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Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
162
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Posted - 2017.02.14 05:26:18 -
[1] - Quote
So it was brought up by Xenuria at the CSM, but the small cargo hold and general sluggishness of the Noctis has made it less and kless favored by players over deployable tractors and salvage destroyers.
Kyle also pointed out that the Noctis has not had an uptick in use in-between summits since its release.
So, here I am pondering: Would just giving the Noctis a salvage bay (think about the size of the Porpoise's ore hold) make it rise from the ashes?
If not, what do you think could be the Noctis' saving grace? |
Andrew Indy
Jedran Space Services
214
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Posted - 2017.02.14 05:42:10 -
[2] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
So, here I am pondering: Would just giving the Noctis a salvage bay (think about the size of the Porpoise's ore hold) make it rise from the ashes?
If not, what do you think could be the Noctis' saving grace?
I don't think the bay really matters, salvage is small and loot to for the most part. Hell you mentioned Salvage Dessies and they have smaller bays.
I think for the most part the tractor bonus is a lost cause, sure MTUs are slower but anything else is way more effort (even is you doubled or tripled the notics tractor bonus it would still be more effort)
For me (in WHs) I would like them to be faster, Nullifed and cloaky but that's a dream. At least then they would be good for salvaging in dangerous areas (currently using salvage T3).
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Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
162
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Posted - 2017.02.14 06:37:19 -
[3] - Quote
Personally I would like the Noctis to essentially have a crazy bonus to salvage drones' access difficulty (to reach tackled T2 salvagers' level at skill level 5) instead of salvager cycle time.
I mean the damn thing has a giant drone bay on the front of it for crying out loud! |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
395
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Posted - 2017.02.14 07:07:42 -
[4] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:Personally I would like the Noctis to essentially have a crazy bonus to salvage drones' access difficulty (to reach tackled T2 salvagers' level at skill level 5) instead of salvager cycle time.
I mean the damn thing has a giant drone bay on the front of it for crying out loud!
ill buy that for a dollar. I use my paladin, go in drop tractor and kill everything and when frigates are gone I use salvage drones to salvage everything.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
9
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Posted - 2017.02.14 08:01:57 -
[5] - Quote
Agondray wrote:Scuzzy Logic wrote:Personally I would like the Noctis to essentially have a crazy bonus to salvage drones' access difficulty (to reach tackled T2 salvagers' level at skill level 5) instead of salvager cycle time.
I mean the damn thing has a giant drone bay on the front of it for crying out loud! ill buy that for a dollar. I use my paladin, go in drop tractor and kill everything and when frigates are gone I use salvage drones to salvage everything.
Same here. Land in pocket, drop MTU, start killing. The moment I don't need my Hobgoblins out to kill small ships that are close, the Salvagers come out. Between the MTU and mostly killing stuff within 47k, by the time I clear the pocket there's typically only a one or two wrecks left to tractor in, and then I manually send a salvage drone to each remaining wreck.
The idea of going back to station, re-shipping to a Noctis, and flying back out to the mission, then warping to and clearing out multiple pockets and going back is just laughable. |
Do Little
Virgin Plc Evictus.
794
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Posted - 2017.02.14 09:23:28 -
[6] - Quote
Give the Noctis a hull bonus for scanning wrecks. Salvage is valuable these days and a lot of mission runners still prefer to blitz for bounties - having 1 specialized ship that can scan those wrecks should see more of that salvage make it to market.
A hull bonus for salvage drones that would allow salvaging T2 wrecks is also a good idea in my opinion. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5501
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Posted - 2017.02.14 09:36:31 -
[7] - Quote
Do Little wrote:Give the Noctis a hull bonus for scanning wrecks. Salvage is valuable these days and a lot of mission runners still prefer to blitz for bounties - having 1 specialized ship that can scan those wrecks should see more of that salvage make it to market.
A hull bonus for salvage drones that would allow salvaging T2 wrecks is also a good idea in my opinion. That's actually not a half bad idea. You could also give it a bonus to salvage drones - but I'm not sure it's really worthwhile (even with T2 salvage drones...). Maybe a +2 to warp core strength?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Huttan Funaila
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
385
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Posted - 2017.02.14 12:18:49 -
[8] - Quote
The Noctis still gets used. I make them and sell them reasonably quickly to newbees in our space (1-2 per week). Many folks combine a Noctis with an MTU. When the ratter gives the all-clear, the salvager warps in with an MTU, drops it and bookmarks it. Then after they've run out of MTUs, circle back around, scooping the loot and MTUs and with all salvagers in high slots, salvage away the now-empty wrecks. For a new player who can't fly a combat ship that can survive our local rats, this is a pretty decent source of income once they've upgraded from a salvaging destroyer.
