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Patrice Macmahon
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
42
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Posted - 2017.01.26 15:22:33 -
[1] - Quote
Since coming back to the game, I've seen a distinct trend in how players are fitting their Kronos, and I would appreciate alternate perspectives to understand why, or understand if a game mechanic has changed to cause the shift.
People are fitting blasters on their Kronos. - In my opinion, it should be rails.
Level IV missioning is about damage application at range. The larger your range, the faster you can switch and apply damage to the next ship in the next agro pocket. The raw DPS difference between a Blaster Kronos and a Rail Kronos with DPS fits is in the neighborhood of 150-200 dps at short range. Blasters with anti-mater push only 400-450 DPS at 45-60km (Fighting in falloff), and they are about even if you use the T2 ammo VS rail anti-matter (increasing ammunition costs dramatically).
Blasters have better tracking, but if a BS rat is within 20-30km of you, you drop out of bastion mode, fire up the AB and you can apply full DPS by flying manual to lower angular velocity.
So for level IV's the consistant average of rails is pegged at 800 dps, while the blasters range from 900-450 dps, and you have to motor in or do MJD shinanigans to apply your full dps.
That's what I understand it to be. Am I missing something here? Why are people insisting on blaster fitting their Kronos?
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á
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Victor Osinov
Yaro Corporation
5
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Posted - 2017.01.26 15:38:19 -
[2] - Quote
M8, there is no wrong, no right fits. Fit it how you like to play.
If you want to blitz lvl4, then choose a different ship. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5224
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Posted - 2017.01.26 15:54:49 -
[3] - Quote
There are some missions where you can absolutely wreck havoc with blasters as the NPCs are all within 40km. There are also some missions where the NPCs spawn at extreme ranges and a MJD is preferable. Again, it really comes down to personal preference and you really can't go wrong with either.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Patrice Macmahon
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
42
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Posted - 2017.01.26 16:25:46 -
[4] - Quote
So it's not a game mechanic shift then. Okiday.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á
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hmskrecik
The Scope Gallente Federation
232
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Posted - 2017.01.26 16:28:50 -
[5] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:Why are people insisting on blaster fitting their Kronos? With proper navigation and handling blasters perform better. Rails are easier to use though and said performance difference isn't that terrrible too.
The best way is to have both sets of guns on board and equip those which are better suited for given mission (e.g. don't even try Damsel in Distress with rails). |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
749
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Posted - 2017.01.26 16:49:18 -
[6] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:don't even try Damsel in Distress with rails Yes, the proper way to do Damsel is with Tachyons. I recently did that mission with blasters; it's not even close. Tachy's are much, much better.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Patrice Macmahon
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
42
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:03:26 -
[7] - Quote
That doesn't make sense. Rails can blitz and full clear Damsel just fine (under 14 minutes). Full bounties in a single "Tick". Use an AB to get angular down and you mow through the cruisers that get to close.
THATS the paradigm shift I'm talking about that I don't understand. Are you bastioning the Kronos and not flying manual on anything?
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
1106
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:16:22 -
[8] - Quote
Prefer rails my self on a Kronos that way range is not an issue and bastion is there just to reduce tank slots compared to blaster Kronos that require both propulsion and bastion for it to works properly usual it require both at same time and that's more of a hassle than enjoyment for me.
Have both see what fits you best I drop blasters from cargo hold don't see urgency for them for few missions.
Typhoon Fleet Issue SOE skin for the win.
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Sarmatiko
1724
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:19:59 -
[9] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:The best way is to have both sets of guns on board and equip those which are better suited for given mission (e.g. don't even try Damsel in Distress with rails). You know that you can just blow up Pleasure garden in like one minute with rails from safe distance, make bookmark on container/Zor wreck, warp out and complete mission with second Damsel, right? That's how you blitz Damsel properly.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
749
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:20:37 -
[10] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:That doesn't make sense. Rails can blitz and full clear Damsel just fine (under 14 minutes). Full bounties in a single "Tick". Use an AB to get angular down and you mow through the cruisers that get to close.
THATS the paradigm shift I'm talking about that I don't understand. Are you bastioning the Kronos and not flying manual? There's a difference between "cleared this mission in one tick", and "cleared this mission and got halfway through the next one in one tick".
It's just a matter of preference, flying style, and mission/NPC spawn ranges. Blasters are definitely harder to use, but if you can do precise movements and either MWD or jump around enough, you'll get better clear times than rails. The trick is getting it to work. MJD is probably your most valuable tool to make it work.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
90
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:23:42 -
[11] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:
That's what I understand it to be. Am I missing something here? Why are people insisting on blaster fitting their Kronos?
