, a game where piracy (one of the most brutal and sordid crimes known to humanity) is enshrined as a high art. The game is about accumulating virtual stuff, by hook or by crook or by virtual ransom and murder, and real world morality simply don't enter into it.
No this is not game, scamming people for reallife money is never a game, not even if its written in the eula, as its against the law. Why do you think ccp disallows any kind of GTC or character scams? Out of niceness? No they disallow it because there are real life values involved, if you scam someone to pay 500mil isk for a cruiser its not against the law, as everything in the game belongs to ccp anyway and its part of the game as you said, so nothing got stolen. But if you pay 20Ç for a character, thats your 20Ç.
Assoon as there are real life values involved you can be damn sure real life law gets applied. You cant just suck 20Ç into a magical world where law doesnt exist.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:46:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Bentula But what really worries me is the total lack of both morals and legal understanding thats going on here by some people. I really hope, and i honestly mean that not in a derogative way, that you are still minors and dont have to worry about that stuff yet anyway.
eve has no real legal system to understand, and even if you try to transpose real-worl legalities onto a computergame, you're still going to struggle to decide which set of laws to apply since there are potentially 3+ countries involved.
I hope that anybody who feels the need to suggest that applying real-world laws to pretend worlds full of imaginary people is somehow an indication of maturity doesn't apply the same logic to watching TV and reading books.
"Hello? is that the police? yeah, i just saw Hannibal and Mr.T escape from a military stockade. i believe they may be hiding in the los angeles underground. hello? are you still there?"
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:47:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Bentula No this is not game, scamming people for reallife money is never a game, not even if its written in the eula, as its against the law.
there was no scam.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:48:00 -
[66]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Bentula But what really worries me is the total lack of both morals and legal understanding thats going on here by some people. I really hope, and i honestly mean that not in a derogative way, that you are still minors and dont have to worry about that stuff yet anyway.
eve has no real legal system to understand, and even if you try to transpose real-worl legalities onto a computergame, you're still going to struggle to decide which set of laws to apply since there are potentially 3+ countries involved.
I hope that anybody who feels the need to suggest that applying real-world laws to pretend worlds full of imaginary people is somehow an indication of maturity doesn't apply the same logic to watching TV and reading books.
"Hello? is that the police? yeah, i just saw Hannibal and Mr.T escape from a military stockade. i believe they may be hiding in the los angeles underground. hello? are you still there?"
Read up, there was a person suggesting that driving off with 1k $ in the backseat is perfectly ok, thats what i meant.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:50:00 -
[67]
1. Real life laws in most western places are indeed extremely complicated, and the "common sense" approach used by the car dealer example doesnt apply.
The complex legal constructs of contract and possession laws are made even more complicated by playing golf with judges and generally being rich.
2. CCP can only lose with this event, as a lot of shady elements are waiting on a decision with bated breath.
The fact that most people didnt even realise the threat shows how easy it is to abuse pitty and "morals" for your own benefits.
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Bosie
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:55:00 -
[68]
It's harsh but you did a very silly thing and it's not CCP's role to reimburse you for doing a stupid thing whilst tired. CCP are going to loose either way on this one. Good luck on this one.
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND." |
Dregann
Amarr Trading Company
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:58:00 -
[69]
What was the name of the char that you sold?
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.20 15:59:00 -
[70]
Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 15:56:00
Originally by: Dregann What was the name of the char that you sold?
i'd imagine ProtectoriesFormerOwner formerly owned Protectorie.
i could be wrong.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:02:00 -
[71]
If CCP does not do something about it then this thread shall end up all over the place and you wont see any more subscribers.
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Jezala
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:02:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Jezala on 20/04/2007 15:58:44 If you have clearly documented exactly what the agreed assets are that would be transfered over with the character then there's a good chance you'll get your isk back.
...and yes, we do sell and deliver ammo. 425 Express Delivery is available upon request, please see Hans Gates and Marcus Grisbius regarding this option. |
Leneerra
Minmatar Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:02:00 -
[73]
Sorry to hear about your mistake, and as an honest mistake the recipient could return it.
What I do not understand is him refusing the convo's The very least he could have gloated about all the free isk you gave him. I mean a little conversation is not too much to ask for 8.8Bil right?
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:04:00 -
[74]
Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 16:03:08
Originally by: SiJira If CCP does not do something about it then this thread shall end up all over the place and you wont see any more subscribers.
if CCP do anything about it they'd legitimise a whole bunch of nonsence petitions.
whilst i sympathise with the OP, it was his in-game mistake. there is no way in the world CCP should, or indeed could, refund it without undermining their position on not giving "i ****** up and now i want my stuff back" petitions the time of day.
