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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.28 20:38:42 -
[121] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too. What're you talking about? I guess if you want FW to support your Dreadnaught level lifestyle you're right. But the isk generation in FW is more than enough to support a FW lifestyle. Worst Case Isk Generation: Run two plexes at Tier 1 (20 minutes), get a faction frigate. That's all you need to participate in FW. I didn't read his comment as saying support players iskwise but rather give them something fun and somewhat meaningful to do without allot downtime waiting for fleets etc. Fighting in plexes is not fun?
I think just about anyone who has done it and like pvp in eve agrees it is fun. The problem is "and somewhat meaningful" bit. The problem is the overall sov mechanics are so bad very few care about who wins. That is why so many are getting the fun of fighting in plexes as pirates.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
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Posted - 2017.02.28 20:43:31 -
[122] - Quote
Most people i know who become pirates do so to participate in end game pvp but might occasionally go roaming in derp fleets but still often blobbed up. This is in comparison to the very few number of people i think i recall leaving FW to engage in the exact same scale of pvp they were doing while in FW.
Im not going to say i dont know of anyone who did this, but i cant recall off the top of my head. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
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Posted - 2017.02.28 20:49:31 -
[123] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too. What're you talking about? I guess if you want FW to support your Dreadnaught level lifestyle you're right. But the isk generation in FW is more than enough to support a FW lifestyle. Worst Case Isk Generation: Run two plexes at Tier 1 (20 minutes), get a faction frigate. That's all you need to participate in FW. I didn't read his comment as saying support players iskwise but rather give them something fun and somewhat meaningful to do without allot downtime waiting for fleets etc. Fighting in plexes is not fun? I think just about anyone who has done it and like pvp in eve agrees it is fun. The problem is "and somewhat meaningful" bit. The problem is the overall sov mechanics are so bad very few care about who wins. That is why so many are getting the fun of fighting in plexes as pirates. He said "limited playing time" which means he's never going to have the impact you say he wants because others who put more effort into FW will squash his hopes and dreams. That's just the way it is.
Your proposals don't solve that issue, and neither do Suitonia's.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.28 22:28:32 -
[124] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Most people i know who become pirates do so to participate in end game pvp but might occasionally go roaming in derp fleets but still often blobbed up. This is in comparison to the very few number of people i think i recall leaving FW to engage in the exact same scale of pvp they were doing while in FW.
Im not going to say i don't know of anyone who did this, but i cant recall off the top of my head.
Yeah there are a few, but they tend to be smaller groups. Black dragon fighting society (best corp name ever and likely others from chicagos south side would agree) and Black Rebel Rifter club were in the same alliance that I joined. Both great corps. I see lots of other pirate corps fighting in plexes as well. Its not like they form the corp in order to get pvp in plexes. Often Pirate corps don't have a set purpose like that - like null sec corps. They will just be a group of pvpers that want to do whatever. And one of the things is get fights in faction war plexes. Just looking at my killboard it seems about 1/3 of the fights I get in plexes are not from fw and probably 99% of my fights are in or around fw plexes. (at least the ones in low sec). Thats allot of pirates fighting in plexes.
The advantages of being neutral are 1)you don't have to mess around with docking rights and 2)you aren't blue to so many. 3) I would say you don't need to worrry about navies in high sec but generally as a pirate your sec status will too low to stay in high sec for very long anyway.
The disadvantages are 1)you don't get lp if you actually stay in the plex, 2)sometimes the militias won't bother fighting you if you can't take the plex anyway (at least in theory I tend to think if someone wants a fight they will come anyway), and 3) you won't have the wts to fight on gate and at stations without gate guns.
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Fighting in plexes is not fun? I think just about anyone who has done it and like pvp in eve agrees it is fun. The problem is "and somewhat meaningful" bit. The problem is the overall sov mechanics are so bad very few care about who wins. That is why so many are getting the fun of fighting in plexes as pirates. He said "limited playing time" which means he's never going to have the impact you say he wants because others who put more effort into FW will squash his hopes and dreams. That's just the way it is. Your proposals don't solve that issue, and neither do Suitonia's.
What people find meaningful will vary.