When I'm helping clear things up, if I use an MTU to assist, I fit 5 salvagers and 3 tractors. When I'm not using an MTU (such as clearing up an ore anomaly), I use 5 tractors and 3 salvagers. I have salvaging V and Ore Industrial V (with 2x T2 salvaging rigs).
To fit in with the theme of this post, I would sure like the agility improved. |
Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
32
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Posted - 2017.02.14 13:55:31 -
[9] - Quote
100m3 is a TON of salvage. I didn't consider the Noctis much more than a really expensive salvage destroyer and I think that's still true, with salvaging V you're not losing any cargo by using the destroyer. My question would be, why don't we get rid of an 80mil salvaging hull entirely? |
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
81
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Posted - 2017.02.15 03:59:26 -
[10] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Do Little wrote:Give the Noctis a hull bonus for scanning wrecks. Salvage is valuable these days and a lot of mission runners still prefer to blitz for bounties - having 1 specialized ship that can scan those wrecks should see more of that salvage make it to market.
A hull bonus for salvage drones that would allow salvaging T2 wrecks is also a good idea in my opinion. That's actually not a half bad idea. You could also give it a bonus to salvage drones - but I'm not sure it's really worthwhile (even with T2 salvage drones...). Maybe a +2 to warp core strength?
But we have such ships scanning frigates they even have bonus for ... salvagers
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5549
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Posted - 2017.02.15 04:06:21 -
[11] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:But we have such ships scanning frigates they even have bonus for ... salvagers I think we were talking about how to make the Noctis great again...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
2561
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Posted - 2017.02.15 04:57:47 -
[12] - Quote
the noctis was an unneeded ship that players wanted so it got shoehorned in and well now players realize it is pretty useless. Kinda like how the whole wanting a bigger mining ship leads to lower ore prices and lower mining income (although imo is pretty awesome cuz who doesn't love cheap ships!!!)
I admit I'm being slightly unfair to the noctis, but well, perhaps the only thing more dull than endlessly shooting at NPCs is looting the wrecks of those npcs, thank goodness for MTUs as they auto loot wrecks in range. clicking on the can, pressing open waiting a tick to see whats in the can, looting the can and waiting a tick to loot, and then closing the wreck was awful.
perhaps if module tiericide was actually interesting and created mods worth using rather than nerfing all meta mods to mineral value? or would that just slightly delay the long run to mineral value? Almost all the meta mods were already at mineral value, aside from a few meta 4 that were awesome, and some meta 3 that had very high priced meta4s.
Bigger cargo on the noctis would be straight forward and easy. but these days I assume most looters/salvagers are newbies in null and the run to station before going to the next site isn't that big of an issue. Also there is a big enough lag between running and looting that an MTU can gobble it all up.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5556
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Posted - 2017.02.15 05:47:22 -
[13] - Quote
Chainsaw, I can't disagree with any of your points. Salvage has been literally nerfed into the ground to the point where you can make more mining. That speaks volumes...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
83
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Posted - 2017.02.15 13:38:27 -
[14] - Quote
Arthur, if i remember correct, you posted an idea about Noctis a few month ago. May be its time to renew the idea? |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1175
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 15:45:07 -
[15] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:But we have such ships scanning frigates they even have bonus for ... salvagers But such ships cannot scan for WRECKS and that was the fundamental point for the bonus to scanning was to allow it to scan wrecks.
In a typical moment where they allowed those with no brain cells to decide what would be best for the game CCP released the MTU and that is what killed the usefulness of the Noctis. On a side note, after the MTU's they turned this same group of brainless people free to mess up the game again and they unleashed the T3D class, which for all practical purposes made the entire AF class useless in the process.
The Nocis is a bit of an oddity. For those who use two characters one combat, one salvage and run them at the same time the Noctis is significantly faster than the MTU / salvage drone option. For those who only run one character I cannot see anyway to change the Noctis that would make it preferable to the MTU / salvage drone combo because no warping back to station to change ships.
What follows is not a unified idea on changes to the Noctis, it is simply a collection of ideas that have been discussed on the corp TS channel.
Range and speed bonus changed on the tractors from the current 60% to about 70% to 75%. With an all skills 5 pilot and T2 beams this would give the Noctis approximately the same range or slightly longer range than the MTU tractors. Most would be glad to give up some or all of the salvage beam bonus to get this.