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Dregann
Amarr Trading Company
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:06:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Dregann on 20/04/2007 16:02:42
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 15:56:00
Originally by: Dregann What was the name of the char that you sold?
i'd imagine ProtectoriesFormerOwner formerly owned Protectorie.
i could be wrong.
/me smashed head on keyboard
thanks didnt see his name lol
@ op I how it all gets sorted for ya soon
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Linerra Tedora
Amarr The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:15:00 -
[76]
out of pure curiousity, please let us know how it goes.
on that note, sorry for your loss. But this thing can swing both ways still. It all depends on what the gm's decide, as it's not a clear scam.
Also remember, if you are unsatisfied with the first descision, you can have it moved upward to a senior GM.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:19:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Linerra Tedora out of pure curiousity, please let us know how it goes.
Actualy, don't tell us how it goes.
Might get messy for GM's in the future if we get to know you got refunded.
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Del Narveux
Obsidian Angels Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:25:00 -
[78]
Ohh man that really sucks dude. Hopefully youll get your stuff back. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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Raeff
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:36:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Raeff on 20/04/2007 16:37:55 Whats all this "technically he doesnt have to give it back" and "ccp looses either way" bulls**t? Are you f**king serious? The way laws are so slaughtered and twisted these days makes me sick. How bout doing whats "right" for a change? The dude made an honest mistake and deserves to get his isk back. PERIOD! This isnt like throwing a shuttle on contract and calling it a CNR and putting a 700mil price on it. This isnt part of the game.
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Draxelion Sofather
Caldari Sequential Digits
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:03:00 -
[80]
I, too, am baffled by the people who think this mistake is the same type of deal as not looking at a contract and losing a bunch of isk to a scam.
Unlike losing isk to a typical in-game scam, or even a random isk sending mistake etc etc, this involved a character sale. Character sales are strictly protected by CCP because real money is involved and because there is no "secure method" to officially sell a character in which the buyer and seller will both instantly get the good they agreed upon at the click of a button.
If the deal was "You give me 8.8 billion isk and I will give you this character" and, during the transfer process, a slip up occured (I dont care HOW it happened!) which effectivly made it so a character was given away for free, AND the seller lost $20 to transfer the character, the GMs should definatly make things right. It is obvious that 8.8b isk was NOT part of what the buyer was buying, and the seller tried to make it blatantly obvious to the buyer, then petitioned to the GMs when the buyer would not talk.
Hey, I got a new scam idea! I put my 40m SP character up for auction. Just before the winner trasnfers the 14b isk to me, I will edit my auction post and say "This character is no longer for sale." If all goes well, the winner won't notice the edit and in best situation, he may evne send the 14b isk to me 6 or 7 minutes after my edit! When I get 14b isk in my wallet I'll act surprised and then say to the guy "Why did you send me 14b isk? I am no longer auctioning my character. I closed it 6 minutes ago, didnt you read the forum? The seller has the right to not sale his character if he choses. Since the auction has already been closed, I can only assume you just gave this 14b isk to me as a free gift. Good bye" *block*.
If the guy petitions, the GMs will CLEARLY be able to see that I had indeed closed the aution MINUTES before the fellow sent the 14b isk! No sir, I am no scammer. Blah blah blah.
Uh huh...
This is a clear case, cut and dry, easy decision. Give the seller of the character the ISK. Duh?
It's a character sale, involving real money, and protection from GMs, and a documented official forum thread. I know you people are used to Jita local, but some parts of the game involve the "real world." In the "real world" this type of stuff is not tolerated.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:03:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Avon on 20/04/2007 17:00:44
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 16:03:08
Originally by: SiJira If CCP does not do something about it then this thread shall end up all over the place and you wont see any more subscribers.
if CCP do anything about it they'd legitimise a whole bunch of nonsence petitions.
whilst i sympathise with the OP, it was his in-game mistake. there is no way in the world CCP should, or indeed could, refund it without undermining their position on not giving "i ****** up and now i want my stuff back" petitions the time of day.
Unfortunately, no matter who is at fault, CCP will have to recover the ISK, and probably ban the account of one, or possibly both, players. You see, this isn't a completely ingame situation as real money was involved in the transaction. CCP can't afford to be put in a situation where litigation is possible, no matter the outcome, because it potentially opens the "real world value" can of worms that MMOGs avoid like the plague.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Lobo Noturno
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:09:00 -
[82]
From the perspective of the rules set by CCP, I would say there was no scam involved, and that whomever forgot to secure the assets, or mistakenly left 8.8 bill on the char that was to be transfered has no right to claim the isk back.
If the buyer have any ethics, he should give the isk back. When you pay for something, you expect the isk to go away and the item or character to be delivered. Nothing more, nothing less. Keeping isk that was sent you by mistake shows a profound lack of respect for other individuals. Everybody make mistakes, but when someone takes advantage of other peoples mistakes, even if lawful, he's showing he doesn't understand the concepts of justice and fairness, or at least don't follow these precepts.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:14:00 -
[83]
If CCP doesn't give back your isk they are a bunch of *** .