If sov warfare were something other than a rabbit race then more people might find doing their bit of capturing a few plexes per night as being somewhat meaningful. I know I would. And the proposals I support would achieve that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 16:12:02 -
[125] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
What people find meaningful will vary.
If sov warfare were something other than a rabbit race then more people might find doing their bit of capturing a few plexes per night as being somewhat meaningful. I know I would. And the proposals I support would achieve that.
(PvP'ers aren't going to chase farmers around the map in back end systems even if they know where they are.) |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
395
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 17:04:13 -
[126] - Quote
Yeap, they will sit docked in their home system instead. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
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Posted - 2017.03.01 18:01:04 -
[127] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: (PvP'ers aren't going to chase farmers around the map in back end systems even if they know where they are.)
I donGÇÖt think you are grasping the full systemic change this (combined with rollbacks) would have across the warzone.
If CCP gave us real time intel and rollbacks there would be no more rabbit plexing farmers. It would become so ineffective people would just stop rabbit plexing. And so when you went to a plex you would likely get combat not running away. That would mean more pvpers, join, rejoin, and stay in faction war. And that would in turn further drive out the rabbits.
People do fight in plexes throughout the warzone. Just because a pilot is not in one of the systems you consider a "home system" does not mean they are just a "farmer" (or what is more relevant here a GÇ£rabbit plexerGÇ¥).
Lots of players uses the plexes as a way to split blobs and get good fights. Not only faction war people who want to gain lp or sov. Like I said it seems at least 1/3 of the fights I get in and around plexes are with neutrals. (It may even be more than that) And I am usually not in the main pirate systems like ammamake, Tamma and old man star. Also I get allot of these fights with people outside the main faction war bases such as huola, Kamela, Sisiede, kourmonen and auga.
Why do I avoid these home base systems? Because they are very binary. Those systems are very much like null sec. Can you out escalate? If yes then you can stay. If not then you have nothing to do there. Where as when a system is not someoneGÇÖs base or they are in a smaller group you can manipulate the situation to get a fight. If they are with 4 people maybe only 2 can enter the type of plex I am in and I can get a fight. ThatGÇÖs much harder when everyone can just reship right there and enter the plex and keep it 4 to 1 or 8 vs 2 whatever.
I know you think solo or micro gang pvp is "niche" but I can assure you there are plenty of players who like it. You often have to go off beaten paths to get good fights though. Right now many players can get plex warfare by roaming systems and checking plexes. Yes allot of times they are rabbits and run ( currently that is the most efficient way to gain sov and to get lp ) but other times they will fight. If I see a system with allot in local and with allot of ships on dscan, but none in a plex I might go in a plex myself and I will often get a fight that way.
None of what I am saying is some big secret strategy to get fights, lots and lots of pvpers do the same thing whether they are in faction war or not.
Now lets think about how much more efficient this will be if instead of wandering around looking for pilots in plexes we had intel about where there are plexes being occupied. We could go directly to those systems closest to us. I would say that about 3/4s of the systems I go to have no one in a plex. PvPers would no longer have to spend time warping to those systems and could go directly to the ones that have people plexing. This would dramatically increase the efficiency of finding fights in plexes. It would also dramatically decrease the efficiency of trying to plex thinking you can run away from every fight. Players would be jumping in your plex several times more often than they do now forcing you to warp off and lose time regardless of rollbacks. Moreover if you see no one in your cluster of systems you know that when you go in a plex the entire enemy militia is going to get that intel. Faction bashing aside, I know there are plenty of pvpers in minmatar who will be en route to defend a plex. The days where you go in a plex and wonder if anyone even knows you are there will be gone. What does that mean? Well you know all those pvpers who left fw? Many will come back. That will mean more of these systems will get more busy and squeeze out the rabbits. Many of the pirates who do exactly what I describe will see that the real time intel is a significant advantage to being in faction war and they will join. Again putting even more pressure on the rabbits.
The more rapid response to plexes being captured combined with the increase in pvpers will completely change the game. Rabbit plexing will be a thing of the past.
I do agree with Crosi on one point, we do not need to make it so no one can ever earn an lp or vp by rabbit plexing. We just need to make it so it passes a certain threshold to where it is so much less efficient than fighting that it is no longer a viable way to go. At that point fw sov is no longer be the silly rabbit race we see now. It becomes a real war. And it then gains respect, and then it will gain players. All of this will definitely happen if ccp implements rollbacks and real time intel.
