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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.24 06:37:00 -
[1]
I was listening to the Voice Chat Dev Blog and they mentioned some of their views on how "Heat" will work in game. The upshot was they viewed Heat as a method to possibly "overpower" a mod to do more damage but cause the mod itself to take damage.
Sounds cool but I am curious on how the community views this. In particular thinking on it made me worry about how this would enable suicide gankers. Essentially being able to overpower your offense lowers the bar on what it takes to drop another ship in a suicide gank. When you know your ship is going to get CONCORDed in short order overpowering your guns is not a concern.
I am not here to whine about suicide gankers. This is part of the game and should remain as a possibility. But then I also remember the old days of Cruise Missile Kestrels which were such a low cost option for a suicide gank that they got (rightfully) nerfed. There needs to be a balance in the cost/benefit calc in going for a suicide gank and with Heat it sounds as if the option just got more attractive.
I do not know if overpowering defensive mods is also part of the possibilities of Heat. If so this may balance it although a suicide gank generally happens so fast not sure by the time the person getting attacked realizes they need to enable their defense that it'd do much good. And of course with Freighters there is no defense the player can engage.
Not sure if there are other ways to balance this and of course all this is speculation on our part anyway. Just wanted to get player thoughts on this.
(And just to be clear this is not a whine...just thoughts on a decent balance)
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.04.24 06:44:00 -
[2]
I've always wondered how heat would work with lag. I'm not sure how they intend to implement it, but if it's like "turn off the module before it overheats and explodes" and there's lag involved, it would just be annoying. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - ISD will never find me... In my signature! |
ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.24 06:45:00 -
[3]
also opend the door on a whole bunch of heat-based microwave weapons that target modules rather than hull.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.24 07:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: ry ry also opend the door on a whole bunch of heat-based microwave weapons that target modules rather than hull.
lol...
Well, it did not sound as if weapons targetted at you would affect your heat levels but of course could be an interesting notion for new mods down the road.
And while a game IRL aiming a microwave at a gun wouldn't cause much heat buildup. Induce a current maybe but mostly your microwave oven at home is tuned to heat water. Put a fork in your microwave and it will not come out hot (actually DO NOT do that as you can mess up your microwave or worse...just trust me it will not heat up much).
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Audemed
Wraiths Reborn Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.24 07:32:00 -
[5]
Microwave? Zomg, amarr might be useful! ------ Currently stationed in Iraq, 190 days left to go!
PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login.
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Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2007.04.24 07:37:00 -
[6]
I hear "Heat" will be another "gimmick" that won't add any real "depth" to the game.
Yay, I can make my guns get hot. All of EVE's many gameplay problems are solved now.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.24 07:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Audemed Microwave? Zomg, amarr might be useful!
Sshhhhhhh-hhhhh! We use the silent whining tactic, not the gallente drone style
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happomaagi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.24 07:43:00 -
[8]
Mechwarrior! Gigantic flamethrowers for chrismas!
In my opinion its too early to worry about this because we dont really know how it will be implemented.
I have the impression that you can suicide gank a hauler with just two cruisers or destroyers anyway, probably less. So if the heat thingy will be in such a balance that it wont screw normal combat, i dont think it will tip the scales in suicide ganking either. Then again, as you said, suiciding is a whole different matter.
But as i cant know yet, i choose not to worry :)
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.24 09:06:00 -
[9]
I wouldn't be worried about suicide gankers using heat as this seems to be a minor feature for T2 but major feature for T3 modules.
Now if you bring out a Kestrel with T3 launchers and T3 BCU's for a suicide job, well then you better get some decent loot.
On the other hand with heat the ship you are attacking might divert all his heat to the defensive modules and you will still die to concord before he pop.
Heat has some great potential, can't wait to try it out tbh.
We're sorry, something happened.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.24 09:08:00 -
[10]
Uuuuuh! Flamethrowers+cloak=Ilwrath avenger!!
Also when talking about suiciding...where's my Shofixti Glory Device!?
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.24 09:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Uuuuuh! Flamethrowers+cloak=Ilwrath avenger!!
Also when talking about suiciding...where's my Shofixti Glory Device!?
great. now we feel marginally geekier for knowing what you're on about. :(
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Professional Troll
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Posted - 2007.04.24 09:50:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Professional Troll on 24/04/2007 09:50:07
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h And while a game IRL aiming a microwave at a gun wouldn't cause much heat buildup. Induce a current maybe but mostly your microwave oven at home is tuned to heat water. Put a fork in your microwave and it will not come out hot (actually DO NOT do that as you can mess up your microwave or worse...just trust me it will not heat up much).
Place a steel spoon in a 1,000 watt microwave for 60 secoonds (make sure it doesn't contact any of the metal inside the microwave) and it will come out at over 100¦ celcius. Hit a steel spoon with a 250,000 watt microwave beam (the civilian gattling laser likely uses more than 250,000 watts) and it will melt in less than 10 seconds. The frequency that microwave ovens operate at is the most efficient at stimulatin water particles, but it is not restricted to water particles. Almost forgot, no proof, no truth.