Since it is a dedicated salvage vessel adding a more sophisticated drones control system to it that linked into the what the pilot was doing with the salvage beams. Essentially if you had a wreck targeted the drones would ignore it.
Better bonus to the drones so they have the same access chance as the T2 beams, and make that a role bonus please.
Decrease align time please, most people I talk to would gladly sacrifice some cargo space to get this.
Increase sensor strength, give it a bonus to targeting speed or bonus the use of Sebo, the lock times for frigate wrecks are stupid crazy slow even with a sebo and script. This is a salvage ship so there cannot be any worries about breaking game balance if this is done.
I like the idea of a bonus that allows the Noctis and the Noctis only to scan for wrecks both NPC and player. I would gladly sacrifice one of my high slots for this capability, although I cannot see how or why adding a 9th high slot that was dedicate to this role would break the game.
An alternative to the last would be to restrict the current high slots to tractor and salvage beams only then add a 9th high slot that could fit a probe launcher or a cov ops cloak. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2495
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Posted - 2017.02.15 16:31:49 -
[16] - Quote
The way to restore the noctis to a state of grace is two fold.
1. remove deployables that automate tractoring - if it's not worth your time, then leave the wrecks behind 2. perma ban lazy players that bring up ideas that automate the game (taking away interaction points, any sense of accomplishment and in general just dumbing down game play).
Yeah, I know, kind of harsh, but there isn't anything wrong with the noctis, it's the MTU that is the problem.
The wreck scanning bonus has merit, but also has problems. Making it the only ship that can scan wrecks sounds great, but it would just become a scanning platform that squad warps it's buddies and then cancels warp. Now I'm all for that, but the risk averse group of players that are rotting out the core of this game would be 'hair on fire' screaming about injustice and what not.
Sensor boost bonus???? NO ship in Eve should get this. I'm good with gate camping, but every gate camp in New Eden will instantly incorporate any ship that gets a sebo bonus into their numbers. Gate camps are in a decent place right now and really don't need that kind of help. You would just create a bigger version of the tackling venture. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5577
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 01:01:40 -
[17] - Quote
You're never going to see removal of the mobile tractor unit. It might get tweaked, but that's about it. And while the mobile tractor unit may have been the stake in the heart of the Noctis, it already had variousnails in its coffin in the form of a vulnerable role and the numerous salvage nerfs.
Truthfully, it you want to make the Noctis viable again you need to expand its role and turn it into a combat-salvager that can actually contribute to missions. Expand the number of slots, increase the tank, give it some drone bonuses and watch it carve out a niche again.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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erg cz
Broz With Froz Dot Dot Dot
549
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Posted - 2017.02.16 09:20:38 -
[18] - Quote
I used salvage destroyers + MTU for a long time. Now I have my first Noctis and man, you feel the difference. Wrecks are gone quicker, than I can lock them. Instead of sitting minutes or even tens of minutes in destroyer you can salvage the heap of wrecks in a matter of seconds or few minutes max. Difference is the max targets lock (against frigates with the same bonus for salvager) or the cargo + drones + salvage bonus.
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP for free!
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5590
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Posted - 2017.02.16 11:14:16 -
[19] - Quote
erg cz wrote:I used salvage destroyers + MTU for a long time. Now I have my first Noctis and man, you feel the difference. Wrecks are gone quicker, than I can lock them. Instead of sitting minutes or even tens of minutes in destroyer you can salvage the heap of wrecks in a matter of seconds or few minutes max. Difference is the max targets lock (against frigates with the same bonus for salvager) or the cargo + drones + salvage bonus. If you really want to be blown away - train into a Marauder sometime...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
39
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Posted - 2017.02.16 13:20:16 -
[20] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:The way to restore the noctis to a state of grace is two fold.
1. remove deployables that automate tractoring - if it's not worth your time, then leave the wrecks behind 2. perma ban lazy players that bring up ideas that automate the game (taking away interaction points, any sense of accomplishment and in general just dumbing down game play).
Yeah, I know, kind of harsh, but there isn't anything wrong with the noctis, it's the MTU that is the problem.
The wreck scanning bonus has merit, but also has problems. Making it the only ship that can scan wrecks sounds great, but it would just become a scanning platform that squad warps it's buddies and then cancels warp. Now I'm all for that, but the risk averse group of players that are rotting out the core of this game would be 'hair on fire' screaming about injustice and what not.