It may be that rollbacks alone could put us past the threshold. It may be that real time intel alone could do it. But that would depend on how they are implemented and I am not sure that one alone would be enough. Also I can not say I know exactly where that threshold is. But the combined decrease that rabbit plexing would suffer from a good real time intel tool and a decent rollback mechanic would almost certainly put it past that threshold.
As a neutral pvper I might not join faction war if only rollbacks were implemented. It might make more sense to keep the larger number of potential targets. However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
And btw the intel tool should not be something that you need to be docked to use. So I don't know why people are talking about staying docked waiting for a ping.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
641
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 18:18:34 -
[128] - Quote
Your proposed intel tool wouldn't stop existing deplexing or oplexing alts because it doesn't change the motivation (or lack there of) factor, so I think I would prefer CCP to spend limited dev resources on other things that I think would have a more positive impact.
Kicking rabbit plexers out of a system and keeping them out is easy, there just aren't a ton of people who want to do it.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 18:58:00 -
[129] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Your proposed intel tool wouldn't stop existing deplexing or oplexing alts because it doesn't change the motivation (or lack there of) factor, ....
It may not change the motivation of players but it would drastically change the effectiveness of alt rabbit plexing. Once the effectiveness of a behavior drops below a certain threshold the numbers of people doing it drop to where it has minimal effect. Those changes would accomplish that.
If you mean motivation of the pvpers then it is already there. If someone knows someone is in a plex they will warp there to get a fight. All of my fights in fw low sec are basically when that happens. It will only increase as that form of pvp becomes more and more efficient to get. And those 2 changes will make it much more efficient.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
641
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 19:08:18 -
[130] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Your proposed intel tool wouldn't stop existing deplexing or oplexing alts because it doesn't change the motivation (or lack there of) factor, .... It may not change the motivation of players but it would drastically change the effectiveness of alt rabbit plexing. Once the effectiveness of a behavior drops below a certain threshold the numbers of people doing it drop to where it has minimal effect. Those changes would accomplish that. If you mean motivation of the pvpers then it is already there. If someone knows someone is in a plex they will warp there to get a fight. All of my fights in fw low sec are basically when that happens. It will only increase as that form of pvp becomes more and more efficient to get. And those 2 changes will make it much more efficient.
Lets pick Teimo as an example:
You get an alert that someone is there plexing. You grab a ship and fly there. You slide the plex, they warp out to a different plex. This happens once or twice and then they tether or dock up in a citadel and wait for you to leave then go right back to plexing.
What exactly has changed in this scenario? There is almost always someone plexing in Teimo currently, and systems like it, you don't even need a notification.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 22:45:47 -
[131] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote: Lets pick Teimo as an example:
You get an alert that someone is there plexing. You grab a ship and fly there. You slide the plex, they warp out to a different plex. This happens once or twice and then they tether or dock up in a citadel and wait for you to leave then go right back to plexing.
What exactly has changed in this scenario? There is almost always someone plexing in Teimo currently, and systems like it, you don't even need a notification.
Ok good question. Its not going to change that overnight. But with time it will.
I think it is important to start out from the perspective of someone who is roaming looking for a fight. Right now when I roam I always have options. What route should I take GÇô should I check this system first before going down a different path? Etc. Now lets leave Teimo aside for now and just think about typical pvp routes you might take on a roam.
If I had easily accessible intel tool about plexes I would see ok this path has 4 wts and one friendly plexing in it 1 jump away where as the other paths seem to have very little. So I will go to where I see people plexing. Even if normally I would have taken the different route! Lots of other Pvpers will make that same decision. I also will tend not to go to systems or on routes where there are very few people plexing. Again lots of pvpers will do the same.
If your intel tells you there are more wts plexing in some of your pvp spots wouldnGÇÖt that bump up their priority? I know it would for me. I mean right now I am just roaming and dscanning the plexes in systems with people. As do many other pvpers.
