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Olleg
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2017.02.08 04:55:40 -
[1] - Quote
As I see EVE is still invaded by Suicide Gankers. Developers do nothing because this is not conflict with game mechanic. But, lets look from other side. There are NPC empires. And there are constantly repeated crime. What will do a real empire in this case? It will change law. What can be changed? For instance. If someone blow property of other player in empire space he will lost not only security standing, but also he will owe money to the property owner. And before he return the dept he will wear status "outlaw". This will not give problem in case of engaging by mistake, on one hand, but on other professional suicide gankers will get feeling of real outlaw and civil force will have fair chance to protect honest traders. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11500
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Posted - 2017.02.08 05:25:55 -
[2] - Quote
Dude... EVE is a dystopia.
As in... everything is "dysfunctional" on some level.
And the DEVs made it that way.
That is what makes the game interesting!
And there are plenty of ways people can protect their assets or screw up a gank attempt. It merely requires some degree of teamwork and mechanical knowhow (much the same way gankers use teamwork and mechanical knowhow).
How did you Veterans start?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3747
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Posted - 2017.02.08 06:38:56 -
[3] - Quote
time to toss lore back at you
capsuleers operate to a large extent outside of empire law.(turns out when you're immortal law enforcement stops working)
at the same time when you are immortal death is meaningless. This meant that wars between capsuleers threatened to be the end of everything. To prevent this CONCORD was created with the goal to ensure such conflicts would not put people in to great of risk near the highly populated areas of new eaden.
so you shoot another capsuleer in High sec without CONCORD approval CONCORD comes and blows you up so your fight has no risk of escalation. beyond that the Empires tend to do their best in order to just tip toe around us
BLOPS Hauler
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
392
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Posted - 2017.02.08 06:59:55 -
[4] - Quote
you also take standing losses with npc corps when shooting gankers in those corps
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1441
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Posted - 2017.02.08 09:05:10 -
[5] - Quote
Olleg wrote:But, lets look from other side. There are NPC empires. And there are constantly repeated crime. What will do a real empire in this case? It will change law. If you invoke NPC lore, please make sure to consider all of it and not mix it with the real world and how you think it should be. The big empires do not have much control over capsuleers. They are happy as long as the eggers keep blowing each other up, and don't get any ideas about ganging up against them, because that would end rather badly for the empires, considering that capsuleers are immortal, and have their own stations, regions, gigantic supercapital fleets.
In fact, the empires depend on the goodwill of the capsuleers by now. They would have been overrun by the Sansha hordes by now were there no Capsuleers to defend them. They even let capsuleers fight their wars for them after the Emergency Militia War Powers Act of 110YC. You can see what the Empires can do against the Capsuleers in missions, when you go up against groups of a couple dozen ships alone and blow them all up, or when you tank and destroy the groups of faction ships that will come after you if you enter their space with bad standing or bad security status.
And finally, why would the empires care? The crimes you are talking about are being comitted exclusively by capsuleers against capsuleers. You may be working for the Caldari State right now, but Capsuleers are fickle beings. At any moment you may decide to not work for the Caldari State anymore, and they can do nothing about it. You are a monster they created. A convenient tool to be used for as long as you let them use you at best, but you are not a valued citizen with state protected human rights for them. One could argue that you are not even human, because humans die when they are killed.
CONCORD and the Yulai Convention are there to enforce and define a set of basic rules, but everything beyond that is for capsuleers to sort out. So don't ask what the empires can do, ask what the capsuleers can do. And capsuleers are almost exclusively players. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18577
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Posted - 2017.02.08 09:41:38 -
[6] - Quote
NPC empires also allow billions of NPC pirates to infest their space so we the players can farm them. |
Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
21
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Posted - 2017.02.08 13:33:21 -
[7] - Quote
Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3087
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Posted - 2017.02.08 15:09:39 -
[8] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:NPC empires also allow billions of NPC pirates to infest their space so we the players can farm them.
If we are doing it cheaper than their own navy, lorewise, Caldari State would be justified in doing it. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3087
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Posted - 2017.02.08 15:20:17 -
[9] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Olleg wrote:But, lets look from other side. There are NPC empires. And there are constantly repeated crime. What will do a real empire in this case? It will change law. If you invoke NPC lore, please make sure to consider all of it and not mix it with the real world and how you think it should be. The big empires do not have much control over capsuleers. They are happy as long as the eggers keep blowing each other up, and don't get any ideas about ganging up against them, because that would end rather badly for the empires, considering that capsuleers are immortal, and have their own stations, regions, gigantic supercapital fleets. In fact, the empires depend on the goodwill of the capsuleers by now. They would have been overrun by the Sansha hordes by now were there no Capsuleers to defend them. They even let capsuleers fight their wars for them after the Emergency Militia War Powers Act of 110YC. You can see what the Empires can do against the Capsuleers in missions, when you go up against groups of a couple dozen ships alone and blow them all up, or when you tank and destroy the groups of faction ships that will come after you if you enter their space with bad standing or bad security status. And finally, why would the empires care? The crimes you are talking about are being comitted exclusively by capsuleers against capsuleers. You may be working for the Caldari State right now, but Capsuleers are fickle beings. At any moment you may decide to not work for the Caldari State anymore, and they can do nothing about it. You are a monster they created. A convenient tool to be used for as long as you let them use you at best, but you are not a valued citizen with state protected human rights for them. One could argue that you are not even human, because humans die when they are killed. CONCORD and the Yulai Convention are there to enforce and define a set of basic rules, but everything beyond that is for capsuleers to sort out. So don't ask what the empires can do, ask what the capsuleers can do. And capsuleers are almost exclusively players.