Sensor boost bonus???? NO ship in Eve should get this. I'm good with gate camping, but every gate camp in New Eden will instantly incorporate any ship that gets a sebo bonus into their numbers. Gate camps are in a decent place right now and really don't need that kind of help. You would just create a bigger version of the tackling venture.
I would always rather remove a redundant ship, than get rid of a phenomenal piece of equipment. The Noctis flat out doesn't accomplish anything more than a Marauder does in the field of a salvaging destroyer does after a quick dock. |
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1175
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 14:38:05 -
[21] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Sensor boost bonus???? NO ship in Eve should get this. I'm good with gate camping, but every gate camp in New Eden will instantly incorporate any ship that gets a sebo bonus into their numbers. Gate camps are in a decent place right now and really don't need that kind of help. You would just create a bigger version of the tackling venture. OK you got me scratching my head on this one. There are already insta lock ships in the game so how is adding a sebo bonus to the Noctis going to change anything about gate camps? But the real question is simple this do you really think people would take a sebo bonus-ed Noctis that still takes 5 to 8 seconds to lock a frigate when they could take an interceptor that takes 1 to 2 seconds to lock the same target? |
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2017.02.17 01:43:23 -
[22] - Quote
Most ppl sayin g that to go get noctis to salvage takes alot of time. Then why we dont give some warp speed and acceleration to Noctis? It also could use some agility too. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2504
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Posted - 2017.02.17 13:59:19 -
[23] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Sensor boost bonus???? NO ship in Eve should get this. I'm good with gate camping, but every gate camp in New Eden will instantly incorporate any ship that gets a sebo bonus into their numbers. Gate camps are in a decent place right now and really don't need that kind of help. You would just create a bigger version of the tackling venture. OK you got me scratching my head on this one. There are already insta lock ships in the game so how is adding a sebo bonus to the Noctis going to change anything about gate camps? But the real question is simple this do you really think people would take a sebo bonus-ed Noctis that still takes 5 to 8 seconds to lock a frigate when they could take an interceptor that takes 1 to 2 seconds to lock the same target?
I'll approach this from the other side, it may be a bit more sensible for you. This is a salvaging ship. Its design, role and intent is to lock on to space junk and process it. There is no need for quicker locking. That established lock time is factored into the game as part of the cost of doing business. Wrecks aren't going to get away. Have a little patience.
The MTU killed the noctis. The ship is fine and the deployable is an enabler for lazy folk. Surprise surprise, the lazy folk are now ignoring the benefit of the MTU (setting it as the new normal) and requesting that the noctis be incrementally 'improved' to make the game 'better'.
Here's how this plays out - You ninnies get your noctis upgrade so that it is again 'useful' in your eyes. For the 5 months after that everyone will be like 'CCP rocks, this change is great, life is good and so on' 5 months after that (once players settle in to the new norm) it will be "to the forums lads, the MTU is obsolete, it needs a T2 version that also salvages what it tractors". Skip ahead 3 years and it will be "to the forums lads, the MTU is obsolete, it needs a T3 version that warps to the next site when it's done" (because warping around picking up loot is just toooooo much of a time waster. 5 years ahead - looting takes too long, give marauders a space magic shipping bonus that just teleports loot back to my home station so I don't have to waste my valuable millennial minutes taking stuff back to station (this magic teleport feature should have a check box for 'process into minerals' button because we all agree that selecting and processing loot is boring and should be automated)
Fix the MTU (the actual problem with the noctis). You have a couple of options to correct the MTU.
1. Make it lootable by anyone. Make it a simple machine that doesn't have the ability to distinguish who is emptying it. 2. Make it into a mobile tractor uinit. Wrecks get tractored to, but it has no functionality as far as putting loot anywhere. Just a tractor unit and nothing more. The result would be all wrecks are pulled into it, but no loot is transferred into it. 3. Remove it from the game 4. Remove the uninteresting time waster (the collection and processing of loot/salvage) from the game, change rigs over to minerals for production and then delete MTU, noctis, salvagers, tractor beams and all the other boring stuff associated with loot accrual from the game.
(some of these are real proposals and some are cynical joking - I doubt you can sort them properly)
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Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
42
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Posted - 2017.02.17 15:03:54 -
[24] - Quote
I'm absolutely against changes to the MTU. They've made mission running and salvaging exceptionally efficient, and they shouldn't be removed for a ship that's already had its role filled admirably,
Another strong point, the Noctis is stupid expensive. A MTU costs a couple mil. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5615
|
Posted - 2017.02.17 16:03:52 -
[25] - Quote
I'm also against any changes to the MTU. Just as they found a new enhances role for the Orca and Rorqual, maybe they need to do the same for the Noctis.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2504
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Posted - 2017.02.17 16:57:16 -
[26] - Quote
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:I'm absolutely against changes to the MTU. They've made mission running and salvaging exceptionally efficient, and they shouldn't be removed for a ship that's already had its role filled admirably,
Another strong point, the Noctis is stupid expensive. A MTU costs a couple mil.