Ok so then what? So then we would start to get more fights faster in plexes because the systems with people plexing take priority for a certain percent of low sec pvpers. So players who are looking for pvp will start to realize hey I can get some pvp faster if I use this intel. More players will use the intel tool. That means more players will get even more pvp using the intel. That means more pvpers will want to join the militia so they can use the intel etc. Pretty soon you will find systems that used to be plexed mainly by rabbits are getting lots of fights over those plexes. (again probably not teimo right away but many more systems than your main pvp hot spots)
As this grows with pvpers systems that used to medium hotspots for plex pvp will become very hot GÇô like home systems. So pvpers who want to avoid large groups will move to slightly quieter systems driving out rabbits from more systems. Before too long players won't even be able to rabbit plex Teimo.
Not only that but the game of fw sov itself will start to be seen as less of a rabbit plexing race and more of a legit pvp game. So people who thought the current rabbit plexing game is too horrible to even bother with might start to change their minds since it is becoming much more pvp fast paced and fun. New players will not become disgusted by it so fast. This will give fw sov more credibility and lead to more people giving it a try and staying longer. The importance of this aspect can not be overstated.
And this will continue to snowball to where we will have hundreds if not thousands of pvpers actively pursuing sov in the militias at any given time. Its very much a matter of tipping points and once that point is tipped where people see they get the best pvp the quickest by using the intel tool to find plexes to fight over it will snowball.
Rabbits will not be able to hide anymore and gain time on their plexes. So pvp corps that even currently want to gain sov outside their own system will have an easier time taking and keeping more systems. Also with rollbacks they will lose that time when they warp off. Its bad news all around for rabbits. More pvpers no hiding and rollbacks punishing them from running.
As the number of pvpers going directly to plexes grows the number of plexes rabbits can capture without interruption decreases. Rollbacks makes their work even less efficient. Soon people will be better off to just trying to fight GÇô or better off farming something else for isk. Either way fw sov gains because it is no longer a joke.
Also as to Teimo let me also say you know more about who is where in the different systems than your average militia. I didnGÇÖt know much about teimo because it is not on any of my typical routes. I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. And that will make the rabbits less and less efficient and make more and more time rollback. As the fights over plexes heat up more and more players will join and keep disturbing teimo rabbits. But really its that general push of pvp in plexes that will eventually make it so you can't rabbit plex even in teimo.
And BTW if we had an intel tool it wouldn't be for a pvper to actually capture plexes in Teimo since he would likely get more enemies warping in on him.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 00:09:06 -
[132] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. (You stated in past threads that you personally wouldn't go chasing rabbits like the ones found in Teimo.) |
Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
4
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Posted - 2017.03.02 01:24:27 -
[133] - Quote
Let's forget the rabbits for a moment.
What happens with people that they just want to do a few plexes but will pick up a fight if looks engagable. ( this is my tipical scenary when I'm running out of isk, I pick up a combat ship, and usually I don't plex in hotspots where defenders will chase me like hell )
The notification system will do lp farming quite more difficult, no iskis no pvp that's for sure.
Not all in plexes are for sov reasons, "combat-farming" is ok and desirable, much better than missions in terms of content.
Why not defenders just undock and "give a walk" over the systems they want to protect ?.
It is really so tiring to warp to the sun and scan a few plexes for targets if you see one wt in local.
Come on guys, what will be the next request, auto-warping at 10 and sliding and point-web automatically ?
OMG undock and fight, this game has already too much people just itting in the stations.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
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Posted - 2017.03.02 02:07:39 -
[134] - Quote
Perkutor Jakuard wrote:
The notification system will do lp farming quite more difficult....
...
Yes it will. That is the point.
Either you are ready to fight for sov or you are not. If you are not then you might want to run some fw missions or do one of a hundred of other pve isk farming activities eve has to offer. Once you are ready to actually fight for sov then come and fight for it.
EVE needs more meaningful pvp mechanics. We don't need to keep fw sov as yet another pve activity to be farmed.
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. (You stated in past threads that you personally wouldn't go chasing rabbits like the ones found in Teimo.)