Of course "heat" looks to be more a term for the miscelaneous wear and tear on modules rather than actual heat build-up.
Your toys suck! |T|R|O|L|L|I|N|G| My anti-drug.
Because CCP won't let me be an attention ***** any more and I don't want to become a ***** head . |
Lilou Dallas
Knights of Atlantis Dark Synergy
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Posted - 2007.04.24 10:39:00 -
[13]
Would mods actually be destroyed by the 'heat' or would it not be better to limit them to deactivate at 25% health or an acceptable level.
Meaning that if you needed to heat your modules in an unexpected attack (for example) that you wouldn't result in a loss of your seriously expensive faction/t2 modules.
What do people think about this idea?
Lil
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A
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Posted - 2007.04.24 10:52:00 -
[14]
The latest issue of E-ON had a massive article on HEAT that was very interesting... Buy it and read it now!
</plug>
Anyway, the article talks about how HEAT is mainly for defensive capabilities, where if you're going to die, you may as well overpower your rep and your MWD for a few cycles to see if you can get the rest of your ship out alive, even if it does mean losing a t2 MWD and t2 MAR if you get your Astarte out, then it's a massive bonus!
The main thing that bothers me in the article in E-ON (and consequently Tuxford's and Hammerhead's opinions and future plans for EVE and HEAT) is where they talk about plates and extenders getting new attributes under heat. The example they use is that an armour plate can gain a new resistance for a certain situation. Hold on a second... The only ships you know what damage you're going to get hit by are Amarr ships... So you jump through a gate and there's a Raven there... You set your plate to more armour using HEAT, not enough armour... Pop! So there's a Geddon there instad... You set all your plates to extra EM resist, your reps to overcharge, and your EANMs to max EM resist, the Geddon does no damage to you, and you get away scott free!
I just have to say, if these plans come in to fruition, you'd best release explosive crystals for Amarr spec characters, or that's the death of Amarr altogether.
Killing With Ease
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Lake
The Praxis Initiative FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:10:00 -
[15]
Module damage has been present in EVE since, well, atleast beta. In fact modules used to get damaged all the time and it was kind've a pain. I don't remember that much discussion about whatever we called "heat" back then, but subsystem targeting was always bandied about a great deal.
The reason I lump them together is that both are additional levels of complexity to add to combat that give it more depth and give you more options and more decisions. But they've both been held back because combat is still too fast.
I don't think we'll see either get very interesting until things are slowed down quite a bit more significantly than they already have been. The obvious way to slow things down is adding loads more hit points (shield, armor, hull and capacitor).
But you run in to issues with sustainable unbreakable tanks. I think the obvious way to resolve that is a very moderate nerf to shield recharge and capacitor recharge but switching them to a rate based system rather than a total-time based system. The passive-tank Drake is a good example of what happens when you push that too far and a hint of how ridiculous things would get if something like a 2x or 10x increase in hit/capacitor points was made.
And it's not the end of the world if two battleships can't kill each other. None of the capital ships can solo each other these days anyways. Battleships seem wholly un-massive right now and a significant HP boost could do a great deal to resolve that.
Right now most battles are over very quickly and unless you were right there you've missed it. But the other day we got word that a friendly carrier, actually 3 carriers and a dreadnought, had been locked down by a small gang in a system more than a dozen jumps away. We rallied a fleet and flew there in time to save 2 of them. That was really fun (though, admittedly, they weren't my carriers lost, heh).
Extending PvP has all kinds of goodness if you can avoid a few pitfalls.
-- Lake, Founder of The Praxis Initiative |
Nicholas Barker
Caldari Black Bands Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:24:00 -
[16]
problem with extending combat is people will just use the extra time to call in more people to gank you, making guerilla operations even harder ------------------------------------- if i'm not posting about tactics or lag, don't take my posts seriously! |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Sheriff Jones great. now we feel marginally geekier for knowing what you're on about. :(
You -know- the glory device is something that should be implemented
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:37:00 -
[18]
def something that if can be given an advantage like overpowering your weapons - would only be able to be used to a small degree on t2 and to its full use on t3 when they have those
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Ogul
Caldari Evil Medical School
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Professional Troll
Place a steel spoon in a 1,000 watt microwave for 60 secoonds (make sure it doesn't contact any of the metal inside the microwave) and it will come out at over 100¦ celcius. Hit a steel spoon with a 250,000 watt microwave beam (the civilian gattling laser likely uses more than 250,000 watts) and it will melt in less than 10 seconds. The frequency that microwave ovens operate at is the most efficient at stimulatin water particles, but it is not restricted to water particles. Almost forgot, no proof, no truth.