The empire themselves are hard to evaluate in term of power. While we kill some of their ship rather easily, Caldari state also have the "honor" of having found a way to utilize a DD on a CONCORD BS and kill it. They (Caldari state again) also have a good reason to let us freely do what we do if they profit from it in the end. Other empire could see it differently.
As for us taking over the universe, we still don't know how to create a single gate and CONCORD can still enforce traffic control for however long they want on gates even in deep null so our potential invasion would be rather limited if they decided be efficient about it.
Our pods also are made by one corp in one of the empire so that could be problematic.
Who control the pod entire architecture is truly who get's to say who's wrong or right in a war between capsulers and the empires. |
Cade Windstalker
742
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Posted - 2017.02.08 16:05:15 -
[10] - Quote
None of this is how Eve works.
For a start the Empires don't enforce laws between Capsuleers. CONCORD exists to punish Capsuleers in empire space but that's all they do, punish and make the disturbance stop, they don't issue fines. The Empire police enforce the few empire laws that do affect capsuleers, mostly regarding illegal goods like Slaves in Minmattar space.
None of what you've suggested is needed in the game, and you've provided no counter argument to show that it is. |
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Dr'Laaq
Blackguard Brigade Reserve
0
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Posted - 2017.02.08 17:44:57 -
[11] - Quote
Olleg wrote:As I see EVE is still invaded by Suicide Gankers. Developers do nothing because this is not conflict with game mechanic. But, lets look from other side. There are NPC empires. And there are constantly repeated crime. What will do a real empire in this case? It will change law. What can be changed? For instance. If someone blow property of other player in empire space he will lost not only security standing, but also he will owe money to the property owner. And before he return the dept he will wear status "outlaw". This will not give problem in case of engaging by mistake, on one hand, but on other professional suicide gankers will get feeling of real outlaw and civil force will have fair chance to protect honest traders.
Highsec should be safe, lowsec for those who's going to tip their toes into pvp and 0.0 space is where no one will hear you scream for help. That imo should be the case. When i jump into lowsec i also get the warning ( i reinstalled eve lately ) You are about to dive into 0.4 space, Concord can NOT guarantee your safety here.
Thus when i stay in highsec concord garantees my safety. Since recently i lost my freighter, full set of highgrades and my pod ofcourse.. thanks to 60 or 70 t1 destroyers.
There's NO way to counter, NO way to wardec them , well you can but NO use, because it are alts who just online when there's a target flying in HIGH SECURITY. <---- BIG JOKE.
The losses being made on their side , they even MAKE a profit with the insurrance. It's a WIN WIN for them.
Its just pure greefing. A few years ago i also lost twice many skillpoints because of diving back too fast into the fray to join my gang mates. This is now undone, why? because its not a really usefull game feature for the players. Bumping ships outside of pos shields? Its banned, but WHY? Its a game feature right? Not an expoit. They MADE it that way. But its banned, too many people complained because its gamebreaking.
This HIGHSEC ganking,, is gamebreaking. It's the last time ill rejoin EVE. This is not my game anymore if it has to be this way. Senior GMS told me that they are allready looking into this, but ganking in highsec, that means theres something wrong with it, imo they should reimburh the victims in the meantime or expect the playerbase getting smaller and smaller. It's bad for business, bad for the players.
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Dr'Laaq
Blackguard Brigade Reserve
0
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Posted - 2017.02.08 18:05:23 -
[12] - Quote
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing.
I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5902
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Posted - 2017.02.08 18:11:20 -
[13] - Quote
Olleg wrote:As I see EVE is still invaded by Suicide Gankers. Developers do nothing because this is not conflict with game mechanic. But, lets look from other side. There are NPC empires. And there are constantly repeated crime. What will do a real empire in this case? It will change law. What can be changed? For instance. If someone blow property of other player in empire space he will lost not only security standing, but also he will owe money to the property owner. And before he return the dept he will wear status "outlaw". This will not give problem in case of engaging by mistake, on one hand, but on other professional suicide gankers will get feeling of real outlaw and civil force will have fair chance to protect honest traders.