Crosi and XG continuing to misquote and misrepresent everyone who disagrees with them.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 04:31:27 -
[135] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. (You stated in past threads that you personally wouldn't go chasing rabbits like the ones found in Teimo.) Crosi and XG continuing to misquote and misrepresent everyone who disagrees with them. So you are now committed to chasing rabbits if your proposed changes go through? |
Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
4
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Posted - 2017.03.02 05:54:56 -
[136] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. (You stated in past threads that you personally wouldn't go chasing rabbits like the ones found in Teimo.) Crosi and XG continuing to misquote and misrepresent everyone who disagrees with them. So you are now committed to chasing rabbits if your proposed changes go through?
He will chase them in the forum, and will type posts to talk about things that doesn't play really.
He doesn't play factional, and have 4 combats from 23th feb to today, why is talking here ?
He will change lp-isk mechanics which doens't affect because he does pvp in the forum not in the game.
Cerein, enroll factional or shut up. |
ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
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Posted - 2017.03.02 07:24:39 -
[137] - Quote
Cearain wrote: However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
so what stops the opposite side running alts to pop plex in every system they pass just to spam the living **** outa the intel tool i for one would use an alt just to do this an **** people off
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1382
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Posted - 2017.03.02 12:51:55 -
[138] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote: However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
so what stops the opposite side running alts to pop plex in every system they pass just to spam the living **** outa the intel tool i for one would use an alt just to do this an **** people off
Block the notification of course! But if we do that we're back to square one...
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 13:32:07 -
[139] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote: However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
so what stops the opposite side running alts to pop plex in every system they pass just to spam the living **** outa the intel tool i for one would use an alt just to do this an **** people off Block the notification of course! But if we do that we're back to square one...
The intel tool would give real time intel of where Plex timers are running, not just where someone opened a Plex. Popping a Plex would not do anything.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
279
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Posted - 2017.03.02 13:53:01 -
[140] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Yang Aurilen wrote:ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote: However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
so what stops the opposite side running alts to pop plex in every system they pass just to spam the living **** outa the intel tool i for one would use an alt just to do this an **** people off Block the notification of course! But if we do that we're back to square one... The intel tool would give real time intel of where Plex timers are running, not just where someone opened a Plex. Popping a Plex would not do anything.
I think you are pushing too hard on this particular idea Caerain, when there is wider support for a number of other iterations that could have significant impact. Even discarding the posters dead against your idea, I think there are more that would like to see other items higher on the list that this idea.
CCP need to look at conflict drivers and a better balance to the "be in militia / be outside militia" ratio - which should include long terms targets/rewards for Militiamen gone career, ie: - [some work on ranks and how they are achieved (once again another mechanism sourced LP farming) and what benefits to holding a higher rank]
Those posting that LP farmers and the sov effects of LP farmers do not have an impact on FW population are ignoring the wider picture and likely looking too much at themselves and not at the different types of player styles that FW has drawn.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
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Posted - 2017.03.02 14:58:11 -
[141] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: So you are now committed to chasing rabbits if your proposed changes go through?
I posted what would change above. I don't think I can make it any simpler. I am sorry you can't understand. BTW when you were claiming a close relationship between vp and pvp, I asked you if you all your plexing alts were in your main character's corp 2 times. You never answered. Are all your plexing alts in in Justified Chaos? My alts are not in JUSTK.
Now please either answer whether or not you will commit to chasing plexing rabbits if your proposals are implemented. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
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Posted - 2017.03.02 16:50:29 -
[142] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I think you are pushing too hard on this particular idea Caerain, when there is wider support for a number of other iterations that could have significant impact. GǪ.
CCP need to look at conflict drivers and a better balance to the "be in militia / be outside militia" ratio - which should include long terms targets/rewards for Militiamen gone career, ie: - [some work on ranks and how they are achieved (once again another mechanism sourced LP farming) and what benefits to holding a higher rank]
Those posting that LP farmers and the sov effects of LP farmers do not have an impact on FW population are ignoring the wider picture and likely looking too much at themselves and not at the different types of player styles that FW has drawn.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that as long as you win sov by running away, fw will remain a joke for the vast majority of people. There are only 2 proposals that address that and those are the only 2 proposals that will significantly change fw for the better. Those 2 changes are the only ones that actually make fighting for sov fun instead of "grunt work" or "soul crushing" as has been described in this very thread and hundreds of threads like it. If there are other changes that will change what I, Bienator II or so many others have repeatedly said is the underlying problem then I am happy to listen.