From the DPS figures you posted I'd say you missed Null ammo entirely and the fact that missions you seem to get are not the missions other people might be getting. NPCs keeping an orbit of 50+ kms is certainly not what I've been encountering in my missions in Gallente space. For the rare exceptions there is always a possibility to just swap to rails with ease.
My reasons for fitting blasters are usually following:
- I prefer killing frigates with guns instead of drones, blasters are better at this at short ranges, partly because of cycle times, partly because of tracking. You also can kill frigates as far as 80km in a very reasonable time.
- In certain missions you can place your ship on top of spawns and keep blasting at 1400-1600 dps. In most missions I rarely sit farther away than 40 kms from my targets.
- Faction AM ammo costs a lot more than Null or Void.
- Actively positioning my ship near enemy NPCs - and I mean by analyzing mission spawns once and planning ahead for the best spot to sit in, not just wildly MWDing around - allows for much better loot and salvage yield with very little effort during the mission.
- I ran both rail and blaster fits and usually blasters deliver faster completion times for me. Most extreme example was 16:30 mins(fastest, usually around 18-20 mins) with blasters vs 30+ minutes with rails in Seprentis Blockade, full clear.
My reasons to be annoyed by blaster Kronos:
- If you take a break and forget how to run the missions - ie proper spots to place your ship into, when to fit MJD or MWD etc - the efficiency drops quite dramatically. I really dislike doing Angel Extravaganza for that very reason. - Can't be as lazy as a tachyon Paladin. |
Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
90
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:33:46 -
[12] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:hmskrecik wrote:The best way is to have both sets of guns on board and equip those which are better suited for given mission (e.g. don't even try Damsel in Distress with rails). You know that you can just blow up Pleasure garden in like one minute with rails from safe distance, make bookmark on container/Zor wreck, warp out and complete mission with second Damsel, right? That's how you blitz Damsel properly. You can also just drop the MTU at your warp in and MJD straight trough Pleasure Garden and back, and then scoop the Damsel from your MTU. A couple of seconds longer but no need for a secons Damsel. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5226
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:47:54 -
[13] - Quote
You can also shoot the Damsel. Sometimes it's just as satisfying as blitzing...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
2501
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:48:11 -
[14] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:That doesn't make sense. Rails can blitz and full clear Damsel just fine (under 14 minutes). Full bounties in a single "Tick". Use an AB to get angular down and you mow through the cruisers that get to close.
THATS the paradigm shift I'm talking about that I don't understand. Are you bastioning the Kronos and not flying manual? blasters just do it faster, In Damsel everything spawns within 30km and flies straight at you. At 15km you can do 1500+ dps with void, at 30km you are doing 1100+ with null. Rails barely break 1k
That said that is just one mission there are other missions where the projection of rails may be better. You can always just swap between rails/blasters depending on the mission.
@ChainsawPlankto
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hmskrecik
The Scope Gallente Federation
232
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Posted - 2017.01.26 21:52:04 -
[15] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:That doesn't make sense. Rails can blitz and full clear Damsel just fine (under 14 minutes). Full bounties in a single "Tick". Use an AB to get angular down and you mow through the cruisers that get to close.
THATS the paradigm shift I'm talking about that I don't understand. Are you bastioning the Kronos and not flying manual? Blasters with full clear, damsel in cargo, Zor, his aunt and her dog dead, used to take me a little below 5 minutes from landing on grid. Recently I had it at 6 or 7 because I had long break from the game and forgot a bit or two about target priorities, esp. for drones.
And yes, this is this is balls-to-the-wall, shoot-em-in-the-face way of doing the mission. Start with Nulls and shoot little stuff, meanwhile crawl to the proper garden. When at 4km from it, bastion up. Faction Antimatter to kill battleships, destroy garden with Void. |
hmskrecik
The Scope Gallente Federation
232
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Posted - 2017.01.26 21:58:26 -
[16] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:That said that is just one mission there are other missions where the projection of rails may be better. You can always just swap between rails/blasters depending on the mission. My point exactly.
I'd say for most missions rails are just easier, need less micromanagement, but recently I recalled hard way that first and second room in Serpentis Vengeance is WAY better with blasters.
Even then I'm far from being dogmatic. To anyone, if in doubt, just run mission once this and then that way and decide which one you like better. |
aldhura
Vanilla.Corp
110
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:01:37 -
[17] - Quote
When I fly mine I use rails with web a TC's they work just fine |
Patrice Macmahon
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
42
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:02:22 -
[18] - Quote
@ Chainsaw - I don't remember blasters being this effective at level IV's.
Fair point.