But I am quite confident that they will resolve that matter.
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Wendat Huron
Lupus Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:17:00 -
[84]
Never ever trade anything while tired.
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Celestra Ambrose
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:33:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Celestra Ambrose on 20/04/2007 17:34:39
Originally by: Lobo Noturno From the perspective of the rules set by CCP, I would say there was no scam involved, and that whomever forgot to secure the assets, or mistakenly left 8.8 bill on the char that was to be transfered has no right to claim the isk back.
This wasn't a scam by the sounds of it.
If CCP allow the buyer to keep the isk AND the character they may as well kiss good bye to a whole lot of $20 transfer fees. People will soon lose faith in the character transfer option if they're offered no protection should they happen to make an honest mistake whilst using it.
Hypothetical question...
What would CCP's recourse be if someone transfered a character to the wrong account? I'm sure this may have happened in the past where a simple spelling mistake in the account transfer box has been made and the character ends up on the wrong account.
Does the one who receives the character get to keep it since he had no idea where it came from and thus never scammed anyone to get it?
Obsurd isn't it? Same thing with this deal imho. CCP need to put right the simple mistake made by the OP and give him his isk and remove it from the buyer. It wasn't a scam, it was an honest mistake.
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Emma Royd
Caldari Ravished Husk Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:37:00 -
[86]
While I feel very sorry for PFO and I hope that either CCP come up with a solution or the buyer sees some decency and forwards the isk, I doubt very much this will happen.
You can't compare real life values to in-game values, as they are as far apart as you can get, with theft, ganking, piracy are rife in the game with no real come-backs, it is all too easy to start another character to transfer stuff from your "bad" character who's developed a name for being an ore thief etc and then retire the bad character and carry on.
I have morals, and play the game with them, I don't pirate, gank, thieve etc, but know and accept that people do, it's just not my style of play.
All the best in getting the money back, but don't hold your breath.
It's not often I'm wrong, apart from the comments I make in the signature, and then I'm often wrong. On the other hand maybe I'm getting confused. ......My head hurts :( |
Bklyn 1
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:37:00 -
[87]
Originally by: BAndOfDevs
Its like this.. I go buy a car, I pay the guy 1k for the car. The dood signs the car over to me. In the process the seller leaves the 1k on the back seat of the car. I drive away with said vehical.
There is no legal recorse the seller can turn to in this case.. (Bar a civil lawsuit) Witch he would not win.
Cheers
Not true. As a rl attorney, the guy would get his 1k back, at least in my jurisdiction.
I really don't understand those of you who say the seller voluntarily gave the buyer 8bil isk after the transaction. If you read the post, it was a mistake, not a gift and not part of the transaction. For a gift to occur (in rl law anyway), there must be intent to make a gift.
The classic example they give you in law school is, let's say your neighbor hires a company to paint his house. By mistake, they come and paint your house. You are sitting on a lawn chair drinking a margarita, watching them paint your house. After they paint it, they say, "pay us" and you say "haha, I never hired you, you were supposed to paint my neighbor's house, noob!" Under the law, you have to pay them the fair market value for the goods and services you received, even though there was not contract, no agreement.
This is known as quantum meruit. There is also something called unjust enrichment, which would also seem to apply. Not going to get into that now.
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Malcanis
High4Life
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:43:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Speed Devil you lost it because of your own stupidity. ccp should not give back your money since the buyer did nothing wrong.
He already admitted that he was stupid to do what he did.
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Lucky Lynn
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Posted - 2007.04.20 18:01:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 20/04/2007 17:00:44
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 16:03:08
Originally by: SiJira If CCP does not do something about it then this thread shall end up all over the place and you wont see any more subscribers.
if CCP do anything about it they'd legitimise a whole bunch of nonsence petitions.
whilst i sympathise with the OP, it was his in-game mistake. there is no way in the world CCP should, or indeed could, refund it without undermining their position on not giving "i ****** up and now i want my stuff back" petitions the time of day.
Unfortunately, no matter who is at fault, CCP will have to recover the ISK, and probably ban the account of one, or possibly both, players. You see, this isn't a completely ingame situation as real money was involved in the transaction. CCP can't afford to be put in a situation where litigation is possible, no matter the outcome, because it potentially opens the "real world value" can of worms that MMOGs avoid like the plague.
I have to agree with this. Sucks that it has be this way.
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Thesas
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.20 18:10:00 -
[90]
This really is open and shut.
It was a legitimate transaction even beyond the mistake being made. It became a scam with the party blocked further communication.
It is perfectly clear what CCP will do.
This is not a game play issue, it is an account transaction issue.
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