ItGÇÖs not like these 2 changes including the intel idea have not had decent support over the years. It has had as much support as just about any faction war idea. And that is why ccp has even promised to make both changes. But they dropped the ball. Now Fozzie in a podcast said he was aiming at fw plexxers with the navy maulus bonus.
But there are the same few people who have been in fw for a long time and never really understood why anyone would leave, shouting both proposals down and saying only people who like faction war enough to participate should have a voice. They are there with their plexing alts oblivious as to why people think what they have been doing so long is moronic. Those same few (I used to call XG crosi and alucard, mo larry and curly) are not going to keep me from expressing my own views. Yes they have posted quite a bit on these forums to preserve the system we now have. They will continue to deny that maybe they were wrong. They will refuse to admit that maybe people are leaving faction war because the basic sov mechanic where you win by running away sucks.
Have you read what they claim and looked at the data. What do you think of the data as to XGs claim that vp and pvp go hand in hand? More vets need to call these guys out as the same people who have argued extensively for the bad system we have now. I realize that may not come from the fw community for diplomatic reasons. But people just need to have some backbone and recognize the nonsense they spew for what it is. (This isnGÇÖt really directed at you as you have spoken out but I think your view that we can put this critical issue to one side and talk about minor tweaks is doing the same thing and expecting different results.)
If anyone has a legitimate question like the one above I will answer it. (alucard posted this question before and I gave him the same answer and he is almost always a troll, so I donGÇÖt think he was legitimately asking, but to the extent others might wonder I answered.)
I am sorry but I highly doubt adjusting anything with fw ranks is going bring more people into eve so long as the fw sov mechanic is junk. Getting a high rank playing a horrible game will never be something rational people care about. As far as rewards CCP has had the game give no consequences,(pre inferno) tons of consequences (inferno) and then moderate consequences (now) and none of this really changed the underlying problem.
Sure throwing lots of isk at fw will get more characters (likely alts) into faction war just like throwing lots of isk at incursions will get lots of characters running those. But that will not make eve as a whole any better.
As Bienator II pointed "none of the changes addressed the underlying issue that running away or hiding is LP efficient"
Its true many of the people who understand this is the underlying problem no longer do fw or frequent this forum, but sadly many of the trolls remain here. But don't confuse that with consensus of faction war players, let alone eve players.
As long as you win sov by running away fw will remain a joke for the vast majority of players. You can agree or disagree. But if you agree, then understand we need to change that. You might think the 2 changes I propose wonGÇÖt change it, thatGÇÖs fine. I gave my reasons and if anyone wants to discuss them I am open to that. But any changes that fail to deal with the bold sentence is ignoring the elephant in the room.
If ccp is going to give any time to faction war we all know this only happens a few times a decade. So we shouldnGÇÖt waste opportunities like we did in the past by asking them to polish a turd. LetGÇÖs get them to finally fix the real issue that has existed since fw came out.
X Gallentius wrote: My alts are not in JUSTK.
Now please either answer whether or not you will commit to chasing plexing rabbits if your proposals are implemented.
I am not surprised your plexing alts are in a different corp. You know we want to keep the fa+ºade that vp and pvp are related.
As to what I and others will do if we have a real time intel tool I posted my answer here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6855913#post6855913 and here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6855603#post6855603
If you read that as me saying I will just start chasing rabbits in Teimo, I canGÇÖt help you.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 16:54:37 -
[143] - Quote
Cearain wrote:.. multiple paragraphs of stuff... and then this....
If you read that as me saying I will just start chasing rabbits in Teimo, I canGÇÖt help you.
Give us the tl;dr version. Are you going to commit to chasing rabbits or not?
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ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 19:11:43 -
[144] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
ItGÇÖs not like these 2 changes including the intel idea have not had decent support over the years. It has had as much support as just about any faction war idea. And that is why ccp has even promised to make both changes. But they dropped the ball. Now Fozzie in a podcast said he was aiming at fw plexxers with the navy maulus bonus.