For comparison, with an 800 DPS Rail fit, I can do a full clear on Dread Pilot Scarlet in 16 minutes against Blood Raider / Guristas. 18 million bounty tick. I take it that is a case of right tool for the right job on that one.
Do you utilize a MWD to close ranges effectively or is it all MJD shinanigans. I first got in my Kronos pre-MJD and bastion module, so I may have some hold overs from learning how to fly it back then.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á
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hmskrecik
The Scope Gallente Federation
232
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:13:03 -
[19] - Quote
Inir Ishtori wrote: - In certain missions you can place your ship on top of spawns and keep blasting at 1400-1600 dps. In most missions I rarely sit farther away than 40 kms from my targets.
Yes, if you can position yourself there (my personal best tick: 25mil after particular mission of Amarr Epic Arc when doing exactly that). On the other hand in certain missions you have quite spaced spawns forcing you either to fit propulsion or to perform double-MJD trick.
Quote: - Faction AM ammo costs a lot more than Null or Void.
This argument is null and void, pun intended. First off, this cost is not that higher, if at all. And secondly it is quickly recouped esp. considering ammo conservation bonus of Marauders.
Quote: - I ran both rail and blaster fits and usually blasters deliver faster completion times for me. Most extreme example was 16:30 mins(fastest, usually around 18-20 mins) with blasters vs 30+ minutes with rails in Seprentis Blockade, full clear.
Nice time. I never been able to get it that low. Although with rails, since introducing bastion I have been consistently completing this mission under one tick. |
Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
6
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:13:42 -
[20] - Quote
They'll both work, some people advocate keeping both to switch between depending on missions. I'm almost married to MWD Blaster fits though. Honestly for a L4 either will work just fine |
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hmskrecik
The Scope Gallente Federation
232
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:20:28 -
[21] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:I first got in my Kronos pre-MJD and bastion module, so I may have some hold overs from learning how to fly it back then. The thing which may have slipped your attention is the falloff bonus given to Kronos in that balanding round. |
Patrice Macmahon
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
42
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:20:57 -
[22] - Quote
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:They'll both work, some people advocate keeping both to switch between depending on missions. I'm almost married to MWD Blaster fits though. Honestly for a L4 either will work just fine
It's about overall efficiency. That's why I asked about the meta shift. It seems that things have migrated to Blaster and though both work well, the efficiency comments seem to skew towards blasters as a whole. Whats the best way to get the most for your time. ^.^
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
470
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:23:13 -
[23] - Quote
I like the Kronos but it doesn't work for every mission. For Damsel, Stop the Thief, Serpentis Blockade, it is good. OTOH Dread Pirate Scarlet would need a MJD to position as the final room ships tend to stay out of optimal and some of the other rooms depending on the NPC type.
Anyway OP, just to clarify about blasters, with Marauders 5 and Large Blaster Spec IV you should be looking at around 1300 dps with Null at ~50km and 1800 dps with Void at ~20km, with Bastion on. |
Patrice Macmahon
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
42
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:35:10 -
[24] - Quote
voetius wrote: I like the Kronos but it doesn't work for every mission. For Damsel, Stop the Thief, Serpentis Blockade, it is good. OTOH Dread Pirate Scarlet would need a MJD to position as the final room ships tend to stay out of optimal and some of the other rooms depending on the NPC type.
Anyway OP, just to clarify about blasters, with Marauders 5 and Large Blaster Spec IV you should be looking at around 1300 dps with Null at ~50km and 1800 dps with Void at ~20km, with Bastion on.
Something's been changed in the numbers then along the way am I'm going to have to find it. It used to be a pretty painful bling fit to get blaster Kronos over 1100.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á
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Patrice Macmahon
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
42
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:44:30 -
[25] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Patrice Macmahon wrote:I first got in my Kronos pre-MJD and bastion module, so I may have some hold overs from learning how to fly it back then. The thing which may have slipped your attention is the falloff bonus given to Kronos in that balanding round.
Bing Bing - I think this explains it. Thank you. *hugs and snuggles*
I'll have to give this a whirl then.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5226
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:53:24 -
[26] - Quote
voetius wrote: I like the Kronos but it doesn't work for every mission. For Damsel, Stop the Thief, Serpentis Blockade, it is good. OTOH Dread Pirate Scarlet would need a MJD to position as the final room ships tend to stay out of optimal and some of the other rooms depending on the NPC type.
Anyway OP, just to clarify about blasters, with Marauders 5 and Large Blaster Spec IV you should be looking at around 1300 dps with Null at ~50km and 1800 dps with Void at ~20km, with Bastion on.