Yeah, so there are suicide gankers. Big deal. They impose consequences on the imprudent.
And how exactly do you think the law should be implemented? Oh yeah, by simply stopping ganking by some dumb mechanic like making it impossible to shoot at people in HS save in a war dec, duels, or who are criminals or have a suspect flag. Great. So much for the sandbox. Now we got BadsGäó telling everyone else how to sandbox.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5902
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Posted - 2017.02.08 18:14:11 -
[14] - Quote
Dr'Laaq wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing. I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down.
So don't be imprudent with it. It is just that simple.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
11506
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Posted - 2017.02.08 18:51:34 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:Thus when i stay in highsec concord garantees my safety. Since recently i lost my freighter, full set of highgrades and my pod ofcourse.. thanks to 60 or 70 t1 destroyers. Hyperbole aside,
Do you honestly expect that a player, who has taken no precautions and is working with no one, to be able to survive an attack from multiple players who are working together and have planned their attack well in advance?
And no where in the game does it say that CONCORD guarantees your safety. Quite the opposite in fact. Hell... most of the advice given to new players is "you are safe nowhere in this game, not even High-sec."
Quote:The losses being made on their side , they even MAKE a profit with the insurrance. It's a WIN WIN for them. Gankers do not get insurance.
They pay the full price of their ship and the modules on it... whether the gank is successful or not.
How did you Veterans start?
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3087
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Posted - 2017.02.08 18:54:05 -
[16] - Quote
Dr'Laaq wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing. I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down.
Was the blueprint a copy or a BPO?
You anti-tanked your freighter by using a nanofiber btw. |
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
455
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:17:23 -
[17] - Quote
Dr'Laaq wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing. I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down. If you had an escort, they would have next to no chance of killing you.
Two of you, vs ~70 of them and you'd win.
Easily.
And you claim freighter ganking has no counter?
<^.^> I'm a cat lol
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5902
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:24:30 -
[18] - Quote
Dr'Laaq wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing. I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down.
That you were ganked by Goons (in a 1.0 system no less) leads me to believe you were moving a T2 Blueprint Original. And you fit no tank, in fact, as was pointed out that nano reduced your tank.
If I am correct you were incredibly imprudent. You bear the bulk of the blame for that gank. Moving a T2 BPO was foolish. Using a freighter was foolish. Not tanking your freighter was foolish. Why did you not use a JF? You undock and jump to who knows which system, with a station, and dock up.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5902
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:25:18 -
[19] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Dr'Laaq wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing. I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down. Was the blueprint a copy or a BPO? You anti-tanked your freighter by using a nanofiber btw.
Goons don't usually gank for ***** and giggles, they do it for profit. My money is one a T2 BPO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3088
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:29:49 -
[20] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Dr'Laaq wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing. I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down. Was the blueprint a copy or a BPO? You anti-tanked your freighter by using a nanofiber btw. Goons don't usually gank for ***** and giggles, they do it for profit. My money is one a T2 BPO.
Especially in 1.0 sec systems.
The problem is not how easy it is to kill a freighter but why did OP use a Charon to haul a single blueprint. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5903
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:48:02 -
[21] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Dr'Laaq wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing. I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down. Was the blueprint a copy or a BPO? You anti-tanked your freighter by using a nanofiber btw. Goons don't usually gank for ***** and giggles, they do it for profit. My money is one a T2 BPO. Especially in 1.0 sec systems. The problem is not how easy it is to kill a freighter but why did OP use a Charon to haul a single blueprint.
Imprudence.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
3103
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:48:05 -
[22] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Quote:The losses being made on their side , they even MAKE a profit with the insurrance. It's a WIN WIN for them. Gankers do not get insurance. They pay the full price of their ship and the modules on it... whether the gank is successful or not. In fact, even though this gank was successful, the T2 BPO did not drop. That means almost 60 players, a significant number of which were flying Taloses and Stealth Bombers, lost at least a billion ISK worth of ships with nothing to show for it. So much for those claims ganking is risk free?
So OP, take solace in that fact. Even though you made a mistake and were out-played, the loot fairy had your back and stuck it to those nasty pirates who tried to hijack your BPO.
I see no feature or idea here that needs discussion though. Everything is working as intended. Perhaps this thread should be locked then?
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5903
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:50:57 -
[23] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Quote:The losses being made on their side , they even MAKE a profit with the insurrance. It's a WIN WIN for them. Gankers do not get insurance. They pay the full price of their ship and the modules on it... whether the gank is successful or not. In fact, even though this gank was successful, the T2 BPO did not drop. That means almost 60 players, a significant number of which were flying Taloses and Stealth Bombers, lost at least a billion ISK worth of ships with nothing to show for it. So much for those claims ganking is risk free?