But there are the same few people who have been in fw for a long time and never really understood why anyone would leave, shouting both proposals down and saying only people who like faction war enough to participate should have a voice. They are there with their plexing alts oblivious as to why people think what they have been doing so long is moronic. Those same few (I used to call XG crosi and alucard, mo larry and curly) are not going to keep me from expressing my own views. Yes they have posted quite a bit on these forums to preserve the system we now have. They will continue to deny that maybe they were wrong. They will refuse to admit that maybe people are leaving faction war because the basic sov mechanic where you win by running away sucks.
.
You have the source for ccps promise of this exact method of intel? all i ever remember them saying is better intel tools and never elaborated on them.... CCP do this for every part of the game mention an idea so people are in awe of them at round tables like they are going to add super new features that never materialise
I do like the rollback idea i just think the realtime intel is ****
I didnt leave FW due to any mechanic the reason i left is that after 6 years service i wanted to do something different leaving SPDR was one of the hardest things id done (in Game) but i was given the opportunity to Join DHSJ and work with my longtime friend Pred Elite if this option hadnt arose i would still be were i was
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 20:32:20 -
[145] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote:
ItGÇÖs not like these 2 changes including the intel idea have not had decent support over the years. It has had as much support as just about any faction war idea. And that is why ccp has even promised to make both changes. But they dropped the ball. Now Fozzie in a podcast said he was aiming at fw plexxers with the navy maulus bonus.
But there are the same few people who have been in fw for a long time and never really understood why anyone would leave, shouting both proposals down and saying only people who like faction war enough to participate should have a voice. They are there with their plexing alts oblivious as to why people think what they have been doing so long is moronic. Those same few (I used to call XG crosi and alucard, mo larry and curly) are not going to keep me from expressing my own views. Yes they have posted quite a bit on these forums to preserve the system we now have. They will continue to deny that maybe they were wrong. They will refuse to admit that maybe people are leaving faction war because the basic sov mechanic where you win by running away sucks.
.
You have the source for ccps promise of this exact method of intel? all i ever remember them saying is better intel tools and never elaborated on them.... CCP do this for every part of the game mention an idea so people are in awe of them at round tables like they are going to add super new features that never materialise
You are right they did not elaborate on what the intel tool would be. Nor did they gives specifics on the form of rollbacks they promised. But they said it was in response to player feedback on fw and I am not aware of any other intel tools being proposed for fw. I also am not proposing any specific type of intel tool other than it would let us know where and when complex timers are being run. The more accessible the better.
Everyone leaves fw for their own reasons. But one thing is clear. The fw sov system is keeping very few of them. Plenty of people join ready to get sov for their faction. Then they find out how most sov is won and quickly lose interest. IMO it could and should be a huge draw for eve and CCP is not coming close to achieving its potential.
I tended to fly solo but Pred was always good guy and fc to fly with when he was in amarr. I can see wanting to be in a corp with him.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 21:00:51 -
[146] - Quote
Cearain wrote:ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote:
ItGÇÖs not like these 2 changes including the intel idea have not had decent support over the years. It has had as much support as just about any faction war idea. And that is why ccp has even promised to make both changes. But they dropped the ball. Now Fozzie in a podcast said he was aiming at fw plexxers with the navy maulus bonus.
But there are the same few people who have been in fw for a long time and never really understood why anyone would leave, shouting both proposals down and saying only people who like faction war enough to participate should have a voice. They are there with their plexing alts oblivious as to why people think what they have been doing so long is moronic. Those same few (I used to call XG crosi and alucard, mo larry and curly) are not going to keep me from expressing my own views. Yes they have posted quite a bit on these forums to preserve the system we now have. They will continue to deny that maybe they were wrong. They will refuse to admit that maybe people are leaving faction war because the basic sov mechanic where you win by running away sucks.
.
You have the source for ccps promise of this exact method of intel? all i ever remember them saying is better intel tools and never elaborated on them.... CCP do this for every part of the game mention an idea so people are in awe of them at round tables like they are going to add super new features that never materialise You are right they did not elaborate on what the intel tool would be. Nor did they gives specifics on the form of rollbacks they promised. But they said it was in response to player feedback on fw and I am not aware of any other intel tools being proposed for fw. I also am not proposing any specific type of intel tool other than it would let us know where and when complex timers are being run. The more accessible the better. Everyone leaves fw for their own reasons. But one thing is clear. The fw sov system is keeping very few of them. Plenty of people join ready to get sov for their faction. Then they find out how most sov is won and quickly lose interest. IMO it could and should be a huge draw for eve and CCP is not coming close to achieving its potential. I tended to fly solo but Pred was always good guy and fc to fly with when he was in amarr. I can see wanting to be in a corp with him. X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:.. multiple paragraphs of stuff... and then this....