Actually, with max skills, +6 implants and 3x tracking computers you're only looking at around 900 DPS @50km while in Bastion. According to Pyfa a 350mm railgun fit will start to out-DPS neutron blasters at around 45km.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Patrice Macmahon
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
42
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Posted - 2017.01.27 16:05:57 -
[27] - Quote
@ Arthur
I did some testing and such with it last night. Javelin Ammo has come down considerably in price and is now more than viable as a cost effect DPS enhancer, and it bumps up tracking by quite a bit ta boot.
I tried both Blaster and Rails last night running missions. I was still getting faster clear times with rails and Javelin than I was with Blasters and Null. Switching over to Void for close range blaps and burning in with a MWD / MJD combo was not time effective for me and my clear times were slower for the same missions (could be user use).
I utilized a three mag stab, two tracking computer fit - With 5% implants pushes Rails pushed 900+ DPS and inches up higher depending on implants. Blasters were around the 1100 mark. Bling fit and it will go well over 1000 DPS mark (No drones in this calculation) 450mm Rails or Neutrons Tech II, both at spec IV.
Javelin Rails with two tracking computers and Muraders V out DPS's a Blaster Null Kronos at 25km. You can check the EFT dps graph to confirm numbers. Standard Antimater Rails out DPS's the Javelin Rails at 60km. Tracking on the blaster NULL fit was a whopping 6.2, Javelen was 3.2-ish, and standard was around 2.8.
What I found, that by starting engagements wherever I see the rats, utilizing standard antimatter for anything over 60km, and switching to Javelin if they come in closer, no rats got in closer than 34km. And this was for missions like, Angel Extraviganza, Mordues, vengeance, the blockade, downing the slaver 1 of 2 and buzzkill.
From what I saw the ability to apply more damage without needing to move, and instantly switch targets keep mission times low, as overall DPS was consistently higher.
The ability to continually push and sustain 800+ DPS on all targets instantly without having to chase or wait for stuff to get in range was safer and faster than the instant blapping of getting under 30 km on every rat I wanted to instablap. Shooting them further out burns more time and ammo (which I did, dps is dps), as well as chasing them all over the place (which gives up the use of your bastion module for most of the mission pocket).
Rails seem the logical choice, especially with how well Javelin performed.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5227
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Posted - 2017.01.27 17:17:59 -
[28] - Quote
I ran a few comparisons between rail and blaster fits last night as well and would have to agree with the consensus that blasters do not offer a sufficient enough advantage over rails in the majority of mission scenarios. It's too bad, because I really like the Kronos and blasters are a riot - but with the state of PvE in EVE it's to be expected.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
92
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Posted - 2017.01.27 18:33:27 -
[29] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:
Javelin Rails with two tracking computers and Muraders V out DPS's a Blaster Null Kronos at 25km. You can check the EFT dps graph to confirm numbers. Standard Antimater Rails out DPS's the Javelin Rails at 60km.
Well, I had to download Pyfa to confirm my own EFT numbers and *my* numbers disagree with yours quite substancially, probably because you used a slightly gimped blaster fitting - ie only 3 mag stabs.
Please compare your DPS at range against this one:
[Kronos, blaster pimp fit null] Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Core B-Type Large Armor Repairer Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Bastion Module I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Warden II x2 Hobgoblin II x5 Salvage Drone I x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Cap Booster 800 x15
I also usually used level 5 implants for large hybrid turret damage, ROF and falloff if that is of any relevance. I also ran exact same fitting with rails and see no real point in fitting less than 4 mag stabs.
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Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
93
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Posted - 2017.01.27 18:45:01 -
[30] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Inir Ishtori wrote: - In certain missions you can place your ship on top of spawns and keep blasting at 1400-1600 dps. In most missions I rarely sit farther away than 40 kms from my targets.
Yes, if you can position yourself there (my personal best tick: 25mil after particular mission of Amarr Epic Arc when doing exactly that). On the other hand in certain missions you have quite spaced spawns forcing you either to fit propulsion or to perform double-MJD trick.
You can also just aggro the entire pocket while you MWD/MJD to the most convenient spot. The premier example is Angel Pirate Invasion, where you don't even usually have to move at all and can fit 3rd TC instead of a prop mod. 2-3 ships can get stuck on geometry though and you might have to MJD just at 0-5 km on them. First pocket of The Assault (Serpentis) is similar.
Quote: - Faction AM ammo costs a lot more than Null or Void.
This argument is null and void, pun intended. First off, this cost is not that higher, if at all. And secondly it is quickly recouped esp. considering ammo conservation bonus of Marauders.[/quote]
Well I checked the prices over Eve Market yesterday, faction AM is 4 times as expensive as Null, seems quite substancial. If you do not go for (mostly) full clears, less so - that we can agree on. |
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