EDIT: 'Make everyone suffer so I can fly my overpriced ship' is not a convincing argument. I don't think this thread has proven that the Noctis is a necessary piece of equipment,
I'm assuming that when you say 'suffer' you in fact describing the literally unbearable task of locking a wreck, activating a tractor beam and waiting for it to be pulled into the noctis? It would be a new to me definition of the word, so I'd like to be clear as I expand my horizons to take in the length and breadth of 'suffering' as it applies to the human condition.
Did I summarize your summarization correctly?
Overpriced??? I purchase them in stacks of 5 because that's the practical thing to do when living in a wh. Things get blown up there. When compared to the loot they bring in to my corp - overpriced isn't a term I would use. From the wh perspective, its role hasn't been removed. I don't want to bore you with game play issues that don't really come up in HS, but a ship can warp to a site at range then warp directly onto an mtu - the same is not true for a ship. That adds a margin of safety and takes away an easy slam dunk warp in for pvp folks as far as loot collection in wh goes. Just a side note about wh pve - the loot IS the site. It's not some bothersome side note to whine about while blitzing level 4 missions.
If you consider the noctis over priced - get better at Eve.
Overall I'm not really passionate about the noctis. I don't spend much time pondering the MTU either. The OP introduced a problem statement and I provided some feedback. I'll give you some feedback - game changes to the noctis don't and shouldn't consider a price comparison between the ship and an MTU. If that's where you're coming from, go back to the beginning and start over with game balance and game play impact in mind in lieu of easier, more efficient (bigger wording for easier) and the few million isk difference between a noctis and an MTU. |
Wolfgang Jannesen
The Evesploratory Society
44
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Posted - 2017.02.17 17:32:07 -
[27] - Quote
Oh no, by suffer I mean removing a feature that's been added to make a ship more important. The MTU is a convenient way of grabbing all the wrecks, grabbing a Noctis to grab all your wrecks is a less convenient way. Making backwards progress to buff the Noctis doesn't make any sense.
If the Noctis has strong use in Wormholes then its role is apparent and nothing needs to get changed. That thing is several million beyond what I'll spend to salvage. |
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
84
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Posted - 2017.02.17 19:31:32 -
[28] - Quote
may be the Noctis problem is ships slot layout? what if CCP increase the number of middle and low slots? |
Tarn Kugisa
Deaf Eaters Shadow of xXDEATHXx
554
|
Posted - 2017.02.17 22:02:49 -
[29] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:Scuzzy Logic wrote:
So, here I am pondering: Would just giving the Noctis a salvage bay (think about the size of the Porpoise's ore hold) make it rise from the ashes?
If not, what do you think could be the Noctis' saving grace?
I don't think the bay really matters, salvage is small and loot to for the most part. Hell you mentioned Salvage Dessies and they have smaller bays. I think for the most part the tractor bonus is a lost cause, sure MTUs are slower but anything else is way more effort (even is you doubled or tripled the notics tractor bonus it would still be more effort) For me (in WHs) I would like them to be faster, Nullifed and cloaky but that's a dream. At least then they would be good for salvaging in dangerous areas (currently using salvage T3). I'd like to see a tractor module that acts like a MTU
Be polite.
Be efficient.
Have a plan to troll everyone you meet
--áKuroVolt
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
2116
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Posted - 2017.02.18 12:31:04 -
[30] - Quote
Here's a way to make the Noctis viable again......
Let it be the only ship that can salvage capitals (freighters, carriers, dreads, etc).
Titans would still be unsalvageable, of course.
CCP could introduce a Noctis-only salvager module to allow this to be done, or simply make the fitting requirements insane and give the Noctis huge bonuses to let it be able to fit said module.
Oh, and capital salvaging shouldn't be fast...say a cycle time of 5 minutes?
Slightly less with skills, of course, but no faster than 2.5 minutes with max skills/rigs/module bonuses.
Oh, and while salvaging caps it can't be repped/boosted/aided in any way at all, and can't move either.
While we are at it, bloom its sig as if its using a MWD as long at this capital salvager is being used.
Now push the button, Frank.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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