Did you actually read the article you linked? The metal was not heated directly by microwaves, an additional medium was used to transfer the heat.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.24 13:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: Professional Troll
Place a steel spoon in a 1,000 watt microwave for 60 secoonds (make sure it doesn't contact any of the metal inside the microwave) and it will come out at over 100¦ celcius. Hit a steel spoon with a 250,000 watt microwave beam (the civilian gattling laser likely uses more than 250,000 watts) and it will melt in less than 10 seconds. The frequency that microwave ovens operate at is the most efficient at stimulatin water particles, but it is not restricted to water particles. Almost forgot, no proof, no truth.
Did you actually read the article you linked? The metal was not heated directly by microwaves, an additional medium was used to transfer the heat.
Aww...just beat me to it (I just woke up and read the post and then the article).
The article mentions that metal reflects microwaves so they use silicon carbide which absorbs micrwaves and converts them into heat which then melts the metal.
I imagine if you pointed a million watt maser at anything you'll get some interesting results and probably destructive ones but still, microwaves aren't a very good method of heating metal.
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Mr Li
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Posted - 2007.04.24 13:14:00 -
[21]
sounds Like not only can you 'overclock' a module creating heat, but an enemy weapon system will also create heat. Logically, Amarr would add more heat than any other race with lasers so I can see this as a boost even if one could increase the EM resist on an EANM. That EANM is doomed to live a short life against lasers it seems.
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Teron D'Amun
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.04.24 13:19:00 -
[22]
and the next patch after introducing 'heat' will feature coolant modules and fans for your convenience imagine amarr ships with propellers! weeeeeeeeeee
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.24 13:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana On the other hand with heat the ship you are attacking might divert all his heat to the defensive modules and you will still die to concord before he pop.
My issue is more that a suicide gank happens very, very fast. Essentially the attacker is popping you in 1-3 volleys. By the time you realize you are being attacked, engage your defenses and overpower them the deed is done anyway (heck, an armor rep takes 12 seconds before it actually adds HP back to your ship...you are probably dead already or near enough). The ganker however can gain the bonuses to their weapons ahead of time.
Nother poster mentioned Heat might be defensive only and not apply to weapons. If so then no issue with what I am on about.
As Lake mentioned increasing combat times would help a lot but then if combat times were increased significantly that would end suicide ganking right there. Personally I wouldn't miss suiciders (never had it happen to me but not a fan of it) but something to consider.
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Harisdrop
Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance
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Posted - 2007.04.24 13:25:00 -
[24]
I want suicide fighters. When they warp off and follow a target. Allow them to hit dual MWD and crash into thier target and explode worthy of a good fight.
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Slate Fistcrunch
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2007.04.24 13:53:00 -
[25]
I have serious doubts heat will make the game better as well. Before they came out, I was hoping rigs would add a tactical element to the game or be like wildcards that would drastically change an aspect about the ship such as removing the current bonuses and replacing them with something completely different. Instead we just got multipurpose module slots that did the same thing as modules do. T3 modules would've had the same effect without causing us to train as many skills (salvaging) and tying up so many research slots (rig bpos).
Adding more complexity does not make eve better. Just cause an idea is cool, doesn't mean it's going to really add anything to the game. I can't see how heat is going to add to the game. Seems to me like it will just be another button you always hit before battle (if heat overloading isn't very risky) or something you ignore 95% of the time (if heat overloading is extremely risky).
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.04.24 14:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch I have serious doubts heat will make the game better as well. Before they came out, I was hoping rigs would add a tactical element to the game or be like wildcards that would drastically change an aspect about the ship such as removing the current bonuses and replacing them with something completely different. Instead we just got multipurpose module slots that did the same thing as modules do. T3 modules would've had the same effect without causing us to train as many skills (salvaging) and tying up so many research slots (rig bpos).
Adding more complexity does not make eve better. Just cause an idea is cool, doesn't mean it's going to really add anything to the game. I can't see how heat is going to add to the game. Seems to me like it will just be another button you always hit before battle (if heat overloading isn't very risky) or something you ignore 95% of the time (if heat overloading is extremely risky).
/signed. Especially your rig comments.
Subsystem Targeting might be a cool thing(tm). But I don't exactly see how heat would make things much more interresting either. As you say, just another thing you routinely press or not, and a source of frustration if it lags. --
CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks. |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.04.24 14:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch I have serious doubts heat will make the game better as well. Before they came out, I was hoping rigs would add a tactical element to the game or be like wildcards that would drastically change an aspect about the ship such as removing the current bonuses and replacing them with something completely different. Instead we just got multipurpose module slots that did the same thing as modules do. T3 modules would've had the same effect without causing us to train as many skills (salvaging) and tying up so many research slots (rig bpos).
Adding more complexity does not make eve better. Just cause an idea is cool, doesn't mean it's going to really add anything to the game. I can't see how heat is going to add to the game. Seems to me like it will just be another button you always hit before battle (if heat overloading isn't very risky) or something you ignore 95% of the time (if heat overloading is extremely risky).
good point
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Sieges
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Posted - 2007.04.24 14:41:00 -
[28]
I am not real excited about Heat being added. If they only applied it to Tech II and Tech III, then that would be good.
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