If you read that as me saying I will just start chasing rabbits in Teimo, I canGÇÖt help you.
Give us the tl;dr version. Are you going to commit to chasing rabbits or not? Who is "us"? You seem to be the only interested in knowing if I will chase rabbits. I will continue to operate as I do now only much more efficiently. That is if I see someone in a plex that is in my engagement envelope I will go in to fight them. If they warp out I might give a chase to another plex or something 1-3 times. But I do not go chasing them system to system. Sometimes I hang out in the system or plex to see if they have friends etc. Thats what I do and that is what I will likely continue to do. If you think that is "chasing rabbits" then yes I will chase rabbits - Just like I do now. The point is everyone who does what I do - finding fights in plexes - would simply be more efficient at it and that would mean rabbits need to warp out more often. This reduces their efficiency. The rollbacks will further reduce their efficiency. And if ccp continues to tweak the intel and the rollbacks rabbits can be a thing of the past. I mean if we take the most extreme rollback where you lose all your time every time you warp out then can you see how that would end rabbit plexing? The intel will allow us to eliminate rabbits with a less draconian rollback. I think ccp might start with something like a 3 minute deduction off the timer (capped at neutral) and then maybe a slow count back. That way if you have plexers who have 2 alts in different plexes in the same system then if they keep bouncing back and forth to their plexes then they will soon lose all their time. But whatever we can just tweak it as needed.
I aslked pages ago, how you expect intel of farmers in systems, that pvpers already know are haunted by famers, will incentivise pvpers to now go chase them. When they already know that farmers are there before any free intel.
I think XG was just trying to personalise that problem for you, to see if you perform the mental gymnastics to bridge your 'issue-solution-outcome' postulation here.
Im going to assume you cannot connect the dots of your argument on the bases of you getting suddenly defensive and accusing other people of dishonesty, instead of smughly explaining exactly why pvpers would suddenly want to chase farmers around in systems they dont and will continue not to care about. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 21:53:27 -
[147] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I think XG was just trying to personalise that problem for you, to see if you perform the mental gymnastics to bridge your 'issue-solution-outcome' postulation here.
Cearain has a problem with "us", so let's generalize to prove the point by opening up the question to everybody reading this thread.
Will any of you reading this thread commit to chasing rabbits if Cearain's proposals are implemented? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 22:56:16 -
[148] - Quote
Ill take it to a practical level.
Ive not undocked this character in months. If any of you are not already aware of the location of farmers in your locality. But if you were would like to chase them around systems that dont matter.. EVEmail me and ill give you their almost certain locations. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 02:14:14 -
[149] - Quote
Rollbacks and real time intel will work to eliminate or greatly reduce rabbits even if people won't "commit to chasing rabbits."
I think you will find that most people will use common sense and see that that letting pvpers know where plexes are being attacked will lead to more defenses of those complexes. Its not really that complicated. That this will make life harder on those who do not want combat should also not be so difficult to follow.
Im sorry you cant connect the dots. Despite my trying to explain it in the simplist terms possible in 2 different lengthy posts.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6855603#post6855603
and
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6855913#post6855913
I think you have a mental block.
Your corpmate doesn't have english as a first language and he somehow could see the obvious:
Perkutor Jakuard wrote: The notification system will do lp farming quite more difficult,
Maybe ask him if he is going to commit to chasing rabbits.
In any event I am sure he will fall in line when you tell him he is reaching the unpopular conclusion on this.
X Gallentius wrote:+1 It's amazing how members of JUSTK have the best insight into FW.
Perkutor Jakuard wrote:Clap Clap Clap.
It's amazing of how well X G, explained and knows what is the beuty of fw. :)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 02:24:10 -
[150] - Quote
Still waiting on anybody to commit to running rabbits in the new "Cearain FW".... |
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