Great point.
Quote:I see no feature or idea here that needs discussion though. Everything is working as intended. Perhaps this thread should be locked then?
Agreed. Duplicate thread that has been discussed to death.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5254
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:53:34 -
[24] - Quote
It was a BPO.
OP, why do you feel that you, moving solo and taking literally zero precautions of any description, should be immune to the 56 pilots on your mail, let alone the 70 you're claiming? There are people who move freighters through ganking hotspots literally every day and never lose them, because they fly sensibly. You did not fly sensibly, and paid the price. |
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy The Bastard Cartel
642
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Posted - 2017.02.09 11:18:04 -
[25] - Quote
Dr'Laaq wrote:
Thus when i stay in highsec concord garantees my safety.
CONCORD doesn't protect, CONCORD punish.
Quote: Since recently i lost my freighter, full set of highgrades and my pod ofcourse.. thanks to 60 or 70 t1 destroyers.
Logging off was a bad idea, that's a pod killer. You do realize that setting your ship - any ship - on Autopilot is a risk multiplier.
Well, you paid for your imprudence and/or laziness.
Join Celtic Anarchy!
Sneaky bastard.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3749
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Posted - 2017.02.09 13:41:57 -
[26] - Quote
Quote:Highsec should be safe,
Nope. The whole point of eve is that everywhere is a pvp zone. Read section 7 of the faq. Or the golden rules of eve. Or the falcon punch.
You are playing a pvp game. Get used to it or gtfo.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
27542
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Posted - 2017.02.09 14:02:57 -
[27] - Quote
Dr'Laaq wrote:Highsec should be safe It is, when you put some effort in to your game play.
Regardless of any effort that people do, or do not put in, highsec is safer than the other types of space in New Eden in terms of the penalties imposed for unsanctioned aggression, which are more than adequate at deterring the vast majority of highsec players from instigating it.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15143
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Posted - 2017.02.09 14:36:36 -
[28] - Quote
One of the things that it is important to do when you are a grown up is look at things you don't like, understand WHY you don't like them, and try to develop a more honest view of the situation by forcing yourself to see why others see the same thing as good (or at least ok).
Suicide ganking in EVE is one such thing. Personally, I don't care for the activity, I've participated in exactly one gank fleet with my corp mates and I don't find it to be fun (side note, I feel the same way about "Hot Dropping", sit on a bridging ship, jump when told to jump, hope to get on the killmail after you land and then warp off, not my idea of a good time). The activity does nothing for me so I don't do it..
But, I see that others enjoy it for various reasons.
And I see that it's within the well established rules of the game. AND i see that it has various positive benefits, not the least of which is that it creates a sense of dread (and thus awareness) in the part of EVE space where it's easy to totally zone out (zoning out is bad, it leads to boredom, and boredom is death for a video game). Suicide gankers give some people an Enemy, and those people NEED an enemy to stand against in order to enjoy anything.
And it gives players like me (who don't need an enemy but do like a challenge) something to gives value to our experience. Surviving and evading ganks is the mark of a good player and a pro-PVE jock.
The people like the OP who try to get CCP to change or remove suicide ganking don't really understand the benefits of the thing they want removed. In the same way that the people who whined for years about 'safety' didn't understand that danger was the thing drawing peopel to EVE. Notice how CCP increase the relative amount of safety we can attain in EVE, and how EVE was way more popular before they started doing that.
I suggest people stop thinking emotionally about suicide ganks and gankers and see the bigger picture. Suicide ganking (like hot dropping, awoxxing, scamming and all the rest) is a valuable part of this games Ecosystem, and something that mostly should not be screwed with. |
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy The Bastard Cartel
643
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Posted - 2017.02.09 15:34:48 -
[29] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:...AND i see that it has various positive benefits, not the least of which is that it creates a sense of dread (and thus awareness) in the part of EVE space where it's easy to totally zone out (zoning out is bad, it leads to boredom, and boredom is death for a video game). Suicide gankers give some people an Enemy, and those people NEED an enemy to stand against in order to enjoy anything.
And it gives players like me (who don't need an enemy but do like a challenge) something to gives value to our experience. Surviving and evading ganks is the mark of a good player and a pro-PVE jock.
Before I even started playing I actually read about EVE, and about pvp and Hisec ganking.
When I actually started playing, I was actually terrified of ganking and losing my ships/pods, ISKless that I was and every other player ship looked like a threat to me, especially since I didn't actually grasp exactly what was suicide ganking yet.
I adored that feeling of insecurity. And still do.
Join Celtic Anarchy!
Sneaky bastard.
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Siginek
BAND of MAGNUS CeskoSlovenska Aliance
23
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Posted - 2017.02.10 11:42:26 -
[30] - Quote
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now |
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